Foreign Farm Workers Unionize: A First in BC
Seasonal labourers in Surrey claim bad conditions, vote to join UFCW.
Union aims to organize more farms.
For the first time, foreign workers imported to pick B.C. crops have been allowed to join a union.
Protecting Migrant Workers
Rights abuses are widespread among seasonal foreign workers on B.C. farms, says Mark Thompson, professor emeritus at UBC's Sauder School of Business.
"The poor conditions on the farms and the need for reforms" are laid out, says Thompson, in a recent research paper, Cultivating Farmworker Rights, he co-authored for the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.
The Campbell government has brought in a number of changes in employment standards law and enforcement that have made farm workers more vulnerable to exploitation, says the report. Thompson and his co-authors urge these fixes:
- Restore overtime pay, statutory holidays and annual vacations for farm workers
- Raise the minimum wage in the fields to $10 an hour
- Strengthen inspections at farm sites and restore the proactive monitoring teams they abolished in 2001
- Create a new non-profit hiring hall system to replace the often abusive farm-labour contractor system currently in place
- Allow seasonal workers -- now tied to the employer who imports them -- to move from employer to employer
- Require employers to prove they comply with Canadian law in their treatment of migrant workers
- Prohibit employers from punishing workers who demand their rights by repatriating them before the end of the season
- Allow migrant workers to immigrate to Canada permanently
-- Tom Sandborn
Migrant workers at Greenway Farms in Surrey have voted to join the United Food and Commercial Workers (UFCW) of Canada. The historic certification was granted with the support of more than 75 per cent of the roughly 40 affected workers. Never before had B.C.'s Labour Relations Board approved a union to represent workers brought to Canada under the federal Seasonal Agricultural Workers Program.
The Surrey certification comes on the heels of a seasonal workers contract in Manitoba and is the result of a UFCW organizing drive that began in 1995. Union sources have told The Tyee that four farms in Quebec also face the prospect of unionization.
"I am pleased to hear this," said Raj Chouhan, the NDP MLA for Burnaby-Edmonds, and the founder of an earlier attempt to unionize B.C. farms. "Workers are finally getting some protection.... We need all the support we can get for farm workers."
The Seasonal Agricultural Workers Program (SAWP) matches foreign workers, primarily from the Caribbean and Mexico, with agricultural employers who claim they cannot find Canadian employees. The program began in eastern Canada in 1966 and has been bringing Mexican workers to B.C. farms since 2004. It has been criticized, by observers who see it as a way of keeping wages in agriculture low and institutionalizing the exploitation of vulnerable guest workers, historically a group very hard to unionize.
'We've never had decent water'
"Right now, we're seeing small changes, nothing major yet," said a worker at Greenway Farms who spoke with The Tyee on condition of anonymity because he fears employer retaliation.
"Now we are hoping we will get our pay on time. We hope now we will finally get clean water. The water now isn't even good enough to take showers. Some of us are getting sick. We've never had decent water," he said, speaking through interpreter Erika Del Carmen Fuchs of the advocacy group Justicia.
The Greenway worker -- call him Carlos -- has been coming to B.C. to work since 2004. The income from Canadian farm work supports him and his family. He claims to have been unable to find work in his home country.
Asked why he was interested in joining a union, Carlos replied: "The bad treatment by the boss. We have been under a lot of pressure. For example, we don't have adequate housing and the water situation is bad. The water is contaminated and people are getting sick. The boss said he didn't have time to fix it. People were getting sick."
The owner and administrators of Greenway Farms did not answer repeated calls placed to their numbers by The Tyee.
'You do have rights'
"I always tell the workers, 'Don't let people treat you like you don't count. You may not be Canadian citizens, but you are Canadian workers and you do have rights,'" says Lucy Luna, a UFCW organizer with the Abbotsford Agricultural Workers Alliance Support Centre.
Luna, herself an immigrant from Mexico, is a veteran of five years of volunteer work advocating for farm workers in Alberta, and two more years as a volunteer in Chilliwack. Since May of last year, she has been a paid union staffer at the Abbotsford centre, part of a network of eight such worker assistance offices operated across the country by the UFCW.
She said workers at Greenway approached the union because of "unbearable" conditions at the Surrey farm. She told The Tyee that Greenway workers complained of verbal abuse and insults from supervisors, overwork, late paycheques and a general lack of respect.
"These workers were brought in later than many were this year," Luna said, "and expect to keep working until mid-December. We hope to have a contract negotiated and adopted before the end of this season."
"SAWP workers deserve the same protections as Canadian workers," said UFCW local 1518 president Ivan Limpright in Surrey. "So now we will work to secure a first contract that delivers that."
Manitoba precedent
Earlier this summer, workers at Mayfair Farms in Portage La Prairie, Man., signed the first contract by a Canadian union to bargain for migrant farm-workers. That deal will guarantee workers there a grievance procedure, a right to be recalled each season by seniority, and protections against being evicted from employer-owned housing or expelled from Canada without an independent hearing.
"We're rocking and rolling now," a jubilant Stan Raper, national organizer with the UFCW, told The Tyee. "This marks a new era for workers and unionism in Canada."
His union is one of the largest private sector unions in Canada, representing over 240,000 workers in food processing, warehousing, retailing and other sectors. After more than a decade of grassroots organizing, including the establishment of eight migrant agricultural worker support centres from Saint-Rémi, Que. to Abbotsford, B.C., Raper and his colleagues are beginning to realize their dream of representing farm workers across the country.
The union has not only conducted organizing drives and opened service centres for workers, it has also gone to court repeatedly. For example, in 2001, the UFCW won a victory in the Supreme Court of Canada, Dunmore vs. Ontario, striking down provincial legislation that excluded agricultural workers from provincial Labour Relations Act protections.
Despite the Supreme Court victory, Raper says that Ontario has yet to fully recognize freedom of association rights for farm workers, and the UFCW is currently waiting for a judgment expected next month in another fight on this topic in the Ontario courts. In the meantime, the union has been able to win access to Employment Insurance parental benefits for SAWP guest workers, who for many years were required to pay into the EI program but could not collect when they had kids.
"We helped process over $22 million in parental benefit claims for SAWP workers recently," the UFCW's Raper told The Tyee. "Our migrant worker centres helped over 30,000 workers last year."
Lucy Luna said the Greenway victory is only a beginning.
"As long as we can keep unionizing more farms, we can make a change," she said. "Numbers count. This is just a start. There are lots of farms out there. Knowledge is important. Workers need to know that they have rights in Canada."
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Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
What Goes Around...
Some of us are getting sick. We've never had decent water.
"The bad treatment by the boss. We have been under a lot of pressure.
For example, we don't have adequate housing and the water situation is bad. The water is contaminated and people are getting sick.
Well, if those are the reprehensible conditions that the workers live under, then the farm owner should suffer the consequences of unionization and the workers can enjoy the fruits of same.
ME2
3 years ago
Luke
Hey, Luke. As a white, born-Canadian male, I worked in Gyppo sawmills in BC's Southern Interior under conditions just as bad as portrayed above.
The living conditions were terrible - uninsulated shacks where the water buckets were frozen in the morning, etc, late and occasionally NO paycheques, no safety. At one mill, 40 miles out of town, we crew rode back and forth in the open back of a pickup.
Until the IWA arrived in the 60s, such conditions were not abnormal.
Without unions, Luke, we'd ALL be working like the migrant workers and thinking it's normal.
The unfortunate thing is that Capitalism is not a cooperative venture, and left unrestrained, quickly becomes parasitic on the people.
Stump
3 years ago
I LOL'ed
Pull up your stockings fella, your bias is showing. Everyone, business owners included. can benefit from unionization if they so choose.
Van Isle
3 years ago
A couple of months ago I met
A couple of months ago I met a Mexican guest worker who's working on a local diary farm who was happier than a pig-in-muck because his employer treats him so well. He is only expected to work a 40 hr. week and gets paid overtime when he works it. He's making about $11.00 per hour with a small house on the farm that he shares with another migrant worker. What a contrast with what is described in this article and other horror stories that have been reported in the past. Now, if the farmer wants to keep a union away from their farm hands, it's all butt-simple isn't; just treat them properly.
JIm
3 years ago
"Everyone, business owners
"Everyone, business owners included. can benefit from unionization if they so choose."
I LOL'ed.
Stump
3 years ago
To quote Homer
"It's funny because it's true."
DJT
3 years ago
Funny how our Provincial
Funny how our Provincial government is willing to spend a crap load of money to make everything nicey nice so foreigners are happy when they come to the Olympics, but they don't give a rats ass about what foreign workers think or how they are treated. Oh, yah, one group has money to spend and one doesn't. Silly me.
PS: Luke S., these "reprehensible conditions" you mention are in all probability largely a result of the fact that there has been no unionization. And what are the "consequences" of unionization that you have in mind? The farm owner doesn't get to have lobster everynight with his steak?
happy
3 years ago
There we go again
DJT said "The farm owner doesn't get to have lobster everynight with his steak?"
I thought in the Tyee world farmers were brave defenders of the ALR standing against the onslaught of untamed Capitalism running roughshod over the sacred lands.
I'm confused
G West
3 years ago
Happy
You're confused?
Now he tells us.
So the 'consequences' of non-unionized workplaces ARE steak and lobster every night for those who take advantage of the means of production.
I'm glad you're finally recognizing the limitations of the Capitalist 'free' market.
Welcome to the proletariat.
ME2
3 years ago
rhetoric
Be careful here, folks. It seems to me that there's no shortage of Capitalists who own unionised workplaces, yet who can easily afford steak and lobster dinners whenever they want.
G West
3 years ago
No question you're right ME2
But, in the agriculture industry, when a good portion of their success is based upon the availability of seasonal, low paid and non-organized labour and the labour contractors (now that's a euphemism of ever I heard one) who provide them I don't have any problem with supporting the idea that such workers have been taken advantage of.
As for steak and lobster - that's pretty rich grub - I'd say to all hungry capitalists to eat up, enjoy and wiat for the coronary.
sanamark
3 years ago
Why are they needed?
Why do we need foreign farm workers anyway? Why don't the farmers just go to Hastings Street and get workers there? That would solve the farmer's and the the homeless' problems in a single stroke.
Stump
3 years ago
homeless problem
I'm going to go out on a limb and hazard a guess that the problems of homeless people, many of whom have mental illness and drug addiction issues, won't be solved by working on a farm.
Are you reading Oliver Twist right now too Sanamark? Ripping yarn isn't it?
happy
3 years ago
Yup. Very confused
So what are farmers then? Rich Capitalists living off the labour of the less fortunate judging by the comments.
That being the case lets get rid of the ALR then, since they MUST be taking advantage of such. No?
You guys kill me
G West
3 years ago
NO - you're still confused I see
It's actually pretty easy - everyone needs to start paying a lot more for their food, that's all.
It's really pretty simple stuff, the economy that rewards the rich does little or nothing for the poor and working people - which is why upward mobility and income equity is a thing of the past and society is almost as stratified now as it was in the gilded age - you can look it up. Sensible people know that preserving farmland and protecting the ALR is one of the most important elements in working to make the market sustainable - but of course market oriented capitalists don't care about that.
Just sell it off and build more houses - great solution.
happy
3 years ago
Great solution
Pay a lot more for food is your solution West? Pay the farmers even more to exploit the poor. Strange for you.
Anyhoo, the point I was getting at is a few months ago everybody set their hair and beards on fire over farmland being removed from the ALR by evil Gordo.
Now here we have the same bunch railing against those same ALR landowners as evil and even possibly "criminal"
Are you suggesting when Carole romps to easy victory next May she ahould pull a Mugabe and "redistribute" the farms to the more deserving
no1important
3 years ago
I am glad of this as these
I am glad of this as these workers have been treated like crap for years.
This goes back to fair wealth distribution yet again, the few profiting off the many.
Actually any place with more than 20 employees should be unionised automatically anyway.
sanamark
3 years ago
Farmers?
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the farmers capitalists too?
Anyway, skilled people make more money than unskilled people. I surmise we need a revolution to bring equality. Shall we start now or after lunch?
Jeffrey J.
3 years ago
Progress At Large
While progressive minded citizens may feel overwhelmed at times, by and large societies have moved forwards, not backwards, as this article proves. Yes, a narrow group of elites have temporarily reduced the number of employees who benefit from collective strength. But people still know they are better off pooling their resources as a group then they are individually.
This is a virtual truism that corporate elites have exploited for their own benefit for YEARS. Which is precisely why they hammer their own employees so hard. They are aware of the strength that comes with cooperation. As long as its employers who collude, and not workers.
Europe moved away from the us-vs-them, winner takes all strategy some time ago. Once employers and employees can work together, as they can in the EU, conflict is reduced, efficiency increased, and society as a whole benefits.
Great article as always Tyee.
G West
3 years ago
There's nothing inconsistent
There is nothing inconsistent about being in favour of preserving agricultural land AND being in favour of decent wages for all workers.
We pay too little for our food and we don't protect our own producers against unfair competition - why do you think they have to resort to cheap labour in the first place.
The only puzzle is to understand people who must see that the current system is failing badly and yet they continue to support the corruption that has created the failure.
That IS a mystery.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Van Isle...
BANG ON!
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
ME2...
Woah... if ya think I'm anti-union think again.
I fully appreciate what a unionized work-place is all about.
Family and friends are in the BCGEU, BCTF, BCFMWU, BCNU, CAW, IAFF, IAM & AW, IBEW, HSA, IUOE, CAW, UBCP, .. have I missed any?? :)
These people are essentially all centre/centre-right politically and it's the "working class warfare" rhetoric that they don't have any time for.
Just like me.
G West
3 years ago
Those who support unions
Those who 'say' they support unions and don't support increases in the minimum wage, greater worker participation and profit sharing a better distribution of wealth and an increase in the numbers of workers who are unionized in every country are not real union supporters - they're just along for the ride and it shows.
Anyone who doesn't believe in the essential principles of workplace democracy and increasing the limits on the power of management is anti-union.
Anyone who thinks they can support the Campbell government and be a true unionist is mistaken. It can't be done and anyone who thinks it can is deceiving themselves.
This kind of support for or association with a union is nothing more than selfishness and greed.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Ohhhh G West ...
Ipsos (along with Mustel represent the gold standard in BC polling) has occasionally included union household support within its quarterly political preference snapshots.
And over the past few years, union-households have consistently supported the Liberals over the NDP.
Go figure.
Welcome to the real world.
G West
3 years ago
As I wrote
I guess this needs repeating:
Those who 'say' they support unions and don't support increases in the minimum wage, greater worker participation and profit sharing a better distribution of wealth and an increase in the numbers of workers who are unionized in every country are not real union supporters - they're just along for the ride and it shows.
Anyone who doesn't believe in the essential principles of workplace democracy and increasing the limits on the power of management is anti-union.
Anyone who thinks they can support the Campbell government and be a true unionist is mistaken. It can't be done and anyone who thinks it can is deceiving themselves.
This kind of support for or association with a union is nothing more than selfishness and greed.
Of course there are lots of greedy selfish people in households where union members live - the point is that those people, if they meet your definition and support the Campbell government don't really have a clue about what union membership really means.
No one needs a poll to understand that fact. And we know that lots of people who benefit from union membership don't have the moral fiber or character to understand what hypocrites they are.
What else is new?
Stump
3 years ago
Union membership
These people are essentially all centre/centre-right politically and it's the "working class warfare" rhetoric that they don't have any time for.
Because (thankfully) membership in a union is mandatory in workplaces where the jobs fall under the umbrella of a union, it's no surprise that not all members would adhere to the same political views.
One might just as well suggest that because I pay fuel taxes when I pay for gas I support the Lieberal gov'ts philosophy of paving the province. Actions deemed mandatory clearly aren't indicative of one's perspective on a subject.
What's always a challenge is dealing with the Quislings and tattle-tales who run to management after every membership meeting, happy to sell their co-workers down the river by recounting who said what... in a pathetic attempt to ingratiate themselves.
What's always laughable is their belief they'd be in a better bargaining position on their own.
What's always depressing is their willingness to make things harder for the union executive and their co-workers, while happily collecting the benefits and wage increases gained through collective bargaining.
Or so I've heard....
What's plain stupid about is the characterization of the collective's attempts to better their wages and working conditions as 'working-class warfare' while bureaucrats get handed fat raises.
It's a hoot to hear the average man or woman's attempts to increase their pay packet described as greed and/or politically motivated –– while the same goals when chased by shareholders or CEOs is exemplified as a savvy, nay crucial, aspect of success. Holy Hypocrisy Batman!
The elite telling the peasants to know their place got old before the Age of Steam. Frankly, if I was one of the kleptocracy that's running things, I'd be handing out raises to private security guards left, right, and center. Those folks make minimum wage, or not much more. Does anyone really think they'll stay at their post defending the gated communities when the depredations become so odious that the majority replaces asking, or bargaining, as a means of getting ahead, with less mannered means of acquisition?
sanamark
3 years ago
A must read
I recently reread Mike Harcourt, a Measure of Defiance. Should be a must read for all the dogmatic posters above. It is a little out of date now but the message is exactly the same as it was in 1996.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Some how I thought you'd say it. Its been 5 hours, did you forget it?
I'm sure I'm not the only one sitting on pins and needles waiting to hear what Mike Harcourt said in 1996.
While you're digging that up what do you think of the bold idea your hero put forward, resigning when his party did something wrong? Or do you prefer the Campbell vision on that one of telling the province to go screw themselves?
Frank
3 years ago
Why we need unions
Behind every successful unionization is a boss like JIm.
Frank
3 years ago
happy
So I'm putting you down for paving all the agricultural land of BC because you're upset over how foreign farm workers are mistreated, is that right?
I'll support that if you also support ripping down the urban landscape and turning it into farmland because urban workers are exploited too.
sanamark
3 years ago
VPL
I borrowed it from the Vancouver Public Library, Frank. I returned it today so there is at least once copy available. It was a good read and Harcourt made some excellent points. Instead of "waiting on pins and needles," get a copy and read it.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Why not just tell us what it was he said that would be of such interest to us Tyee-types? If you got it from the library I doubt its a state secret.
sanamark
3 years ago
Call Number
Frank, you can read the book and draw your own conclusions. Since he was one of three elected NDP premiers, you might learn something.
Here is the call number:
921 H257a
Central branch has a copy in, as does Fraserview.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Stump...
The elite telling the peasants to know their place got old before the Age of Steam.
These people are just middle-class folk, who happen to be unionized and who have no interest whatsoever in union politics (except for one who sits on the union executive and is himself non-idealolgical.)
They just don't waste their time (and literally shake their heads) at some of the left-wing union elements preaching "working class warfare" against the "evil capitalist elites".
Sheesh, even former New Democrat Premier Dan Miller, a member of the PPWC, and former IWA Canada head Dan Haggard never engaged in "working class warfare" politics.
In fact, Haggard was even the federal Liberal candidate for New Westminster-Coquitlam in 2004 and was endorsed by Miller.
Imagine that.
Yep, the unionized folk that I acquaint with represent the 20% of the middle-of-the-road electorate that determines elections.
And they would also certainly be aghast at the treatment of the Mexican workers, the story subject-line.
G West
3 years ago
I agree, a lot of Liberals like to think they're liberal
They aren't.
They're right wing neo-cons, just like pee wee Rambo, Campbell and the rest of his fellow travellers and their enabling friends in the media.
Exactly the point that has been made dozens of times and which certain people want to ignore.
Union membership, as pointed out above, certainly doesn't mean some members aren't prepared to take the benefits without assuming any of the responsibilities.
Such people care only about themselves and their access to cheap food; they'll express dismay and astonishment at the treatment of immigrant temporary labour but they won't do a damn thing about it and they'll continue to lie about their politics.
What else is new?
sanamark
3 years ago
Am I missing something?
Correct me if I am wrong, but the above post doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
With all the causes in the world, normal people with families simply don't have enough time to champion them all. Other people may not have the same causes as I do but that is fine by me, too.
For people with families, this indeed a major concern. The finger than points has three pointing back.
G West
3 years ago
Not exactly correct Sanamark
You have to read the other comments made by Luke Skywalker in order to understand the narrative.
The point he was making is that union members are nothing more than simply middle class folks who aren't activists about trying to help others who don't have their advantages.
I entirely agree with him - but I don't think those people actually are REAL members of a union or a real part of the union movement.
They are selfish opportunists who care more about cheap food than they about the wages and working conditions of the people whose labour makes that cheapness possible.
I don't think it is so difficult to understand - unfortunately, we have a premier in this province who votes against an increase in the minimum wage every chance he gets.
But that hasn't stopped him from increasing his own salary, emoluments and entitlements by about 70% since he came to power; hasn't stopped him from selling out the provinces' assets at every opportunity and certainly didn’t stop him and his wife from accepting a free rides to Beijing in a private jet paid for by one of his biggest supporters.
If anyone has a problem with what he sees in the mirror each morning it ought to be Gordon Campbell-
By the way, I’m not a union member now and only ever was a member during one summer while I was at university.
sanamark
3 years ago
Ok
Well, then, GWest, you will have to vote against that premier next year. I am sure the next premier will take care of all the problems you discuss here.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
Your post implies this is a recent event. Even 40 and 50 years ago the CCF/NDP wasn't getting most of the union vote.
Union membership doesn't mean one is progressive, as the anecdote about your friends demonstrates.
Frank
3 years ago
Great
Apathy raises its head.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Thanks sanamark, sorry to hear your memory doesn't extend back to the time you read it.
I think I'll pass on the book, being as it made such an impression on you that you don't remember it.
sanamark
3 years ago
Correction
I remember the book well. What makes you think that I don't? Read the book yourself and draw your own conclusions.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Oh I don't know, the inability to recall anything from it?
sanamark
3 years ago
I don't follow you....
Frank, perhaps you need to read my post before you comment on it.
G West
3 years ago
In a discussion about unionizing exploited foreign workers
The mention of a book by a former premier seems at least mildly irrelevant.
Why is it that right wingers, whatever they call themselves, never actually want to discuss the current government - you know, the one that's managed to keep child poverty at record levels; created a situation where the ombudsman is getting 50 calls a month about mistreatment in long-term care homes; is busy destroying higher education while selling everything that's not bolted down to its friends?
It seems a strange disconnect that they'd prefer to discuss the alleged shortcomings of previous governments rather than the obvious ones of the one the province is suffering under right now.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
There's a great book by Emil Ludwig called "Bismarck". All about the life of the German statesman, Otto von Bismarck.
I'm always appalled at how few conservatives have ever read about him or Metternich, the Austrian chancellor.
Both are real conservative conservatives. Life lessons there for any self-respecting conservative even today.
Hope you enjoy the read and take what he says to heart.
sanamark
3 years ago
Bismarck
I have read that book, Frank and it was a good read. I am read plenty about Metternich, too, and various other despots.
Bismarck was a real character, he created a state with himself at the core but one that unfortunately could not really function after his dismissal. That state really lacked any checks and balances, especially on the military.
bob the cat
3 years ago
Conservative quote
John Stuart Mill:
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
I'm thrilled that you read it! It'll be fun making Bismarck references from here on.
Otto was a character alright, but I still like watching sausages and politics being made.
The conservative dream? Like I said, I would think Otto would be held in high regard by all conservatives even today. Otto wouldn't have resigned over being drunk either. And he certainly would have agreed with stonewalling on the Leg Raids.
sanamark
3 years ago
Resign?
Bismarck didn't resign. He was removed from office by Kaiser Wilhelm I, who regarded his foreign policy and insufficiently imperialist. It also meant the end of the "Drei kaiserbund" which left Germany open to a two front war. Bismarck realised this would eventually be fatal for Germany. He proved correct.
Bismarck did, however, institute the first old age pension system and a limited system of health insurance. Not that he was altruistic,he did it to try to reverse the success of the SPD.
sanamark
3 years ago
Correction
It was Kaiser Wilhelm II
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
??? I never said he did.
Much like our federal Liberals here in Canada, don't you agree? I've never believed the Liberals did it for altruistic reasons either. But to them politics is all about power.
Like I said, lots for a conservative to learn when reading about old Otto.
ME2
3 years ago
bob the cat
Good quote, bob the cat. It says it all.
ME2
3 years ago
bob the cat
Good quote, bob the cat. It says it all.
sanamark
3 years ago
You are correct, Frank
It is to most political parties. The Liberals have a good record of reading what the public wants and adjusting their platform to get elected. That is how they have held power so often and for so long. That is also how a representative democracy functions.
G West
3 years ago
Except here in Canada - and especially in BC
We have UNrepresentative democracy.
For example, in British Columbia in the last election more people voted against the Campbell autocracy than voted for it.
SOME people call that representative; I call it a dictatorship - especially when the dictator involved doesn't care about "representing" anything other than his small circle of friends.
Perhaps we could actually discuss Campbell's record - he IS still the Premier isn't he?
sanamark
3 years ago
Election results
Since 1952, with the notable exception of 2001, no party has formed a government in British Columbia with an absolute majority of the vote. Bill Bennett got pretty close in 1975, though, at 49.25%. In 1979, he got 49.76%, again pretty close. In 1996, Glen Clark formed a majority government with with 39.45% of the vote. 2001 was by far the biggest landslide since 1949.
But it looks like in 2009, we should see a landslide bigger than in 1949.
G West
3 years ago
The point is that the current government
Which you appear to support.
Is NOT representative of anyone but Gordon Campbell's friends and money backers.
If you don't know that, you clearly don't know anything about this province - I absolutely support a change in the electoral system - but don't try to pretend that we have representative democracy - we don't.
This is a kleptocracy as a matter of fact - a government bought and paid for by a tiny proportion of the population - as any honest interlocutor knows.
Campbell doesn't even make a pretense of governing for anyone but the same folks he takes free rides to Beijing with.
He is corrupt and disingenous - a man so drunk with power that he makes a decent but very ordinary leader like Carole James look like a savior.
G West
3 years ago
At least in the case of WAC Bennett
THe man made an effort to govern for the good of all British Columbians and the whole of the province - Campbell could care less about anyone outside of his small circle of West Van and Point Grey friends and his fellow travellers in the mining industry, the new car dealers association and the construction industry.
sanamark
3 years ago
GWest....
You are very clear on your views of the present government and I respect them. It seems pretty obvious that it would be practically impossible for him to from another government. We will find the definitive answer next May.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Sounds to me like you believe the system is in crisis. So do I.
The electoral system is quickly destroying our democracy as the outcome of our elections doesn't reflect popular will. Which leads to massive voter apathy making the elections themselves almost meaningless.
Any true democrat knows that for democracy to survive the electoral system must be reformed as soon as possible.
zalm
3 years ago
San(t)a's coming to town
An apt simile. The last landslide in 2005 took out BC Rail. What havoc will 2009's landslide wreak? Especially with the louts from Lausanne coming to town to rape and pillage truth and reality as they are doing in Beijing.
I can hardly wait.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Ummmm.... Huh???
G West:
From knowing your position, anything "right" of centre-left is "right-wing".
Again, to re-iterate, business, the economy and finance is certainly not your forte.
Anyhoo, to your query:
1. Lowest unemployment rates since the 1960's;
2. Doubling of residential prices since 2001 due to the demand by in the in-flow of people, among other reasons;
3. ~$13 billion in cumulative provincial surpluses, forgetting about GAAP;
4. Highest credit rating provincially after Alberta;
5. A record $169.7 billion in the Major Projects Inventory in the second half of 2008;
And on and on.
Of course, the economy is softening but will still remain relatively resilient, IMHO. Don't bother to spin it any other way... you'd be wayyy offbase anyways. :)
Now you may remember the *glory* days of 1990's... NOT ... but most other people are familiar with BC's best economic performance since the 1960's over the last five years.
To rekindle Bill Clinton's precise presidential 1992 wake-up call... "It's the economy stupid".
And you're suggesting that BC'ers think that the Carole James NDP will provide BC with some new economic miracle???
BC'ers... well most BC'ers.... ain't that dumb.
Just retroflect on anti-Liberal Alex G. Tsakumis recent CTV blog statement:
Almost every issue the Opposition has touched since 2005 has been splendidly mishandled.
Certainly a wonderful endorsement, n'est pas????
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Good 'Ol Bismarck...
Frank:
Ach, Onkel Otto.
Frank, buddy, politics in a different era say... 150 years ago ... in a different social environment... in a different country... has got nothin' to do with today's political environment in Canada or BC for that matter.
That said, Onkel Otto, the Prussian, did bring in many liberal social policies under his tenure decades before Canada even thought of 'em. Darn socialist.
The recipes for bratwurst and schnitzel have never been the same.
Bismarck certainly had a disdain for my ancestral kinfolk in Bavaria. Apparently couldn't stand them beer swillin', lederhosen wearin' hillbillies.
BTW, do ya know that the current federal German SPD (Social Democrats) are akin to the right-wing Paul Martin Liberals, as opposed to the left-wing Chretien Liberals???
Blame it, in part, on Peer Steinbrueck and his cronies. ;)
As for German dishes since Bismarck, that darn CDU chancellor Kohl always looked forward to heading home on Friday nights to his wife Hannelore's dinner of Saumagen. (Stuffed Pig Stomach).
Mmmmmmm yummy.... NOT :)
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
Yes, he said you were half-Austrian and half-man.
Do you know I gave up on your insistence of calling every political party in the world Paul Martin-ish?
zalm
3 years ago
Important story
Contrast this story with the one my church-going friend tells, of his pastor at Seattle Mennonite who supports another American to be pastor-social worker to a migrant community living in the hills above Marysville. They've been there more than 20 years with no running water, open pit toilets, shelters made from anything they can find or purchase with their meagre earnings, no health care, education or social services apart from what this church and a few members of the local American volunteers that support it can pay for. They've grown from a few dozen in the early 1980s to more than 600, and most would like to go home again, but can't afford to pay for the trip, and some haven't finished paying off the rats who smuggled them into the country in the first place. Suffice to say that the hopes of earning enough money to send home to the family hasn't come true for more than a handful, and certainly not with any consistency for any of them.
The response of INS? If they're found, they are deported and billed for costs. Better to do a crime - get deported free of charge after doing the time, and no bills either. But that's not how these people are brought up.
This is a significant story - in every country of the world does its people live upon the work of migrant farm workers. More than 70% of the world's harvest is taken in by migrant workers with the remaining 30% by farm owners. Without their work 90% of us would starve to death within 30 days.
Yet an attempt to get them better treatment in a rich First World nation produces the kind of discord we see above. How can there be any argument against fair treatment? On ANY economic grounds?
Some of you with different points of view should try eating your Lexus.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
6. Record child poverty.
7. One of the lowest minimum wages.
8. A health care system even Liberals say has gone downhill.
9. Record homelessness.
10. Falling property values.
11. Nothing for BC Rail.
12. Massive spending on ego projects that we'll be paying off for the next 50 years.
And your qualifications are? I'd like to see evidence you know more about economics than you do about politics.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Frank...
7. One of the lowest minimum wages.
8. A health care system even Liberals say has gone downhill.
9. Record homelessness.
10. Falling property values.
11. Nothing for BC Rail.
12. Massive spending on ego projects that we'll be paying off for the next 50 years.
Ergo... BC must vote NDP. ;)
Frank
3 years ago
Luke?
Ergo, put our collective fingers in our ears and vote for more of the same?
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
I'm a positive guy Luke, I like to believe people can fix problems. Unlike sanamark and realisticman I don't like to just put my head down shuffle along and tell myself that there's nothing we can do.
I would imagine all that negativity will lead to early graves, hopefully they'll snap out of it one day and believe in fixing problems instead of ignoring them.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Frank...
Best argument that I've ever heard for BC returning back to the Ontario provincial model...
Two major parties, the PC's and the Liberals.. who switch government when the other gets tired... and where the majority of the electorate lies politically anyway... with a small NDP on the left.
That's the natural Canadian political landscape anyway.
No more provincial NDP'ers running for the federal Liberals:
1. former NDP premier Ujjal Dosangh;
2. former IWA head Dave Haggard;
3. former NDP premier Dan Miller supporting Haggard;
4. former NDP MLA Bill Barlee;
5. former NDP MLA Lyle McWilliam;
And that's not including other well known BC New Democrats running for the federal Liberals.
And that's just in BC.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Frank..
I KNOW!!
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
I've been saying that here forever.
Are you calling for that?
I'm unsure of your point, please explain.
zalm
3 years ago
Bah
Lotta references on this thread to how good the provincial Liberals made things and how bad the NDP made them.
Global pulp prices above $625/tonne breakeven:
1993-2000 - 14 months
2001-1006 - 52 months
Price of benchmark crude
1991-2000 - $14-$27/bbl
2001-2007 - $22-$68/bbl
http://resources.alibaba.com/article/281180/OPEC_s_Failure_to_Control_Crude_Oil_Prices.htm
Anyone who thinks the provincial government was responsible for its own failure or success during these times is driving their car by steering with the rear view mirror. You're headed for a crash.
G West
3 years ago
Excellent point zalm
And look what Dear Leader Campbell has done with that posperity...he's pissing it away on projects for his friends, a two-week drunk in 2010 and, at the same time, a 8 year hangover on minimum wages left over from his DUI governance for everyone else.
Perhaps you missed this good news story luke:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=dfd2ba76-a465-4796-8df2-555fd75deb34
sanamark
3 years ago
Luke.....
Don't confuse the issue. If you look hard enough, you can always find the cloud in the silver lining. It is all so simple; one correct vote and all BC's problems go away.
Sheesh! Haven't you heard that often enough!
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
sanamark ...
This *cheerful* video commercial about sums it all up! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFqAqnVr2dU
sanamark
3 years ago
Come on Luke!
They are not pessimistic! It is just that the world is ending and we have to do something about it. A single vote and all our problems go away! You are simply fiddling while __________(enter community name) Burns!
Sheesh!
Frank
3 years ago
Eeyore
Its too bad most of the world is full of people like you sanamark, people that don't want to make the world a better place, instead they just want everyone to be happy with their plight.
Fortunately society is not always led by the "shrugging their shoulders and saying I give up" types like yourself.
If we were we'd still be living in caves and telling ourselves that was as good it gets.
sanamark
3 years ago
Now Frank, let's not jump to conclusions!
Frank, where did I say that? I vote in every election and do many other things in my daily life.
Other than being pessimistic, what are you doing?
G West
3 years ago
Finding the clouds in BC is only difficult
For those who walk around with their eyes shut.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
sanamarck, not to worry, I'm sure back in Dicken's England you stood around with a sign on your back telling everyone "life is grand! it can't get better than this! Enjoy!"
I assume your motto is "progress ain't what it used to be?"
sanamark
3 years ago
Now, Frank
Now, Frank, you are jumping to conclusions again. I am not a young person but you can't perforce to assume I am old enough to have been around in the England of Dickens? That would make me more than 150 years old!
And I need to see your alternatives to the democratic process, Frank. I say that we must work in the political system to affect change and that to do so, we select the candidate who best represents our interests and concerns and vote for that person.
What do you say, Frank?
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Strange, because on here you keep telling us that its pessimistic to want to make the world a better place, that it can't be done, that we want to fix problems that can't be fixed.
Sounds very much like old-world pessimism to me my good man.
Sounds like something the peasants would have been told in church centuries ago, that things won't get better in this life so instead look forward to the next one.
I find such an absence of faith in the human spirit to be sad.
We don't have to be happy with the way things are sanamark, we can believe the world can be made into a better place, all it takes is political will.
People who say it can't be done, such as yourself, are an impediment to progress and justice. But then the past is full of naysayers.
sanamark
3 years ago
That Pesky Jumping thing....
Frank, you are still jumping to conclusions.
I agree with you 100%. However, I believe that societal change is best done through the democratic process.
What I am saying is that you, Frank, are not offering an alternative better than the democratic process that we have in our country and that if we want to affect change, that is the best way to do it. If you have a better alternative, I am very open to hearing it.
Again, jumping to conclusions. I say the change is best affected through the democratic process. You, however, do not say anything. You do not offer any alternative.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Red herring? This is in response to exactly what?
Your comments suggest you are not interested in progress sanamark, you vote to block it.
Much like the propertied MPs of Victorian England, you want the conservatives to control the only process that can make changes.
You want to use political power to rollback progress that is made in spite of a conservative government.
And all the while sneer at those who think humans can build something better.
Progress will happen anyway sanamark. Like King Canute you can't hold back the tide.
Frank
3 years ago
I'm off
Anyway, I'm off to spend the afternoon horseback riding with my daughter in the rain.
I hope you don't spend the entire day sneering at others and wallowing in negativity.
sanamark
3 years ago
Jumping?
I can see why you jump to conclusions, Frank, I might have to do what the horsies.
But you still have avoided my question to you:
Other than the existing democratic process, what do you propose as a better means of social change?
sanamark
3 years ago
More Jumping to Conclusions
What does this mean? I will support any government that is legally and constitutionally elected. If I don't like it, I can vote against it. That is democracy in our context.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Illuminating post.
Confused often? I love democracy, I want to see it improved. Unlike you I voted for electoral reform and will do so again because unlike you I believe elections should reflect the wishes of the electorate. And unlike you I believe we need to bring more people into the process, not turn them away to wallow in apathy.
I even support democracy in the workplace.
You need to stop being so pessimistic that more democracy is somehow a threat to you.
It means our society is progressing whether you continue to vote against it or not.
sanamark
3 years ago
I don't understand?
I love democracy, I want to see it improved.
I also love democracy, and I want to see it improved, too. I have given you my idea of how I would like democracy improved, namely a proportional component in parliament. You, however, have not given any ideas other than attacking me personally, which makes your argument invalid.
How do you know that? Have I ever stated that I have voted against electoral reform? If I have, please show me.
I also believe exactly the same thing, Frank. What I am asking you is exactly how you wish to implement what you state in your post above, and further, which political party holds the same views.
sanamark
3 years ago
Straw Man
This is a straw man, where Frank attacks the person and not that person's ideas. Democracy is not a threat to me at all, I have never missed an election in my life. Instead of attacking me personally, I challenge you to attack what I have asked you before. That idea is:
Other than the existing democratic process, what do you propose as a better means of social change?
That democratic process can be used to do many things,Frank, such as constitutional amendments, legislation or even changing the electoral process.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
You feel attacked? Strange. I would have thought someone like you that showed up here and started attacking everyone else would be made of stronger stuff. I'm sorry to hear you can dish it out but can't take it.
I voted STV, you said you didn't like STV. Last time I checked it was the only electoral reform choice we had. I availed myself of the opportunity to try and improve our system, you either didn't or you voted for something you didn't like, which was it?
How? Democratically. What's your answer? Hoping that someday what you want will just spring out of the ground?
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
LOL you don't have any ideas. At least you've never put one forward on here. If you have ever posted an idea on here please point to where it is.
Astounding, perhaps you should support it and try and improve it?
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Not to worry sanamark, you're not the first person to show up here with no ideas and bad grammar and sneer at other people and attack their posts.
Last time you did it the Tyee slapped your wrist. I would have thought you'd have learned to engage people more respectfully by now.
sanamark
3 years ago
Correction
Again, jumping to conclusions, Frank. You correctly state that I did not like the STV system. I did not at any time state that I voted against it.
Another straw man and also a fallacious claim. I have showed you my idea that I believe the democratic process is the best way to affect social change and my preferred electoral system.
Again, jumping to conclusions using unsupported facts. I have told you many times how I believe the democratic process is the best way to improve our system. However, Frank, you continue to avoid this question:
Other than the existing democratic process, what do you propose as a better means of social change?
Frank
3 years ago
Sanamark's "ideas"
Why do we need foreign farm workers anyway? Why don't the farmers just go to Hastings Street and get workers there? That would solve the farmer's and the the homeless' problems in a single stroke.
You're right, you did have two ideas. I apologize for not taking them seriously.
How did the revolution go? Seems kind of undemocratic to me. Were you planning on liquidating all your enemies or is what you had in mind more like a peaceful coup d'etat.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Sorry sanamark, I'm going to stick with voting for STV rather than join your revolution.
So you voted for it even though you didn't like it?
sanamark
3 years ago
Straw Man
Frank, since you will not address the argument and continue to engage in straw man attacks, there is not much use in continuing.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Sorry to pee on your "revolution" sanamark. Oh well I'm not a big fan of dictators calling themselves "Lord Protector" anyway. I think I'll stick to issues like electoral reform and increasing participatory democracy.
See you in the streets, if they're not running with your enemies' blood.
G West
3 years ago
Sanamark says:
I take it this means that, if you were a German living in Germany in 1932 - 33 that you would support Hitler's government?
He was legally and constitutionally elected.
Statements like that have a way of coming back and biting the people who make them...
Frank
3 years ago
G West
LOL
Geez G, he didn't know that.
Stump
3 years ago
Luke
What's your point? A good reason why unionized workers might not all share the same political viewpoint has already been proffered. Are you just offering up some corroborating evidence?
You can pooh-pooh the terminology (war-fare) all you want and it's certainly the fashionable thing to do, but unions are a big reason there's a middle-class to forget how (and who) made the salary-man (such as your friends/family you are mentioning) in the first place. It remains an essential truth however, that the extreme positions on the 'left' are almost always a response to depradation and extreme positions on the 'right'.
Don't poke the beehive if you don't want to get stung, to put it succintly.