WOW

Thanks to the CCPA. Those are sobering figures. There's only one thing to do; send out the word, Newfanland and the Northwest Territories are the places to be, if you're broke. Pass the word around, don't splurge on that crack hit -buy a ticket and hit the road.

realisticman

You have so much scorn for those who have difficulty that it would be fitting Karma for you to live long enough to be poor, in bad health, and destitute with only enough memory left to remember that you wanted the poor to have nothing.

Really...???

And Harcourt wanted to reduce welfare lists commencing 1993 (fired Minister Smallwood) and Joy McPhail later reduced welfare rates by $45/month??

And this program would cost an additional $700 million/yr???

I think that this program would be an excellent plank for Carole James and the NDP! (just can't help but being facetious)

SIG...

The former GDR had infrastructure inclusive of original road/highway systems, telephone systems, bullet-marked/dilapidated buildings etc., etc. dating back to pre-WW2 in 1990.

Literally trillions of dollars have been transferred from the old BRD into the old GDR since 1990.

Many West Germans now wish that the Berlin Wall never came down in 1989! It's cost them a considerable amount in additional taxes.

The problem's root stems from the post-1945 Soviet zone. Had that never transpired, the social market economy and the "Wirtschaftswunder" would have also encompassed the former provinces of the GDR, which would have prevented the mess in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirtschaftswunder

Selfishness has no boundaries

Luke skywalker:

I guess some selfish people live in Germany too. It's a good thing that their leadership has had the good sense to recognise the needs of their poor cousins, neices and nephews and do what is morally correct.

Now, we just need our country to behave the same. And, if the country won't do it, we must start with our province.

Dear Claude

I rarely comment on stories anywhere, though when I do I always take the time to formulate and express a viewpoint which counters the argument presented. However, in this case, I I cannot conceive of anything to say aside from telling you to go [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.].

EDITED FOR LEGAL CONCERNS Richmond ...

... not the article's author.

Germany

Does 'many' mean more than three and less than five?

I take it this is another wikipedia gem.

Germany happens to be the world's third largest economy and by far the largest in Europe. Some readers might find the US State Department's website an interesting place to read about Germany, though, for the life of me, I can't understand what it has to do with this subject.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3997.htm#econ

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

G West

As for Tom Christensen's Ministry

I think I'll take the word of Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond (and by extension, Ted Hughes) on that:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/27/bc-turpelreport.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/04/16/bc-child-death-review.html

And this:

http://www.campaign2000.ca/rc/pdf/BCchildPovertyReport07.pdf

Please note the graph on page 4 - among other things.

Not much to be proud of, in my view.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

G West

Harmonizing rates?

Yes, let’s do that and while we’re at it, let’s pick the highest rates in every category because of course, no one living on taxpayer funded assistance should settle for less than they already get. And then, let’s wake up the next morning and start the discussion about how beer and cigarettes in certain jurisdictions cost more, so some welfare recipients need more than others, so we can get closer to the left wing/Tyee nirvana of how everybody can get more of somebody elses…..sheesh

CityPerson

She should, yes.

Well I know you wouldn't for her. She'd have to criminalize welfare for you to do that.

NoLeftNutter

Aren't you the one always yelling "huzzah" when a tax gets cut or a regulation gets tossed or a union gets run roughshod over?

gargler campbell is a joke

I want all of you commenters to think about this.

Gargler campbell and all goverment and all mlas receive, WAIT FOR IT-----21.000.00 a year for (HOUSING)

THATS RIGHT -they get 21 grand for housing.The money is for when they are in victoria when the bc legislature is open, 5 months a year,providing there is a fall session.

These politicos get TRIPLE the amount that a welfare person and thats just for part time housing!

If they deem that they need 21.000.00 for a few months of housing == What a joke to expect anyone to survive in this province with 8000.00 for -food-shelter-transport-[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.].

errata

to compare with 2006.

I always find it fascinating

I always find it fascinating when people scream against the poor and unions, while admire the biggest thieves and crooks, who are causing all the worldwide misery, millions of starvation deaths, yet governments still sell their own citizens under their rule to be trampled over and enslaved.

I wonder how many multinational carpetbagger directorships will Claude and Gordie be rewarded with after their political life?

Ed Deak.
=====================================

May 4, 2008

Giant agribusinesses are enjoying soaring earnings and profits out of the world food crisis which is driving millions of people towards starvation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/multinationals-make-billions-in-profit-out-of-growing-global-food-crisis-820855.html

Richmond was a Socred

Probably because of :

On the bright side for those who hate people on welfare, prostitution is up. No doubt the same people are happy about that.

Abuse

Its good to know that there are people at this very moment googling stats from the Fraser Inst proving that kids whose mothers turn to prostitution end up voting Liberal by a 4:1 margin.

Let them eat cake!

Yes, it appears it's time to start chopping the heads of the imperialists and elitists residing in Victoria. Maybe then they will start to understand that true public service does not mean self-serving opportunism.

Luke

Apparently you think the problem with the poor is they have too much money.

Must make it easy to sleep at night.

Frank...

Absolutely not.

Unless every other province increases their welfare rates 50% concurrently, BC would realize the negative effects of other people moving to BC.

It happened during the early 1990's.

And that's not good public policy.

Luke

Absolutely true. You have not written one word against the Liberal policy on welfare in BC. You made a choice and decided to support it.

Meaning you prefer to see people living in poverty because you think it discourages others from coming here.

No, you believe good public policy is making kids and their mums live in poverty.

Frank

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

... distinguish between those genuinely in need and the chronic nest soilers that have burned their brains out with substance abuse. They each have to be dealt with differently.

I suspect that those genuinely in need would not be moving from province to province just to collect higher welfare rates. On the other hand the scum of the earth would be flocking here in a hurry if you jacked up the rates.

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

snert

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

snert

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

The poor

Using Stats Can figures BC, 'the best place on earth' had the highest child poverty rate in Canada for the fourth year in a row, despite the booming provincial economy.

The proportion of children living in poverty in BC was 20.9%, significantly above the national child poverty rate of 16.8%.

There were an estimated 174,000 poor children in BC in 2005. That was more than the combined populations of the cities of Victoria, Nanaimo, and Comox.

Nice. Suppose that'll be front and centre on any of Vanoc's bumpf.

Somehow the Campbell programme doesn't seem to be working for anyone who really needs some help.

What have they been doing for the last 7 years?

I notice the steelworkers have finally gone over the forests minister's head to demand an audience with the CEO himself about the destruction of the industry in the province.

Good luck to them - I wonder if Coleman will get a gold star this month or not? I notice not a word about the meeting on the Ministry website this morning:
http://www.gov.bc.ca/for/

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

G West

Retread Socreds

Amen to that, moodyguy, and well said.

And yes, a great article by Andrew Macleod.

Geez

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

Besides...

We all ready have the best corporate welfare rates in the country...

snert

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS - TYEE MODERATOR

NLN

Where are you getting that lynn says there's 134,000 homeless?

Just not serious enough to the Right for them to want to stop it from growing.

Claude Richmond is a fool.

Claude Richmond is a fool.

Canada is lost to the people. It is now controlled by corporations. We really need a revolution to give the country back to the people and help them.

Capitalism has destroyed us.

Well, lest...

...it need be said, I'm with Sharing Is Good and Lynn, certainly rather than these nonut wingy-dingies. :-)

The most elaborate, well funded and least whined about from the nonut rightists welfare schemes such as exist everywhere under their very noses within capitalism, are invariably the corporate welfare schemes-, in the form of those tax benefitted and write-off, government grants and guaranteed loans, research and development grants, White Knight failing corporate rescue packages underwritten by the publicly funded bourgeois state, of course, and free from the taxman ill gotten gains often hidden in off-shore account schemes such as favour the rich of our ruling class. What is but available to the poorest and most damaged and self medicating of the working class amongst us, is but little more than such crumbs that fall from the table of these corporate bum favoured few, and which the working class even in good times had to fight, strike and yes, die for the snippet of a share from.

The crocodile tears shed here about "abuses of public monies" by this nonut herd is but meant as a distraction from the real rip-offs as occur by the ruling class patrons they bow down, bend the knee, and suck the limp macaroni noodle of.

They don't give a real rat's ass about publicly funded welfare schemes, so long as it goes only to the already rich "investor" ruling class and not the working class, and those most damaged by the system amongst us. The ruling class need "incentives" to get them off their privileged white asses, of course, whilst it is the poor that need a "smack-down" and to be brutalized into homelessness and prostitution to get them off theirs. They don't understand that what works for the goose most likely will also work for the gander, when it comes down to the issues of the class war.

They are as full of poop now, as they have ever been. It is only the most gullible amongst the working class as would buy into their crap.

It's a class war taking shape out here. Hunker down and get ready for it. These guys serve the "other" side. They are the enemy amongst us. Straight up fact of life.

Thanks for the bone to chew on, "Tyee-The Tame One." :-) lol

Addendum...

And if I'd seen his comment before my above, I would have included no1important in with SharingIsGood and Lynn.

G West's post - and thanks

Thanks Lynn and Canis Latrans

RE: G West's post:
I wish to encourage everyone who has not looked at G West's links in his post above to do so, I found the information very informative and pertinent:

Thanks G West

anyone curious --watch the bc legislature channel

election amendment act being debated right now--or watch the webcast-hansard broadcasting on the web

Ohhh Geee West.... and Your Alter Ego Lynn

Yep, Social Services minister Joy McPhail introduced the 3 - month residency requirement 'cause she... well just felt like it. :)

As for the rental assistance program

Surely you jest. Have you actually taken the trouble to look at the Rental Assistance Program and its rates of support? - Furthermore, it's only available to working people so it does absolutely nothing for people on welfare or for the homeless. And, it doesn't apply to individuals at all whether working or not.

I think perhaps you need to look into some of these alleged assistance programs a little more closely.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

Still no evidence

Instead of calling people names and implying that anyone is my alter ego - or Lynn's for that matter - could you just once actually come up with something other than spin?

I don't believe people move anywhere to go on welfare and I wager if you'd ever BEEN on welfare that you might understand why your remarks are so fundamentally offensive toward your fellow human beings.

And you don't have a single shred of positive evidence that they do.

The fact of the matter is that you never actually confront the inconsistencies in your belief system and instead resort to the kind of thing you posted last night and again this evening.

As I wrote then, there is simply no point in responding to anything you say. You may be a member of the same clique to which Erik Bornmann belonged when he lived in the province, who knows?

This thread is about a stupid and insensitive man who is meant to have the responsibility for caring and helping people in this province who are in dire need of help. God knows there are enough of them and their straits are increasingly dire.

Instead of addressing their needs he makes foolish and ad hominem remarks about them.

I heard him actually make these statements on the CBC last week and I also heard the reaction of listeners to him thereafter.

Believe me, he was universally condemned.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

Oh and by the way

This statement of yours about BC's picayune Rental Assistance Program is also incorrect:

In fact, the Rental Assistance Program was launched in October 2006 as part of Housing Matters BC.

If you care to take the time you can read all about it here:

http://www.bchousing.org/programs/Housing_Matters_BC

You'll see the usual picture of the CEO and find some nice words about how he wants to break the cycle of homelessness.

How's THAT project coming, by the way? Pretty much the same way the attack on poverty is going I guess.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

Neo-liberalism in Manitoba

Luke Skywalker:

Again, I have ask, why do you think the government of Manitoba in neo-liberal? Please don't just quote your book review.

Jimmy...

Ya have to first understand the concept of neo-liberalism, which is also akin to British Labour's Tony Blair's Third Way.

A couple of examples, you can find more:

http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article93

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:GybvB9XYus0J:auto_sol.tao.ca/node/1416+Manitoba+%22neoliberal%22+NDP&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=30&gl=ca

Luke, you've made my day

Luke Skywalker:

Haha! You're referencing a Trotskyist online magazine about neo-liberalism?! That hilarious! Not just because you seem to feel that's a reliable source, but also because you of all people quotes it.

Oh, wait, what else have you got there? A link to Google archive of an article from "Canadian Labour Today" with the words "NDP", "neoliberal", and "Manitoba" highlighted. You've obviously just googled these three words and linked to whatever you could find (which was obviously very little). Haha! At least learn to cover your tracks :)

I am now convinced. You haven't the slightest clue whether or not the Manitoba NDP's policies have been neo-liberal or not. You just read a review of that "Paradigm Shift" book a while back (though you've obviously not read the book), and cut-and-pasted some quotes from it (as you did on this thread: http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/05/01/Boomerang/).
And you then go about claiming Manitoba's government is neo-liberal, by appeal to authority.

OK Jimmy...

The Manitoba NDP is a socialist party in governance... happy now? :)

My dear Luke Skywalker, that's much better, thank you

Thanks for finally giving credit where credit is due and backing off from whatever it was you were up to.

No one gains when language is degraded and words become meaningless.

Every person who actually believes in social justice and effective humanism should be proud to wear the label of democratic socialist.

Unlike the United States, where to call someone a 'liberal' is tantamount to swearing at them, Canada (and most of the rest of the civilized world) has a proud tradition of democratic socialism.

Thank God. Implying that the few socialist governments which have been elected in this country and have helped to make it a more decent place for all to live is a neo-liberal exercise is complete nonsense - no matter who suggests it.

Unfortunately, as recent events in Great Britain have shown, New Labour really isn't entitled to wear the rose any longer. The results of the latest elections there indicate that when the people of Great Britain have to chose between two right wing parties they’ll usually opt for the Conservatives. We have the same situation here in Canada – it really doesn’t matter which right wing party you vote for – the Prime Minister will be either a Liberal or Stephen Harper.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

And If I May Add...

The Manitoba NDP is just as socialist as Tony Blair's Labour government Third Way was and Gerhard Schroeder's Social Democrat Middle Way in Germany.

Hmmmmmmm Third Way,Middle Way equates to neo-liberalism? Couldn't be!

Manitoba Gary Doer's support for the war in Iraq?

Not even Gerhard Schroeder went that far! :)

Luke Skywalker

I'm sorry, there's simply no point in discussing anything serious with someone whose primary purpose seems to be to emasculate the English language to the extent that further discussion is meaningless.
That's one of the problems with the internet - it provides such easy access to incorrect, fallacious and manipulative information that facts are frequently conflated with fiction. That and, of course, the ability of politically motivated 'editors' on resources like Wikipedia to massage the message in ways such as the Erik Bornmann debacle illustrated. Furthermore, even our absent interlocutor from SFU may well be having his work maligned simply because the only concrete information which has been provided from his views is a tiny and probably out of context quote.
I certainly haven’t read his book and, from the tenor of your remarks, it does not appear that you have either. Consequently, further mention of him is also futile.

I hope Skookum 1 will stop by - he could provide an ever more sobering explication of the phenomenon than did the short piece I posted recently from Public Eye Online.

Tony Blair and 'New Labour' are not and never were socialist (they certainly were out for power and their affectation for ASBO’s [http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030038_en_1] is a pretty good clue about what they’ve done with it. Whether or not they are neo-liberal is a reasonable subject of discussion - simply checking off the characteristics they share in common with other neo-liberal administrations would be an excellent way to start. Sadly, neither the penchant for ASBOs instead of actual community building; the affection for CS surveillance instead of actual neighbourhood policing has done nothing for the ‘character’ of British towns and cities or the state of rampant crime….

Believe me, self-respecting social democrats have little that's good to say about Tony Blair - he is only barely tolerable when compared with Margaret Thatcher.

Furthermore, you have still not provided a single particle of evidence that people move anywhere for welfare. Why not?

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

SIG...

Well that was not the only motivation.

Since August, 1989, people were fleeing East Germany for West Germany for a better life in West Germany ever since the barrier between Hungary and Austria came down.

The West German government had grave concerns after 1989 that a mass migration woul result into West Germany and , in fact, a million+ people did migrate.

Following the same logic, if BC had the highest welfare rates in Canada, migration from other parts of Canada to BC will naturally occur as it did in the 1990's.

Nope. But attempting to fix one problem by potentially creating other problems is not an answer either.

Canis

How about a little side wager? You can have as many of your working class heroes as you like and let me have as much money as I’d like and we’ll see who can generate the most productive circumstances in any time frame you like, winner takes all.

"Strangely enough, that

"Strangely enough, that reminds me exactly of the former Socialist Unity Party in East Germany between 1947 and 1989." [b]Writes Loose With The Facts Luke.[/b]

Not that I much care what it sounds like to you Luke, but actually, in my view, my piece to which you refer could well apply to both, so-called "communism/socialism" AND so-called "free market capitalism", both of which were/are neither their claim-, but different manifestations of similar class systems. Both maintained/maintain their pretences at being "democracies", which neither were/are either, of course.

"Ordinary folks" in motion and seizing power for themselves at ALL levels of society, within the economy and such political institutions as may be needed, which both capitalism AND communism were themselves, for a very brief time in the "revolution phases" of their separate histories, is, if it can be maintained beyond those initial "heady days", the antithesis of both capitalism and so-called communism. Which is going to be "the trick" in the coming struggles going on in capitalism, now at its globalized corporate phase of development, no doubt and no less than it was then.

The question being, of course, have "the masses" sufficiently matured in their level of understanding to see through all attempts that will be made to disguise and reconfigure the re-emergence of the "class system", in whatever form it seeks to re-manifest itself?

I hope so..., but also understand that there are no guarantees in life. Toward which end, we nonetheless continue to need to move in society-, if the most intransigent problems of capitalism, the environment and society in general are to ever have any hope of resolution.

Luke

Which is obviously more important to you than the benefits it would provide for the recipients.

Who cares?

Again, who cares?

There are two sides to helping poor kids and their parents? No there isn't. On the one hand you have people needing assistance and on the other hand you have people googling 15 year old policies.

You have not uttered one word against the Liberal cuts to welfare in spite of considerable opportunity to do so. Ergo, you support them.

Neo-liberal

You're still using this phrase to refer to democratic socialists in spite of no one else in the world (Trotskyites excepted) doing so.

Gary

Yes, the armed forces is crying out for 55 year old men sleeping next to dumpsters, the disabled and 4 year old kids eating Kraft dinner.

Perhaps if Stephen starts up the Harper-Youth we'll get free daycare?

NoLeftNutter

Sure, I'll take that bet. I'll be interested in seeing what you can actually build that provides a benefit without hiring any workers.

Good luck with that.

Quote:"...when it comes to

'Cause they are true believers in the system, with the religiosity of the most naive, for all their pretences behind their right wing kind of populism?

Your point needed to be made, bro. And a good one it is. :-)

NLN

Agreed! But while I know where the working class "heroes" will come from, where is your money coming from? You gonna rob a bank?

CCRF

And my copy of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms says "mobility rights" are guaranteed.

Welfare Hike Would Make BC 'Magnet'

Claude get your head out of the sand or where ever it is. To suggest that many people aspire to living on a princely $915 a month is foolish; especially when one looks at the raise you so generously awarded yourself recently. A raise of several times the amount a person on Income Assistance is expected to live on for a year.
As a disable person I was on Income Assistance, unfortunately the nature of my disabilities are such that they do not qualify me as a disabled person according to your Straight Jacket rules. It seems very few of the disabled can prove they are sufficiently disabled to qualify but, be able to boast you have the rate certainly helps your standing among those that agree with you and feel that anyone one should be able to live on $610 a month. Try it yourself before you make more of a fool of yourself and comment on BC becoming a magnet for many if the rates are raised to even a survival level.

RICHMOND AND ALL THAT {deleted for legal reasons}

Luke Skywalker:

"BTW, he was also actually the general manager of Kamloops radio station CHNL from 1978 to 1982."

I'll admit I wasn't aware of that. However, the truth is that many management jobs in BC are examples of what American organizational analysts once described as "upward failure". And my point, in case I wasn't explicit enough, is that this man is a nut, plain and simple. I hope that's not too libellous!

Sheeesh !!!

When you guys quote someone, do you obey some unwritten rule that says you can't tell us who you are quoting?

The Message is CLEAR

If you are poor get the HELL outa BC!!!

Thanx that is so democratic..

That really makes me think whats next?

FIRING SQUADS!

Frank

Nowhere in my comment did I refer to those you have spun into the conversation. It specifically says "welfare bums". In case you don't know who they are let me tell you. They are a type of person who are perfectly capable of doing an honest days work. They are so astute at manipulating the system that they can remain in it forever. They show up a doctors' offices a couple of days before welfare Wednesday and cry the blues to some doctor who hasn't figured out the reason they are in his office. Then in the middle of the month when they have exhausted their booze or drug money they go back to get prescriptions. Which they sell on the street for inflated prices. These are the Three Day Millionaires I'm talking about. So I suggest you go back and find my comment and re-read it to get your facts straight.

Career Aspirations!

Yes, I'm sure thousands' career goal is to try and milk the system!

Then again is not BC a corporate welfare magnet too? But that's for their circle of friends isn't it!

Yes some manage to scam the system, but most would rather be doing anything else! Until you have had to stand in a food bank line because the welfare cheque does not stretch far enough to cover rent, food, bus pass, phone (how else are they going to tell you got the job you applied for), electricity (in order to write your resume and heat your shelter; cook your food), medicine when you are ill, and so on.

Most welfare money is actually a multiplier in the local economy and is spent locally, supporting local businesses. And some of those businesses are liquor stores! And who wouldn't succumb to an addiction? Especially when you stand in the welfare line!

Gary

Show me where you differentiated between types of people, or am I supposed to be a mind reader and know your code words?

Also, since you know there's "plenty of them" where would I look for information confirming that?

Gary

You sound to me like someone who has a lot of information about folks you describe as follows:

Would it be unfair of me to ask you to actually identify these people you are so familiar with?

Because if you can, a public-spirited citizen like yourself shouldn't hold back -get out there and report these gold-brickers to the authorities.

They should be thrown in irons and incarcerated immediately.

Unfortunately the average cost per person per day at the crowbar hotel is around $180.72.

When you really have some insights into a serious and growing problem in this country I'll chech back with you.

I'm always very suspicious of anyone who uses words like 'type of person' it reminds me of several rather unpleasant historical parallels.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

"Welfare bums"

Since the gov't refuses to help half the people that beg for assistance am I to believe the Socred talking point that both scammers and the needy get assistance?

If so, what type are the other half asking for help and getting nothing? The not-truly needy?

G West

I'm upset enough about these manipulations to inform you that two of these "bums" are my own sons. Three more live in an entirely different area of the province and are my not too distant neighbours. I don't go to a doctor very often but when I do the same three are there. And they talk in the waiting room.

Frank: I don't expect you to be in my head. Just read it. If my thoughts don't come across, so be it. Sometimes yours don't either.

You'd be happier to have them in jail?

I'm sorry to hear you have such a troubling problem in your own family... I won't say a word about the genesis of the problem in your case. I think you should remember that your post is, all things being equal, a pretty good example of moving from the particular to the general.

Deal?

I will say this, a lot of people - both men and women - seem to go through a rough patch in the process of growing up - it isn't always a matter of chronological age.

Sometimes I even see signs of it here!

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

G West

Frank...

Again, I agree that poverty is a sad reflection upon society.

But just to juxtapose, the neo-liberal (yes, just kiddin' earlier) Manitoba NDP:

About 51,000 Manitoba children live in poverty, according to the council's 2007 report card on poverty, released Monday.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/11/26/mba-child-poverty.html

OTOH:

manufacturing sector will see its corporation capital tax wiped out this July - two years earlier than planned.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/04/09/5241046-cp.html

The same corporation capital tax wiped out in BC.

Quote:That really makes me

FIRING SQUADS!

If these neoconazis have their way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele

There is a need to study the mentality of these "superior" beings and their attitudes toward they expose here, of their attitudes toward what they perceive as the "untermenschen". They have to hide their full intent behind a thin gauze of concern for the rule of "law and order" in the ruling system, of course, and so-called facts and figures stripped of all humanity. (Their Nazi mentors were as well obsessive book-keepers and "protocol obsessives".) But if you study them here over even a little bit of time, they become obvious enough in who they are, their attitudes, and what they really want politically and by way of social engineering.

Our modern neoconazis have honed, fine tuned and reconfigured the face they show the world, to fit the times. They are stupid, but possessed of a certain animal instinct cunning.

Gary and all that Jazz

Gary

Nowhere in my comment did I refer to those you have spun into the conversation. It specifically says "welfare bums". In case you don't know who they are let me tell you. They are a type of person who are perfectly capable of doing an honest days work. They are so astute at manipulating the system that they can remain in it forever. They show up a doctors' offices a couple of days before welfare Wednesday and cry the blues to some doctor who hasn't figured out the reason they are in his office. Then in the middle of the month when they have exhausted their booze or drug money they go back to get prescriptions. Which they sell on the street for inflated prices. These are the Three Day Millionaires I'm talking about. So I suggest you go back and find my comment and re-read it to get your facts straight.

It's ironic that Gary's post ended with a demand that someone else "get [their] facts straight. For as everyone know, there are no facts whatsoever in Gary's own post, just some corny, well-worn imagery that we've all heard before. The details Gary made up himself out of whole cloth, but the basic picture is familiar to anyone who used to read reports of California Gubernatorial candidate Ronald Reagan pouting about "welfare queens" forty years ago.

It's also the kind of silly bugger material that Claude Richmond used to spout to his fellow staffers down at the radio station. Maybe if Gary continues to endear himself to the right people (and I do mean right) he can become Speaker of the Legislature for a few years, and then a Cabinet Minister.

Gary

I'm sorry to hear that. But I have to ask, if your sons are capable, how are they able to get through the process and not be part of the 49% that is refused assistance? Because god knows I've seen people that have been refused and I can't for the life of me see why.

I sincerely apologize for jumping on you.

Luke

Manitoba does have a very high native population and we're all well aware of how badly the natives have been treated and how poverty is endemic among that population.

Regardless, I have not lived in Manitoba, and unlike you I have not championed Gary Doer and I again have to ask, what does Manitoba have to do with Campbell's cuts to welfare?

All I get from your post is that corporate tax cuts and rising poverty seem to go hand in hand.

Shallow Minds

Does anybody actually believe this hogwash

Nobody would want to milk the system
more its measily pitance they get on welfare
you people are so cusioned on your high
falutan salaries that you cant imagine
what that would be like..

I especailly am concerned about the
comment made in reference to the individuals
who MILK the system. how unlikely dude
you need to see a shrink!!! there is no
such a thing, and besides there are no
doctors that would allow what you describe..

No wonder we are in trouble with SHALLOW
minds like that!!!!!

mil de sestem

If I was gonna milk de system

I would follow the example laid out
by the

Honerable Bill Vanderzam

There are some other ex mayors of Vancouver
that we could learn from as well..

STOP PICKING ON THE POOR, start looking
in your own backyard for the piles of
turd you and your friends are leaving
behind...

RIGHT!

Does anybody really believe this?

Come on man, the real welfare problem
is the way we give money away to feed
people in other countries while we
neglect our own. We are a wealthy
country who should NOT have to be
bickering on whats the difference
between whether we should be giving
our poor 1/2 or 1/3 of the whats
considered below the poverty level.

ok that was a really long sentence
but I had to get that out.

enough of this and lets fix this
problem without creating more.

we need to be at our best by 2010
if we are going to show the world
that we are in fact CANADA!!

NOTICE...

These skywalking wingnuts will still not address the issue of the corporate welfare system that is in place for the wealthy. They dance about, spin, moon and shite upon the poor, but no matter how you rub their faces in it, they will NOT attack the most elaborate and biggest goody filled piggy trough that is in place for the wealthy corporate ruling class.

Read these dips and understand.

They are the problem and the enemy. One does not discuss with these guys. One deals with them-, in good time, in good time.

They hate you and hold you in contempt here. There is no denying it. The working class and its poorest, to them, is less than dog doo doo on the lawn. Whilst they fawn, stroke and bend over with dropped drawers to touch their toes for the ruling class.

You don't need a degree in psychology, sociology or political science to understand where these guys are coming from. It's elementary, dear Watson.

Ohh Canis...

I assume that you are taking a swipe at me. Cool!

If you believe that corporations are evil, then that's your right.

But you also apparently don't understand who mainly owns the shares and are the beneficiaries of corporations:

1. Union/government pension funds on behalf of their membership/employees;

2. Moms/ Pops, and seniors, through their mutual funds and RRSP's;

I wouldn't categorize these people as the wealthy as you suggest.

Perhaps all corporations should be nationalized as advocated by the old far left ???

The wealthy? Inclusive of the champagne centre-left?

As in labour supporting wealthy New Democrat Gregor Robertson's mayoral run for centrist Vision Vancouver? (an excellent candidate BTW)

As in wealthy New Democrat David Levi's Growthworks, who was also asked to run for VV's mayoral candidacy?

http://www.growthworks.ca/ourteam/management/dlevi.aspx

As in wealthy John Laxton (former BC Hydro chair) who was asked to run for the BC New Democrat leadership in 1984?

You must have some knowledge that wealthy folk and philanthropists are involved in, and donate to, many organizations and societies to assist the poor and society in general?

You are right in that regard.

It took:

1. 10 years for the people to overthrow the one-party socialist state of Poland by 1989;

2. 10 months for the people to overthrow the one-party socialist state of Hungary by 1989;

3. 10 weeks for the people to overthrow
the one-party socialist state of East Germany by 1989;

4. 10 days for the people to overthrow the one-party socialist state of Czechoslovakia by 1989;

5. 10 hours for the people to overthrow the one-party socialist state of Romania in 1989 with Ceauşescu receiving a bullet in the head on Christmas Day, 1989;

Oh man, read the above... you are out to lunch.

BTW, in Germany, the social democrats are the centre-left party. Further on the left is Die Linke (The Left) and one of its members made this recent statement:

Christel Wegner, elected deputy for Die Linke stated:

"I think that if a new society was created, we would need such an organisation (as the Stasi) again, because we would have to protect ourselves against reactionary forces trying to weaken the state from within," she told ARD.

http://africa.reuters.com/world/news/usnL1834833.html

COOL!

Executing fascists in the 20th century

Don't forget how long it took for the Sandanistas to drive out the US-backed capitalist Somoza regime in Nicaragua.

And how long it took Fidel to overthrow the capitalist Batista gov't.

And how long it took the capitalist Chilean gov't of Pinochet to go from ruling to on-the-run?

And while we're in Latin America let's not forget the other friends of western conservatives like Duvalier, the Argentine junta (you may remember them from such movies as Let's Invade the Falklands), the nun-killing butchers of El Salvador etc.

In fact there's been so many capitalists mistreating and shooting their people in Latin America over the past 100+ years it would take days to compile them all.

And of course almost 6 years to bring down the uber-capitalist German state in 1945.

Not to mention that the other fascist-capitalists in Hungary, Italy, Romania and Bulgaria lasted even less.

How long did the capitalist-fascist state of Spain last after Franco died? By the way, Franco is still dead.

While we're in the Iberian Peninsula let's not forget the 30 years or so to force out the ruling fascist-capitalists of the Portugese empire in Mozambique and Angola once Frelimo and the MPLA took up arms. Portugese fascism hung on to the family jewels with western conservative support for decades.

China's fascist gov't didn't seem to last too long against Mao's tiny resistance group. 12 years wasn't it to take over the most populated country in the world?

Meanwhile in the Middle East and Asia we still have fascist-capitalist states all over the place. Most of them owing their existence to the Brits or the USA and all of them on life-support until the oil money runs out. Wonder how long afterwards it will be called "Saudi" Arabia? A day?

Huh?

Are you claiming the average joe owns most of the shares of the corporate sector? That'll be news to the bottom 80% of this country for sure. And apparently all those poor mums and pops haven't been receiving the dividend cheques they're owed.

From Don Drummond at the Toronto Dominion

...

While holdings of private pension assets of the wealthy make up roughly the same proportion of total assets as for the population in general (31.5% versus 29.0%), a far greater number of families within this group hold these assets (95.1% as compared to 70.6% for the entire population). For financial assets held outside of pension assets, the wealthiest 20% have greater holdings of stock. For example in 2005, stocks made up 2.7% of total assets of the highest quintile which is more than 6 times as large as the share held by the second wealthiest group. In fact, slightly more than one-quarter of the families in highest quintile own stocks as compared to just 9.9% for the population in general. Another fundamental difference is that the highest quintile is more likely to have ownership in a business enterprise. The share of total assets for the highest quintile stands at 15.2%, nearly 5 percentage points higher than for the population in general.

I find it strange that people with a worth of around $1,000 own the Cdn corporate sector through their non-existent RRSPs.

Stasi

Thank God we in the West don't need organizations to protect us. I wake up every morning thankful that things like CSIS, the FBI, CIA, DIA etc etc and bloody etc don't exist and aren't needed.

From Jim Stanford of the CAW

But just in case anyone confuses tokenism with true empowerment, here are ten good ways to determine whether you really do own the company you work for:

10. The company limo pulls up en route to the annual shareholders' meeting - and the driver asks you to fill it up with regular.

9. You love the view from the top-floor executive suite, especially at night - which is when you empty the wastebaskets up there.

8. The company presents you a unique, personalized business card. You punch it into the time clock every morning when you get to work.

7. You ask the receptionist to hold all your calls - and she says, "What calls?"

6. Your quarterly dividend cheque reads, "Amounts under $2 will be neither refunded nor collected."

5. The real boss belongs to the Canadian Club and the Dominion Club. You belong to Club Z and Costco.

4. You have a corner office, all right: the security hut, right in the corner of the parking lot.

3. Fifty percent of your dining and entertainment expenses are tax-deductible - as long as you keep the Tim Horton's receipt.

2. You don't have monogrammed cuffs on your shirt. But you do have your whole name ("Billy") embroidered right there on the pocket.

And here's the Number One way to tell that you don't really own the company: After a lifetime of service, your executive retirement package is called the CPP.

Frank...

Firstly, pre-WW2 European society had a liberal democratic tradition, eg, Germany, Czechoslovakia, etc., etc, etc.

During that era there were also relatively strong extremist parties from both the hard right and the hard left, Nazis, fascists, communists... you name it.

Even both the US and Canada had extremist parties during that same time frame as well as extremist unions in terms of the Wobblies.

In both societies, these extremist elements eventually waned, were despised, and eventually disposed of.

Over time, European social democrat parties even disposed of their quasi-marxist platforms (Germany in the late 1950's) and moved to the middle ground.

Tony Blair's British Labour Party "the Third Way" and Gerhard Schroeder's SPD "the Middle Way" provide even more pronound examples of same.

South America is a whole different can of worms. That society is extremely pronounced in terms of both its rich and poor... no real middle class.

That society is also pronounced in terms of both its historical hard right/ hard left military dictatorships.

Not much similarity between Europe/North America at all in the modern era.

Costa Rica has always been the most stabile of South American countries and Chile, Argentina, Brazil, among others, are
also relatively stable liberal democracies.

Cuba, Venezuala, Bolivia? Hard left single party (or becoming) dictatorships. Based upon history (Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua), how long do you think that will last??

China... excellent example... it now has a market economy but still with the old one-party state under the guise of the Communist Party. How long do you think that will last??

Frankly, over time, everything moves to the centre/middle and the fascist hard right and communist hard left becomes discarded and a footnore in history.

Pathetic

Although I would have thought that it would be glaringly obvious, the purpose of my last post was not to characterise the Manitoba NDP's style of governing, but rather intended to point out how full of sh*t you are.

Oh really! Normally I'd ask why you think this is the case and to back up your statement, but I won't bother since it's pretty clear you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Buy a dictionary. Seriously. This is pathetic.

More lies

Luke Skywalker:

Neither of these countries are single party dictatorships, nor are they becoming single party dictatorships.

Frank...Huh? Huh? Huh?

You're not googling the right information and you obviously misunderstand.

Most of society doesn't own stock/bonds but most own mutual funds througn their RRSP's. Are you saying you don't have any RRSP's and don't own mutual funds through 'em???

Do you know where the funds for Canada Pension cheques come from?

Do you know where the funds for union pension cheques come from?

Do you know where the funds for insurance settlements come from?

etc., etc., etc.

These pension plans/ insurance plans, etc. invest a good chunk of their funds in equity markets (ie. capital stock/bonds) and receive annualized returns through same.

Close to home, here's the BC Invetment Management Corp. with $83.4 billion under administration. Do you understand its function?

http://www.bcimc.com/investments/assetmix.asp

Heck, anyone who wants to fool around with these institutions will definitely see a revolution on their hands by the beneficiaries... that is...most of the general public at large.

Frank... Stasi

That's not funny.

You should have had some personal experience with the Gestapo (Nazis) and the Stasi (Communists).

Knocks on your door in the middle of the night, taken to prison, not allowed to attend univsersities, take jobs, have accomodation, etc.

Half of society under surveillance... friends, family, acquaintances narking to the secret police under fear. Cool!

My relatives did.

And Germany still has its federal police (FBI), and intelligence services (CIA) just like Canada.

Ohhhh Jimmy...

From knowledgeable people within Manitoba...

University of Winnipeg political science professor Joan Grace:

Like a lot of successful social democratic leaders, he’s understood that old left-right politics is just not on anymore.

“He’s maintained some of the legislation and some of the centre-right politics of previous Conservative governments,” says Joan Grace. “Balanced budget legislation, facilitating and encouraging Manitoba’s economic competitiveness … He’s even maintained Filmon’s income security legislation, which is basically workfare.

He’s been basically our Tony Blair, if you take the Iraq war out of the picture, obviously," she says. "He’s been that sort of Third Way politician.”

There are always certain of those... criticizing him for some of his spending,”

Certainly people in the poverty movement, who want more investment in housing and a provincial poverty strategy.

http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20070524_111541_5896&source=srch

Doer endorsed Tony Blair's leadership of the British Labour Party in 1997.

[Dan Lett, "Doer closes in on the do-it stage", Winnipeg Free Press, 16 November 1997]

Doer's own 1999 election platform was frequently compared with Blair's "Third Way" of social democracy.

["NDP redraws image for voters", Winnipeg Free Press, 16 December 1998]

Former Manitoba NDP MLA Cy Gonick released a critical essay about Doer in 2007, describing him as a "small-l liberal" without "a socialist bone in his body"

http://canadiandimension.com/articles/2007/06/28/1190/

About 51,000 Manitoba children live in poverty, according to the council's 2007 report card on poverty, released Monday.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/11/26/mba-child-poverty.html

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/04/09/5241046-cp.html

Now if that is not quasi neo-liberal, I don't know what is. :)

Correction...

The support for the military mission in Afghanistan. But to you what's the diff?

Ohhhhhh Jimmy...

Neither of these countries are single party dictatorships, nor are they becoming single party dictatorships.

Oh come on... Go down to Venezuala and ask citizens down there yourself about Hugo Chavez's governance and actions.

You're joking, right?

I guess you're not aware of what happened just a few months ago when the citizens 'rejected' Chavez's attempt to change the Constitution.

You really do need to get out a lot more and read something other than neo-con screeds.

Your knowledge of Venezuela is shockingly incomplete and out of date (Bolivia too, no doubt) - the country IS a functioning democracy - despite the interference of the Bush neo-cons.

You can read about Chavez most recent electoral setback right here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/world/americas/04venez.html?_r=1&fta=y&oref=slogin

Doesn't sound much like a dictatorship to me.

I can also suggest quite a bit of reading material about Leo Strauss and the necessary lie as well, although you do seem to be up on the technique.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West

Luke 20th century history

Somehow in your retelling of 20th century European political history you skipped the whole capitalist-fascist phase. I've heard there was even a war about it.

I did.

Quite a bit actually since it was North American money, advisors and training that put and/or kept many of those right-wing nutcases in power.

Oh, so Chile, Argentina and Brazil were never military dictatorships in the latter part of the 20th century?? You may want to Wiki that.

Based on your examples I assume you're expecting an American-backed overthrow of those governments, two of which are democracies, a la Pinochet or the Contras?

Luke and RRSPs

Perhaps I was googling the same place you got your 20th century history from?

I await enlightenment with great anticipation.

For most Canadians what they have in RRSPs is piddly.

From the Cdn Encyclopedia :

And

The numbers you're looking at is because a minority of Canadians put a lot of money into the fund market. Most Canadians don't have the money to do so.

Luke and RRSPs the sequel

From StatsCan in 2006 :

At the same time, the number of contributors rose to its highest level in four years.

Contributions totalled nearly $30.6 billion, up 6.2% from 2004. This was the highest total ever. Data came from income tax returns filed in the spring of 2006.

Over 6.1 million taxfilers contributed to an RRSP in 2005, up 2.2% from 2004. This was the highest level since 2001 when more than 6.2 million people contributed to an RRSP.

To be eligible to contribute to an RRSP, a taxfiler must have either new room as a result of qualifying income from the previous year (generally employment income), or unused room from earlier years.

As in recent years, almost 86% of taxfilers were eligible to contribute for the 2005 tax year. Of these, about 31% actually made contributions.

The $30.6 billion represented only about 7% of the total room available to eligible taxfilers.

7% eh? And that was a record it says.

So what does the National Post have to say? Why, we have an article from 2008 here :

$25,000? Oh boy.

Says a lot.

Stormtroopers Inc.

Luke Skywalker:

.

Frank:

Luke,

I think you've just met Obi-Wan-Kenobi.

Luke

I disagree.

You did?

Sounds eerily similar to what happens to people on welfare in BC...

Very very similar.

That's terrible of course. It also means it didn't happen to you.

Frank...

Just a response to your comments... already talked about Pre-WW2... drifting into WW2 and WW1 is a bit of over thread-drift, n'est pas? :)

Quite a bit actually since it was North American money, advisors and training that put and/or kept many of those right-wing nutcases in power.

And alot of Soviet bloc money, advisors, and training that kept many of the left- wing nutbars in power.

Recall Cuba and East Germany military advisors and training in Southwest Africa, etc?

A bit of mis-communication there as I was responding to you in whole generally, not by specific quotes. Of course we all know about the right-wing military dictatorships during the relevant 50's, 60's, '70's and '80's period.

It's done, it's over, they are now emerging as stable liberal democracies.

Based on your examples I assume you're expecting an American-backed overthrow of those governments, two of which are democracies, a la Pinochet or the Contras?

Oh come on... I think that we are both in agreement when it comes to American/Soviet hegemony, imperialism, whatever.

But really, can you blame the Americans for getting pissed off when the Cubans allowed the Soviets a missile base in Cuba in '62 or Venezuala's Chavez recent chest-beating and threats against the U.S.?

Not very wise politics IMHO.

Chavez has a propensity to piss off people... even pissed off the King of Spain (whatever ya think of him) last November.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7089131.stm

RRSPs

And you know a funny thing about those little RRSP accounts - unless you've accumulated a minimum of about 100G in a fund at retirement you may actually be better off without one.

When it comes time to draw a pension it's often the annuity amount from an RRSP (couple hundred bucks a month or less) that puts retirees into a different income bracket, pushes up their health coverage expenses and eliminates their quarterly GST refund as well as costing them more tax.

Funny how that works...but most working Canadians don't know that and they'd love to contribute. Especially with all that nice advertising we get every year immediately after Christmas which tells us all it’s almost criminal to NOT have an RRSP.

Problem is, they just can't afford it....it’s that damn stagnant income again.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West

Luke

Go in any direction you want, we're about as far from welfare in BC as you can get already.

Many? Left-wing Latin American nutbars? I think you're stretching the use of the word "many". Your right-wing nutcases definitely outnumber my nutbars at least 10:1.

See my point above, you named one (Cuba) and then had to take a ferry to Africa where I think you're talking about the MPLA based on the geography. The MPLA aren't angels but compared to the fascist Portugese of that period I know which side I would be on.

Which coincide pleasantly with the time of the East European countries you started this topic with.

Doesn't matter, if you're going to talk about East Germany then I see no reason Argentinian juntas can't be on the same table. In fact, I'll even raise you nun-butchering El Salvadoreans, as we shouldn't forget about that ugly little episode in right-wing political history as we meander down kid's-arm-cutting-off Contra lane.

This just in, Leonid Brehznev is still dead. The Soviets are gone. I think Bure is in charge now.

Yes, I can. Being as the US was placing missiles in Turkey I see it as tit for tat. But apparently the Americans think "tit for tat" is unfair somehow and provides them with a casus belli.

The democratically elected Chavez that supplies poor north-eastern Americans with heating oil? Seems like a peaceful guy, I can't think of any small countries he's invaded, unlike the USA.

Perhaps not "wise" but I like his attitude.

What I think of the King of Spain is pretty much the same as what Napoleon thought of him. Which is that he'd be just as interesting in a jail in Bayonne.

Frank... RRSPs

People start contributing to RRSP's after they hit the age of 18 till 65.

Never known anyone not having any funds in an RRSP from people who are plumbers to carpenters to employees under union contract who receive 50% similar company contributions.

Sounds like most posters here don't have any RRSP's. Unfortunate and sad.

Cubans

Why the hell shouldn't they have protection against the right-wing nut bars who were behind the Bay of Pigs? Cuba is a separate and independent country and the US had missiles in Turkey – remember?

It's actually worked out not so badly for the Cuban people. They are better educated, have a better health system and are rid of American hegemony for the most part.

And how many US presidents has Castro outlasted? Remind me - but I think he came to power just around the time Kennedy was elected so I'd say that would include Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton I, Bush II...who have I missed?

Any other tiny country you know of which has managed to fight off American power and a trade embargo (and send doctors and technicians to help the poor all around the world) for that long?

Tiny personal question Luke Skywalker, don't answer if you don't want to but, just how old are you?

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West

Ohhh Geee West....

You should have a career as a financial advisor! :)

Luke

The National Post, StatsCan, a Financial Survey and me agree that only a small minority do so in a big way.

I notice you use that term for people without RRSPs but you wouldn't use that phrase for people on welfare in BC affected by Campbell's cuts.

Why did you refuse to say something resembling compassion earlier? Are you a Mutual Fund salesman?

Hmmmmm....

Yep, the worker's paradise of one-party socialist states. Best social engineering they ever had.

Absolutely. Gotta love 'em one party socialist dictatorships with the secret police ensuring no dissent. Forget about the poverty.

Why doesn't a Canadian federal party utilize those planks in its platform?

Wish that the federal NDP would hold 'em up as a role model.:)

Frank... RRSPs epilogue

And a majority at least use 'em in a small way. Compound interest all adds up over time.

Luke

If out of that long post of mine this is your only comment I'm going to assume that that drift has reached its end-point.

The one-party with two heads, capitalist dictatorship that hates them so much has mucho police forces of its own and also a hell of lot of poverty.

Better education and health care? The NDP does.

Or were you talking about the spending on police and military and forgetting about poverty stuff? That would be 2 of the key planks of the federal Cdn Conservative party.

Please note how many Canadians enjoy visiting Cuba.

Luke and RRSPs

That straw is pretty high but if you wanna reach for it be my guest.

Frank...

That straw is pretty high but if you wanna reach for it be my guest.

Well, as for RRSPs and direct investment into stocks/bonds, why not just look at the good ol' Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives:

This is a massive sum that dwarfs the total amount of RRSP contributions made by all taxpayers, which, in 1996 (the last year for which we have data) amounted to $26.2 billion.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/index.cfm?act=news&call=759&do=article&pA=BB736455

Luke

You forgot to say why. And the point is?

welfare recipient Vs. C. Richmond

Welfare recipient:

Cash benefits:

$7320/annum - $610 / month x 12 months

*Perks:
!!! free pet rats, mice, lice and roaches
!!! unfinished basement apt. shared bath
!!! get to eat for free at soup kitchen every thursday
!!! organic food: fungus grows on walls for free
Retirement - CPP at age 65

Hon. MLA C. Richmond

Legislature sat all of 46 days in 2006
$75,4000 / annum - basic salary
$39,000 / annum - cabinet post
$20,000 / annum housing allowance
$10,296 / annum for gov't funded RRSP

Perks:
endless free dinners, wine included
major medical/dental plan
sizeble government pension upon retirement (anytime after 10 years of service) CPP at age 65
free air and limo transportation to and from home
(I'm sure there are more things for MLAs like food allowance and haircuts, I just don't think it worth my time to look).

This Public servant:

lives on our tax dollars and works less than 100 days per year

He is paid 20 times what he deems welfare recipient should receive.

He has a gold-plated pension.

Luke

Let me guess, when you see

you picture 33 million Canadians of all walks of life each investing $4,000+ in global stocks and bonds?

Whereas I picture 3 very rich guys with $48 billion each?

don't forget, Frank

Between 1995 an 2004, Canadian governments also contributed 144 B to the corporations of which your 3 very rich guys bought stock. Just another way the people in the middle could help those at the top - CEOs with 1 million+ salaries, company expense accounts and huge stock options...etc.

Frank....

you picture 33 million Canadians of all walks of life each investing $4,000+ in global stocks and bonds?

Whereas I picture 3 very rich guys with $48 billion each?

lol... Oh come on Frank be a little honest here.

Do you or does anyone you know (family, friends, co-workers, etc) have any RRSPs, stock/bond investments, or perhaps any real estate investments? I mean REALLY!

You must know working people such as plumbers or carpenters or unionized people who do. I do.

Would you at least be able to answer that???

As for poverty... YES it IS very sad and unfortunate and RRSP's are also unfortunately not within their reach.

Luke

I was being honest, that's the picture I get.

Sure, but what's the point? I doubt who I know is a microcosm of Cdn society. Unless Cdn society is really boring.

I myself do not have any RRSPs because I strongly believe I should invest in myself (and my family) and make my own way and not piggy back off the work of others.

You know the old adage,

"Those who can, do
Those who can't, invest"

Better that those who work get paid the benefit of their work instead of sloths who think its wonderful other people are working for less in order to support their retirement.

Since you asked :-)

SharingIsGood

That's a lousy stat to put in my head before bed Sharing :-)

Frank and SIG...

Well at least I can say one thing... both of you guys are great advocates for the poor and would be good people to assist in public policy to enhance their lives.

Caveat though... everything is a delicate balancing act and I would also think a financial leash would be in order. ;)

'Night.

Financial advice

Actually, I'm hardly the only one who's made the point that small RRSP accounts - at age 71 - aren't such a good deal for all retirees.

Let me post just one other simple example:

Many people, especially young folks, forget that all RRSP withdrawals (or RRIF withdrawals) are taxed as income.

If a person also has income from a job, it may not be necessary to withdraw money from the registered accounts, but in many cases the taxpayer is forced to do so. For example, once you turn 71, you must mature your RRSP. The most popular maturity option is to convert the RRSP into a RRIF account (a registered retirement income fund). RRIF's have minimum withdrawal amounts that you must adhere to.

If your income from employment (and a lot of people want to keep working and earning after retirement) is enough to cover your expenses, then withdrawing funds when you don't need to will only attract taxes that are best left deferred if possible. An option simply not available with RRIFs

The problem of too much money in registered accounts is NOT an uncommon one. It is the very reason RRSP/RRIF meltdowns exist. It's also important to stress that folks with defined benefit pension plans may not be wise to contribute to RRSP's at all because both RRIF income and pension income is taxable. With a defined benefits pension, the taxpayer has little (if any) control over the payment schedule.

Many folks I know about are shocked when they end up paying far more tax when they retire than they ever imagined would be the case.

It simply isn't black and white, most people can't afford RRSPs and the folks who really benefit when working people use them to a limited extent are often just the guys and gals who're out beating the bushes every year to get you to buy the things.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West

Seriously, buy a dictionary!

Luke Skywalker:

I stated expressly in my second-to-last post that I was not trying to "characterise the Manitoba NDP's style of governing", but rather to point out (very effectively, I might add) that you had no idea what you were talking about. Your last post addressed to me has a quote comparing the Manitoba NDP to the British Labour Party is a straw man argument (as is the rest of that post), as I asked you what about Doer's policies were neo-liberal, not if Doer's policies were similar to those of Blair in Britain.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/04/

Now if that is not quasi neo-liberal, I don't know what is. :)

First of all, the term "quasi neo-liberal" is meaningless. Second, corporate tax cuts do not a neo-liberal make. Third, you've made it plain as day, on this and other threads, that you've no idea what neo-liberalism means. Do us all a favour and buy a dictionary. Or you could refer to the definition G West provided you a while back, as that was fairly close to the mark.

What is the definition of neo-liberalism? If you knew what it meant, you'd realise that has nothing to do with foreign intervention.

Wow. Again, you haven't the slightest clue. And yet you write as if you know. Chavez is the President of Venezuela. He was elected. Three times.

Has someoe here 1...

First, has someone here that I've missed been advocating for a "one party socialist state"?

Like you fail to critique even mildly the welfare system in place for the corporate ruling and management class, in which grand scheme of things the savings of the working class compare insignificantly, by and large, against the amounts it takes to control and/or influence corporate policy and behaviours, you as well have failed to read or consider my comments on the essential same, same class character of traditional capitalism, and what represented itself as socialism/communism in the old USSR. Currently, nowhere is this more obvious that the "vanguard" bureaucrats of the Communist Party tend over time to evolve into a new ruling class themselves, than in modern day China.

And the proof of the pudding that such cash investments/savings as "some" working stiff may have in the corporate system, you have also likewise obviously chosen to ignore the minimal effect this finally has in the behavioural and management corporate system and culture. (Consider, for example, the stellar collapses of such as Enron and the other large corporations that have gone bankrupt over the Neocon period, in their frauds ignoring the interests of even their own workers, invested pension benefits, let alone other small private investors savings-, over which workers seldom have any meaningful control or say anyway, once they are sunk in these corporations. For most of the working class it is an act of blind faith that, considering my own modest investments, (capitalism is the only game in town), produces typically disappointing returns, especially over the period, with some ups and significant downs, trending overall down, of the Neocon period since the early '80s.

Working class savings "investment" in stock market capitalism is much like our savings in the banks. It's our money they are using, no doubt, but it sure as Hell doesn't mean that I own them, or am able to influence their policy and practise behaviours in any "significant or meaningful" way. And of recent, the evidence is increasingly indicated we might be better in this current "crises" phase of "depression bound" capitalism, to put our savings under our mattresses anyway.

Continued next post...

Has someone here 2...

Continued from previous post...

That said, and for all my critique of what has passed for communism/socialism, including in Cuba and Venezuela, Fidel's and Chavez's Cuba and Venezuela is certainly one Hell of a lot better for the average citizen, considering even the price of the US "free market's" enforced isolation of them. than the old US gangsterism dominated Cuba of Batista, and the old ruling class system of Venezuala that tried and still tries to deny their people's the right to transform their societies and move away from reliance on corporate capitalism.

Another "memory lapse" of yours. You forget the only real alternatives that were/are available to these countries and their citizens.

The new form, working class and broad citizen dominated democracy that I envision, which is "most likely" to have some form of multi-party , proportional rep democracy in fact, as well as, even especially an economic democracy,frankly, doesn't exist anywhere yet, that I know of. But then, prior to the English Civil War of 1642-49 and the later Land Enclosure Acts that drove the peasantry from the feudal lands they occupied, forcing them into the emerging Industrial Revolution cities, capitalism had never existed anywhere before either. (Just as there was no Rome and slavery at one time, and no feudal aristocratic system, both of which nonetheless came into being and are now ancient history.)

Life is much more complicated and nuanced than you seem able to get your rightist wingnut head around.

Hmmmmmm...

G West:

People place funds within an RRSP over a ~47 year period to take advantage of compound interest and to provide a retirement nest egg. Simple as that.

Jimmy:

What's the diff? If you don't take the word of a University of Winnipeg ply sci-prof, a former Manitoba NDP MLA, or a SFU poly sci prof, that's your perogative.

But:

1. "Doer governs as a neo-liberal"

2. "Doer is our Tony Blair a "Third way politician"

3. "Doer's never been an NDP leader that’s been wedded to traditional social democratic values and ideas."

4. Doer has "understood that old left-right politics is just not on anymore."

5. Doer is "a "small-l liberal" without "a socialist bone in his body".

Certainly says alot.

Canis:

It's our money they are using, no doubt, but it sure as Hell doesn't mean that I own them, or am able to influence their policy and practise behaviours in any "significant or meaningful" way

Again the beneficiaries of most bank shares are union pension funds, insurance companies, mutual fund holders etc.

OTOH, you certainly have the perogative to join a credit union, which holds $42 billion in BC assets and has 1.6 million members.

You purchase equity shares and have a vote on a democratically elected board. In fact, Van City's board is comprised mainly of New Democrats.

No it's not that simple

But explaining it further is not worth the effort - apparently you didn't actually read, or understand, the point which was being made.

And further, you misrepresent what jimmy wrote as well - do what would be the point? Corporate kleptocracy and CEO government will continue to be alive and well in Canada as long as people of good will turn a blind eye to what's going on and pretend all's well under the sun.

I suspect you're very young...you'll learn.

As for that last line about Van City's board being mainly New Democrats - I strongly suspect that too is an opinion, not a fact.

Political membership in this country is the exception, not the rule and, it's not something the public has any need, or right, to know.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West

Continued Evasion...

Again the beneficiaries of most bank shares are union pension funds, insurance companies, mutual fund holders etc.

Again, which means jack shite to your average worker, let alone the poor, all of whom, despite the intermediaries of pension funds, insurance companies, and mutual funds etc., get no power in corporations either for their labour or their modest cash savings in banks or stocks. All being set up in such a way as to isolate them from the real decision making processes of investment policy, let alone power in the day to day management decisions of the enterprises in which they work.

The bigger the capital wad you have as "an individual" in capitalism, is proportioned out your real power within the economy and the political influence. In which arrangement, it is the wealthiest and minority ruling class members who hold the controlling shares, in fact, and the economic and political influence and power that goes with that. Stop the bullshite, Luke.

Let's hear your condemnation of the publicly funded corporate welfare system in this country and, indeed, throughout capitalism everywhere, while the poor are left free to be homeless, self-medicate, and prostitute themselves. You have a sweeping and wide ranging critique you advance of the working class poor here, but nada, zip, zero but praise for the ruling class of capitalism and their constant oinking at the public trough.

Indeed, corporate/company welfare and write-offs, grants, forgiveable loans etc. for the wealthy have been around as long as there has been capitalism, certainly going back to the building of the CPR in this country, for example, even the early Hudson Bay Company etc. Indeed, it is unlikely capitalism could function long without this publicly funded largess constantly being funnelled through to them through the bourgeois state-, of which you are so hypocritically critical for the bare bones social service schemes it has been FORCED by past class struggles to provide to the ordinary working class citizenry of capitalism-, at least up until recent timers, and the rise of the neoconazis.

Continued next post...

Continued Evasion 2...

From Previous Post...

'fess up, Luke. The balance of political and economic power within capitalism penultimately represented by your modern global corps, like the hollow democracy it likewise professes, is grossly unbalanced and tilted in favour of the wealthy ruling class. Your hostility to welfare for the poor working class would at least have some balanced credibility, were you capable of also, at least, of even an empty mouthing critique of the welfare schemes in place for the wealthiest of the system.

And I take your silence on my critique of both capitalism and what has to here passed for communism, like your silence on the corporate frauds of such as Enron, and the decline of global capitalism into what is looking very much like an economic depression coming on, as a silent and embarassed admission of guilt-, but to which you are not prepared to publicly admit.

But then, we didn't really expect any such balance from you anyway, eh? Did we? :-)

Pathetic!!!

Oh Geeee West...

Van City Board of Directors: (10 members)

1. Patrice Pratt, chair, former head of the BC NDP;

2. Bob Williams, former NDP MLA;

3. Kim Griffith, former Trustee of COPE, local 15;

4. Elizabeth Fletcher, Secretary-Treasurer, TWU, local 50;

5. Elain Duvall, chaired NDP
minister's advisory committee on affordable housing, 1993 - 1998;

6. Catherine McCreary, federal NDP candidate, Calgary Centre, 1993;

7. Ian Gill, President of Eco-Trust Canada;

8. Lisa Barrett, self-described former "anarchist" mayor of Bowen Island;

9. Virginia Weiler, director of Smartgrowth BC;

10. Doreen Braverman, probably the only director that remotely represents anything on the centre/centre-right of the political spectrum;

https://www.vancity.com/MyCommunity/AboutUs/WhoWeAre/CorporateInformation/BoardofDirectors/CurrentBoard/

Time ya learn something about politics.

As usual you're always full off hot air. lol

What are you talking about Luke Skywalker

There isn't a single piece of evidence in any of those biographies that any of those people are NDP 'members'.

They 'may' be, they may not be. Now, why don't you look at who the ceo of Vancity is and where 'she' came from?

Then we'll talk about hot air.

http://www.cucentral.ca/VancityCEO_july07

Now Tamara Vrooman has done a lot of things, and, if you'll do a little research you'll find she was held in very high esteem by the current minister of Finance of this province - who was very sad to see her leave the public service.

Now does that mean she IS or is NOT a Campbell Liberal?

I'd suggest, just like your hypothetical calculation about the members of the Board at VanCity, that only her hairdresser knows for sure.

As I said above, you don't appear to be able to read for understanding.

You might want to slow down and think a little about what you're writing - because you're tending to come off a little badly of late.

And, I've told you before, can the insults - it's the first sign of desperation.

Look back at my post. This is what I wrote:
As for that last line about Van City's board being mainly New Democrats - I strongly suspect that too is an opinion, not a fact.

I do appreciate your proving my point.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West

Canis...

While we both see the world through completely different lenses, I will agree with you on one point...

The free market economy in North America certainly has its blatant excesses and frankly I prefer the western European social market economy originally created by German Christian Democrat ( a conservative no less) Minister of Economics Ludwig Erhard between 1963 and 1966:

Basically respecting the free market, the social market economy is opposed to both a planned economy and laissez-faire capitalism.

Ohhh Geee West....

Members or supporters.. What's the diff???

Are you really that silly and do not know anything about politics??? lol

Do you really think that the biographies will include any previous history with the "NDP"?

I mean have you never heard of former Vancouver East NDP MLA Bob Williams?

Have you never heard of former BC NDP head Patrice Pratt?

She also entered politics for a while, running for president of the B.C. Federation of Labour (losing to Jim Sinclair), and also served as vice-president of the federal NDP and then president of the BC NDP in the early ’90s.

How do you think she was elected as "chair of the board" without progressive support??

Do you not know that during the early 1980's a "progressive slate" was formed to oust the former VanCity board of directors and that the "progressive slate" has controlled VanCity ever since?

I'm stupified that people like you are so ignorant! lol

Luke

But:

1. "Doer governs as a neo-liberal"

Where's the link that quote came from? I'd like to read the whole thing.

Since you started bringing Doer up a lot I've done a lot of reading on the guy and he seems to me to be a typical prairie lefty and has ran a pretty much normal left-wing government. Just a lefty that also happens to be better looking and smoother than your average bear.

I just don't see the resemblance with neo-Libs like Mike Harris, Bill Bennett, Ralph Klein and Preston Manning.

Anyway, do you have a link for the above quotes?

Quote:The free market

Not enough to move there and bless them with your taxes and mangled political thought, obviously.

I'm sure Lisa will be tickled "pink" to hear she's an NDP member. I'll be sure to tell her in a couple weeks at the Hillside High class reunion.

She was a West Van girl in the same tradition I was - keep the rest of the world out - our part of the world is just big enough. But the rest of the world had their way with West Van in the '70s, and so Lisa moved to Bowen in the 80s to recapture that worldview, while I moved into Vancouver and entered the twentieth century as others were just leaving it.

All of us have to come to some accommodations with our pasts, upbringings and worldviews. To slap political labels on the most complex of journeys isn't useful.

Unless one slaps them on oneself....

Frank...

Those neo-conservatives? Nothin' to do with neo-liberalism.

Remember that federally there is a capital Liberal party and a capital Conservative party.

Former New Democrats like Rae and Dosanjh are now with the federal Liberal party. Are you inferring that the federal Liberals are left-wing??? ...or perhaps neo-liberal? :)

Remember that poster Budd Campbell is both a provincial/federal New Democrat and ya still call him a righty. ;)

Paradigm Shift: Globalization and the Canadian State, by Stephen McBride (Fernwood Publishing, 2005; $26.95)

Buy the book! :)

zalm:

NDP member? Huh?

Lisa is actually on the "progressive" wing of the Green Party although she was a self-described anrachist.

If ya put add 1 + 1...

Luke Skywalker

So you're denying you wrote this:

"Van City's board is comprised mainly of New Democrats."

Because that's what is up there under your name. And you still haven't done anything to prove that's the case.

Or is someone else posting with your handle again?

By the way, I'm going to report to the editors that your last comment about me was offensive.

I've warned you several times that you're in violation of the rules - perhaps you should also review the 'comment code of conduct' when you have a moment.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

Oh Geeee West...

Yep mainly New Democrats [either members or supporters]. What's the diff???

Not surprised ... you are soooooooo childish. lol

Not so sweet charity

Luke Skywalker wrote:

Funny enough I find that your most disgusting statement on this thread.

Because you have completely left yourself out of the equation....all while donning a pretentious charitable tone that I guess helps you sleep at night.

Reminds me of Claude Richmond, referring (in the legislature the other day) to the poor as "those people".

When you get that "their" lives, "their" life, is your life as well perhaps you can begin to take on the big questions (that Canis quite correctly states) you continuously avoid addressing.

Luke

That's not what the SFU prof you quoted says.

Neo-liberal? Yes. Left-wing? No.

And he calls me a lefty. What's the problem?

In Canada, Bob Rae, Roy Romanow, Gary Doer and Jean Chretien have all governed as neoliberals

Paradigm Shift: Globalization and the Canadian State, by Stephen McBride (Fernwood Publishing, 2005; $26.95)

The thing is you disagree with this professor. He says Harris et al are also neo-liberals. And you agree with him so I call those guys neo-liberals and you say no no and then quote the prof again who says they are.

You're being very selective about quoting him.

Ohhh Geee West....

[INFLAMMATORY COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Frank...

You're being very selective about quoting him.

Hmmmmm.... Good point... Can't figure out why he would include Harris in that rump group... considering his other book...

Not Working: State, Unemployment and Neo-conservatism in Canada (1992) which won the 1994 Smiley prize.

Anyhoo, I kinda think I better consult with the professor on Gilligan's Island. :)

Luke

Ya well I can't figure out why he would say democratic socialists and premiers like Mike Harris are the same.

Then again I won't be losing a lot of sleep over it, instead I'll just consider him to be wrong and move on.

As for Doer, I'm okay with him being called a democratic socialist but regardless of the label he is simply not in the same camp as Mike Harris and Gordon Campbell.

Frank...

But why would former Manitoba NDP MLA Cy Gonick describe Doer "as a "small-l liberal" without "a socialist bone in his body" last year in 2007?

Now so-called democratic socialist former premiers Rae of the ONDP and Dosanjh of the BC NDP are now part of the federal Liberal caucus.

Even former BC NDP premier Dan Miller supported former IWA leader Dave Haggard as the federal Liberal candidate in New Westminster-Coquitlam in 2004.

Former BC NDP Premier Harcourt's executive assistant as Vancouver mayor and premier, Shirley Chan, ran as the federal Liberal candidate in 2004.

Now, based upon these democratic socialists either running or supporting the federal Liberal Party and its candidates, would I assume, using your logic, that the federal Liberal party is turning into a democratic socialist party?

Luke

Because as the Soviets used to say, our society produces a high noise to signal ratio. Therefore we can google anything we want to "prove". I bet within 5 minutes I could find a Republican that claims George Bush doesn't have a conservative bone in his body.

I think its best to look at what more than one, or more than a few people, think.

People change their minds. I'm sure you know the Galbraith quote to that effect. Also, there is no other party between the Libs and NDP so of course there's going to be some movement back and forth between the two just as there is between the Liberals and the "neo-con" Conservatives.

And even within the other parties you have Liberals that are more right-wing than others or Conservatives that lean further left than other Conservatives to the point they could just as easily run as a Liberal (Keith Martin).

Far from it, they've moved closer to the Conservatives. There's much more movement between those two parties AND their voters than there is between the NDP and Libs.

I just pushed the button on you again

I did post here under two different names for exactly one year.

You can read all about it here:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/Teacherdiaries/2007/02/27/BoyTrouble/

The editors know all about it - and they also know that Lynn and I are not, and have never been the same person.

You should learn to fight your own battles on their merits and not resort to calling people names or implying that there aren't lots of folks out there reading this who share my views...

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

Frank...

Just like the NDP, ya have their left-wing and their right-wing.

Yeah, both of the major parties obviously have a much larger voter base.

With the Liberals... the centre-left "Chretien Liberals and the centre-right "Martin Liberals".

The Dion Liberals are again the centre-left liberals or "Chretien" Liberals.

What still gets me though, concerning the BC NDP leadership, is the following:

1. Harcourt (a centre-left liberal) - His executive assistant Shirley Chan runs for the federal Liberals;

2. Dosanjh (a centre-left liberal) - runs and is elected as a federal Liberal;

3. Miller (a centre-left liberal) - supports an IWA leader running for the federal Liberals;

4. Clark (a democratic socialist) - works for über-capitalist Pattison;

That would have been unheard of during the Dave Barrett era!

[INFLAMMATORY COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

support for the poor

Luke Skywalker, the other day you said not enough is being done for the poor. Rather that slam an NDP which has had nothing to do with governance for the last 7 years (a 7 years that has seen record prices for the commodities BC has had to offer), what do you believe this government should be doing for the poor?

I keep waiting to hear some creative thought: here's your pulpit, here's your chance.

What should the government do to help feed, clothe and house people who find it extremely difficult to make ends meet. Please keep in mind that 17% of the people are considered to be of below average (or lower intelligence). They are not a part of the 84% of middle and above average intelligence.

Please also recognise that many people are physically disabled and many more are emotionally disabled.

Post traumatic stress and anxiety are real medical/psychological conditions. People often endure these conditions for the rest of their lives after having witnessed or suffered physical or sexual abuse - or even accidental trauma (motor vehicle accidents).

Don't forget that many of our native people are dealing with the aftermath of either being in residential schools themselves, or their parents and other family members went through what many consider forced detention in concentration camps. These survivors of residential schools were not taught how to be parents, they were taught how to be victims - to succomb. They have been made second class citizens in their own land. And changing laws to finally give them some rights is not a wave of a magic wand. The solution to their victimization will take generations to work out.

Perhaps you can be part of the solution rather than part of the current government's ignoring and outright obfuscation of the truth. Poor people are human beings and they have fared far worse during these last 7 years under Campbell while the most affluent, the most able, have done far better than at any other time in BC history. Let's hear how you would move forward to help our hurting people.

SIG...

Tell me about it... I have two close relatives in that position.

As for the rest of your well thought out post, I frankly have no idea.

But I think that all of a sudden increasing rates by 50% and having the highest social assistance rates in Canada, is not the best solution for reasons I have previously mentioned, no matter how noble the idea.

what about 25%, Luke

I am sorry to hear that you have relatives who suffer. It must be quite a burden for your family, but you know you are not alone. Many people in BC have relatives who suffer.

Some of the people with disabled relatives don't really care and just try to ignor the problem. Other people have very few resources with which to take care of themselves let alone their having to carry the burden of disabled relatives. Some families seem to have the resources to help their disabled relatives, and I admire every family that works to support their relatives in need.

But, what about those peole whose families ignor them, or can't help them? What are we to do for them? Saying things like, "I don't know", or "it is not our problem" is a cop-out. Continually expecting people to volunteer is not fair. These poor people are our people, they are British Columbians, Canadians, and human beings.

If 50 is too much, how about 25-30% for a start, Luke.

I believe you can be more creative about how we can help people. I have seen lots of creativity in your postings. ;)

Luke Skywalker

Me get over it?

I think you've got that little plaint reversed as well.

It wasn't me calling names; it wasn't me who doesn't stand behind what he writes and it wasn't me who insulted Lynn.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

SIG...

Firstly, we can agree that the minimum wage should increase to $9.50 - $10.00/hr.

Sounds like the ol' business "split the difference" handshake. :)

I will agree that some increase is warranted, but without any first hand knowledge of cost/benefits of same, that would be akin to pulling a number out of thin air.

In that regard I would have to agree with:

And then there is the social housing component.

And then there is the better employment opportunities component.

A whole basket of goods are involved to lift up the standard of living of those on the lower rung of the socio-economic ladder..

Resurgent Communists in Germany...

Luke,

I can see we are not going to make any headway in getting some balance and objectivity, let alone humanity with feeling out of you, which my friend Lynn correctly notes. (Lynn is G.West. That's hilarious, [EDITED. -MODERATOR]. She's all woman, my man. [EDITED. -MODERATOR.].)

So we'll write off this attempt to turn you into something more resembling a balanced, seriously analytical and compassionate person-, rather than the simple regurgitator of quotes and stats that you show us here at least.

Instead, I'll bring to your attention a very interesting news show I was watching last night, or the night before, on CNN, CBC or US public television, or maybe even the Knowledge Network, which has been presenting some interesting "news" stuff of late. (I'm a channel changer, and find it difficult to recall precisely where I watched what.)

Anyway, this show was about the increasing concern in German ruling class and fellow European ruling class circles, and in the US Empire of course, about the claimed "dramatic" resurgence of the Communists in both West and East Germany, where their popularity and public interest in them is, apparently, growing. If it's true, and I've only seen this one claim on this one tv show, how ironic is the ebb and flow of history, nicht wahr?

It seems, the authors of this particular documentary claimed anyway, that as a consequence of the changing, more "conservative" and even extreme right political climate in Germany, and the same kinds of "troubling" economic malaise and deterioration going on within the economy of the previously "stellar" performing "regulated" German capitalism, that there is a re-emergent, described "nostalgia" for the old GDR in Eastern Germany. Not only that, with the disillusionment of the "left" and sections of the German working class that is a consequence of growing unemployment, rising economic insecurity and the Social Democrats sleeping in the same conjugal bed with the conservative CDU's (Christian Democratic Union) Angela Merkel, there is a rather significant renewed interest being shown toward the Communists in West Germany. All much to the surprise and alarm of the German establishment, of course.

Indeed, there is a certain irony to history of which all objective and serious thinkers should be mindful, whatever their "alignment"-, especially thee of the short view of history. :-) Perhaps summed up best in, very often true, though not entirely of course, "What goes around, comes around." An observation which our own Canadian ruling class should be mindful of.

Check this out...

Luke,

Check this article out from the Washington Post, though I see that USA Today has a headline piece on it as well, about the resurgence of the German Communists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/15/AR2008031502081.html

Luke

Exactly

Yeah, both of the major parties obviously have a much larger voter base.

Not that much bigger, about double, roughly.

1. Harcourt (a centre-left liberal) - His executive assistant Shirley Chan runs for the federal Liberals;

2. Dosanjh (a centre-left liberal) - runs and is elected as a federal Liberal;

3. Miller (a centre-left liberal) - supports an IWA leader running for the federal Liberals;

Because there was no strong Liberal party in BC so Libs had to make a decision, do they agree more with the so-called "free enterprise" party or with the NDP. (Now of course we have the taking over of the Liberal party brand name by the Socreds)

Anyway, it would be weirder if there wasn't lots of cross-over between the provincial NDP and the federal Libs.

Kinda like a Socred doing charity work?

Not true, provincial and federal NDP strength back then wasn't equal either. There were federal Libs then that parked their vote under the orange banner too.

Frank...

I agree in regards to the electorate at large but that wasn't the point. It's the leadership involved in same.

The NDP is notorious about one provincial/federal membership and they particularly don't like turncoats.

Kinda like a Socred doing charity work?

One of the best laughs that I've had all day! lol

Canis...

[INFLAMMATORY COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

I've been following German politics for over 20 years.

Post re-unification, the old SED morphed into the Party of Democratic Socialism. (PDS).

BTW, going from so-called capitalism to so-called communism is akin to to turning the ingredients for clam chowder into clam chowder. To reverse that process is akin to trying to retrieve the original ingredients from the chowder bowl.

The PDS usually managed to break through the national 5% threshold at the federal level, mostly as a result of receiving 20% - 25% support in the old GDR.

Social/economic problems still persist in the old GDR.

Around 2005, in western Germany, Oskar Lafontaine from the left of the SPD, formed the WASG (Labour and Social Justice - The Electoral Alternative).

A few years back the WASG and the PDS merged to form Die Linke.

As a result of the current CDU-SPD national coalition government, some left-wing SPD'ers have parked their vote with Die Linke.

Currently they stand nationally between 11% - 14% of voting intentions.

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm

Germany has a history of extremist parties gaining support at the federal/ state level including the fascist NPD, DVU, and Republikaners.

Doesn't really matter though. With the mmp system, your popular vote equates your seat allocation.

Many coalitions are formed: SPD/CDU, SPD/FDP, SDP/Grune, CDU/FDP, CDU/Gruene.

how about the carbon tax, luke

Intead of giving the carbon tax to big business, and banks, let's give it to the poor.

Here's a creative idea:

If they are poor and own or rent some bit of a shack on some small bit of land, let's help them become energy efficient - maybe buy them an energy efficient, low polluting water heater, and washer-dryer so they don't have to spend their money and time at the coin-op laundry. That way, maybe some of the heat from their dry can help heat their house in the winter. In the summer, of course they can hang it on the line that someone helps them put up if they can't themselves.

You see, Luke, if you want to support the Liberals, you could you spend more energy helping them change for the better so they don't have to get booted out. Perhaps you can help just Campbell lose his riding. Then, maybe the Liberals can become more truthful, open, and humane. We know that he is the worst of the Liberals, and as a dictatorial premier, he has shown his true colours.

I don't think you are as bad as he, but with your constant quoting of Liberal media-monitor-like stats, one can't help but think you are avoiding facing reality and avoiding working for a truly beautiful British Columbia. I can't help but wonder how much good you could do if you used your research skills/resources for good things like helping to figure out the best possible ways to help the poor.

First of all, I would say the place to begin is to get people off the streets and into warm beds with some showers, clean clothes on their backs and good food in their bellies. I think a variety of housing needs to be built and a variety of services needs to be put back in place. Helping people doesn't come about with the downsized ministries that Campbell Inc. has dissembled.

Campbell had a few good years of riding on the coat-tails of reasonable policies and staffing levels that had been in place in the years before he was in power. As the last 7 years have passed, the support structures for the weakest among us have eroded to the point where we are left with people and families open festering problems. In our very complicated society, these problems tend to multiply and get worse over time.

There are no simple solutions, but blindly adherring to Campbell's hellbound train is not going to help you feel good about yourself as you age. The path of greed is a path of sadness and despair in one's later years. If the greedy person finds himself old with wealth and power, then he can count on having some fawning toadies hanging about, but no real love and admiration from people with good hearts.

I will never laugh

I will never laugh, Luke, at someone selling his or her soul for money and power. If that is what Clark has done, then shame on him. If he has turned his back on working people, perhaps he was selfish from the start; perhaps he was pushed that way by a big buisness MSM who got him ousted for a neighbour's building him a tiny little deck - something I have done for free for several people.

I only met Clark once, and he listened to me, followed my advice as an expert in my field. I don't think Campbell puts himself in places where he would give me an oportunity to speak, whether I could inform him or not.

Certainly, Campbell's leadership has been much worse for the citizens of BC, particularly the poor and the common working people who are the backbone of this province.

errata for "how about..."

should read:
and families [with] open festering problems

Canis... BTW

The only "elites" in Germany worrying about Die Linke are those within the Social Democratic Party, seeing their vote leakage to Die Linke.

The Conservative CDU and the centre-right FDP would form a national coalition government if the vote was held tomorrow.

So, since there is absolutely no evidence

So, since there is absolutely no evidence that anyone is flocking anywhere to go on welfare the idea that:
a) an immediate move to a $10.00 minimum wage;
b) a significant increase (at least 50 %) in the size of the shelter allowance for all people currently on welfare;
c) the provision of significant funds to create at least double the subsidized child care spaces available in the province, and;
d) the immediate provision of free bus passes for all welfare recipients who are attending school or job training.

And given that no persuasive and empirical evidence has been advanced during several days against the foregoing propositions then, these minimal actions would seem, under the current circumstances [where the record of British Columbia is a disgrace and a blot on the province as proved by numerous surveys and statistics] - especially in comparison with much less wealthy provinces - the absolutely least a decent government can do and a reasonable populace can support.

I'd suggest all Tyee readers should immediately write or email their MLAs while they are still available in Victoria so that the necessary changes to programs can be effected before the House prorogues.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.

G West

Neo-con(founded)

SIG, Frank Jimmy_Laroux & GWest, thanks for the edification, and especially Frank, thanks for the laughs. There's really no finer entertainment for a late night than watching someone pass rhetorical shovels to ditch-diggers furiously digging a hole in order to get enough soil to fill up the last one they dug. Like a hamster on a wheel, or a Pope in a mosque...

Luke

Luke Skywalker:

Doer's policies were neo-liberal, not if Doer's policies were similar to those of Blair in Britain.

What's the diff? If you don't take the word of a University of Winnipeg ply sci-prof, a former Manitoba NDP MLA, or a SFU poly sci prof, that's your perogative.

You are being dishonest (or perhaps illiterate). What I said was:

My point was that the Blair/Third Way stuff was a red herring. Since you clearly do not know what a red herring is, here is a link for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

Haha! We're back to that again, are we? You are truly pathetic!

It certainly does. I won't say about who, but I think you know :)

DECEIVEBC

The ever "petulant" lynn responds.

Just musing here........

How would a media monitor distract a thread? Especially one with a topic, (for example) like this one, that questions the policies of government.

One way: To be argumentative. To inflame and create a running argument right down the thread.

But do that too many times and the media monitor would run the risk of being banned.

Head office would not be pleased....and
no cheque in the mail for said media monitor.

So a new approach is taken on.

A more conciliatory, more congenial mis-information approach that would draw posters into the set-up and even mimic a number of the posters' stances ...but that would still in the end ultimately defend and promote the policies of those who have hired the media monitor, all while intentionally distracting, mis-informing..... and discrediting others, including certain posters if necessary.

This new more "civil" but endless and false debate allows the media monitor to monopolize and control the debate and still manage to prevent himself from being banned....so he can distract and obfuscate his way through one thread after another.

Quite clever, really.... but not in a good way.

Which means what?

Post re-unification, the old SED morphed into the Party of Democratic Socialism. (PDS).

"BTW, going from so-called capitalism to so-called communism is akin to to turning the ingredients for clam chowder into clam chowder. To reverse that process is akin to trying to retrieve the original ingredients from the chowder bowl." nonsensically rambles Luke, his attempt at logic deteriorating into drivel.

All of which drivel means what-, other than, that Lynn is absolutely correct in her summation of you-, and your role here.

Quite clever, really.... but not in a good way."

I agree.

Ohhhhh G West...

[INFLAMMATORY COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

The [EDITED.] hard left on here certainly embarrass the NDP. No wonder they are in a tailspin. ;)

Frank and SIG are cool though.

As he rides off...

Actually, we don't much care what the NDP thinks of us. They make their choices, the same as you do.

And with that skywalking Luke, Christ-like presumably, his robes trailing in the sand and staff in hand, riding on his ass :-), disappears into the dessert wilderness and irrelevance, in his endless search for the meaning of it all.

As he goes, he is heard mumbling, "Money. It's all about money."

He is prophet for his faith who has forgotten that, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

RICHMOND NOT RUNNING AGAIN!

You won't have Claude Richmond to kick around any longer.

CKNW Breaking News...

MLA and Employment and Income Assistance Minister Claude Richmond has
announced he will not seek re-election.

CKNW sent 10:10am

50% hike in welfare

I'm new to this online debating game (wondering, do you guys have day jobs?) but after reviewing many of the comments, it seems that generally speaking, not many of you have experienced being 'financially challenged'. And although I understand that side of the fence all too well, I have never been on welfare nor on EI. However, now, if I could, I would! If welfare recipients get a 50% raise, then they'll be making $300 more per month than I do working full time! As it stands now, it's currently $300 less than what I'm making. If government really wanted to do something good, it should raise the minimum wage NOT the welfare rate. I believe that would take away at least half of the 'employable' welfare recipients - unless it's just too easy to stay on it. I find that BC is a place where the rich seem to be getting richer but the middle class is being pushed into poverty with the high cost of living. Time to equalize!

"A+"

Fugging A. :-)

Welcome to Question Authority

You seem to have jumped in quite nicely, Question Authority. I am glad you have joined this realm. The more people, the better: that means democracy is working to some extent. The Tyee is BC's modern day town hall as far as I am concerned.

In regard to your post, what if welfare and the minimum wage were raised? Wouldn't that be nicer. There would still be more $ incentive to work, as well as the usual social incentive to contribute to society. I believe there is far more money being made and collected by wealthy lay-abouts that do little to warrant their exorbinant earnings than there is being made by a few people scamming welfare. Most people want to contribute to society.

When posting online, remember: politeness helps and shyness gets you nowhere. If you feel anger after reading another's posts, it is often a good idea to back off from replying right away: angry posts (known as flaming) can damage your pen name reputation in a hurry. Whatever you write stays up for all to see and because of that some posters make a game out of playing with others' emotions. A few people will be rude here when they wouldn't have the guts to say the same rude things to your face.

In fact Sharing, that's exactly what I suggested

So, since there is absolutely no evidence
Commentor
G West
21 hours ago

So, since there is absolutely no evidence that anyone is flocking anywhere to go on welfare the idea that:
a) an immediate move to a $10.00 minimum wage;
b) a significant increase (at least 50 %) in the size of the shelter allowance for all people currently on welfare;
c) the provision of significant funds to create at least double the subsidized child care spaces available in the province, and;
d) the immediate provision of free bus passes for all welfare recipients who are attending school or job training.

And given that no persuasive and empirical evidence has been advanced during several days against the foregoing propositions then, these minimal actions would seem, under the current circumstances [where the record of British Columbia is a disgrace and a blot on the province as proved by numerous surveys and statistics] - especially in comparison with much less wealthy provinces - the absolutely least a decent government can do and a reasonable populace can support.

I'd suggest all Tyee readers should immediately write or email their MLAs while they are still available in Victoria so that the necessary changes to programs can be effected before the House prorogues.

And, for you Question Authority:
You'll also note (bolded) that the 50% increase was for the 'shelter allowance' for welfare recipients not for a 50% raise over all.

As Sharing says, welcome.

Mmmmpppphhhh..... snicker....GUFFAWWWW!!!

Christ Skywalker on his ass.... Canis, you've outdone yourself. That one's going up on the wallpaper.

A diversion...

going back a few days ago to snert's comment:

No need. The "chronic nest-soilers who burned their brains out with substance abuse" and the "scum of the earth" have been here for years, fouling the nests of the VSE and now the TSX. David Baines writes on them every week, and nobody ever seems to do anything about it. He's identified more than 400 different promoters in his career (which is more than 399 more than the BC Securities Commission), responsible for as much as $170 billion in artificial values (and hence losses), boosted by crooked monopolists called "stockbrokers", taking the money of widows and orphans, not to mention people who actually do real work for a living.

What the hell - kick 'em again. They're only poor and umbrage is free no matter who you lay it on.

exactly what [G West] suggested

No doubt about it, G West, your suggestion was better; and it may have influenced my thinking - though I doubt it. I am always for giving those most in need a leg up.

Why is it that large multinational blue-chip companies can pay nice dividends for years; then, when they start to have difficulty competing on the world market because of lack of investment in plant and equipment, they get tax breaks to keep everyone working?

The poor person that is working his hardest to keep his job at the sub-contrator gets no say.