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Can MLAs Be Kept Honest?

Outgoing conflict of interest watchdog offers ideas.

By Andrew MacLeod, 7 Apr 2008, TheTyee.ca

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British Columbia's departing conflict of interest commissioner left some recommendations behind as he tidied up his desk:

Extend the conflict rules to cover political staff.

Allow MLAs and their family members to accept more expensive gifts.

And whenever MLAs violate conflict rules, make them pay a whole lot more. Quadruple their maximum fines, in fact.

The suggested changes are among 10 recommendations Herbert Arnold Dimitri Oliver, who goes by H.A.D., made in his annual report for 2007. The report was Oliver's last as conflict commissioner. He completed his 10-year tenure in the position after submitting the report to the Speaker's office on Dec. 31, 2007. Paul Fraser has since replaced Oliver.

Speaker Bill Barisoff released the report publicly this week to a legislature preoccupied with news of an RCMP investigation into former solicitor general John Les's land deals in Chilliwack. It arrived in the wake of a scandal involving the failure of a top advisor to Premier Gordon Campbell, former deputy minister to the premier Ken Dobell, to follow the government's rules for lobbyists.

"Recent experience" shows political staff, such as Dobell, should be covered by the act, Oliver wrote. That would include ministerial assistants, the premier's chief of staff and deputy ministers.

At first he thought deputy ministers should not be included, he said. "They were part of the public service with the advantage of many years of training and experience under the same conflict of interest and ethics regime as other members of the public service.

"On further reflection, I have come to realize that at present time deputy ministers may not always have that background and may, in effect, be the most influential members of a Minister's staff and should properly be included in the political staff category."

No change planned

Oliver noted that John Horgan, the MLA for Malahat-Juan de Fuca and an NDP member of the legislature's finance committee, had raised the issue in a private member's bill that did not become law. "It may be thought preferable to have this matter dealt with as public business rather than by virtue of a private member's bill," Oliver advised.

Attorney General Wally Oppal said Wednesday he did not believe reviewing the act was his responsibility. Later in the day a ministerial assistant to Oppal told The Tyee the attorney general will review the report and act accordingly.

"I was pleased to see my persistence has had impact," said Horgan. "The government may well listen to [Oliver] if not to me." B.C. used to have one of the strongest conflict of interest acts in the country, he said. "We were leading the country in the early 1990s and we're now falling behind."

Extending the act to cover political staff would be a good step, he said. MLAs are barred for two years from taking jobs in the private sector where they have significant dealings with the government. Public servants should be too, said Horgan.

Horgan said he was inspired by the Dobell case to introduce his bill, but also cited the case of Tom Syer, a former ministerial assistant and deputy chief of staff to Premier Campbell, who left the government to join Plutonic Power Corporation Inc. "I think that's absolutely inappropriate and is an abuse of power," said Horgan. "That reeks of trying to buy influence. The public should be protected from that."

Horgan said he will likely reintroduce his bill, especially with the encouragement Oliver has given him in his report. "He offered on his way out the door something for people to chew on. I give him credit for that."

Raise gift threshold?

The act also sets rules around the fees, gifts or personal benefits an MLA may accept. Members have to publicly disclose any gift over $250. Oliver advocated raising the limit and extending it to family members. "I suggest that this prohibition be extended to include a member's spouse or minor child and that the $250 limit established 17 years ago be increased to $750."

Making the change would mean an MLA could accept a gift worth up to $749.99 -- a night at a luxury spa, a case of fine wine or expensive jewelery, for instance -- without having to say anything about it to the public.

Horgan said it would be a mistake to raise the threshold. "I think $250 is about right," he said. "You need to have some number and the $250 is a good place to start. Going up isn't the way to go."

He did, however, support raising the penalties. For those who break the rules, the act sets out a maximum fine of $5,000. That amount might have been appropriate in 1991, Oliver wrote, but has become "totally inadequate."

Oliver wrote, "I believe that a considerable increase in the maximum financial penalty (perhaps to $20,000) would provide a significant deterrent and form an acceptable alternative penalty to a period of suspension." Fines are better than suspensions, he said, since barring an MLA from the legislature could be seen as penalizing the member's constituents.

No fines levied

Not that Oliver has ever levied a fine. In fact he has only twice found a member in violation of the act. One was the matter of a deck for then premier Glen Clark, "who received certain benefits from a personal friend, a building contractor who at the same time was seeking a provincial casino license."

Though a separate court action found Clark not guilty, Oliver found he'd crossed the lines set by the Conflict of Interest Act, which includes provisions around avoiding even the appearance of a conflict. "It was my view that the loss of his high office constituted in and of itself as heavy a penalty as could be imposed upon any politician and I therefore did not recommend the imposition of any penalty."

The other complaint involved the late Liberal Jeremy Dalton, who wrote letters on official letterhead to public officials on behalf of a relative. "I found him in violation of the act and reported to the Speaker that I thought the offence was due to inadvertence, that I had discussed the matter with the member and felt that the offence would not be repeated.

"I was wrong; it was repeated and the member was excluded from his party caucus."

Temptation's 'ugly head'

Oliver's other suggestions include covering the legal expenses of members accused of violating the act, allowing professionals to work enough to maintain their qualifications and renaming the act to remove "conflict of interest" from its title.

"I suggest that 'Integrity Act' or 'Members' Integrity Act' (as in Ontario) presents a more positive image of our function and is preferable to the negative image conveyed by the use of the words 'conflict of interest,'" he said. "It seems better for the public to associate the word 'integrity' with Members of the Legislative Assembly rather than the words 'conflict of interest.'"

He wrote, "It is the constant endeavour of this office to prevent conflicts of interest from arising at all."

In general, he said, MLAs are "honourable, honest and well-intentioned" people who would never knowingly break the conflict rules. "When on rare occasions a Member approached the borderline of the apparent conflict of interest prohibition it was generally due to a lack of that life experience that enables one to recognize temptation before it rears it [sic] ugly head."

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Andrew MacLeod is The Tyee's Legislative Bureau chief in Victoria. You can reach him here.

25 Comments:

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  • Grumpy

    4 years ago

    Nope...........

    ...........

    Quote:
    In general, he said, MLA's are "honourable, honest and well-intentioned" people who would never knowingly break the conflict rules.

    Today, most MLA's are self serving nobodies, who jump at the change to slurp at the public trough. Honor and honesty are forgotten virtues in today's fascist style governments. MLA's must be treated more harshly, to make the public see that they must be kept honest.

    What do you think Les..............

  • BC Mary

    4 years ago

    Waiting for trouble?

    Isn't there some sort of M.L.A. 101 introductory session to inform newbies about their duties? About the ethics of public service? How about beefing that programme up?

    Seems like it would be better to provide instruction than to devise punishments and then skulk around the corridors of power waiting for wrongdoing to happen.

  • Van Isle

    4 years ago

    I think it should manditory

    I think it should manditory that every MLA and his staff should take an ethics course when they first come into government and then have a refresher every year after that. On the question about gifts; there should be none, zilch, nada for the MLA, their spouse and any adult children who live with their parents. MLA's have a position of privledge and they should remember that. They don't have a position of entitlement.

  • Skywalker

    4 years ago

    Pass the course but fail the practical.

    Consider this example. An acquaintance comes to a politician offering to do some work on the politician's house. The understanding is that he will send a bill for his services. When he's done he never sends a bill and he doesn't cash a cheque for supplies either, he applies for benefit from the government and foolishly tells his buddies that he has a good chance to get the benefit because he's a good buddy of the politician. Word gets out and the politician is the bad guy. Even though the acquaintance is found guilty in court and the politician is found innocent.

    The conclusion is that politicians should accept no gifts from anyone - you never know when they will apply for a benefit or ask you to do something for them. They should accept no campaign donations and definitely not from corporations. They should not have any friends who might want some help from the government. You also never know how a person doing a favour for a politician with interpret the action to others. So to be on the safe side you should not take any gifts at all.

    Now how many of the Campbell crew would survive under these rules?

  • SharingIsGood

    4 years ago

    can politicians be kept honest?

    I think with this Liberal government, the government for big business, the question is more aptly put: " Can big business be kept honest?"

    I see the two, Big Business and Liberals, as both sides of the same coin.

    Eisenhower told us to be wary of the military-industrial complex. I consider BC as a colony of the fascist US military-industrial complex under the provincial Liberals (and, for that matter, all of Canada under the Liberals and Conservatives). BC has become a cog in the great US wheel of tyranny. With Canada's resources, there has been no need for the massive sell-out of our sovereignty to NAFTA and big business. Rather than have given so much away to big business, BC's politicians could have been maintaining existing and building new infrastructure.

    The loss of native salmon is BC's canary in the mine shaft. The salmon are telling the politicians that they need to be honest caretakers of our provincial resources. The people on all of our city streets are telling the politicians that they are giving too much to the corporations.

    Nice analogy of a deck, Skywalker. It seems that the big business MSM only makes the NDP pay for its mistakes - over and over and over again.

  • Skywalker

    4 years ago

    There is one flaw...

    ... and that is that the only people who could be MLA's would be those rich enough to finance their own campaigns. The MLA's recently got themselves a 29% raise. For that they could fund their own campaigns, You would just need to legislate a lower election finance limit. Fewer political ads on TV might be a pleasant change.

    All those corporations who funded (and still do)the Liberals have received a benefit many times over for doing so in tax breaks, less restrictive legislation and lower pollution standards. Nobody including HAD has ever said a thing about that conflict of interest and it goes on and one. Let one NDP Government change labour legislation that provides a balance and you know the chant.

  • sdgreen

    4 years ago

    But the NDP Failed

    This whole subject is nonsense. It really does not matter what political party or entity is in power; they will be influenced and that is what politics really is.

    The previous NDP Government consummed much snake oil in the form of special deals for the Unions, for creating useless programs, for spending billions of dollars on problems that in the end could not be solved.

    Teh NDP also killed the economy by scaring awsy investment through application of high taxation. Labour laws became an extention of the Union with the NDP government caving in almost all the time.

    Does not matter what government is in power, the key is who can provide the best environment to live, so far the BC Liberals are by far the best.

  • Frank

    4 years ago

    NDP succeeded

    Quote:
    Does not matter what government is in power, the key is who can provide the best environment to live, so far the BC Liberals are by far the best.

    Unless you need healthcare, an education, or you're homeless, or a child in care, or you just don't like public debt that is used to support business and not people...

    If you're a business owner, vote for the people other business owners support with their millions, BC Liberal. If you're not, look at the alternative.

    An alternative by the way that ran the province better with less money and in spite of the opposition of those such as business and media that decided to make themselves enemies of the government and proclaim from the rooftops every day that they were living in a Marxist state and that the sky would surely fall... one day... some day... couldn't figure out why it hadn't already happened...but it would... soon... maybe next year...

  • Frank

    4 years ago

    Healthcare

    Remember how back in the 90's when the NDP defended healthcare from the Paul Martin cuts and Campbell and his disciples all screamed that

    A. the NDP was running up debt when other provinces were making healthcare cuts and that it was bankrupting us?

    and

    B that what this province needed was the BC Libs who could somehow make those cuts without hurting service delivery?

    How did that work out? Ah yes, healthcare funding was restored plus even more dollars than ever were thrown at the BC Libs but they made cuts anyway to services (but not to the overall health budget) and strangely enough outcomes worsened while at the same time they spent more than ever.

    And as for bankrupting the province, debt is higher than ever under the Libs.

    Wow, that is some management team they have there. Dave Nonis must be in charge of healthcare too.

  • City Person

    4 years ago

    Orientation

    New MLAs indeed undertake an orientation when they are new to the Legislature.

    I may also add, that choirboys rarely become politicians in my experience. The real payoff of a pol is what comes later in one's career.

  • City Person

    4 years ago

    Charity List?

    Quote:
    The MLA's recently got themselves a 29% raise.

    I was wondering if any posters here actually have a list of the charities the NDP members said they were going to give their raise to? I have contacted my (NDP) MLA on the issue several times and they haven't got back to me. I wonder why?

  • Skywalker

    4 years ago

    I can see it now.

    City Person wants to know what charities benefited from the NDP MLA's raises. I would also like to know what charities benefited form the Liberal MLA's raises but I already know the answer to that one. It sure didn't take sdgreen to come back with the worn out "special deals for unions" while ignoring the "special deals for corporate friends" by the liberals. You could be a bit less predictable and more consistent.

    Right on Frank! Do you think the tripled increases in commodity prices, increases in all sorts of fees and the Olympic shoveling money off the back of the provincial truck might have had something to do with the liberal good fortune. You wonder why they are now talking about caution for the economy in the years ahead. Is it because the Campbell's luck is running out? I wonder what excuse they will use then. Blame Glen!

  • BigMan

    4 years ago

    Detection - NOT!

    It's a shame they have to be "kept" honest. Not going to be easier to do it, that's for sure.

    Gordo and his merry band of men and women have slashed budgets and made it more difficult to undercover any wrong doing or conflict. This is certainly not the direction we should be going in order to have a more accountable government.

    By the way, has jolly old Mr Oliver been nipping on a bottle of the good stuff? How would increasing the amount of a gift the MLA's can receive help anything??

    Oh well, what can you expect from a government that allows itself to be run by a convicted drunk driver, has it's own "Top Cop" resign because HE is under investigation and all the while the premier and A/G know nothing about it?

    We sure have low standards...

  • BigMan

    4 years ago

    "Bang On" City person.....

    "I may also add, that choirboys rarely become politicians in my experience. The real payoff of a pol is what comes later in one's career"

    See John Les...

  • SharingIsGood

    4 years ago

    let's see the facts

    sdgreen said:
    "The previous NDP Government consummed much snake oil in the form of special deals for the Unions, for creating useless programs, for spending billions of dollars on problems that in the end could not be solved."

    I'd like to see a listing of the special deals that the NDP made. I'd like to see a list of the programs that were useless. I'd like to see an accounting of those programs. I'd then like to see it compared to the Liberal record of selling off our assets, our sovereignty and cost over-runs. Please produce more than rhetoric.

  • gwb

    4 years ago

    Which is the "real payoff" and how much later?

    BigMan said:

    "I may also add, that choirboys rarely become politicians in my experience. The real payoff of a pol is what comes later in one's career"

    See John Les...'

    -- so do you think that that Chilliwack/ALR thing wasn't the "real payoff" - that the "real payoff" either happened lately or was yet to come? Maybe sort of an "appetizer"?

  • trueman

    4 years ago

    why gifts at all?

    Is there any need for elected officials or government staff to be given gifts? Are they not paid wages? Why is there a limit at all? Why are they not simply advised that gifts are personal things and have no place in the public world? I do under stand that some cultures are compelled by custom, or a surfeit of stuff, to offer inducement or respect in the form of objects. If the gift cannot be resisted, let the world know that all of the gifts given to elected and hired officials in BC are donated to charity.
    How difficult is honesty anyway?

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    Simple enough solution.....

    Make salaries and raises an election issue for one, so that MLAs can no longer "self-administer" that particular "narcotic".....

    And tie together in some form or fashion, municipal and provincial politics, so that the municpalities have some sort of veto power. It may serve to keep the MLAs more grounded in the reality that the ordinary citizen must endure daily.......

  • Budd Campbell

    4 years ago

    CYNICISM NOT ALWAYS USEFUL

    Quote:
    In general, he said, MLA's are "honourable, honest and well-intentioned" people who would never knowingly break the conflict rules.

    Today, most MLA's are self serving nobodies, who jump at the change to slurp at the public trough.

    Altogether, Grumpy, I think this passage reveals more about your state of mind than that of most MLAs.

  • Budd Campbell

    4 years ago

    TOTAL FABRICATION

    Teh NDP also killed the economy by scaring awsy investment through application of high taxation. Labour laws became an extention of the Union with the NDP government caving in almost all the time.

    As you well know, sdgreen, these statements are a 100% total fabrication. Nothing of the sort ever occured and you know it. And so does Carol Taylor, her statements notwithstanding.

  • Luke Skywalker

    4 years ago

    Frank...

    Quote:
    And as for bankrupting the province, debt is higher than ever under the Libs.

    Oh come on Frank, you're smarter than that.

    I would then suggest that you contact Moody's, Standard & Poors, or DBRS with your information.

  • DPL

    4 years ago

    With the present wages, day

    With the present wages, day allowances, very fine pensions, I can see no reason that a MLA should be allowed any gift for herself/himself or family member. They throw the words honorable around with great abandon then some of them ask like minor things. Many average folk don't have perks of any kind. MLA's even subidised meals. when will it all stop? Sure most MLa's work had but for some the hardest work done is to get elected. What fools we all are to accept the things they do. Is money that important to them makes me wonder if some are in the wrong job and could take up bank robbery instead.

  • Skywalker

    4 years ago

    Here's the rub

    When you read the above it is pretty clear that until the whole notion of political spin is outlawed, nothing will change. Imagine getting a candidate to sign the Joe Friday declaration, "nothing but the facts" and we might have a way of defining honesty. Budd Campbell is correct and Luke ignores all debt from schools, universities, colleges and hospitals. Until then you can't trust the lot. But if you look at any group that does more for the average wage earner the NDP wins hands down. If you believe in trickle down economics and the rich and powerful need protection than the Liberals win hands down.

    If you are worried about the sell off of BC resources while taking massive campaign contributions from the companies that benefit then honesty can legitimately be questioned. It is corrupt by any name yet the liberals call it "good government". No wonder people are cynical.

  • Frank

    4 years ago

    Luke Skywalker

    Quote:
    I would then suggest that you contact Moody's, Standard & Poors, or DBRS with your information.

    You're telling me they don't read the Vancouver Sun? I posted the links to the articles on the budget when they appeared.

    If you disagree, argue with the Sun's financial columnists, that's where I got the numbers.

    The gist of their argument is that declaring debt to be "off book" when we're still liable for it means its still debt.

    The Libs pour a lot of concrete, more than the NDP did, and that isn't cheap Luke.

  • SharingIsGood

    4 years ago

    honesty = truth

    I believe that honesty does not only relate to not stealing from the public, nor getting special favours/considerations; honesty relates to truthfulness.

    There are basically four kinds of lies/untruths: 1) outright lies to cover a misdeed or to gain something that does not rightly belong to the liar, 2) a lie to protect a the liar from harm that could come from ill-wishing others, 3)lies of omission (failure to inform). 4) there is the lie that people make to be entertaining. Most of these entertaining lies are done tongue-in-cheek with the audience being relatively certain that it may not be true. The second type of lie can only be rightfully used if there is emminent danger of another person committing a hurtful/wrongful act or if there is a perceived danger of that happening. The other two types of lies (1&3) are the lies that many politicians use on a regular basis. They are very hurtful to the electorate. The electorate are the bosses of these politicians, and they are untruthful to their bosses. In the real world of work, these people would be fired with more than adequate cause.

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