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So You Want to Be a Paramedic?

Get ready for low pay, long hours, rural life and high turnover on your team.

By Garrett Zehr, 5 Jun 2009, TheTyee.ca

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Paramedic Steve Stringfellow with stepdaughter Jazmyn.

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Thinking of driving an ambulance in British Columbia? Here's a checklist of what to expect.

You'll spend thousands of dollars on your training. Then there's a good chance you'll be required to start out in a rural corner of the province. Expect your job to be officially "part time" but you'll probably work far more hours every week. For many of those hours you'll be paid just above minimum wage, or even less. Way less. How about two dollars an hour for being on stand-by to rush off on a call the instant you're paged?

And if the life you are sent to save is down some twisty, poorly marked country road, don't expect fancy gear like a GPS system to help you find your way. Unless, perhaps, you want to pay for it yourself.

About the Paramedics Strike

The labour dispute between the Ambulance Paramedics of BC (CUPE 873) and the employer BC Ambulance Service began April 1.

The union represents 3,500 full-time and part-time paramedics from around the province.

Its contract demands include increased staffing levels, faster response times, a multi-year contract and wage parity with other emergency responders.

Paramedics are covered under an Essential Services Order, which requires levels to be maintained for all dispatch, emergency ambulance responses and non-emergency patient transfers.

Last month, the employer asked the Labour Relations Board to file the order with the Supreme Court of B.C., making it enforceable by law. Any paramedic disobeying the order can now be held in contempt of court.

The two parties have appointed Ministry of Health Associate Deputy Minister Stephen Brown and CUPE BC President Barry O'Neill to find common areas of interest to bring them back to the bargaining table.

On Tuesday, the union announced that contract negotiations are set to resume. It said the parties are close on many areas, but monetary issues have yet to be discussed.

BC Ambulance Service has offered a three per cent hike in a one-year deal. The union started out seeking a seven per cent wage hike every year for three years.

Two day of talks are scheduled to begin June 11.

That's the portrait of life as a young paramedic that emerges from interviews with a number of new and veteran paramedics around the province. It's a reality that deeply disappoints 23 year-old Steve Stringfellow, who started his paramedic career in Terrace three years ago after training in Kelowna.

"I moved up to Terrace and I found out it's not what I expected at all," says Stringfellow.

After finishing his six-month course, he was all ears when the B.C. Ambulance Service came to pitch its employment.

"They came and sold you a full-time paramedic job," says Stringfellow. "It sounded really good."

But his hopes of a permanent salary, regular hours, benefits and the tools to adequately perform his work quickly fizzled.

Instead, he is stuck with part-time status while putting in hours sometimes double or triple a regular 40-hour work week. Some shifts he gets paid only $10 an hour -- others only $2. He has no guaranteed number of shifts and his hopes of benefits are still a couple of years away.

The high turnover rate of his colleagues means he may be working with paramedics unfamiliar with remote areas, making his job more difficult and putting the patients under his care at risk.

But Stringfellow says he will stick it out because he's doing what he loves and has already invested a substantial amount of time and money into his career.

He's also invested more than two months on the picket lines. Stringfellow and his 3,500 colleagues around the province have been on strike since April 1, pressing for increased staffing levels, faster response times, a multi-year contract and wage parity with other emergency responders.

'You never know month to month'

Well over half of B.C.'s paramedic positions are part-time and because of union seniority rules, these are usually the only jobs available for new paramedics.

"If you're applying, you obviously need and want a job so you have to go where there's work," says Amy Chris, a nine-year veteran and the East and West Kootenays chief shop steward with CUPE 873, the union representing B.C.'s paramedics. Out of her 18 colleagues in Fernie, only the unit chief is full-time.

Each month she submits her availability and waits to find out her schedule, with no minimum or maximum guarantees.

"You never know from month to month how much you're going to be working," she says.

And unlike most employment, part-time status for a B.C. paramedic does not correlate to part-time hours.

"I do the 'part-time full-time' gig," says Stringfellow, explaining that his hours often far surpass full-time work, even though he is classified a part-timer.

This week he is scheduled for 113 hours, he says.

He has lucked out and is able to pick up a few shifts from absent full-time staff. But the majority of his work, like other part-timers, will be divided into stand-by shifts at his station and on-call hours where he carries a pager.

It's a standard shift set-up for rural and remote regions. Most stations rely on their part-time paramedics to be available on-call for long hours.

Waiting at the station

"In a two-week work period, I can work up to 110 hours on a pager," says John Togyi, a Vandherhoof-based paramedic and CUPE 873 regional vice-president. "In other stations, because they might have less staff or are only a call-out station, that could be double that," he says.

And while being on-call allows him to be home, Togyi says working a pager shift is a significant responsibility.

"You've got be within a reasonable response time of your station, so you're tied to that station," he says. "So going fishing isn't an option. You want to have a glass of wine? -- forget that," he says.

Along with no guarantee of hours, part-time paramedics also have no minimum salary. Compensation for part-timers is largely based on the time spent replying to calls. The rest of the time employees receive a small stipend.

For stand-by shifts where paramedics are based in the station, this amounts to a little more than the province's minimum wage.

"For $10 an hour we sit at the station and wait for a call to come in," says Chris.

On-call paramedics receive even less. "They're at home and they carry a pager and they do that for $2 an hour," she says.

It was this $2 stipend that created a small stir in the recent provincial election. Premier Gordon Campbell reportedly flipped a loonie at a striking paramedic in Vernon during a campaign stop.

According to the union, the paramedic replied, "Thanks a lot, that's half an hour's pay for me."

When stand-by and on-call paramedics do respond to calls, they are compensated for a minimum number of hours at a regular paramedic wage. For stand-by shifts this means at least three hours compensation per call, while on-call paramedics collect a minimum of four hours.

But for shifts that are often between 10 and 14 hours in length, it means that a full-time wage is only possible for a shift where multiple calls come in. Call volume varies greatly between regions, with rural and remote stations receiving substantially fewer calls than urban centres.

"Generally, I think we probably average about a call a shift," says Chris, referring to the Fernie station. And there are shifts where paramedics receive no more than their $10 or $2 per hour, she says. "It's not unusual for our crew members not to get a call."

Not enough to pay the babysitter

It's a similar situation for rural and remote stations throughout the North, says Togyi.

"We had a full weekend in Vanderhoof where we had one call in the 48-hour period," he says, adding that the call volume at Northern stations fluctuates greatly based on a number of factors, such as location and time of year.

"There will be days where you'll get called out in the morning at the start of your shift and you won't actually see your station until the end of the shift," he says. "But sometimes people can go a whole two weeks on a pager and not get a single call."

It's these shifts that pose the biggest challenge for part-timers relying on their paramedic job as their sole source of income.

As a union representative, Togyi says he often hears concerns from paramedics completing shifts where they only receive their stipend pay. One woman he spoke to recently from Chetwynd said she sometimes makes less money on a stand-by shift than she pays for her childcare.

"It costs her on a 10-hour dayshift $65 for daycare and that leaves $35 out of her pay left over," he says. On a day when she is with her pager, she could actually lose money, he adds.

He relates a similar story of a couple who are both paramedics in Hazelton. Their family cannot afford a babysitter when all they receive is stipend pay and so one partner works while they other takes care of their children.

Holding down two jobs

This lack of reliable income forces many paramedics to hold a second job. "I would say that 50 per cent of my crew does," says Togyi. In Fernie, the percentage of paramedics with a second job is even higher, says Chris.

It's a reality many rookies are forced to accept if they want to pay off their student debt. Paramedics are responsible for their own training costs and Stringfellow estimates he paid $13,000 for his six-month relocation to Kelowna for his training.

"I got out of school expecting to quickly pay back my schooling and that wasn't the case," he says.

Growing up in Houston, he gave up a higher-paying job at a mill to become a paramedic. "I took quite the pay cut to come to a position like this and I'm working a lot more hours to do it," he says.

The lack of job benefits also provides a significant challenge for rookie paramedics, he adds. "We don't have any benefits for the first six years."

High turnover increases risks

With irregular hours and pay, recruitment and retention at low call-volume stations is an ongoing concern.

"The rural and remote stations definitely have a harder time attracting and training staff just because the earning potential is so low," says Chris.

At her station in Fernie, she says many rookies request a transfer often within three to six months, shortly after their probation period is finished.

"We have a hard time keeping staff," says Chris. "Most of the staff we have that is not native to Fernie ends up moving on fairly quickly."

This high turnover rate is a concern not only for the paramedics but also for patient care, she says.

"Being in a remote area there's lots of logging roads and back roads and our call response area is so large that there are lots of places, especially popular local places, that go by local names and local landmarks," she says. "So if you're not from here or if you haven't been in Fernie or the Elk Valley for a while you might not know those locations."

Part of this problem could be solved, says Chris, if better navigational equipment were provided to paramedics.

"We would love to have GPS but BC Ambulance won't approve them unless we buy our own personal ones, which a lot of crew members have done."

Some stations in the North have resorted to fundraising for such equipment with golf tournaments, bake sales and letter-writing to local businesses, says Togyi, a situation he finds concerning.

"Why should we be providing the equipment the employer, in my opinion, should be required to supply?" he asks.

The lure of Alberta

Like in Fernie, keeping staff is a problem throughout much of the province, and the North is no exception, he says.

Many of the paramedics placed here soon try to transfer to higher call-volume stations where their earning potential is greater. But a significant number of new paramedics decide to pack up and leave the province altogether, he says.

"They're heading to Alberta where they're getting paid a full wage for the time they're sitting in their station."

He recently spoke with a paramedic instructor in Kelowna who said a large number of his students are pursuing this option. "50 per cent of his class is heading to Alberta," Togyi says.

It's a move that Stringfellow says he has also noticed with his peers.

"There are a lot of people contemplating it," he says. "I've even contemplated it myself."

But he says he has family commitments in B.C. and doesn't want to leave his home province.

He says he has also considered switching careers but wants to see a pay-off on his investment and he really enjoys doing what he does.

He's holding out hope that the strike will address at least some of the challenges paramedics face.

"The system is really bad and needs to be changed," he says.

'Get ambulance service right': MLA Macdonald

While the politicians largely stayed mum about the labour dispute during the election campaign, there is some indication the issues may now be getting some attention from Victoria.

"The government has a responsibility to get the ambulance service right," Norm Macdonald, NDP MLA for Columbia River-Revelstoke recently told the Revelstoke Times Review.

"The last paramedics' contract made significant changes to pay structures and educational opportunities which made the job of a rural paramedic much less appealing. In order to make a living, many rural paramedics are choosing to move to larger centres, leaving rural communities scrambling to fill the ranks," Macdonald said.

BC Ambulance Services declined to comment for this story. But after over two months of broken-off talks, there is recent indication that discussions between the striking parties could soon be progressing. On Tuesday, they announced they are close on a number of issues and will hold two days of talks beginning June 11.

Unless the entire system is fixed, Stringfellow is not very optimistic about the challenges facing part-time paramedics.

"I think the recruitment and retention is going to get worse and worse," he says. "People might think twice about becoming a paramedic."

After three years on the job, he has his own advice for young people considering his career path.

"I would recommend paramedicine to anyone because it's an awesome job," he says. "But I would not recommend anyone become a paramedic in B.C. under the current conditions."

Related Tyee stories:

[Tyee]

Garrett Zehr reports for The Tyee.

49 Comments:

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  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Like....Does Campbell Care?

    Quote:
    there is some indication the issues may now be getting some attention from Victoria

    He has his majority. And the strikers MUST provide essential services. Why not just grind them down through attrition, then gear up a beloved PPP.........?

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Garrett Zehr

    Quote:
    Get ready for low pay, long hours, rural life and high turnover on your team.

    Presumably, "low pay", "long hours", and "high turnover" are negative features of this calling.

    But "rural life"???!!!

    What exactly is this bias against living outside the lower mainland? That, Garrett, is as snotily snobby as Torontonians looking down their noses at TROC...........

  • David Beers

    2 years ago

    Administrator

    RickW

    I wrote the headline, so be mad at me, not Garrett. Nothing wrong with rural life -- if you choose it. But as the story makes clear, rookie paramedics get no choice, they must start out in rural areas. So, young people considering becoming a paramedic should know that and be prepared for that as they decide to go forward. Thus, the headline as I (and not Garrett) wrote it. If every rookie paramedic was forced to start out in Vancouver, I'd have written the headline this way

    Get ready for....city life...

    A lot of people wouldn't choose to live and work in Vancouver.

  • Mike67

    2 years ago

    Understanding the service

    What a ridiculously un-educated and biased article written for the Tyee by the ambulance union. From the narrative it would appear that the solution to the problem is to pay all these poor part-time staff increased wages, maybe convert them all to full time positions. Common sense seems to be absent - look at how fire service is provided in rural BC, "volunteer" firefighters are not even paid $2 an hour to carry their pagers!
    Do taxpayers really want to pay paramedics full time wags to sit in stations where "sometimes people can go a whole two weeks on a pager and not get a single call"
    Should new recruits have to do five years of rural/remote service to get full time jobs - no, that part of the system is wrong - but that is as much to do with the Union's "seniority" rules as it has to do with the ambulance service. Why not remove all rural ambulance stations from the seniority pool and allow competitive application for full time jobs.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    David Beers

    My apologies to Garrett then. But your explanation still makes rural life appear to be a hardship. If part of becoming a paramedic is a rural posting, so be it. RCMP rookies must "endure" this requirement, and I think that any trade or profession where the training is paid for by government (taxpayers) should have similar requirements.

    However, my sympathies lay with the paramedics, and, in disagreement with Mike67, if paramedics are considered an essential service, then they should be paid full time, even though

    Quote:
    "sometimes people can go a whole two weeks on a pager and not get a single call"

    Taxpayers can't have it both ways, where paramedics are available as needed, but locked in a virtual cloest when not needed.

  • Mike67

    2 years ago

    RickW logic

    Great logic Rick - please put up my provincial taxes 5% during a recession to pay paramedics to sit full-time in rural ambulance stations. What benefit are those paramedics now providing sat in those stations watching tv, surfing the internet, full time, waiting for the one call a week to come in, as opposed to working other jobs in the community like they do now and responding by pager. If we are going to pay all these paramedics full time wages, let's convert all the part-time volunteer fire fighters to full time as well - my municipal taxes aren't enough either!!!

  • Robin Hilderman

    2 years ago

    BC Ambulance

    As a paramedic for almost two decades now, I was thrilled to see this article. I only wish that one more comment was added regarding the $2.00 - $10.00 issue. Not only are these deplorable wages but they do not even count towards pensionable earnings.

    I would also like to point out that we are paged out far more then any rural fire department, so the comparison is ridiculously uninformed. For example in my community of Chetwynd we did 850 calls last year.

    Many of the professions that exist out there to take care of the public, such as RCMP, Doctors and Nurses. All of these professions are treated with respect and assigned a living wage, even if the people doing this job choose to live in and take care of communities that are considered rural. It is time for people to realize that each and every community of BC deserves qualified trained Paramedics who are able to respond to the needs of each member of the community that they work in, within a reasonable time with the skills necessary to provide the best outcome for their health care needs. Why is the employer able to say every person north of Vancouver is a second class citizen and worthy of a different standard of care.

    I do not wish to leave my community. I have lived here for 30 plus years and want to be able to take care of the emergency needs of the people living here. It should not be necessary to leave my community to achieve a fair living wage. It is tough economic times, but $2.00 or $10.00 an hour with no health care benefits for six years is ridiculous. We could all leave our jobs and work at positions that valued us with living wages, but then where would the people of BC be without the service we provide. Of 3600 members of the service, over 2000 of them make up Part-Time members. That means everything north of Vancouver needs our service. Each and everyone of us is only one unfortunate situation away from needing our skills.

    I hope that the people of BC take a moment to make a phone call or write a letter to their Mayor or MLA asking them to support our need for a fair living wage. It is ridiculous that we have to work a hundred plus hours a week to take care of our families.

  • Rhea

    2 years ago

    "Do taxpayers really want to

    "Do taxpayers really want to pay paramedics full time wags to sit in stations where "sometimes people can go a whole two weeks on a pager and not get a single call"

    Would you prefer that those stations not be staffed? It makes far more sense to staff them adequately, pay a living wage for the area, and have decent standard of care. Having demolished the hospitals, the Liberals seem bent on taking apart the rest of the health care system too.

    This is an essential service, and it needs to be treated like one.

  • Moonbug

    2 years ago

    Mike67 what is wrong with you?

    Paramedics perform an incredibly important service, and they are not volunteering - it is their job.

    Hotel clerks don't get paid based on how many people they check in. Often they are sitting at a desk all night and have next to nothing to do, yet they get at least the minimum wage.

    AND SO IT SHOULD BE. If you are working, whether it be on a pager or otherwise, you ought to get at least the minimum wage. 2/hr pager pay is crap. Anyone who thinks that crap pay is fair deserves to have the ambulance not come when they call it.

    These people are working hard saving lives, for crying out loud, and you would deny them the right to a steady wage so they could be sure of paying their rent and paying for a babysitting and getting groceries?

    What is wrong with you??

    As for your comment about taking the rural areas outside of the seniority pool - yeah great idea! Then there would be almost no paramedics at all in rural BC - with the pay what it is.

    People would probably be happy to stay in the rural areas if they could actually make a living at it.

  • Moonbug

    2 years ago

    Rhea

    "Would you prefer that those stations not be staffed?"

    His comment leads me to think he believes that rural people don't deserve the same level of service as urban people.

  • Paul9

    2 years ago

    CUPE RESPONSIBLE FOR $2.00

    Paramedics have only CUPE and its EDITED -- TYEE MODERATOR Strohmeier to blame for the $2/hour pager pay. The fact is, it was CUPE which negotiated with the EHSC for the $2 pager pay (which was instituted to cover the cost of the pager, not to pay paramedics). So, maybe you should ask your CUPE Reps. why they negotiated $2, and quit blaming everyone else.

  • alive

    2 years ago

    just asking

    Did Jim Pattison set up those working conditions?

  • The Blackbird

    2 years ago

    Ungrateful

    I only want to share that my cousin Joel who is a striking BC Ambulance Service Paramedic, returned home from Afghanistan after six months' service as a medic.

    This is how the BC Liberals thank him?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackbird_hollow/2831480574/

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Tell Ya What Mike 67...

    .....let's not have paramedics at all. Those in need can call a number to get a taxi around for pickup.

    Sorry my friend, but if paramedics are an essential service, then pay for it. Same goes for cops, firemen, and all the other services we deem "essential".

  • Dan the socialist

    2 years ago

    Interesting article. Why

    Interesting article. Why should one have to spend their money to get training? The wages are bad for the job they do. They really are not treated well or properly funded by the province.

    ....yet we put Fire and Police workers up on a pedestal but when it comes to paramedics it is a different story.

    Shame on El Gordo!

  • Mike67

    2 years ago

    Common Sense

    I'm not arguing we don't need paramedics or that paramedics shouldn't be paid a decent wage. They haven't done well in recent negotiations thanks to the CUPE apporach and the majority are caring individuals that do a great job and deserve some kind of wage increase. The issue with this uneducated article is does it make sense to pay somebody to sit in a station full time waiting for a call - when the demand is only one call every few days. Of course the paramedics stuck in a stupid seniority system cycle do and the union will always say it does - but does that make sense for tax payers. Common sense would say no and thats why ambulance and fire services around the world and here in BC man rural and remote stations with on-call/pager staffing systems. Arguements about our station recieves far more calls than that would beg the question why are you arguing about getting $2 an hour then - clearly your not - your regularly getting $20 - $30 an hour because your actually 'working' regularly and not just on call. Nobody has extra millions to change the system, if everyone sudenly believes that service is so bad these stations need full time staff then the only choice is to reduce the number of stations - start closing some remote station. How would that go down?

  • ME2

    2 years ago

    Cost to the "taxpayer" is NOT the only consideration.

    Mike67 would be the first to complain VERY loudly if he got busted up in a rural area car crash, and there were no people to staff the station beause no-one could afford to be there.

    In my community, being a paramedic is a losing proposition just as was described above, and the attendants are doing it purely as a community service, something I suspect M67 thinks is his just due.

    David Baxter of the Urban Futures Institute has estimated that the economic return from rural areas per capita is twice that of urban areas.

    So look at it this way Mike, if you want those people out there producing the goodies for you, maybe it's going to cost a bit more to provide the services for the people in those areas.

  • G West

    2 years ago

    Well put ME2

    I'd suggest that the people who support the employer in this dispute should call the Premier or the Minister of Health when they need an ambulance.

    Seems to me it's the Executive Council members who are the ones getting paid a king's ransom for doing nothing.

    Exactly how many days did the Legislature sit in the last fiscal year?

    Why not check it out mikey...you seem to be a guy who is concerned about value for money.

    How come it's only union brothers who are the target of your ire?

    Double standard anyone?

  • Jen13

    2 years ago

    Oh please

    I'm sorry but the crews who have been around for many years within the service didn't get anything for being on call.

    I'm more than sure most of you knew going into this line of work that you would only get pager pay. Don't forget, you get paid when you actually get a call. So to whine about this is absurd. You shouldn't have applied here in BC if you expected more. You decided to get hired on knowing full well about the pay. Be thankful you even get $2 an hour for sitting about. I don't get paid for being on call all weekend long.

    BC Taxpayers should not be expected to pay you anything UNLESS you are providing health care at a call. Would you like beer too at the station?

    Not only that, a lot of these new crews are kids with little to no life experience. They are cocky, inexperienced and have no real people skills. So you want $10 an hour on call while you Facebook, BBQ, lounge or take photos of yourself in uniform by the ambulance? No way.

    If you want more - go to another Province. That simple.

    As for safety issues - ambulances needing safety checks and things done to ensure your safety - than sure. I am for that. Not just for you but for the patients too.

    Oh and please whisper about how fat a patient is, or how smelly, or how poor. I have heard you standing in an ER or at a call making jokes. And stop taking photos of the deceased patient, badly injured patient or the smoking MVA.

    If you want Code 3 or 4 and lights and sirens just for fun and to feel cool - go to Toys R Us and buy a toy. Patients aren't toys and health care is not a joke. But your attitudes are.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Jen13

    Quote:
    I'm more than sure most of you knew going into this line of work that you would only get pager pay. Don't forget, you get paid when you actually get a call.

    The issue is not what to expect going into a particular line of work. The issue is that it's considered an essential service. And we' are not talking solely rural service; we are talking service as a whole.
    Why should firefighters, cops get paid when they are not "on the job", while paramedics are not?
    If paramedics are expected to pay for their own training, and get virtually no pay while "on call", then remove the "essential" status of their profession.

  • sunshine coast girl

    2 years ago

    I think it's totally disgusting....

    In the early 80's I was working for our local, rural ambulance service. There were strict guidelines around where I was allowed to be in the town while on pager duty. No more than 6 miles from the ambulance shack, response time to be within 10 minutes. I paid for my own first aid training. Most calls occured in the middle of the night. I wanted to help my community. For all this I received $1.00 per hour while on call. First aid courses at the time cost $750.00. Zero possibility of ever acquiring a "real" job with the service. There was one full-time employee. Sometimes we went two weeks without a call; sometimes two or three a day. I think it's disgusting to treat an "essential" service in this manner.

  • Jen13

    2 years ago

    In response

    Be logical. Any EMS service is "essential". As are many other services outside EMS.

    So you are telling me that young, inexperienced, cocky paramedics should be paid for sitting around in the town's where there is little to no call volume?

    Not only that but some are only EMR and cannot do a simple IV. Or other protocols.

    Plenty of University students are paying a lot more than $5000 (Paramedic course at the JI) and are spending more time at school at $8000 per semester to do jobs one day that they may not even get. It's called making your own risky decisions. And they too do essential jobs.

    The economy isn't strong either. I pay out of my rear end in taxes and think its unfair for me to pay someone who sits around.

    Not to mention they can take shifts to supplement (Fox cars, transfer, etc).

    They made the choice to pay for their education and to go into something that was part time and only $2 an hour while not providing care. Why should we as tax payers have to pay for your choices?

    As I said, you could have gone to another Province and have chosen not to. Deal with it.

  • thirstydeer

    2 years ago

    People just don't understand...

    Regarding the comments about rural communities and them being thought of as "less" than other communities: There was no insult meant towards people who choose to live in rural or remote areas, but what those residents fail to remember that when you choose to live in those communities, one thing that is not readily available is amenities. The closest hospital can be hours away, only small grocery stores with limited selection, higher prices for gas, lack of services for your family, etc. It's a trade-in for wanting to live there - whatever your reasons are for being there. The reason why most paramedics don't want to work in those communities is because those are the majority of stations where you earn a whopping $2/hr, and you can go days or weeks between getting calls (which also makes it hard to keep your license year after year). Financially, it's to impossible to live off of that. As for the suggestion to take those postings out of the current process, and making them "competition based". Well unfortunately due to what I said above, those positions won't be filled.

    Regarding Mike67's comments about comparing rural paramedics to rural firefighters. The big difference is the small-town firefighters are volunteers, not employees. Paramedics are not volunteers, they are employees. They get hired. They work for an employer. They are paid money (even if it's not enough) to do work their employers tells them to do.

    Regarding the comments about BC paramedics not deserving full-pay for working in smaller communities because the call volume is lower. If that is how you feel, why does no one complain about the RCMP paying their officers full-wages to work in tiny and remote communities? Do they get paid on an on-call basis? No. Do they carry pagers and when a call comes in for an assault or rape, they get paged from home, drive to the police station to get into the police car, then go to the call? No. They get paid the same salary all other officers with the same level of seniority anywhere else in the country earns. In fact, they earn more because, recognizing the challenge of keeping remote communities staffed, the RCMP gives "isolation pay". Guess what? Nurses and Doctors get that too. So do air traffic controllers for that matter. Anyone here complaining about that? Oh but heaven forbid paramedics get paid like they are professionals.

    Like RickW said, you can't get it both ways: have paramedics readily available when you need them, but locked up somewhere not using up taxpayer's dollars when not needed.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Jen13

    Quote:
    So you are telling me that young, inexperienced, cocky paramedics should be paid for sitting around in the town's where there is little to no call volume?

    Like was said, the cops are paid to eat donuts.
    And if one doesn't want to pay to have paramedics on hand, then one should expect to either drive one's self to the hospital -- or to die.

    As for lack of amenities and/or increased cost of living in rural communities, that arguement goes towards INCREASING the stipend, if nothing else.

    And as for this "volunteer" notion, what if there were no volunteers?

    Or should we all move to Vancouver? Or maybe we should all move to Toronto, and have One Big City.......

  • srfl

    2 years ago

    A big thanks!

    To a "young, inexperienced, cocky paramedic" in a rural area a few years ago that saved my life. I am very grateful that he was paid to "sit around" where there was little call volume.

    My life is valuable to me, if not to those NOT living in rural areas.....
    Of course they should receive a raise!

  • Jen13

    2 years ago

    And I quote

    ...Not only that but some are only EMR and cannot do a simple IV. Or other protocols.

    Plenty of University students are paying a lot more than $5000 (Paramedic course at the JI) and are spending more time at school at $8000 per semester to do jobs one day that they may not even get. It's called making your own risky decisions. And they too do essential jobs.

    The economy isn't strong either. I pay out of my rear end in taxes and think its unfair for me to pay someone who sits around.

    Not to mention they can take shifts to supplement (Fox cars, transfer, etc).

    They made the choice to pay for their education and to go into something that was part time and only $2 an hour while not providing care. Why should we as tax payers have to pay for your choices?

    Funny how no one can answer why we tax payers need to pay for a decision you made on your own.

    This topic isn't about police or fire. It's about paramedics. Do I think that other EMS deserve pay for sitting about? No. So don't assume that is where I stand.

    As well, Community Coroners make nothing (used from Hope to Golden) unless they are paged to a death. They too are on call and get nothing for sitting about. You don't hear them whining. They chose to do that all on their own.

    As I said, you could have gone to another Province and have chosen not to. Deal with it.

  • Jen13

    2 years ago

    To add

    To add, Community Coroners also have to reside within 30 km's of their area.

    Are they not essential? Very much so. Yet they get paid zero dollars to sit about.

  • Shea

    2 years ago

    Wow

    These people do an incredibly hard job. I can't say I would want to do this especially in a small community where you may know the next person you find bleeding in a ditch.

    Jen you seem angry... were you denied a position? What is it you do that you listen in on conversations at the hospital or on an accident scene?

    I do not think they are seeking full time employment in every community but perhaps better coverage for the communities that are busy enough to pay someone non pensionable earnings should be appropriately staffed. A pager response system in a town that has people that are already living there and established can work but what about the person who lives in BC that wants to be a paramedic in BC. They are required to move to small communities where they earn very little to gain experience.

    I do not know the answer but a fair wage increase is not unreasonable considering they have not had even the equivalent to inflation for many years. It is like being demoted.

    Like any profession there are new young and hopefully eager individuals that require guidance to become the non cocky and respectful person you want saving your life. This comes from experience and with the current system anyone who wants this to be a career must take 4 or 5 years in a lower call volume station to achieve this. Perhaps a pensionable minimum wage for being in a station waiting for a call is part of the answer. Create a real casual work force that receives benefits at reasonable time . A paramedic could gain experience and help the community by spending some time assisting in the local hospital or medical clinic while they are being paid this minimum wage then receive their appropriate hourly wage for their level of training if they respond to a call.

    It is a lot to expect someone to spend $5000 on tuition and the time to take a specific training that allows you to do one job then expect it to be done in a community far from home for little to no pay or compensation.

    There are just as many reasons for doing the job as there are paramedics but in the ones I have met there is a uniform caring for the well being of the public and a feeling of duty. Why not treat these people that have done the job and choose to do the job (despite the crappy conditions that they may be fully aware of or not) with some respect. The paramedics are asking for the sky after getting nothing for many years and the liberal union busting privatizing government is offering dirt. Hopefully they can meet some place in the trees with a fair agreement. I want a reliable proud service with respected individuals when I dial 911 whether it is for police, fire or AMBULANCE.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Jen13

    Quote:
    The economy isn't strong either. I pay out of my rear end in taxes and think its unfair for me to pay someone who sits around

    Quote:
    Funny how no one can answer why we tax payers need to pay for a decision you made on your own.

    You must surely be referring to MLA's here...........? Or is it that you want to be selective about who or what you castigate?

  • NicS

    2 years ago

    Gov't vs. Private Ambulance Service

    I was speaking to a first aid attendant yesterday who claimed that private ambulance attendants, with their own ambulance of sorts can earn over a $1,000 per day up north or within rural camp based industries such as mining, logging and gas & oil related industries. You do have to purchase your own enclosed 4 x 4 and some equipment, but the pay is apparently very reasonable and equipment and course loans can be paid off in less than a year.

    One wonders if more gov't paramedics went over to private industry, would the gov't have to start paying decent wages & benefits just to compete?

  • G West

    2 years ago

    This is disgusting - give your head a shake

    Quote:
    If you want more - go to another Province. That simple.

    Jen13

    Perhaps, Jen13, you haven't heard that BC is the "Best Place on Earth".

    Maybe you should talk to the premier.

    As for me, if rural areas have fewer 'amenities' so be it - I'd say health care and access to EMS is not an amenity but a necessity.

    AS for paying taxes out anything, you should learn a bit more about the tax system - I think you'll find that your income tax has nothing to do with where you choose to live and work...unless you happen to be a doctor or a nurse practitioner.

    Those professionals receive a considerable 'bonus' for living and working in the sticks.

    Perhaps you need to look again at the situation that obtains for rural paramedics.

  • toxicmegacolon

    2 years ago

    Jen13

    Quote:
    They made the choice to pay for their education and to go into something that was part time and only $2 an hour while not providing care. Why should we as tax payers have to pay for your choices?

    As I said, you could have gone to another Province and have chosen not to. Deal with it.

    I'm glad you feel comfortable with pager paramedics making $2/hour being responsible for your life. If you get hurt, you'll be dead long before any paramedic receives a page and finally shows up. Police, nurses, doctors, and others don't only get their regular wage, they also get incentive pay to work in rural towns. If you go anywhere outside of a major city in BC, you'll find a large number of ambulance stations that are completely shut down due to a lack of paramedics. I'm glad that you are so selfish that you could care less about the other citizens of this province, but I believe they deserve a certain quality of care.

    As for hearing paramedics talking about patients, I have heard a lot worse things coming out of the mouths of nurses in the ER. And if you expect a professional service but only pay someone $2/hour, what kind of person do you think is going to be attracted to that kind of environment? I, for one, have quit that joke of an ambulance service to go to medical school. I just feel sorry for my family and friends who are at a higher risk because of that neglected service, one that is neglected because of the apathy and ignorance of people like you.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    The comment was made.....

    ....that people choosing to live in rural settings should not expect the same amenities and levels of service as those in urban settings.

    Now why is that? Last time I looked, this was a single province, and as a province, BCers expect the same level of amenities and service as TROC. So the same sould apply within each province.

    As a corollary, just because an individual chooses to live in an urban setting, what gives her or him the right to expect service any more than those who choose to live elsewhere?

  • thirstydeer

    2 years ago

    In response to Paul9

    Paul9 said "Paramedics have only CUPE and its EDITED -- TYEE MODERATOR Strohmeier to blame for the $2/hour pager pay. The fact is, it was CUPE which negotiated with the EHSC for the $2 pager pay (which was instituted to cover the cost of the pager, not to pay paramedics). So, maybe you should ask your CUPE Reps. why they negotiated $2, and quit blaming everyone else."

    Yes, CUPE negotiated the $2/hr pager pay because prior to that, paramedics got $0/hr pager pay. It's sad that $2/hr is considered a raise. Even more insulting is that when during the elections last month, MLA George Abbott boasted about that $2/hr raise, claiming he has taken it upon himself to improve the paramedic situation - and that it was because of him that paramedics now "enjoy this bonus". And no, the $2/hr has nothing to do with covering the cost of the pager. In fact that doesn't even make any sense. How does paying paramedics $2/hr somehow cover the money that BCAS pays some pager manufacturer to buy the pager?

  • thirstydeer

    2 years ago

    In response to Mike67

    Mike 67 says "They haven't done well in recent negotiations thanks to the CUPE apporach and the majority are caring individuals that do a great job and deserve some kind of wage increase. The issue with this uneducated article is does it make sense to pay somebody to sit in a station full time waiting for a call - when the demand is only one call every few days.... Common sense would say no and thats why ambulance and fire services around the world and here in BC man rural and remote stations with on-call/pager staffing systems... Nobody has extra millions to change the system..."

    Paramedics have done poorly in past negotiations - not because of CUPE. Whenever it comes time to negotiate a new contract, the government 1) threatens to privatize the service if paramedics don't sign their offer sheet, 2) threaten to downgrade the service to the municipalities, 3) threaten to cut down on the services the public gets if we don't give in to their demands. Paramedics chose not to have the service hurt, and sacrificed legitimate pay demands. As part of their offer, there were supposed to be "open table" projects to improve the service. Once the contract was signed, the government then shut the door on these projects and refused to talk. Also, the government says there is no money available. Yet 2 months after the last contract was signed, the government announced a mysterious 1 billion dollars lying around that was never accounted for. Paramedics have lost all respect for the government, and how they handle this service, and won't back down this time. This government has purposefully attacked healthcare workers, even breaking the law to do it (like ripping up the nurse's contract well after it was signed by the government and the nurse's union). You say it makes sense to pay paramedics so low when the call volume is so low. Why do you not feel the same for police, nurses or doctors? They get their full wage no matter how busy they are. And your statement about fire and ambulance services 'around the world' having the on-call/pager system is a blind assumption. Having researched the provinces, I know first hand that is not the case. And in the situations where there is an on-call/pager-system, the paramedics are treated much better then BCAS treats its paramedics. And I have to laugh at the "nobody has extra millions to change the system" comment. You're wrong there. The government does. They instead choose to spend the money elsewhere - but it is there. When it comes to improving the ambulance service, there seems to be no money. But when it comes to building the Vancouver Convention Center, there's money. When it comes time to re-roof GM Place, there's money. Not only is there money, there's money when these projects go grossly over-budget. Those two examples in Vancouver are amenities the majority of residents will never utilize, but the ambulance service is something everyone needs proper access to.

  • sunshine coast girl

    2 years ago

    I still think..

    that paramedics hold the power. All of you should withdraw your services. What are they going to do? Throw you all in jail and replace you? With who? They threatened to do that with the BC Ferry employees a few years ago too. Nothing happened and they got a lot closer to what they wanted. Quit letting them intimidate you guys (and girls). You have the power.

  • thirstydeer

    2 years ago

    About withdrawing services...

    The only reason why paramedics haven't done that is because, unlike with BC Ferries and BC teachers when they went on strike (legally or not), their absences from their jobs didn't cost lives. The first day paramedics walk off the job there'll be headlines in the papers like "Paramedics walk off the job, 15 people die waiting for an ambulance".

    The strike is against the employer, not the public. They don't want to harm the public. Unfortunately, this puts no pressure on the government to settle the strike. The only thing paramedics have going for them is public support. The minute they walk off the job, that support is lost - and they become the bad guys.

  • thirstydeer

    2 years ago

    In response to Jen13

    Where is all this hostility towards paramedics coming from?

    You say "BC Taxpayers should not be expected to pay you anything UNLESS you are providing health care at a call." Well, do you think the same logic should apply to firemen, police, nurses, and doctors? If an ER in a smaller community happens to have no patients in it, does the nurse's pay halt right then, and only resumes when a patient comes in?

    You say "a lot of these new crews are kids with little to no life experience. They are cocky, inexperienced and have no real people skills." You just pointed out one of the largest concerns that remote communities tend to only get "new" paramedics, and as soon as their 6 month probation expires, they transfer out to somewhere larger and busier. About the insult that they are cocky and have no people skills, well all I'll say is that for you to label hundreds of paramedics who provide a valuable service with those attributes only highlights your ignorance on the issue.

    You said "Not only that but some are only EMR and cannot do a simple IV. Or other protocols." That is true. However, the reason for that is because there is not enough PCPs who are willing to live in the remote communities, so BCAS has to downgrade their requirements just to fill the stations. Who would want to undertake the debt of getting a diploma then working for $2/hr in a community far away from where you want to live and work, and only get calls (and work experience) once in a week or so?

    You said "The economy isn't strong either... Community Coroners also have to reside within 30 km's of their area. Are they not essential? Very much so. Yet they get paid zero dollars to sit about." The economy excuse is just that, an excuse. Four years ago when the economy was booming, paramedics were still told there was no money available. Four years before that, same thing. They've had 4 years to put money aside to address the issues paramedics have been raising, but have chosen to ignore them. To now blame the economy is just an excuse. And no, coroners are not an essential service. They get called out to people who have died... not who are dying. That's like comparing police officers to parking lot security guards.

    Lastly, you said "If you want more - go to another Province. That simple." and "As I said, you could have gone to another Province and have chosen not to. Deal with it." Well, some paramedics think just like you, Jen. They are moving out of province to work in other cities. Approximately half of new paramedic program graduates state they intend on working in Alberta. Other paramedics either change careers, or go to other provinces. Because of the wrong people who share your attitude, the staffing shortage will get worse every year.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    thirstydeer

    Quote:
    If an ER in a smaller community happens to have no patients in it, does the nurse's pay halt right then

    Considering that the purported aim of the healthcare professions is to cure everyone, and so make their tasks redundant, I'd say that the nurse's, doctors, et al, have succeeded in their job and should be paid a performance bonus!

    After all, a large number of CEOs and senior executives recently paid themselves very large performance bonuses for putting the world down the crapper. A bonues for a goal attained would be the least we could do for the fine women and men on the front lines of medicine.

  • ME2

    2 years ago

    It depends upon who's ox is gored, eh? :- )

    I'm sure that if Jen 13's mother lived in a small town and suffeed a medical emegergency which required an ambulance ride to a distant hospital - arriving in the nick of time to save her life (and this happens often), then Jen 13 would think no price was too great to have had that ambulance and attendant around.

    But then, since he / she seems to be pretty boneheaded, perhaps having one's mother dead is worthhile if it reduces taxes.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Depends, I suppose....

    ....on what assets the old gal has.........

  • sunshine coast girl

    2 years ago

    True, thirstydeer..

    good points. I just get really annoyed with ignorant attitudes like our Jen13. It's a symptom of the "me first" generation. If a lack of service affected HER family, she'd be screaming from the rooftops. Anyone else - who cares? When did Canadians become like that? It was so insidious, I hardly noticed until it hit me between the eyes.

  • VivianLea Doubt

    2 years ago

    indeed, sunshine coast girl

    When did Canadians become like that? One shudders to think that some posting here might be one's neighbour...not sure it's a generational thing, though. The word insidious is apt; those things that we used to take for granted like ambulance service, medical care,and snowplowing (to name only a few) just got ever so gradualy eroded until it seemed normal. Of course, only short years ago these things were in a reasonably good state in the province of BC. I find it hard to put a price on the ambulance service, since they once saved my mother's life, quite literally, and once rescued me when I collasped in a strange town.

    The question is, to return to your point, when did Canadians, or BCers, become accepting of this state of affairs? I don't think that is actually true, since marketing studies, at any rate, consistently show that people rate customer service in all its various aspects as a most important aspect of life; that good service equates to a higher quality of life. By far the majority of people (around 70 %) believe this...I guess, then, that we would simply have to convince those people to vote.

    It seems pretty clear that the agenda here is to starve everyone and everything for money so that the service becomes abysmal and then to say Look - the private sector can do it so much better. The thing is, that anybody over the age of 25 or so can remember when the public service really was public service...apparently, it still comes back to convincing them to vote, because that sense of powerlessness over one's fate is no way to live.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Vivianlea

    Quote:
    I don't think that is actually true, since marketing studies, at any rate, consistently show that people rate customer service in all its various aspects as a most important aspect of life; that good service equates to a higher quality of life. By far the majority of people (around 70 %) believe this

    The people of Canada do not generally think that privatization will provide the quality of service we envisage in our mindseye. But we consistently put governments into power which persist in privatization -- as though we were afraid to actually see retained and/or implemented the services we expect.

    Having said that, I would like to clarify to Jen13, Mike67, et al, just what they are paying for with their taxes. In the case of the paramedics, we are paying them for what they know -- for their expertise that we in the general public are deficient in. We are NOT just paying for what they do; we pay them for what they know and that we do not.

  • VivianLea Doubt

    2 years ago

    agreed, RickW

    I made the argument to broad, possibly - even though this is an article about paramedics - because, quite simply, it applies to road maintenance crews and the plethora of all those people that make our lives better. We pay taxes because we believe that certain services should be provided to all people in common - and we used to pay taxes so that these people could be hired by various levels of government because we believed that government was a better overseer of our money than some private business. Because the same level of service should be provided to everyone, regardless of where they live (or the level of their income.)

    The point I was making is that few people, apparently, believe as some posting here do, that we should be receiving less service - because the studies are quite clear on that. So perhaps the task before us is to make clearer the privatization agenda of certain governments - and to clearly demonstrate the link between those governments and the quality of our lives at present, compared with pretty much any time in the recent past.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    I made the argument to broad

    Not at all! The blinders that some folks here are wearing, do not permit them to see the similarities among trades and professions. They in fact discriminate randomly, choosing arbitrarily those professions they want to see get paid to eat doughnuts and drink coffee, and those they do not.

    Theirs is a kneejerk reaction.

  • ME2

    2 years ago

    Catch 22

    One of the central beliefs the marketeers have successfully promoted to the public is that government is by definition naturally oppressive, and so when they control gov't themselves, it is only natural that they make it oppressive, right?

    So when the neocons form administrations that hold government services to people have become "too expensive and too inefficient", but then work to make them so, and when they corrupt their own governments with crooked deals to themselves and their friends, they have only manufactured the proof that they were right all along.

    Come election time, they can then run on a platform of "getting rid of government" and win yet again.

    If you think that's a stretch, next time you hear someone say "All politicians are crooked" or "They're all in it only for themselves", try - if you dare - to convince him or her otherwise.

    For those who wonder why so many people don't bother to vote, there's your answer

  • allegramills@te...

    2 years ago

    My husband is a paramedic in

    My husband is a paramedic in Vancouver full time but like everyone else he put in many years at a rural station.

    The article does not reveal the full facts. First of all, paramedics in rural areas are paid $90.00 per call in addition to their pager pay. This means that if the call only lasts 20 minutes they still get the full $90.00. Nowt his is definitely not a lot of money and their are real issues of fairness and equity that must be addressed, but please do not mislead those that do not know the facts!

    Moreover theses part timers often hold other employment and their work as paramedics offers real flexibility as well as benefits!

    I wish them nothing but luck and think they deserve much more but tell the truth!!!

  • thirstydeer

    2 years ago

    Whole truth?

    Yes, if on a pager shift you get a call-out, you get a minimum of a 4 hour pay. This was put in place because at the time, provincial legislation required that if any employee shows up to work and actually does work, they must be paid a minimum of four hours. This law was designed to stop part-time people being cheapened out by coming in to work, then get told to go home after an hour or so. The call-out is not some gift BCAS gave paramedics... it is them following the law that prior to, they conveniently ignored.

    Additionally, the getting that call-out is no comfort to those paramedics who actually want to make it their career but have to do their shifts in a town where the call volume equals less then a call a day, like Alert Bay, Anahim Lake, Boston Bar, Clinton, and so on. Paramedics who work in Bowen Island don't live there, and must pay for the ferry over there just to do a $2/hr pager shift, hoping to get a call-out to just cover the expenses of doing the shift, much less actually earning anything.

    And about the benefits, what benefits? Part-time paramedics don't get benefits of any kind until they complete 6 full years of service. Not only that, but they must meet a minimum number of calls they've done each year in that 6 year span. The only way to get benefits earlier is to get into full-time when a spot opens up, but even for that, the wait is around 4-5 years. You can try getting into dispatch too, but the opportunities for that are way too far and between.

    Thanks for your best wishes, Allegra, but I think the article is quite accurate. One of the big problems with this call-out system is that you never know what you are going to earn from week to week. That's a hard way to live - and no other EMS service has to do it.

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