customer satisfaction at YVR

You must be joking - perhaps you could ask Robert Dziekanski about YVR as a customer friendly place.

As for BC Ferries - the service is awful - much much worse than it was as little as five years ago - and don't even mention drop off and pick up parking. That isn’t customer service, it’s studied indifference to the whole idea of customers and service….

I'm a BC Ferries customer of fairly long standing and believe me I'm far from satisfied - Campbell/Hahn are ruining the service as rapidly as they can - and losing money into the bargain.

Nice to see you're still pulling the party line though Luke. Are you aware of the big changes in store for the Bureau of Public Affairs?

G West: Quote:customer

G West:

YVR is tops in North America, 2007, according to passenger surveys:

http://www.worldairportawards.com/Awards_2007/ResultsFull.htm

G West:

A survey of passengers from 2006 shows that customer satisfaction was at an 89% level, an increase over the previous year.

http://www.bcferries.com/files/AboutBCF/cst/PUBLIC_REPORT_-_FINAL_-_CST_2006.pdf

Ya gotta try and figure out

Ya gotta try and figure out who does these surveys about "customer satifaction"? Another question; what is customer satisfaction? Do ya think it could be some 'professional liar', oops, public relations wonk sitting in an office and churns out these stats?

Exactly Van Isle

Probably they poll the gang from OIC 656 - God knows there's enough of them.

The ferry service is awful - ask someone who lives on a Gulf Island Luke Baby, you'll see how satisfied folks are.

And, I'll put a lot more stock in Robert Dziekanski and his mother's opinion than any group of world travellers. Being number one in a big fat group of 3s (especially since the Americans have turned their airports into armed camps) isn't exactly difficult.

And I notice you didn't touch the parking and drop off question - or deal with the three minute fascists.

let's hire glen clark to put

let's hire glen clark to put everything right.

Now you have to take a look

EDITED FOR LEGAL CONCERNS -- TYEE MODERATOR

Vancouver Airport

I have traveled a lot and have found YVR and excellent facility. It has hands down better than Seattle and will be even better once the Canada Line links it up with downtown.

My major complaints about YVR these: the walk from the plane to immigration is too long, although the terminal itself is very impressive. There are too few officers working at immigration although this is beyond YVR's control. Finally, there is no line for Canadian citizens which there should be, again beyond YVR's control.

As for Robert Dziekanski, the man was mentally challenged and a convicted criminal yet he was allowed into Canada. His situation could have happened in any airport I have even been in. BUT, he would not have been issued a visa to most developed countries to begin with. Besides, it was the RCMP that was responsible for his death, not he airport authority.

I am pretty new to this board but pretty old to the world. There are always people how see the hole and not the donut and I don't pay them much heed and doubt I ever will. There are far better things to do than saving posts from here!

Escalating itself out of business

Would-be passengers are voting by staying away. They are sick of being milked.

A land link has to come, That's the answer. And it's inevitable.

City Person,

I'm appalled at your smearing the victim of death by Taser, that occurred at Vancouver Airport. The Airport administration certainly cannot be held blameless. How different might the situation have been had an interpreter been available?

Of course, the apparent trigger-happiness cannot be ignored.

As to the food why did tour

As to the food why did tour Bus drivers who came into our restaurant tell the tourists to fill up because they didn't want to eat the Ferry Food.

Standard and Poors

I can provide you with a whole list of companies that 'used' to have a great S&P rating...signifies nothing Luke.

That's the problem when all you really have is the party line book to read from - you stop thinking for yourself and go on auto pilot.

Maybe the new emphasis on setting 'tone designation' will help; right now it's sounding awfully off key and hollow.

Notice is hereby given by the Public Affairs Bureau, Ministry of Finance of its intent to contract with the Aktiv Software Corporation to upgrade the current Today's News Online application and build upon existing performance measurement and analysis tools, including category assignment, tone designation, report mechanism and graphics package.

And, City Person

As for Robert Dziekanski, the man was mentally challenged and a convicted criminal yet he was allowed into Canada.

Kinda like our Premier, eh?

No Surprise

It certainly isn't any shock to find Kevin___oops, Luke Skywalker promptly on the job defending his alter ego Kevin Falcon and the transportational paradise that is British Columbia. After all, I'm sure that massaging the message on Tyee threads about this subject is part of the OIC contract job description.

By the way, maybe a billion more should be allocated to the Sea to Die Highway, Andre Agassi wasn't impressed!

As to the polling of YVR hostages (what else can one call people herded from room to room and held there for security reasons), as GW pointed out.......just before City Person blamed the victim. BTW City Person, stay there, please!

Obviously Mr. Dziekanski was unavailable to respond to the poll. The RCMP meanwhile have moved on and have apparently focused their tasering practices on the disabled. Mentioning BC Ferries and Customer Satisfaction in the same sentence is oxymoronic to the power of at least 12.

Meanwhile, keep up the good work Luke, Kevin may yet recommend a bonus for such a good little beaver. Before I go, welcome to simonfraser, by the way, how many handles is that now?

Living on the Island

mcdull, anyone who chooses to live on the Island has to realise that there is a cost associated with doing so. That splendid isolation that most over there love also has its drawbacks. I mostly find that time is the problem. Any time I go to see family in Victoria I walk on and get picked up over there. They all have cars anyway. It is also smart to have a rental car company meet you at Swartz Bay. It has never been cheap to take a car on the ferry and with the price of fuel these days, it is not going to get any cheaper.

When I travel, I work out how much time it will take and how much it costs and balance which is better For example, taking the city bus to Tsawwassen and the city bus into Victoria takes only about an hour longer than taking your car on the ferry. It also saves on greenhouse gas emissions.

Another example is flying from Seattle. Because of the rotten US economy and the fact fewer Americans are traveling, there are some really cheap fares from Seattle and it only costs $56 return from Vancouver on Amtrak. I might add that Seattle Airport is an awful facility. YVR is hands down better.

The high price of taking a vehicle on the ferry (which is really one way to reduce global warming)has caused many people to walk on the ferry. I remember the high speed ferry from downtown Victoria to downtown Vancouver in the early 90's. What a great service but ahead of its time. I would love it if BC Ferries could go more into passenger only ferries.

Gwest, Gordon Campbell is a Canadian citizen and as such, he cannot ever be refused entry into Canada. Nor can any other Canadian for that matter.

Well City Person I disagree

The analogy of someone who'd been convicted of a criminal offence - coming back into Canada (something you said had some bearing on the 'treatment' of Robert Dziekanski at YVR) seemed far too apropos to me.

Gordon Campbell is a convicted criminal - he travels in and out of Canada all the time - I see ads on tv telling Canadians to apply for a pardon to ensure they can continue to travel - haven't you seen those?

I think my metaphor was very apt and I think your excusing the obvious 'mishandling' (actually I should say murder) of Robert Dziekanski and the criminal disregard for his mother at YVR is pretty damn pathetic. I hope she successfully sues both the airport and the RCMP for millions.

As for your satisfaction with the BC Ferries Corporation, let me suggest you put yourself in the position of someone who has to use the 'service' to get to and from work; someone who isn't retired and can look upon their little ocean cruises as little more than a pleasant sojourn.

Believe me, it changes your perspective in a hell of a hurry.

There's a real world out there and retired people who think everything's just fine and dandy often haven't got a clue.

[COMMENT DIRECTLY OFFENSIVE TO ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Island Highway

Grumpy, times change. The Island Highway, particularly the stretch from Parksville to Campbell River, was a death trap. It was well overdue to be upgraded.

As for development, with 7 bn people in the world, it is going to come here. It can be planned or happen hodge podge. A good example was the Bamberton development in Mill Bay. In the early nineties the locals banded together and killed it. In the fifteen years since, more housing has been built in the area than Guy Dauncey ever planned for Bamberton. The failure to plan said development has led to poisoned wells all over the Cobble Hill area because the required infrastructure, in this case water and sewer, was and is not there. The locals failed to notice that lots of building was going on one house at at time. The revenue generated by Bamberton would have paid for water and sewer, which was pointed out at the time but the locals could not see past their fances.

Eventually, the area up to Pemberton, over to Prince George and down to Hope will all be populated. It is absolutely going to happen. It is forecast that at least 750,000 people will move into that area by 2020. Do we want piecemeal growth like in the Cowichan Valley or do we want to plan it?

The Constitution

GWest, if you are unhappy with Gordon Campbell's right to enter Canada, you can petition your MP to have an amendment to the Constitution made, in particular Section 6 (1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

I don't think I have but I would think such a thing would refer to traveling to other countries such as the USA. This is because a Canadian can never be denied entry to Canada.

Let's disclose Counsel here

[OFFENSIVE CONTENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

We are still a little cheesed that Hawaii 5---000000h wouldn't respect any of my client's myriad privileges, but we would like to move on and blame any misunderstanding or problems on the NDP. We are still almost as "new" as our friend Stevie Harper's really "new" government and will require at least another decade to fix everything the nasty NDPs broke.

Thank you.......................

That's not the point

[EDITED. -MODERATOR.]

You raised a number of facile arguments about the murder of Robert Dziekanski - I simply pointed out that we have a premier who is as challenged in that department as Mr Dziekanski was - do you not remember writing those words?

If you can't understand the fact that a convicted person like Campbell might not be able to go to his little hideaway in Maui any more because of that conviction - you might be able to understand that someone with a criminal record (I've heard of people being denied entry to the United States for writing about drugs) like Campbell's might have had his wings trimmed a little eh? You seemed to think it was germane to a discussion of YVR in Mr Dziekanski's case - personally I think it isn't at all.

I realize this requires some subtlety of thought [EDITED. -MODERATOR.]. None of this has anything whatever to do with the Constitution and everything to do with your specious argument.

As for Canadians being denied entry to Canada, I think perhaps you should check with Maher Arar about that - as I recall, it was the RCMP's complicity with the Americans which led to his deportation to Syria to be tortured for months - a slightly different situation of course - but one in which his charter rights were severely trampled.

As in the comparison between the dead man and Premier Campbell - the question of who you are is far more important in this country than you'd probably acknowledge.

The world has moved on considerably since you retired.

Retired? YEA!

Glad to hear I have retired. I was looking forward it it.

As for the Arar case, I believe he was apprehended in New York. It is a travesty what happened to him. Me thinks that the RCMP could use some effective civilian oversight. The same goes for the case of Mr Dziekanski. I do take some issue that he was admitted into Canada in the first place, however.

I also believe that in Hawaii, a DUI is not a criminal offense. I believe it should be but I cannot vote in their state elections. However, the fact remains that no Canadian can be denied entry in Canada under any circumstance, and that also applies to politicians we dislike.

Entry denied

I don't know about a Canadian being denied entry into Canada, or not, Mr. Arar not withstanding. However in the new United States of Scared Sh**less, an American without a current passport can be denied entry to the land of his/her birth.

Of course that may soon be the equivalent of being denied entry to Hell.....go figger! It could get extremely interesting if the "Very Great Depression" predicted by many European economists does come around on the guitar. Just imagine a bunch of hungry, evicted and unemployed people with all those guns wandering around with nothing but time, ammunition and anger. I doubt that even Blackwater is big enough to handle the situation and the Military is kinda busy elsewhere and worn out.

I'm guessing Americans would be more likely to use their wheelbarrows to haul extra ammo rather than the price of a loaf of bread as in pre-WWII Germany. The wise shopper would probably choose a whole bakery of stuff for one or two bullets rather than a wheelbarrow of money for one loaf.

Viva V.I.

I was born on Vancouver Island as was my father. We did not choose to live here we were born here and the attitude of lower mainlanders towards Vancouver Island is why we need our own Province we are not your poor hick cousins but get treated like we don't deserve any upgrades just let it deteriorate.

USA entry

I have been to many countries and there is one fact in them all, Canada included. Any country can deny entry to any non-citizen any time they want for no reason whatsoever. Even having a valid visa is no guarantee.

A passport is about the best ID you are ever going to have and anyone traveling outside his/her country is best advised to have one. A Canadian or an American can in fact enter the USA without a passport provided they have proof of residence and birth but why not just get a passport?

Canadians got very comfortable with the idea of traveling to the USA without a passport but this has changed in the USA's post 9-11 paranoia, which has, fortunately, abated a bit recently.

Arar

It was the RCMP who told the CIA to render mr Arar to SYRIA - they were also the ones salivating to do something to please their American cousins - you think pee wee would have paid off otherwise.

Your point about Dziekanski was cheap and facile - his treatment was simply offered as a refutation of your claim the YVR was world class.

Mr Campbell's offence was a criminal one here in Canada and as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters - white folks who speak English get passibly better treatment in this country than swarthy fellows who speak some kinda 'Russki' dialect...in fact, this is a very racist place and it shows up at YVR every day.

Since you're retired, you should try travelling in a foreign country where no one speaks English...it might give you a sense of what the experience Mr Dziekanski and his mother endured was like.

As for Gordon Campbell, I'd be more than willing to let him out of the country - despite his criminal record - if he promised never to return.

Mad Cow!

City Person says:

Only someone who has been herded into a large, dirty, diseased urban feed lot like a modern city could come up with such a [EDITED. -MODERATOR.] statement like that!! The future based on perpetual growth does not exist, as we are now finding out. The temporary wealth creation push to burn all the coal, oil and gas we can to make things easier for us, has failed. We now see that things are going to be harder in the future and the math proving this is so easy a fifth grader can understand it.
Only a devoted MSM diciple can argue for the growth equals progress equation when all the facts point otherwise. Basic Chomsky will explain why your thought process is flawed. Retired? More like Extinct!

Viva VI, too!

mcdull, that is a great idea. Get your own province. I suggest you contact your MP and MLA and get the ball rolling and best of luck. I am sure your ferry service will improve with it, too. Take, for example the fares from Dover to Calais. A much better deal than it used to be. The competition from the Channel Tunnel has drastically reduced the cost. For two adults and a car, the return trip is now 55 pounds, less than BC Ferries.

I have always found that the routes with the most competition have the best service and lowest prices. The facilities on the P&O Dover-Calais routes simply put BC Ferries to shame.

GWest

GWest, your point is well taken and best taken to the ballot box next May. I agree with you on the Arar case. The RCMP does indeed appear to need some better regulation in light of the recent series of negative incidents.

clubofframe, the Constitution guarantees mobility rights to all Canadians to live and work in any province they choose. We are going to see mass migrations to British Columbia as more and more boomers head here for the milder winters. However, the Constitution can be amended and if you take issue with the mobility section, you can petition your MP for said amendment. Otherwise, the population of BC will continue to grow

Cuckoo come roost

Sounds like Ron Erwin is back...

Yes, Rac

Yes, Rac, we are going to see people think much more carefully about when and where they choose to drive and this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Van Isle Secession

City Person, you are so careful to appear so reasonable and retreat to "official" protocol at every opportunity. Citing the Charter, sharing quick tutorials on how to initiate political action etc. However:

The likelihood of Vancouver Island being allowed to secede from the rest of the province is essentially nil for the same reason that Stevie Harper won't recognize Kosovo independence, no matter how much his hero GeeDubya would like him to do so.

Just like Canadian recognition of Kosovo would stir a hornets' nest of separatists first in Quebec, then Alberta and could Newfoundland and BC be far behind, VanIsle the province would start a chain of events that would leave the center of our British Columbian Universe, the Lower Mainland, a western Hong Kong as the rest of the regions raced to sever their connections to the place where all the money goes.

Hell, they'll be fine, the wealth of the province is all created on Howe Street anyhow doncha know?

By the way City Guy, when and if it comes to crunch time, just stay there in the city, please. Don't bother sending us money, we'll make do with what we have, like water and food and such. You guys should do well also without us being a drag on you all. We may decide to sell OUR power to Phoenix Arizona though, we might need some currency in Mad Max's new order!

Denying Entry

BTW Mr Uptown Guy, as far as:

There are (estimates vary) 8 to 12 million Mexicans in the USA that you should share this gem with. Where in the heck did they come from?

In the future I'll be much more concerned about Americans crossing into Canada than being able to go there.

DUI and fast ferries

"I also believe that in Hawaii, a DUI is not a criminal offense."

Sorry, but a misdemeanor, what Campbell was convicted of, is a criminal offense. There are two levels of criminal offences in the US. The misdemeanor being the lesser, and the felony being the more serious. In Canada, we have the same thing, but they are called summary offences and indictable offences. Yes, you can go to jail for misdemeanors in the US and Summary offences in Canada. Yes, if Campbell is asked if he has ever been convicted of a criminal offence he has to answer yes. Hopefully, we can end the willful ignorance of people trying to down play the seriousness of what Campbell did.

As to the ferries, I have for the past dozen years or so gone to Miracle Beach on Vancouver to camp. Last year and this one, I have decided to go elsewhere simply because the ferry costs are too prohibitive. They have lost my business as I have lots of other choices of where to go for holidays.

They said it couldn't happen

The dramatic surge in purchase of Vancouver Island property, and real estate development, by Canadians of Asian origin may have had a purpose not foreseen by B.C.'s government when the Island voted to secede from B.C. and Canada. With the secession comes the renaming of the island Van Kong Island.

On linking with China, the biggest surprise was that, although the Island population comprised 55 per cent voters of Asian origin, the vote to secede was 82 per cent, with 7 per cent abstaining.

Temporary facilities for governing B.C. have been set up in New Westminster.

OK, you've got your plot outline. Don't forget - you got it from skeptikool. See ya later!

With all the money spent on

With all the money spent on FastCats, Super-C-Class ferries, crashed ferries, sunken ferries, broken down ferries, ferry security, ferry politics, ferry studies, we could have had one fine fixed link.

Ferries and Highways

Actually, woody, the BNA Act indeed stated that ferries were in fact extensions of the highways, which is why the Federal Government paid for ferries, and later a bridge, to PEI. Foe some reason not known to me, that was never applied to this province.

I'd wager most of them entered the US legally and some illegally. But since they provide a huge pool of cheap labour, I don't see anybody in a real hurry to send them back to Mexico, either.

Maple Leaf 1

So where does the Trans-Canada Highway end?
At the north end of the Lion's Gate Bridge or in Downtown Victoria? I always thought it went from St. Johns to Victoria, but what do I know?

Maybe City Feller should get busy with his MPs and MLAs (and maybe talk to Luke Skywalker - our local transportation expert) and get that tunnel under Salt Spring and Galiano happening. Eventually BC Ferries will be cheap and we'll be treated like foreign dignitaries while aboard.

"Oh, Steward, could you freshen up my Lime Rickey, please and would you mind fetching my shades from the car deck?

Mexicans Not Denied

Maybe I was too subtle for you Townie, but that was kinda my point, you can't really deny entry to those that don't even bother to ask. The much vaunted "Fence" won't be much of an impediment either as long as it has huge gaps for golf courses and any other property owned by people whose wishes are important to the people in Washington D.C. that aren't down with the visual pollution of something like the wall between Israel and Palestine. (Plus those same landowners and golf course operators really would miss the cheap labor).

Free Boats

Frank:

Equipped with 100Hp Johnsons or Mercurys I should hope!

kootcoot

We need to be comfy, so how about something like this

http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/558476543.html

Now being a guy that the new ferry increases penalizes, as I don't go on the major routes, I like poking around the small routes on the islands and other spots, perhaps I need a Drift-R-Cruise :-)

As long as the damn things aren't built in Germany :-)

Tunnels

I saw some engineering studies for a fixed link while I was doing some work for the Ministry of Highways in the 1990s. The government the day, as many governments have, was interested in whether it was practical.

In a nutshell, it wasn't. The levels of traffic could not even cover the maintenance costs let alone construction capital. Several comparisons were made with the Channel Tunnel, which was actually much easier to build and services a market of three hundred million people. Even then it has had a hard time making money. The length of a tunnel to Vancouver Island would also require that vehicles be loaded onto shuttles, kind of defeating the whole purpose. The end result was the Pacificats but that is another issue.

So until then, bring a book and your own lunch and enjoy the trip as much as you can.

City Person

And don't forget to add that on the bright side there'll be less in the way of other passengers.

I don't know who's in charge of PR at BC Ferries but perhaps they should have renamed their fare increases and fuel levies, "carbon taxes" and told everyone the point of the tax was to drive down ridership to fight climate change and make the Salish Sea safer for boaters.

Walk Ons

There still seem to be plenty of foot passengers and it can only grow. The last time I actually took a vehicle there (before I started renting on that side) I actually had to wait a sailing, not because there were too many cars but because there were too many walk ons!

Well, I don't see that happening any time in the near future but one never knows.

Evidence

Pretty clear evidence the sky is indeed falling and that BC Ferries is going broke.

And here is the link to all recent BC Ferries Annual Reports:

http://www.bcferries.com/about/AR.html

Ivestment

People do that all the time. Anybody have an RRSP or and RESP? Those funds are invested all over the world.

I am also irked by the absurd prices I see in Canada. I take every opportunity I get to spend money outside the country if the price is better.

Hawaii is still a little expensive for holidays and is not very exotic anyway, sharingisgood, but you can have a wonderful time in Central America. Flights there from Seattle are surprisingly affordable, less than $700. You could have a very nice two week vacation for less than $2000 if you stay away from the tourist traps.

The Premier's presence is being requested in Studio 54

Maybe if they actually get the sucker on the stand where he's compelled to answer (unlike in the ‘liegislature’ the few times he's actually there) someone could ask him who he's hired to turn out the lights when he's finished playing silly buggers with the public's assets.

Because that's about all that will be left.

I heard a character from Accenture on the radio this morning telling us how he's guaranteed a way to ensure the public gets value from the public services that his little knock-shop offers on contract to the government.

Oh and cityguy - this isn't just something that needs airing during elections - if you're familiar with the way the press and the media do things in this province that statement is probably the funniest thing you've written today.

Be afraid, be very afraid - he couldn't actually address a single specific question about the services his employer offers to this province....including BC Hydro.

And then there is the other,

And then there is the other, more expensive, alternative - air travel.

Comox Valley Airport (YQQ):
(passenger counts)

2001: 72,641
2006: 238,612

http://www.comoxairport.com/quarterly_reports_q107.asp

Victoria International Airport:
(passenger counts)

2006: 1.4 million (up 5.4%)

http://www.victoriaairport.com/resources/VAAAR2006Final.pdf

Alternatives?

GWest, if you have a better alternative to the democratic process and the rule of law, I would like to hear it.

Actually these reports do

Actually these reports do not give us any idea of the hidden debt. The reports keep coming that something is wrong but the risks are hidden in how the numbers are presented.

Luke Skywalker, you will

Luke Skywalker, you will find the same thing happening all over the world. As the cost of automobile travel increases, people will travel the most economical and convenient way. For example, it now costs more for two people to drive to Las Vegas than to fly.

Just have a look at the number of out of province license plates you see around compared to a few years ago.

City Person

I'm not GWest but I'm all for democracy and the rule of law if it happens.

To get democracy I'd like to see a system where who you vote for makes a difference. I think that would help alleviate so-called voter apathy.

I'd like to see the rules applied to adoption of STV be applied to government itself. If less than 60% of the population shows up to vote its considered a vote against the system itself and nobody gets elected.

I'd like to see the rule of law be introduced whereby regardless of your ability to hire good legal representation, and regardless of your occupation, your chances are just as good.

Democracy and the rule of law, both great ideas, when do we get started?

Sharing is Good

Excellent advice SIG, I mean if Gordo and Gang do it, it's gotta be the way to go, eh?

Seen the wind

Woody...there are huge ocean going freighters using auxiliary sails now. Saves on fuel...
great idea for the ferries.

Sharing is Good

The message from the gov't does seem to be, "don't buy BC".

I'm willing to bet they sing a different tune when it comes to the Olympics though. Everyone will be encouraged to support "our" games.

Frank Said: Quote:Any

Frank Said:

The figures listed above were for the entire year or fiscal year ending March 31, 2007.

The financial statement utilized by the author were the quarterly report ending December 31, 2007.

No passenger/vehicular counts are contained therein.

Historically, BC Ferries has always incurred losses during the low-season, which is more than made up for by the high-season.

An interesting footnote to that quarterly report ending December 31, 2007 though.

Year over year, the last quarter of 2007 showed an $8 million increase in revenue. If one annualizes that figure, it equates to a $32 million increase.

That tells me that perhaps passenger/vehicular counts did not, in fact, decrease during the last quarter.

woody's seen the wind

Sails is a great idea but only if we can have an annual "talk like a pirate day".

Luke Skywalker

So then why would BC Ferries offer explanations of why the counts decreased if no actual decrease occurred?

Or is it simply a case of they're making more revenue in spite of less passengers because of the higher fares they're charging?

Rule of Law

Like Frank, this caught my eye:

We can agree, I do have one minor stipulation though. I know this might seem weird, but I think that Gordon Campbell and his Henchmen should ALSO have to follow due process and the rule of law.

They could start by ceasing and desisting this practice of alienating land from the ALR (which we will miss immensely very soon) under the guise of "treaty making."
This is just a sleazy way of removing agricultural land by means other than "due process."

Of course the other thing they could do to show me that they to adhere to the "rule of law" would be to start complying with the orders that Justice Bennett has been issuing for the last four or five years. I know if I ignored court orders for that many days, much less years, I would be cooling my heels in the Crowbar Hotel.

I'm not sure that being under oath can be taken that seriously when it comes to some folks, but it would be a good start. People with nothing to hide generally don't obfuscate and hide stuff.

Oh yeah and they could quit sayin' it is "before the courts" in the house and then issue edicts about ongoing litigation from the steps or sidewalk (looking at you StoneWally.)

One last thought - where do clear statements such as "I will not sell B.C. Rail" (having lost the previous election partly because of saying the opposite) having any meaning fit into the "democratic process." I could run for Premier and promise everybody $1,000,000 cash, as long as I don't have to actually, you know, cough it up once elected.

Or did Gordon not lie because he had Dave Basi sell it for him, so technically he didn't sell it...........curious!

RRRrrr

RRRrrr timber me britches, now, get those decks swabbed, Frank, now up with that yard arm sail you land lubber

kootcoot

Don't forget, if we had one law for all, you could grab foreigners and hand them over for torture. You could even "waterboard" them yourself as a cheaper form of family entertainment than taking the 3 ferries and several hundred dollars it requires to get your family to Cortez Island from Vancouver, and back.

woody, I'm thinking of a sort of "Arrr, I sailed the Salish Sea and all I got was this lousy Sunshine Breakfast"

Andrew

Thank you kindly for that. And its always great to see a columnist stand behind what he writes.

I take it you missed this city guy:

Oh and cityguy - this isn't just something that needs airing during elections - if you're familiar with the way the press and the media do things in this province that statement is probably the funniest thing you've written today.

You implied that democracy and the rule of law was something that, now how did you put it?

Oh Yeah, this way:
GWest, your point is well taken and best taken to the ballot box next May.

Well, I don't think the ballot box means diddilly squat to the CEO premier we have now anyway - if actually keeping the promises he made meant anything to him it might - it doesn't.

Therefore, pardon me if I don't restrict my politicking to the months of April and May 2009 - I'll be sticking and goading that criminal every chance I get. And I'll be sticking to anyone who pretends that things are getting better in this province for the vast majority of people and families: Because, in my opinion, if what we have now is democratic and effective government I've just about had my fill of it.

When my Premier refuses to even answer the simplest question in the House - and he does - then we're not living in a democracy any more.

As long as he's going to give the citizens of this place the middle finger then I think it's time for folks to look to other ways to make their points. Laws enforced by crooks and snivelers don't have any moral force and that's the state we're in in this province.

So please, no lectures on democracy - until we have a government that believes in discussion and consultation and not closure you don't have a leg to stand on.

And neither does Campbell. Like wrote above here, it will be interesting to see what the little man does have to say when he ends up in the witness box without the gang of yes men and women who sub for him while he’s gallivanting around and making ‘green’ plans.

Quote:Other Routes: Vehicle

Vehicle Increase: +7,528
Passenger Increase: +18,745

According to the document these relate only to: "Our other routes consist of 19 regulated routes and eight small unregulated routes primarily serving northern and southern Gulf Islands and the Sunshine Coast."

Luke

Yes, of course. Why did you say "only"?

Nice to see the bureau

Nice to see the bureau provides 'accurate' figures.

Back to you Andrew.

Maybe we should declare a

talk like a pirate day....ARRRGH!

Cause piracy is exactly what's been going on since Davey Hahn took over the wheelhouse.

By fixed link I didn't mean

By fixed link I didn't mean tunnel, of course I meant a bridge/causeway. But I do understand we have to have the Super-C-Class ferries so that their riders can subsidize the Mayne Queen, Queen of Cumberland, Queen of Alberni, Coquitlam, Oak Bay, Cowichan, Surrey, ect

G

I vote we charge him with piracy, cover him in Triple-O sauce and then keelhaul him Mr West and send Davey Hahn to meet Davey Jones.

For what he charges on the Powell River route alone it is enough to warrant such a fate.

More Seats

Correct me if I am wrong, but to form a government in a parliamentary democracy, you have to get the most seats. Is this incorrect?

Well, you will have your chance in about 14 months. I hope the person you support gets enough votes to be an MLA. You might even consider running yourself. I would like to hear more of what you have to say.

Frank

You haven't been following what's going on in the Leg have you?

Debate on the estimates has been severly restricted, moved out of the assembly chamber and into a committee room and ramed through with closure.

We don't have democracy now now.

Which seems lost on you city guy.

Waiting for an election is stupid - these guys and their tactics have ot be outed now and with the likes of Canwest Global on the job you can be sure nothing will come out in the media unless there's blood on it.

Your naive faith in elections every four years is pathetic.

NLN

And how is boats for all any different than BC Ferries or a fixed link?

Its all taxpayer money NLN.

Frank

Its all taxpayer money NLN.

I never suggested that it was different Frank, just a reminder to you that neither option is "free".

NLN

I appreciate that but please rest in the knowledge that I know where the money comes from.

And How?

Interesting. And just how do you propose doing such a thing? I am interested to know.

Well, for a lack of a better alternative, I stick to the old democratic process. Perhaps believing in democracy is indeed naive.

BC Mary

Yes, Mary, there are few ships I have ever been on that rival the two Spirit Boats, commissioned by the wingiest of our wingy premiers, Bill Vanderzalm.

Problem with Spirit boats is that they are not economical when they are not full. This is why there will be a new Super C on the Swartz Bay-Tsawwassen run starting this fall. I toured the Super C when it was at Canada place. It is a also a beautiful ship.

PeteL

PeteL don't hold your breath on anything new or earth shattering tomorrow from the TSB, in fact, prepare to be disappointed by their report.

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN THE 1990s

Coming back to BC Ferries, the fleet now dates to the early 1960's and not much was done during the 1990's besides the fastcats.

Similarly the ferry authority, now out of political hands, is focusing upon fleet and terminal upgrades as well as customer satisfaction in various categories. Food and beverage choices on ship and at terminal comes to mind for me.

All these statements are false. In the 1990s, the Spirit Class ferries, still much larger than the new German imports, were completed.

Food service changes, such as the White Spot burgers and the Pacific Buffet also came in the 1990s. One intensely right wing provincical bureaucrat once tried to tell me, in a hushed, conspiratorial tone of voice, that White Spot burgers were chosen by the NDP Govt because some Spot outlets were unionized. Needless to say this bureaucrat was "educated" at the University of Calgary.

The new terminal building at Tsawwassen wasn't needed. The existing building could have been expanded. But Premier Campbell and President Hahn wanted to turn all the stalls over to private businesses so as to reduce the number of unionized BCFMU jobs at the terminal.

The notion that the new "authority" and Martin Crilly of all people represent some kind of removal from politics is one of the best, or worst, jokes of 2008 so far!

Spirit Boats

The Spirit Boats were finished in 1993 and 1994 and were in fact commissioned by the Vander Zalm government. They are larger than the Super C class ships but are in fact too large to be profitable all year around. They only make money when they are full. This is the reason the Super C ships were built, because they can run economically all year around.

The Super C class ships are really not new designs at all but are reworks of the C Class ships, Queens of Coquitlam, Cowichan, Surrey, Oak Bay and Alberni. The new ships are, however, designed to work in Active Pass, which the old C vessels were not well suited for due to their double end designs. This lack of maneuverability let to the Queen of Alberi grounding in 1979.

The Harcourt government was always strapped for cash and put all new building on hold. The Fastcats were politically motivated and were not a success.

Budd

[PERSONAL SWIPE AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Draw your own conclusions - but I suspect you've got him pretty much for what he is.

Budd Campbell...

The old Socred regime announced the Spirit Class program circa 1989/90, which incorporated the Pacific Buffet.

The latter Spirit-class ship was placed on hold when the Harcourt government came to power and was subsequently approved for construction/completion. Still remember the Spirit-class superstructure assembly at the now defunct Vito Shipyards along River Road in Delta.

White Spot was incorporated into a few ships circa 1998/99 (?) but it was not until much later that all vessels on the main routes had White Spot, the Bread Garden, etc. as part of food services.

As for the substandard (1959?) Tsawwasssen ferry terminal, passengers had to endure long walks along overhead enclosed walkways to their point of arrival/departure.

Certainly the new Tsawwassen terminal and quay buildings provide a much better level of customer service in terms of both their location/and offerings.

And that's what I was getting at... a much better level of customer service and focus on fleet/terminal improvements under the ferry authority than under the previous control of government under various political stripes.

YVR is another example of that similar operating structure and look at the success that it has realized as a result, in terms of terminal improvements and customer satisfaction over the years.

Living on an Island

Living on an Island has its challenges.

Yes the fares are going but so is the cost of everything else. Has the service gone down , not really except the 4 hr line ups in the summer because of a rush of eco-tourists racing to and from the islands.

I'm fed up subsidising the tourist industry flooding our ferries every year with traffic. I've no problem paying the real cost of taking the ferry, but I don't need gold plated service or fancy banners at the terminal telling me where I am.

The fatcats were a miserable mistake. built to impress the tourists and create a few bloated training jobs for some union workers. Time for a bridge.

one thing I don't get

Why the hell does BC Ferries advertize at Canucks games? They have a monopoly for crying out loud, what a waste of money.
Just like whenever you are pulling into the dock and the Captain thanks you for sailing with BC Ferries. Like we had a choice?

Luke

I'm a customer and the service sucks...it was better, far far better, before Davie hahn and Gordie campbell took over...I expect to see it continue to deteriorate as ridership goes down.

Oxymoron

Certainly is an oxymoron, isn't it? Added to that, they drive gas gulping SUVs.

title of article is apt

Whether the BC Ferries "Corp."se makes money or not, it is still leaking money: the ferries corporation is funded primariy by the residents of BC. The exorbinant cost to ride is draining money out of the pockets of BC citizens.

JStog:

Well, JStog, I lived on an island off the island for 10 years. The summer before last, I brought my family back to the island as a tourist and to visit old friends I'd left behind. Silly me, I put our environmentally friendly canoe (which I bought years ago on the island) on the truck, making the vehicle over-height. The tiny eco-friendly camping trailer that I pulled behind made us over-sized. The ferries that took me had lots of extra room in the overheight bays. Normally, the trailer just sits up beside the lake where I live. It is self-contained, and the land around where I park it returns to nature when I pull it out in the fall. It has no bed-bugs and we don't have to eat whatever they currently call food at restaurants one finds at motels and resorts. The trip was pleasant enough, though traffic between Sidney and Tahsis was crazy. I normally drive 7000 KM per year. This little bit of extra fuel I was spending seemed like it would be worth it to let my kids know what the West Coast is all about. Vancouver Island had changed: with its miles of malls and chain stores, it often felt like I was in the USA.

I think you had better get happy with the eco-tourists as they are one of the few things left actually bringing in more capital than they replace. The old-growth forests have been raped and sold off as whole logs to companies Down South. The logging companies are laying-off and pulling up stakes. Of course, much of the laying-off doesn't look like laying-off as the big logging companies just don't offer new contracts to their self-employed subcontractors (who have no benefits). The healthy wild salmon that you used to catch and put in your freezer are being killed off by net-penned madness, beetle kills in The Interior, and extended periods of drought. The West Coast will be finished off by the Port of Vancouver and other Pacific Gateway expansion and oil drilling to the North. You are right, you may as well have a bridge; and won't it look grand coming down if the overdue earthquake finally hits?

free ferries

I have never understood why inland ferries continue to be free. What makes living in Nelson any different than living in Victoria, as far as travel across water is concerned?

Luke and happy

You guys need to talk to each other.

YVR has no competition. They can do whatever they want, what are you gonna do? If you happen to be going to a Westjet destination you can fly out of Abbottsford and save some dollars, which everyone would do if they could. Which just goes to show the money spent by YVR is a waste and is no different than a waste of tax dollars.

Inland Ferries

The Inland Ferries are run by the Ministry of Highways. For some rather strange reason the inland routes are considered part of the road system, while the coastal ferries are not. The Kootenay Lake ferry is spectacular by the way.

YVR does have competition called Seatac. I often fly from Seatac because the fares from there are often much lower. If you have the extra time, it is worth it. I might add that YVR is in fact a much better facility than Seatac.

Further, there are no tax dollars spent at YVR. All revenues are from landing fees, passenger fees and concession rents. Even the air traffic control is financed by passengers, who pay for it with an extra ticket fee. I have absolutely no problem with this since the people who actually use the airport should be the ones paying for it.

City Person

That's like saying Washington Ferries provides competition for BC Ferries.

Seattle is too far away to compete with YVR.

Since you are either intent on erecting a strawman or you didn't bother to read what I said, here it is again. Please note the way the sentence is constructed. I've bolded the relevant words for easy recognition.

What is meant by that statement is that the people are still paying for it and regardless of the existence of a country to our south called the USA, YVR essentially has a monopoly. This means people can either pay the airport improvement fee and the fees included in their ticket or they can go home.

They're not paying for what they want, they're paying for what the airport wants. There is a distinction. I believe people would be happier with a cheaper no-frills airport.

Too Far?

Seatac is three hours by bus or less than an hour by train. I use it all the time because I can save a lot of money on international flights. Further, the connections are often better out of Seatac which usually makes up any time lost getting there.

For, for a $10 departure tax, I would rather have good facilities. Many airports around the world now have transit hotels and shower facilities. I am happy to use them on long hauls, you feel much more refreshed upon arrival.

Finally, practically every airport in the world has a terminal use fee and it is always more than $10. Osaka, for example, is $30 on top of the $30 train ticket to get there.

City Person

Plus border lineup, plus the cost of getting there. Its not like its free and next door to YVR. Saying Seattle is an alternative is a real stretch.

Which is what it comes down to. You would rather pay extra. Many wouldn't, but they don't have a choice.

Rather than insisting on arguing for the sake of arguing and calling white, black, etc (a la realisticman), why not just admit people have issues with paying the high cost of YVR and BC Ferries?

Border

The cost of getting to Seatac on Amtrak is $56 round trip. It takes three hours to downtown and the airport is $1.50 and 25 min via city bus. There is no time clearing the border at all, all immigration is pre-screened an Grand Central Station in Vancouver. All you need is your passport. All your data is already in the system when you book at Amtrak.

It really depends on how much you save getting there. I am going to South East Asia this week on business. My ticket going from Seatac is $600 cheaper than going from YVR and the connection better so I don't actually lose any time.

Well, if $10 is an issue to be using YVR, perhaps you can't afford to be traveling.

Frank: Quote:Seattle is too

Frank:

While I have never personally used Sea-Tac, there is some leakage from the Lower Mainland market to that facility.

In fact, in 2007, I know of three separate parties that utilized Sea-Tac as the launch point to fly elsewhere within the U.S.

Two travelled to Sea-Tac by Greyhound, one by vehicle.

The reason? A combination of cheaper airfare and better last minute booking options.

On that same note, some air

On that same note, some air travellers out of Victoria travel via BC Ferries to YVR instead of utilizing Victoria International Airport.

Some Lower Mainland residents use Bellingham airport for short haul flights, and some residents of Whatcom county utilize YVR as witnessed by the many Washington plates I've seen at YVR.

And then, of course, some Lower Mainlanders utilze Abbotsford International.

City Person

Spoken like a Bourbon. Now that you've made it clear you're not interested in what the average joe has to pay I see no reason for you to continue to involve yourself in a discussion about exactly that.

I will let you know the next time we are discussing the cost of hiring good servants.

Luke

Exactly, both Skywalker and I mentioned Abbotsford too.

However, Abbotsford does not have the same degree of travel options that Richmond does. It is certainly an option for some trips.

The point is, whether it be BC Ferries or YVR, they should be looking at providing travel options to the public as their #1 priority. People should not have to pay for frills when for most of them, other options don't exist.

$10 on $500?

Frank, on a several hundred dollar fare, $10 is a pittance. It is less than the walk on fare for BC Ferries from Vancouver to Victoria. It is less than lunch at McDonald's for two people.

Would you prefer the airport be paid for out of federal government general revenue so that people that never use it actually get to pay for it, or would you rather people using YVR pay?

Really? I made it very clear that I am very concerned what the "average joe" pays. That is why I often fly from Seatac on internation flights. It save a lot of money in many cases

Frank: Quote:The point is,

Frank:

My point was that YVR, under the governance structure of an airport authority, has improved itsef to the point of being rated #1 in North America from the flying public's perspective.

Sometimes people have to wait at airports for a long period of time to catch flights, layovers, etc. And the ambience and food and other service options at YVR is bar none.

Additionally, YVR has an "AA" credit rating by Standard & Poors, along with only four other world airports.

Now BC Ferries. Remember that old dingy Tsawwassen terminal? People sometimes have to wait hours to catch a ferry and the ambience was lacklustre.

A combination of the new terminal as well as the Tsawwassen Quay market certainly makes the waiting traveller have a better and enjoyable travelling experience. And that's what it's all about right?

http://www.tsawwassenquay.com/

City Person

We are going in circles on this. The point is not that its not a major factor, the point is that its not necessary at all. People should not have to pay for frills if they don't want to.

Taking a plane is sometimes part of a job, many just want to get their ticket as cheap as possible and take their flight. They don't want to gaze at the architecture or the native art or watch jugglers perform.

If that stuff is important to BC Ferries and YVR then make it an option for those so inclined. But don't make it part of the base fare.

Because every little bit added to that fare will hurt somebody. That is after all what Mr Campbell believed when he put a new carbon tax on gas. He didn't think it would stop us all from driving but he figures it might hurt someone out there enough to do so.

Airport improvement fees and extra costs passed on by airlines do hurt people, not you perhaps, but saying they don't hurt anybody is simply not true.

Luke

No it isn't. See my post to City Person above.

Maybe you're a worker that lives in Powell River but works on Texada Island and having to pay those additional fare hikes over the past few years has hurt you.

That guy is not a tourist, the ferries are part of his transportation system, he probably doesn't care about his "travel experience", he simply wants to be moved from one point to another.

And that should be BC Ferries job, not to provide a better "experience" for people who don't want to pay for it but still need to use the service.

I spent hours on an enjoyable travelling experience

A combination of the new terminal as well as the Tsawwassen Quay market certainly makes the waiting traveller have a better and enjoyable travelling experience. And that's what it's all about right?

I'm going to go out on a a limb here and say that from a traveller's perpsective... Maybe the money would be better spent finding ways to NOT make people wait for hours, instead of making it semi-tolerable?

Frank: Quote:That guy is

Frank:

I understand your point... but if we want lower fares then we should not be upgrading/ building new terminal facilities and buying new ships.

Just keep the old ships (which are likely debt free) and perhaps buy some cheaper, older ships to increase capacity. No (or a minor) increase in debt load and no relative additional costs to the system aside from wages/salaries.

One could make the same argument about BC Transit. We should have just continued to operate the old Brill buses from the 1950's and bought cheaper, older second-hand buses from around the world.

That way, the increase in debt load would have been marginal and fares would have been kept much lower.

There are always to sides to a coin. :)

Luke

Exactly, I'm not saying no capital costs. But for decades we built good ships that did a good job for a reasonable price.

In my opinion we've gone away from that and are instead constantly chasing the "new and improved and lemony-fresh" solution for everything in spite of the debt and rising costs we incur.

Waiting for the Godot Ferry

And a very fine limb that is, Stump...but with way too much intelligent logic embedded in it for City Person to ever understand.

"The ambience of waiting" for a ferry, City Person?... lol....now that's funny stuff.

Losing Money & Passengers?

Is BC Ferries losing passengers?

Oh that explains why BC Ferries Corp. bought advertising at GM Place!!!!!!!

Perhaps I should start charging a surcharge when I pay my taxes?!

Soon we will be marooned on Vancouver Island!

BC Ferries should not be

BC Ferries should not be advertising, Monopolies do not need to advertise.

According to Global BC the ferries are not all that clean anyway ......

Quote:People should not have

Your argument does not make sense, Frank, because before the airport authority took over at YVR, all Canadians paid for the running of the airport. Now only people actually using the airport pay.

And those "frills" actually keep costs down at the airport. The facility is much better than it used to be and being a million + mile flyer, I think I have seen a few airports.

Lynn, I didn't make that comment. I don't wait for ferries. I walk on and rent a car on the other side.

BC ferries Does not need to advertise... I know where they are

>SharingIsGood<

Tourism is fine its a seasonal thing and puts money in the pockets of a micro few in the community.
I've used the ferry as regular transportation for 3 decades now.

Our local ferry started as a department of highways vessel. No fancy parking lots, no waiting rooms, no fancy flags and logos. The basic ferry worked fine, subsidised as a Highways extention.

Now its the BC Ferry Corp, where everythings done to impress tourists. Us regular users just want to get from point a to b. I don't want to pay increasing fares just to add opulence to impress eco-tourists.

I'll gladly take a bridge to the islands any day. The lions gate bridge is still standing last i looked. Earthquakes are an extremely rare risk.

I'd prefer a bridge

-SharingIsGood-

Tourism is fine its a seasonal thing and puts money in the pockets of a micro few in the community.
I've used the ferry as regular transportation for 3 decades now.

Our local ferry started as a department of highways vessel. No fancy parking lots, no waiting rooms, no fancy flags and logos. The basic ferry worked fine, subsidised as a Highways extention.

Now its the BC Ferry corp, where everythings done to impress tourists. Us regular users just want to get from point A to B. I don't want to pay increasing fares just to add opulence to impress eco-tourism.

I'll gladly take a bridge to the island any day. The lions gate bridge is still standing last I looked. Earthquakes are an extremely rare risk.

City Person

Have you read Monbiot's Heat?

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/11/07/heat/

Perhaps you should. Anyone doing all that air travel clearly knows lots about airports.

Maybe you should learn what that kind of lifestyle is doing to the planet. We should be shutting down airports and turning the airplanes into flower pots before it's too late.

As for the nonsense about YVR as a showcase, baloney. Tell Robert Dziekanski and his mother - it's no showcase, it's just a people handling facility with a few pieces of public art - nothing at all to be proud of - just keep movin' along.

Thanks, GWest

Thank you for the link. I will be sure to have a look at it when I get a free moment.

Geeeeeee West... I've just

Geeeeeee West... I've just gotta nominate your following comment for "top prize" in this whole thread! ;)

CITY PERSON

The Spirit Boats were finished in 1993 and 1994 and were in fact commissioned by the Vander Zalm government. They are larger than the Super C class ships but are in fact too large to be profitable all year around. They only make money when they are full.

So what if the vessels were originally ordered by Vander Zalm. They were completed and brought into service in the 1990s, which is what I said. Your comment that the Harcourt Govt was always strapped for cash means what? That the Socreds left a huge deficit? Or that Paul Martin was downloading the federal deficit? Or both? Do you really think people are gullible enough to fall for your brand of threadbare propaganda?

You state that the Spirit class boats only make money when the run full. What capacity do you have in mind? 60%? 70%? 80%? More than 80%? Is there some BC Ferries document you can refer us to which explains the oprating costs of these and other boats as a function of the load carried, and need I point out that there are two load factors involved, passengers and cars, and when there are lots of tour buses the first limit will be reached more quickly.

Frankly, I would be surprised if the Spirit or any other class of boat in the fleet "lost money" on an operating basis with any vehicle/passenger load over 50%.

NO LUKE. THE BUILDING JUST TORN DOWN

As for the substandard (1959?) Tsawwasssen ferry terminal, passengers had to endure long walks along overhead enclosed walkways to their point of arrival/departure.

As you well know, Luke, a building of recent vintage, not more than 15 years old, was torn down to make way for President Hahn's new galleria of private operators.

Has any investigative reporter dug into the bidding arrangements for the stalls in that new building? I wonder if they might turn up a kind of Sponsorship angle?

IDIOTIC STATEMENTS

I'll gladly take a bridge to the island any day. The lions gate bridge is still standing last I looked. Earthquakes are an extremely rare risk.

It's the prevalence of idiotic statements like this that make BC politics such a whacko game.

Buses and Planes

Luke Skywalker said:

That way, the increase in debt load would have been marginal and fares would have been kept much lower.

As long as they rip the seats out of those old buses. If there's one thing I love about the new ones, it's the way you no longer have to go through the pesky process of sitting down, putting your bag somewhere and then having to just get back up again when you arrive at your stop.

Keeping old buses on the road however would have meant more maintenance. Wouldn't want wages staying in the province. Much better to send them to Winterpeg to their manufacturing workers.

A truly integrated transportation system might skip the showcase ferry terminals and actually put more buses on the road, letting environmentally friendly walk-on travellers from downtown to Tsawwassen or Horseshoe Bay forego trip-planning exercises that require spreadsheets, supercomputers and Rommel-esque strategy sessions (little known fact - the Wehrmacht never took Stalingrad before the onset of winter because they sub-contracted troop transport to Coast Mountain) to avoid half-hour waits at the two or three transfers necessary to get from a major city to a major outlying destinations.

Despite your derision Skywalker, it's a prescient stance. We'd be better off encouraging people to ride the much more ecologically sound rails for which we could charge private passenger carriers a profitable rate for access, rather than letting them pollute the skyways for free.

Further, airports and airplanes are rapidly becoming obsolete as any speed advantage gets lost to post 9/11 paranoia.

Luke Skywalker

Luke Skywalker said,Geeeeeee West... I've just gotta nominate your following comment for "top prize" in this whole thread!

Could you elaborate, as to what your alluding to by that comment?

Why don't you read Monbiot, Luke

Before you go 'off' like that - there's far too much air travel - especially completely unnecessary business trips and convention junkets. Shut 'em down now before it IS too late. Eliot Spitzer should have stayed home too I'd say

And tell your boss gordo to either stay in Vancouver or stay in Maui - I could care less where - just do something really green for a change and quit bouncing back and forth - it makes him look like an even bigger hypocrite.

I appreciate the attention - advertising helps and people slowly change their Neanderthal ideas...well, most of them do.

Right on Budd.

"That the Socreds left a huge deficit? Or that Paul Martin was downloading the federal deficit? Or both?"

It was both. The operating deficit was $2.4 billion in the last year of Socreds and the federal offloading was also in the billions over the 90's. The Spirit Class was built in BC.

Lions Gate bridge received a major upgrade in the late 90's and was almost completed by the time the Liberals came to power.

Now let's see what other irrelevant statistics Luke Kevin Falcon can come up for red herrings.

The Liberal method has always been to drive something into the ground and then say that it needs to be private to run better. They almost succeeded with ICBC except for a reasonable person at the helm who resisted. They are still working on BC Hydro and soon we will be paying rates equal to other jurisdictions and the push will be on to give BC Hydro to friends in high places with us being promised lower rates.

THe Fast Ferries are still around and if BC Ferries goes private you can bet you will see them again. They won't be as fast but they will still be new.

your wrong Frank

YVR certainly does have competition, you just have to expand your thinking. They compete with not only YXX and SEA which are in YVR's immediate catchment area, but also SFO and LAX for international business. YVR's advantage is geographical, it's the closest North American airport to Asia (Anchorage doesn't count)
They compete to attract the Airlines, not the passengers. Build it and they will come.
YVR was worse than the old Terminal St bus station when the feds ran it and the taxpayers paid for it.
It is a spectacular success now and a major economic generator for the entire province. bigger than the Port of Vancouver. And it pays its own way.

happy

Okay happy, and you think the ferry to Catalina Island competes with BC Ferries. I'm marking you down as happy with everything.

City Person

You're almost home City Person, just a few more baby-steps to go. Now make the connection that only people who want to stand around staring at the frills should have to pay the Airport Improvement Fee. Notice how they didn't call it a "Keep the Airport from falling apart" fee?

Because the airport is a necessity for many, just as the ferries are. It shouldn't be a place to build a palace and charge the average joe to use it because he has no alternative.

And the point is? In short, who cares? How much you travel means nothing to the economics of an airport in BC.

Sell those brushes Elsewhere!

fullerbrushman sez:

Well the first reason is because at the time that WAC Bennett was flooding much of our best land and evicting farmers he promised that the ferries would be free forever as somewhat of a consolation prize. Of course politicians' promises aren't worth the air they resonate in anymore with the current crop ("I will not sell BC Rail").

Not all but many of the inland ferries in the Kootenays weren't even necessary before the dams or much cheaper and simpler vessels sufficed. The Glade Ferry crossing was serviced by a cable/friction current driven ferry operated by the locals at virtually no cost. The Brilliant Dam made the crossing longer, the water deeper and the current non-existent. Meanwhile the locals don't participate in the profits the Brilliant Dam helps create. Before the Hugh Keenyside a 4 X 4 with high clearance was almost enough to cross at Needles (Arrow Lakes).

I'm sure that if they slapped fares on the Shelter Bay run the first to bitch would be the Chip Hauling companies - in fact it would almost be worth it just for that to the rest of us. Ask Blair Suffredine, if you can find him, about how much he enjoyed messing with peoples access to jobs, medical services and schools by trying to reduce service. When firemen and police can't work night shift without getting a second residence or being away from home all week, guys like Blair go back to lawyering.

We in the hurtland have contributed MUCH, MUCH more to the drones on the coast than vis-a-versa during the history of this province. You can cease and desist with the patronizing attitude anytime!

Well Frank

I tried to help you think outside the old box but I see thats a wasted effort. I gave you a knowledgeable explanation of how YVR competes on a global scale and you come back with pathetic sarcasm about the Catalina ferry. Perhaps we should dumb down the conversation

happy

Sorry hap, but driving to LA in order to avoid YVR is not an example of YVR having competition.

You've only posted 2 comments, I'm not sure how much you feel your 1st comment raised the debate but I think you're giving yourself too much credit.

Give it up Frank

You've missed it completely. You don't have to drive to LAX to catch the flight because that flight leaves from YVR now, as opposed to the "old" days when YVR was a sleepy, domestic market oriented facility that didn't have the international access that it does now, due entirely to updated facilities and outward looking management, not possible when Ottawa ran the show.

Yes, I keep my comments to a minumum on subjects I feel I know something about. Such as the Transportation industry.
Sarcastic comments on subjects you obviously aren't knowledgeable on is considerd trolling I thought.

btw Happy

I hope you noticed the little slap on the writst Southwest got...would you like to revisit our little discussion from a while back about aircraft maintenance standards.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if Southwest's Canadian protege got slapped with a similar order one of these days.

Time to shut dowm all but absolutely essential air travel - for the good of the environment and the long-term health of the economy.

Travelling in the states isn't all that much fun anymore happy - or maybe you haven't noticed. Next time you're down there you'll maybe get pulled aside for a random search - have fun when they pat you down.

Drive?

Umm, Frank, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that you can perhaps, maybe, fly to LAX from Vancouver. Or from Seattle or Bellingham, too.

Then go for it

But remember c/p you can't fly in the US without your passport and by the time you get to Seattle and back (flying, driving, taking the ferry) and making all the necessary connections you won't have saved a penny and you'll have wasted a lot of valuable time.

But I suppose a world traveller like you doesn't care about that either.

Let's increase the cost of flying as much as possible and start charging what's necessary to get people out of planes as well as cars - wouldn't that be what our green premier would want us to do?

billy goats gruff

Frank I see you`ve got your usual trolling harpies trying to outsmart ya LOL and making themselves look foolish.

I`d weigh in but I know you can handle it..`specially with G. as your wingman..I don`t fly so I`m not much up on YVR and stuff..at least I don`t fly in airplanes...or helicopters..a blimp I might try...knew a guy nicknamed "Blimp" growing up..his bike for delivering papers had baloon or "Blimp" tires.
Nobody called him Blimp to his face ..he was pretty heavyset and could really chuck the knuckles. I was hitchhiking once years later ..he picked me up in his black Continental.. when I gratefully got into the car I said" Thanks Alot BLIMP and immediately realized my faux pas . I kept watching Larry the whole ride but he was ok. Phew..pretty tense ride.

Thanks again, GWest

Thanks for reminding me about the passport regulations GWest. Certainly, you have given me some real food for thought for my next trip.

Do I need a passport to enter any other countries or is the USA the only one?

Thanks again.

OK west

Lets start with this then:

"Wouldn't surprise me a bit if Southwest's Canadian protege got slapped with a similar order one of these days."

I hope you're not referring to Westjet skidding off the taxiway in YOW. Because a pilot taxiing too fast in a blizzard does not shoddy aircraft maintenance make. Or are you hinting at something else?

Oh and thanks for pointing out that travelling through the US can be an unpleasant experience nowadays. I've noticed allright. One big reason why YVR is increasingly the airport of choice for travellers to Asia. One last comment on that subject. You don't have to travel to the US to get patted down for a security search. Any YVR employee is subject to random searches. It ain't no big deal

Dr

Your entire comment was trolling at its best - or worst.

No Hap

This is what I'm talkin' about:

The groundings come after the Federal Aviation Administration last week proposed a record $10.2 million fine against the airline, charging it missed deadlines to inspect planes for structural flaws during 2006 and 2007.

Southwest normally operates 3,400 scheduled flights each day and only uses Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 aircraft. It ended 2007 with a fleet of 520 737s.

Shares of Southwest fell 7.3 percent to close at $11.49 on the New York Stock Exchange. Shares of U.S. airlines were broadly lower on high fuel prices and a report cutting ratings on several airlines from JP Morgan analyst Jamie Baker.

Southwest said in a statement that it discovered "an ambiguity" in maintenance records on 44 planes and decided to "take a conservative approach" and take them out of service for reinspection.

Southwest did not disclose the specific problem but the FAA said it was related to an agency inspection requirement for window areas on 737-300 and 737-500 aircraft. The FAA said Southwest grounded the planes until it could verify that it correctly followed instructions for the inspections.

[From a Reuters story - datelined Washington, today].

Buckee spends so much time goin' on about what a great model southwest is - wouldn't surprise me a bit if w/j was a little sloppy too...as a matter of fact I think there was a grounding of some w/j planes a few years ago over a maintenance issue as well.

Why not Political Office, GWest?

GWest, I want to send you my most high appreciation for the truly excellent insights you post here on such a regular basis. So many things that I would have never considered. What an enlightenment!

That aside, I truly and humbly recommend that you run for political office and implement your sagely knowledge and save all of us before it is too late. Gregor Robertson's riding is coming up for nomination in the next provincial election. Have you considered putting the old hat in the ring? With such intelligence, I am sure you could have any cabinet post you chose. I doubt anyone would even run against you. Except the Communist Party. They always run.

Perhaps minister of the Environment. Then you could ban all flying and close YVR down for the betterment of us all.

Please, consider this before it is too late for the rest of us. I for one, crave your leadership and sagely advice.

Thanks again for everything. Hope to see you in Victoria!

happy

Hap, this means what? What is it in reference to? Were you able to follow the conversation up to this point? I will happily help you with anything you missed because you've obviously missed a lot.

Here's a quick summary, some people think raising rates on BC ferries is great because its like raising them on flights out of YVR, we'll get lots of great architecture to look at while waiting for our flight or sailing.

That's it in a nutshell. I think that's ridiculous. BC Ferries and YVR should not be in the business of providing eye-candy for tourists, they should realize they're in the people moving business and stick to that.

I also believe they should not take advantage of their monopoly and instead keep their rates as cheap as possible.

LAX has nothing to do with this discussion. Sorry to break it to you if its your favourite airport.

City Person

Great, so people can fly out of YVR to another airport in order to avoid YVR. That apparently is what's called competition in your world. Excellent, glad to hear it.

Meanwhile, in the world with the blue sky that doesn't come close to qualifying. Just to clarify since they'll obviously be mentioned any moment now, the existence of airports in Calgary, Winnipeg or Toronto also do not count as competition to YVR any more than the Cataline Ferry that happy is so upset about.

Thanks for coming out.

mais oui west

The WJ incident came more than a "few" years ago west. When they were getting the company off the ground they didn't have their Company Maintenence Policy Manual submitted to Transport Canada in time and they were grounded until that was fufilled. In other words a paperwork issue. At no time was there any suggestions of poor maintenence, they were being maintained under the Boeing generic shedule at the time.

Unless you know something about this I don't? Please be specific

Carbon tax

Is this why you guys are waving the flag over the carbon tax? Because raising the cost of everything possible is considered a great achievement?

Airport fees, ferry rate increases, carbon taxes, toll bridges, toll highways... is there anything under the sun you guys would be willing to allow the average guy not to have to pay extra for if he actually wants to use it?

Air perhaps? Or will there soon be a widely hailed "oxygen improvement" fee on that too?

Connections

Actually, Frank, many long haul flights such as Singapore depart from YVR and connect through San Francisco or Los Angeles.

Have you been to Singapore? Excellent food. Take the train up to KL and then to Thailand. You'll cross the bridge over the River Kwai. Didn't see Alec Guinness, though .

City Person

And grain from Saskatchewan always gets shipped out of ports not actually in Saskatchewan. I know that's not relevant, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Oh I remember all about it Hap

I happened to be flying with W/J that week. Whether it was a maintenance issue or a p/w issue was somewhat up in the air wasn't it?

My recollection was that the maintenance couldn't be proved because the paperwork hadn't been done.

By the way, after reading that transport Canada report (and listening to the press conference) on the Queen of the North sinking I don't think I have a very high opinion of THEIR professionalism either.

What a self-serving, repetitious excuse for saying absolutely nothing. How many times did she say 'we want to ensure all Canadians reach harbour safely'?

Do they think we're all stupid children?

Buckee always has a lot of similarly self-serving excuses - a lot like the ones he used before he decided to plead out and pay off Air Canada for corporate espionage.

Like a lot of Alberta hotshots, buckee always impressed me as being a lot more about the sizzle than the steak - as long as I can get the damn TV in front of me to stay shut off while I'm flying I don't mind using them. But I wish they’d kept the peanuts – I dislike the little bags of chicken feed.

In truth though, Air Canada is a much improved airline of late - where I live they're a much more practical option than w/j

I never fly unless I absolutely have to - I recommend the same approach to everyone.

Frank: Quote:Airport fees,

Frank:

1. Regarding the carbon tax I agree with ya. Gas prices have increased, what 30 cents plus, over the past few years? What's an extra 2.5 cents gonna do to curtail driving habits?

2. $10 Airport Improvement Fee... With YVR what it is today, I personally don't have a problem with it;

3. Ferry Rate Increases... Frankly I'm not happy with it either... but I still favour the quasi-YVR management structure;

4. Highway tolls/ bridge tolls... From my perspective it's the lesser of two evils... I'd rather have the toll and have the infrastructure constructed than wait for years with nothing getting done;

Remember that the Lions Gate Bridge, the Second Narrows Bridge, the Oak St. Bridge, the George Massey Tunnel, and the Queensborough Bridge all had tolls at one time?

The only highway toll currently in place is the Coquihalla toll implemented in 1986. Since then, governments of three political stripes have all kept it in place.

It should have been removed years ago based upon the premise that the toll was only associated with the "accelerated costs" involved with the highway project.

how could bc ferries not be

how could bc ferries not be leaking money with a union like theirs? what a scathing report. barrier doors not closed, stoned crew, and a love affair at the helm. to top it all off the union's prez tries to spin this into a governmental problem. what a beauty!

talking-very-slowly

OK Frank, I'll try.

"Hap, this means what? What is it in reference to? Were you able to follow the conversation up to this point?"

Its in reference to your statement:

"Sorry hap, but driving to LA in order to avoid YVR is not an example of YVR having competition."

Who said anything about driving to LAX? Show me where I said that. My POINT, hard as it is for some to understand, is that YVR, with updated modern facilities is a magnet for AIRLINES to WANT to do business here. People don't HAVE to travel to other countries airports to make their connections. I take it you don't do a lot of air travel

Dr Evil

Thanks Bob!

Damn Canucks didn't show up tonight, so I came back here :-)

happy

When read in the context of a discussion about the lack of people's options when not wanting to pay the "architecture tax" at YVR it is IMPLIED that they will not "fly" to another airport.

And my point, hard as it is for people to understand, is that that is irrelevant.

They SHOULD be able to use their own airport when they want to fly somewhere without having to pay an "eye-candy" tax when there is no real alternative airport.

Luke

Excellent

Damn, of course you know this means a voodoo doll with your name on it will be specially prepared for me.

Excellent

Qualifier duly noted

west

You're close west but still a bit off. The maintenance work that had been performed could be proved, the problem was that the maintenance schedule that WJ was implementing hadn't been approved by TC yet. Regulations.

You lost me, who the hells Buckee?

And I agree on the QOTN report, what a crock. The only way to get the truth is a Public Inquiry, or it'll come out in court eventually when the participants are sued. Think OJ

Frank

Billions have been, and are being spent to EXPAND YVR Frank. It ain't for plants and artwork. When the local Authority took over, and I'm just using numbers off the top of my head so don't nitpick if I'm off a little, the old terminal built by Ottawa was intended for about 5 million travellers a year. At that point it was handling over twice that number. This is why major Airlines avoided the place like the plague. Today I believe its handling around 17 mil and construction to expand goes on unabated to increase capacity.

Its not your money Frank. Nor Ottawa's or Victoria's. It's obvious you don't use the airport at all so what's the problem? If people want to spend their money this way thats their choice to make.

happy

Actually, part of it is but that's irrelevant too.

People don't have the choice happy. What is their choice that you think they have? Not fly?

Not use the ferry?

Not use everything you want to put a fee on?

You need to brush up on what the word "choice" means. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Oh please...

Do you take BC Ferries regularly? If not, why are you on this thread?

Are you unhappy with the mainstream media happy? If not, why do you read alternative media?

I won't even ask if you're capable of programming a browser in spite of your using one.

Methinks you and City Person need to understand that in a discussion such as this one it only makes your arguments look weak when you try to paint yourselves as being above the hoi poloi while posting behind anonymous handles.

If you can put together a coherent, relevant argument you'll get far more respect from me than you will if you continue to indulge in playground behaviour.

Because you seem to be one step away from declaring your dad is bigger than mine.

Frank said:

"People don't have the choice happy. What is their choice that you think they have? Not fly?"

Well, thats a debateable statement, but assuming your point of view, then if people HAVE to fly then I guess YVR's doing a hell of a job providing a modern facility that attracts all the worlds premier Airlines so that folks don't have to travel through a foreign countries airport anymore (SFO, LAX) to get to their destination. You sort of agreed with that whern you saud this:

"They SHOULD be able to use their own airport when they want to fly somewhere without having to pay an "eye-candy" tax when there is no real alternative airport."

And thats exactly the way it is now thanks to your "eye candy tax" which has been used 100% to turn YVR into the success it is today. Before, when the airport was your typical government run operation you COULDN'T fly anywhere you pleased simply because many global Airlines bypassed YVR for the reasons I've given. I'm afraid in this situation Ottawa could not "order" other countries Airlines to service YVR.

And really Frank, do you even know how much the AIF is? Nav Canada has a fee on your Airline ticket too, shall we do away with that?

silly arguments

People say the same thing about SUV drivers. Ignoring of course, that someone, somewhere gets shortchanged when one takes more than their share.

yes I do

I'm a ferry dependant commuter Frank, use them 20-30 times a year. Sunshine Coast. How often do you?

Why am I here on the Tyee? I thought it was a free world, the truth is I'm working a 12 hour night shift and this is the only time (at work) I visit the Tyee. Nice folks.

I kinda thought I was sticking to the facts about airports. Where do I come off as being better than anybody? If I did I can assure you it was unintentional

happy

Free world? Then why the constant concern over how often I fly etc??

Really, then why the questions about my life?

YVR is the only game in town. Are you in favour of adding a "facility improvement" fee to schools, roads, bridges, mail, hospitals etc? Or can people use the roads and so on in Seattle instead?

And thats exactly the way it is now thanks to your "eye candy tax"

Read my quote and yours? Notice how yours doesn't address mine?

I've put you down as in favour of more taxes and fees on everything.

rebound

This is getting ridiculously childish.

To clarify: I don't have a "constant" concern how often you fly. The answer to that was obvious right off the bat.

I don't have to be in favour of additional fees for hospitals, schools, etc. I already support public institutions through taxes. Everbody needs schools and hospitals. Are you going to argue everbody HAS to fly somewhere? Thats what you appear to be doing.

And am I in favour of more fees and taxes on everything? Why should I pay for "everything" I already said I support mandatory Public institutions through taxes. Whats the problem with user pay for optional services. Is that too "neocon" an attitude?

Now, not to pry into your life anymore but I answered a question of yours straight up and you didn't. Back to the subject at hand. How often do you take the ferry?

happy

And did that knowledge allow you to understand better why someone would be against rising ferry fees and additional airport fees or not? If it did, please explain how.

Because I didn't ask you and City Person how often you fly yet your arguments were not in any way hurt or helped by my lack of knowledge of your personal life.

First, yes, some people HAVE to fly.

Second, are you telling me airports and air travel have not ever received public dollars? I believe they have had their hand out on occasion contrary to the belief no tax dollars ever built and maintained airports.

Third, assuming you agree that the airline industry has been the recipient of government largesse... I see things like the AIF as being the equivalent of an elementary school saying your kid can't come to school unless you pay into the new "gymnasium fund"?

Because its no more "optional" than using the Port Mann bridge or the #1 is.

Why?

Your a confusing man Frank

Your a confusing man Frank but I admire your stamina.

OK then: please give me an example of someone who HAS to fly on a regular basis.(pilots don't count)

Airports and Airlines USED to get public funds. That was then. YVR and Air Canada are not crown corporations, nor have been for a long time. We've moved ahead. Some haven't.

Your comparison of the AIF with a school kid being refused gym is ridiculous.

The Port Mann and #1 are optional if you want to get picky. There are other routes.

Finally

Frank question: "Do you take BC Ferries regularly?
happy answer: "I'm a ferry dependant commuter Frank, use them 20-30 times a year. How often do you?
Frank answer: "Why"

You asked first, I answered. What are you afraid of? That the answer is you take the ferry as often as you use YVR possibly?

give me strength

You put yourself out as an 'expert' on Westjet and you don't know who Jim Buckee is?

I'm sorry, you really have been wasting my time - brush up on your corporate history for the last score of years, come back and we'll talk.

bye

YVR and success

Is it the eye-catching art and the the fee-financed upgrades that made YVR successful?

I wonder if it might just have something to do with this:

Air Carriers Cleared for Savings at YVR - Airport Authority Lowers Landing Fees for International Flights
Vancouver International Airport Authority is reducing landing fees charged to airlines operating international passenger and cargo flights into Vancouver International Airport (YVR). The new rates, effective January 1, 2007, bring international fees in line with domestic fees, which will remain the same, making YVR's international landing fees the lowest of all major Canadian airports.

So we have the interesting situation of Canadians paying extra airport improvement fees to reduce costs for international air carriers...sounds like a typical corporate welfare scam to me happy - let the passengers pay so the corporations can be more profitable - and here I thought folks flew into Vancouver for the view and the quality experience at YVR.

I also suspect there are some pretty nice subsidies offered to all airports through the Airport Capital Assistance Program and, although I'm no expert, I wonder if the rent YVR pays on the facility (also paid to the federal government) is market rent...maybe a little more competition from Abbotsford WOULD be a good idea, eh?

Troll Bait

[DEROGATORY COMMENT AIMED DIRECTLY AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

happy

An example? Me. As I posted on this board a few years ago, I had to fly out of YVR every 2nd Sunday for 21 months and return the following Saturday for work I did for a company south of the Mason-Dixon.

Is it really beyond belief for you to think that some people have to travel for work?

They were built and run with public money for most of their history. Its not beyond reason to ask why after the taxpayer built their infrastructure that they need to charge an additional fee to everyone using the airport on top of what is charged through the ticket price. The airlines do pay them to use the airport don't they?

Yes there are. But we don't charge people for using them. The airport, in spite of the lack of alternative airports, does.

Mine was rhetorical, you had already asked me how often I fly and I was simply pointing out you were being childish. I thought a similar question to you would make it clear how you were coming across without me spelling it out.

Again, if you need to know the particulars of my life, just let me know why its relevant first.

City Person

Coming from someone that has had a lot of trouble discussing the subject, that's pretty funny.

Perhaps the Tyee will soon post an article where it will be on-subject to discuss our trips abroad, what we saw and what we ate. Come to think of it, you may want to look at the Steve Burgess columns where that would be encouraged.

No Mas!

[EDITED. -MODERATOR.]

So maybe........

....Gordo & Co. are ruining the ferry service preparatory to bridge building?

We all "know" this government is "keen" on issuing contracts through P-3's for large construction projects to their friends and contributors. And it really doesn't matter what the intent of the construction is -- it is the construction itself that is the greater importance.

And what could be more costly than as many as three (yes, count 'em - 3!) bridges to good old V.I.?

a bridge/tunnel to the

a bridge/tunnel to the island should have been built 30 years ago. the islanders opposed it, and now they spend their time whining about the ferry service. how islandish of them.

west

I did as instucted and brushed up on my corporate history - which is NOT my background btw. I've told you before I deal in the technical side so when I said I didn't know who Buckee was I was just being honest.
And after googling a bit all I can see is he was boss of Talisman Energy for a number of years. Not one mention of Westjet, so what am I missing? Was he an original investor?
Apologies for wasting your time

Maybe not

"....Gordo & Co. are ruining the ferry service preparatory to bridge building?"

Right, astute observation. Thats why all those new ferries are being built

my mistake happy

I typed Buckee - I was thinking Beddoe - my bad.

Although they are both pretty much the same Alberta hotshot corporate types...Buckee got Talisman into hot water by catering to the warlords in the Sudan and Beddoe (and others) were central to this case - which they settled as follows:
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2006/05/29/westjet-aircansettle.html

Beddoe created Westjet as a Canadian clone of Southwest - given the fact that it appears very likely that Southwest maintenance and the FAA were colluding to permit unsafe airplanes to fly, I just thought it was an interesting codicil to our early discussion about how confident you were about maintenance protocols in Canada.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/031108dnbussouthwest.3b2e20a.html?npc

In the light of what we now know about BC Ferries safety protocols I'm not all that sanguine about them either.

Maybe I'm just less trusting than you are.

Again, sorry to send you on a wild goose chase.

accepted

I know who Beddoe is. And Don Bell too. He took the fall for Clive when WJ got caught in that little corporate indiscretion.
Interesting article on SW, I hadn't heard anything about that one. Brings to mind the Alaska Air crash of some years ago when a Supervisor was whipping maintenance tasks w/o them actually being done. A lot of innocent people paid for that criminal negligence.
And although no Industry is 100% safe west I stand by Canadian aircraft maintenance as some of the best in the world.

THERE WILL NEVER BE A BRIDGE, EVER.

RickW
....Gordo & Co. are ruining the ferry service preparatory to bridge building?

simonfraser
a bridge/tunnel to the island should have been built 30 years ago. ...

I simply have no idea where this material is coming from. MOTH has demonstrated conclusively that any such project is far beyond the realm of economic rationality. The tolls needed would be roughly four times that charged on the ferries. For such a project to finance itself, the BC and Canadian Govt's would have to pass special legislation forbidding any private operator from running a ferry service in competition with the bridge.

If someone want's a link, I will try to find one on the MOTH website, assuming it's still there. It was a few years ago.

happy

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a company with a ceo and other officers who had no compunction about lying in respect of larceny (cause that's what they did - steal and lie about it) wouldn't have a problem relative to telling untruths, or stretching the truth, in matters of safety.

On that, I'll go along with you and state that I HOPE you're right and I am wrong.

Sadly, as the Southwest case (and others) tend to prove, I think the record is on my side of the coin.

west

Just look at the statistics. They speak for themselves. Airplanes aren't falling out of the sky. Safer than ever. Thats not to excuse SW.

If it makes you feel any better there are fundamental differences between the Americans and us. A lot of American mechanics are ex military and as such their training is specific. They rely more on Supervisors down there to oversee the different job scopes. In the Canadian system mechanics are more broadly trained and given more personal responsibility in their License. This makes them more accountable for their own work and creates a very strong safety culture.

It's not perfect but show me a safer Industry.

Whaaaa....?

Sez Luke Skywalker

The two largest vessels in the fleet - the S-Superferries - were built in the 1990s - along with two Intermediate class (125 cars) for up-Island runs, a Century vessel (100 cars) for Gulf Island runs, and a couple of un-classed small ferries. Six vessels, not counting the fast-ferries, were built in the 1990s under that dastardly NDP administration (who were obviously only giving jobs to their union boys without regard to the public teat) and fourteen vessels in the 36-vessel fleet are under 25 years old.

The only "not much" that didn't happen in the ferries fleet was under Bill the Younger's administration and Gordo's rogue regime, at least until he got a big whack of oil'n'gas cash dumped in his lap in 2006. Every other administration, from WACky Bennett onward has considered the tarmac and marine highways as crucial to the movement of business and people in the province, and has acted accordingly.

Correction

zalm, the Spirit boats were finished in the 1990s. They were in fact commissioned by you namesake and my favourite loonie premier.

The initial planning for the Super C vessels started in 2003 when it was belatedly realised that the old "City Queens" were well past their prime.

City Person

Please see above - Budd Campbell already dealt with your cavil...which was previously brought up by Luke Skywalker.

This is getting like 'whack-a-mole' - just read back up the comment thread...and save yourself the time.

Zalm, you'll find, knows precisely what he's talking about....

interesting budd, but i find

interesting budd, but i find it hard to believe that it would not be economically feasible in the long term, considering that bc ferries will always lose money and that the commercial traffic would flow so much more freely 24/7. pat mcgeer did a comprehensive study back in the 60's and decided that it should be built immediately but the islanders wanted no part of it.

HERE IS THE AUTHORITATIVE MOTH LINK

Earlier I said that the Ministry of Transport and Highways had a good link that covers comprehensively the topic of a "fixed link" to Vancouver Island. This is the link:

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/Publications/reports_and_studies/fixed_link/fixed_link.htm

simonfraser states:

pat mcgeer did a comprehensive study back in the 60's and decided that it should be built immediately but the islanders wanted no part of it.

Dr Patrick L. McGeer as a BC Cabinet Minister commissioned the early 1980s studies listed on the link. There is nothing from Dr McGeer on this topic in the 1960s when he was with the old, pre-Gordon Campbell Liberal Party of BC. But McGeer as a "born-again" Socred developed an intense hostility to unions. He stated on many occasions that he saw the automated ALRT or Skytrain as a way to prevent strikes on public transit, and he saw a fixed link as a way to stop strikes on the ferry system.

My basic message is still the same. For any fixed link to be able to finance itself, now or at any time in the future, competition from a much cheaper ferry system would have to be forcibly excluded.

Fixed Link

Simon Fraser:

Imagine how juicy a target a fixed link would be to terrorists.

Incidentally "I find it hard to believe" is almost always shorthand for "Your facts can't influence my point-of-view".

As to the free flow of commercial traffic, one only has to watch the morning news to see how one multi-car accident can have a severe impact on traffic flow and consequently local economics.

It's pretty hard to argue with BC Ferries safety record (to date). I can only imagine how many lives would have been lost and how much money would have been wasted if the millions of person/crossings aboard a 'Queen' had instead been done on a bridge.

Further, a fixed link would be of little benefit to cyclists or pedestrians who use the ferries. They'd be trading an opportunity to eat, drink, and/or walk around for a cramped seat and crappy view on a bus in all likelihood. For tourists, while I don't believe the terminals represent much of an attraction, I think the ferry ride certainly does.

Finally, I think a fixed link would present a real challenge to shipping, which remains a vital part of the B.C. economy.

Budd and I almost always butt heads, but I agree with him completely on this one, and find your inability to accept his proffered data as verging on disrespectful and certainly counter-productive in terms of increasing your own understanding of the topic.

disrespectful?? you've lost

disrespectful?? you've lost me now stump, but i guess i shouldn't be surprised. i was never very good at following pretzel logic. perhaps you're just trying to be antagonistic. not interested. have a lovely day.

BICYCLING ON THE DIKES

Budd and I almost always butt heads, but I agree with him completely on this one, ...

Thanks for the assist, Stump. Next time I am riding my bike around the dikes here in the Ridge-Meadows area, I'll be thinking of those riding all the time, even in traffic.

Disrespect

It's disrespectful because not only do you not thank Budd for giving you the information to correct your erroneous impression, you question the information itself with no basis for doing so. What's the point of telling you anything if you're going to behave like a toddler and cover your ears when you get information you don't agree with?

ferry fares are the cause of the drop in my town

As a person who uses and depends upon a "minor" route, from Powell River to the Island to visit elderly parents and participate in other family obligations or go to Vancouver for medical visits, I have reduced my "optional" trips because the fares are becoming too high. Most of my acquaintances have cut back on trips for the same reaaason.
I moved to Powell River, a beautiful community by the way, for work eighteen years ago, not because I wanted to "get away from it all". I grew up on Vancouver Island, even travelled on the midnight CPR Princess to Vancouver as a young child and know that WAC Bennett created BC Ferries because of a strike in the privately run Black Ball Ferries - not that BC Ferries is immune to strikes...
The ferries should be a Crown corporation with subsidies just as all the blacktop highways receive.

They do

"BC Ferries offers ferry service under a service contract with the Province of BC. Through this contract, the government pays BC Ferries a defined annual subsidy or “service fee” in return for making specified numbers of ferry sailings on specified routes, with a maximum total value of some $106 million per year."

Thers no drop in PR

You perhaps are travelling less wyvern but the Powell River run is growing. A quick boo at the Corp Annual Report: Route 17 2006 vehicles carried 391,407 in 2007 397,858.
Passengers only 2006 178,968 in 2007 183, 883

Skip the frills

Fire the CEO - return the corp to the public sphere where the minister will have to answer for its operation - build ferries in Canada not somewhere else and recognize that it's a service and NOT A PROFIT CENTRE - simply part of what we pay for being citizens here.

Practice some decent labour management and recognize that there's more to this province than friggin' Vancouver.

You have got to be kidding me!

Let's take a look back at BC Ferries' track record:

1. A disastrous decision to spend $400 million on the so-called Fast Cats. High-speed aluminum-hulled boats in log-infested waters. so fast they create a six-foot bow wave, causing erosion and accidents. I know one woman who suffered a broken femur because her kayak was thrown up on the rocks by a Fast Cat. The only thing about them that was fast was the maintenance.

2. Queen of the North. Two years after the deaths of two passengers, the people on the bridge are not talking, and have not been charged. How about charges for "Dereliction of Duty", "Criminal Negligence Causing Death" and "Obstruction of Justice?"

3. Loss of power at the Horseshoe Bay terminal, resulting in extendsive damage to private boats.

Heads need to roll at BC Ferries, starting with the supercilious Mr. Hahn, who seems to revel in his own impotence.

The old-school approach of firing the people responsible for screwing up has the advantage that people can feel that there some semblance of responsibility and accountability in place.

Finally, the ferries seem to break down every long weekend, which strongly suggests sabotage. And we wonder why ridership is down.