Mr Beers....

Now, really, Mr Beers, can't you do better than this? Is this really worthy of a lead story? A 5% holding in a pizza joint? What editor approved this one?

And 5%, wow, that is a lot. Why not look at everything your RRSPs are invested in Mr Beers and tell me that everything is 100% politically correct, low fat and vegan.

Now if this is all the dirt you people can dig up on the present BC govenment you are either lame journalists or the government is the cleanest in history.

Yawn

I knew you two would take this story personally. If Campbell was found to be running a dog fighting ring and the Tyee printed the story you'd attack dog-owning NDPers and David Beers for that too.

I knew you two would take

I knew you two would take this story personally. If Campbell was found to be running a dog fighting ring and the Tyee printed the story you'd attack dog-owning NDPers and David Beers for that too.

lol... I hate Campbell and thought he was toast with his DWI! But really, this article is silly! I would have much preferred an article showing disclosure of all MLA's financial interests... seen on the Tyee but nowhere else on the net! Now that would have been interesting!

omg! talk about a desperate

omg! talk about a desperate opposition. are you kidding me with this one. a 5% holding in a pizza chain? whoever authorized this piece should be embarrassed.

'Hogg is on holiday in the

'Hogg is on holiday in the United States until Jan. 14 and unavailable for an interview.' hey, maybe there's a STORY there too. did he visit any republican states?

Jaques

I find it hard to believe that a man that blames all the problems of the world on the BCTF is now losing sleep over an article on the cabinet minister for good health owning shares in pizza joints.

I can see why after reading only "Great Leader approved" media you would see every other media outlet in the world as an arm of the NDP, the BCTF or al Quada.

Anyhoo, its almost midnight and I know all the Socreds have to bow towards Point Grey so I'll let you get back to that.

Luke Skywalker

Strange, I had you down as a guy who keeps a bust of Campbell in his room and feeds it bits of cheese in the morning while playing a harp. Not you? Apologies.

Groundbreaking story. The

Groundbreaking story. The investors in the tyee fellowship must be proud to see their dollars hard at work.

So JIm care to write

So JIm care to write something your self and summit it?

Arguing percentages

Saying that 5% is irrelevant is much like saying that 500 killings is not mass murder, while 5,000,000 IS mass murder.

It becomes up to those who decry the "irrelevant" numbers to declare at what point relevancy begins.

That Rotten Canwest

The Fascist Lackey Canwest Vancouver Sun ran as its byline a piece about a serial killer from Langley.

I am glad to see, however, that the Tyee did the right thing and started with this piece. I mean, FIVE PERCENT in a PIZZA restaurant! THE HUMANITY of it! Imagine if the minister ACTUALLY KNEW ABOUT IT! I'd wager it was buried in a mutual fund BUT HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN! We must insist on the minister's immediate resignation and flogging with celery sticks!

Glad to see Mr Beers has his priorities straight.

this great piece will surely

this great piece will surely make 'news story of the year'. has hogg resigned yet? i guess gordo should call it quits as well. carole who as the new premier? break out the fastcats. i hear dave zirnheldt and glennocchio are coming back too. how about ujhal 'i'm in over my head again' dosanjh? and as deputy premier? who else but that great socialist hero maureen 'tax the capitalist bastards to death' maloney.

Delicious

God I love seeing how the Rightees fall all over themselves sputtering when someone points out a little hypocrisy.

Enjoy fellas, there's no shortage of it in Campbell alone let alone his ministers.

By the way how much does the "media monitor' position pay?

Well, I thought it was interesting

Thanks for the comments, pro and con, on whether you think this story was worth running. It's an interesting conversation in it's own right.

For what it's worth, I thought Andrew's piece offered an interesting insight into the investment choices of one public official. Part of The Tyee's mission is to round out the conversation among citizens in BC, and this certainly will spark some interesting discussions about connections between investment and personal and public values. Is it the most important story of the day? Hardly. But I assume most of our readers can place it in context without wishing they'd never known about it.

We will, by the way, be running a piece that notes investments disclosed by a number of other MLAs of both parties.

And to be clear, this article was not funded by donations to the Tyee Fellowship Funds for Reporting. Fellowship funded articles are clearly marked as such, and the grants are awarded by an independent panel. It's a program separate from The Tyee's daily editorial process.

For those who choose to use these threads to consistently bash me and Tyee journalists from an ideological point of view, I have to wonder what you are trying to accomplish. It verges on troll behaviour. Why not contribute constructively to another site where you have admiration, rather than hostility, towards the people producing the content?

Frank, Jeffrey J - excellent points

It is illuminating that, upon a hard as nails confrontation with the disconnect between what the Campbell 'government' does and what it says, the only recourse for supporters and acolytes is a reference to something or someone from the past.

As in, 'Yeh but your mother wears loggin' boots'.

The fact that the situation has so deteriorated in this province that 'BCLiberals' can't find a better way to make themselves 'feel' good than such childishness is a great indicator of how far things have slipped.

Economist David Rosenberg announced in the US this morning the rather obvious fact that the American economy slipped into recession some time ago.

Maybe it's time to wake up fellas - because the horse you're backing has pulled up lame.

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/01/08/merrilllynchrecession.html

However...

Mr Beers, I could delve into the financial disclosures of the British Columbia opposition members and come up with a whole lot worse than that I would wager. But we are not going to see that on the Tyee, are we?

For example, why not run an exposatory artice on the Steel Worker's union's links with crime?

Ahem.

Yawn

Go ahead, let's hear what the opposition members own.

Such as the owners?

Year after year goes by and still you keep trolling in order to blame all the problems of the world on unions and the NDP.

Clearly we both know you didn't read the article being as there was no need to do so since you just wanted to trot out the same old hobby horse.

There's something really pathetic about hanging out on the Tyee and attacking its columnists and editor personally all the time.

Frank.....

Now Frank, I am just trying to show the Faithful that there are two sides to every story. Maybe you might learn something and actually get elected. As it stands, the NDP is on the engangered species list. There is only one left.

As for the metal theft, a Steel Worker's union member was charged with the theft.

But certain things don't get reported here. In case you don't know, stealing $180,000 in property is a crime while owning 5% of a pizza joint isn't.

investment advice for the asking

"In any event, what investment would one suggest?"

Good times:

1)your own capability

2)turf, enough to survive on in a sustainable way for you and your family.

3)tools

If we run out of turf, there are too many people. If you have more money that needed for the above, give the rest of it away. You have collected too much.

Bad times:

1)yellow split peas;they will keep you alive.

2)gold; Always idiots that will pay for the glitter.

WM

Then why do you only tell one side? Fact is, you don't see me hanging out on Can-West sites, I don't like them so I don't go there, common sense. You on the other hand don't like the people that work at the Tyee yet hang out here.

Oh man, we might get elected? I've never heard that one from you before, how enlightening. How are your Greens doing? They're the gov't in how many provinces now?

In other words, a worker. But to you he's not a worker, he's a union member and "proves" that unions cause crime or something. Nice spin.

This is why you should read the articles, hypocrisy is not a crime, its just hypocrisy. And I love the way you set your hair on fire every time someone points out an instance of hypocrisy on the Right.

W/Man

Thereby confirming (and reconfirming) G West's post: "Missing the Point".........

selkiy

Oh, you know how many NDPers drive big SUVs? Please share.

Sounds to me like provincial Liberal cabinet ministers, was I right?

The police aren't even there, they're out tasering old men in parked cars and preventing their girlfriends being responsible for their actions. And only losing a bit of pay rather than being called criminals.

That would be the legislative and legal system set up and run by right-wing parties during the entire history of Canada?

Some are so liberal they even join the Liberal party and become attorney-general don't they?

Well Frank

When the Tories start talking about a carbon tax, it seems to me things are a changin' since it was a Green idea to begin with and has been implemented in all EU contries.

Yes, the Greens have not elected a member yet but their polling numbers have steadily increased while the NDPs have steadily declined. You can look for yourself here:

http://www.mustelgroup.com/pdf/20071031.pdf

Provincially, the Greens are not doing as well but it is pretty obvious that Bakesale Carole is going to get walloped in the next election:

http://www.mustelgroup.com/pdf/20071126.pdf

That Green support could tip the balance for Carole and Jim Sinclair but since they can't change their policies, they are not going to get elected next time. Gordon had gone green and Carole had not.

Too bad this is lost on the Faithful.

Please add indignant prognostications and conspiracies below.

WM

If the NDP numbers actually dropped every time you said they had we'd be in the negatives. Fact is, our poll numbers go up and down and you only report it when they go down.

I don't think Gordon will win the next election because most people (not you clearly) realize he hasn't gone Green in practice. I think this would lead most people to believe Gordon is a bit, shall we say, hypocritical when it comes to his greenness. Let's see the Liberal positions on things like LNG plants before we call him Kermit.

Green numbers will cost Carole the election? Why? Example, you're a Liberal voter that went Green. I bet you're not alone. Safe to say that there's a better chance Green support will cost the Liberals the next election than it will the NDP. Something that is lost on the Right.

As for conspiracy theories, I prefer to leave that to the loony Right. If there was a Fox News in 1492 they would still be claiming the earth is flat.

More on election

If the Christian Democratic Party ran for government in Egypt and lost you would claim the problem is the Christian Democrats. If the Muslim Brotherhood contested the US election and lost, you would blame their policies. Same with the Libertarian Party.

However, when you have voters that simply don't change their vote regardless of what the ruling party is guilty of then really the fault is not with the opposing parties, its with the voters.

Historically we see very little change in the voting patterns of the BC citizenry. No matter what the issues of the day, people don't change their vote.

You blame the NDP for that.

All I would say in response is "whatever".

Facts Frank, Facts....

Have a look at the links in my last post, Frank.

Federally, since the last federal election, the NDP has gone from 28% to 21%.

Provincially, the NDP has stayed relatively at the same level since the last election, between 36 and 37%. They don't vary much since Bakesale Carole became leader.

The Provincial Liberals have polled between 48 and 50%.

The Greens have peaked at 16% once but average around 10%.

Well, Frank, since the NDP got elected with 39.45% in 1996 while the Libreals got 41.82%, I can't see any logic in your above claim.

Unless something radically changes, you are going to get walloped again, Frank.

MLA hypocrit not the worst

The fact that the Honorable Mr. Hogg is a self-serving hypocrit pales in the face of his being chosen by our premier to be the Minister resposible for healthy eating. His obesity alone shows that he is not suited for the position. His appearance, alone, makes him unfit to effectively market the product. Certainly, there must be one Liberal Minister who lives a life of moderation and healthy eating - thereby practicing what MLA Hogg preaches. One would hope that they are not all Hoggs at the trough. Obviously, Mr. Campbell has proven his ineptness, yet again. His own MLAs must be laughing at our premier behind his back.

Mustel

I've always been suspicious about data based on less than 1000 interviews...

As far as the BC Greens are concerned - do they actually HAVE a leader?

I wasn't aware of it.

WM

We're always up and down. 21% is not bad at all for us historically (federally) so I don't see your point of claiming we're done.

The Provincial Liberals have polled between 48 and 50%.

Again, for the NDP to win requires that voters don't vote the way they always do. Nothing will change when it comes to the main parties The only such voters are the Greens.

As you yourself say, the NDP are around where they always are so there is no evidence of the Greens taking away large segments of the NDP vote, as you claimed. Again, I don't see your point in claiming the Greens are hurting the NDP or Carole has failed. Because your numbers don't support that position.

Green Leader

Jane Sterk is the leader of the BC Green Party.

You can find more information here:

http://www.greenparty.bc.ca/

Frank, federally anyway, it is not like you are done, it is like you never were.

Provincially, I would like to see the NDP actually take a stand on something and be a more effective opposition. Stories such as this one only confirm my desire.

Translation

Trnslation: We at the Tyee only wish to preach to the choir, the Faithful, those who pay our bills. We, however, pretend to have some editorial independence, while at the same time get people to work for free.

Laughable but entertaining.

WM

If 21% is "never were" then the Liberals have been dancing pretty closely to "never were" now and then too haven't they?

And the Greens are somewhere less than "never were".

As for this story, its not about the NDP, nor is it written by the NDP.

If you want a more effective opposition you have to vote for one. Why should the NDP try and be a more effective opposition as you are concerned since you would never vote for them anyway? That would be a waste of time.

The fact is only two parties have ever formed a gov't in Canada or the US (after the early days) and to then say that the reason for that is because no one else has ever had a good idea demonstrates a somewhat shallow view of political history.

If you want a government with really new ideas you need to change the population.

WM

Unlike CKNW. The listeners of CKNW couldn't stomach the idea of hearing a different point of view so they hired Christy instead of Glen.

Then there's Can-West which runs political commentary from the premier's brother, the same premier whose party Can-West supports financially.

Talk about the "Faithful".

In the pudding, as it were

Well Frank the federal Liberals have formed quite a few governments, haven't they? How many has the NDP formed?

Because, Frank, in our system a hard headed opposition is needed to keep the government accountable. Heck, Jenny Kwon and Joy McPhail did a better job than the present opposition does.

When Clark was in power, the Liberals had his feet to the fire 24-7. That is how it is supposed to be done. It really works at election time, too.

I agree with you but I don't see the beer belly/lunch bucket/we know better academic mentality changing very much at all. The fact that you are down to one government should be a wake up. But it is not and will never be with you people.

Then there was Glen Clark who worked for Jim Pattison and hired his old friend and [PERSONAL INSULT DIRECTED AT ONE OF OUR CONTRIBUTERS REMOVED HERE...] Bill Tieleman [...AND HERE. WE ENCOURAGE AND EXPECT YOU TO CHALLENGE OUR EDITORIAL DECISIONS IN THIS FORUM BUT WE WILL *NOT* ALLOW YOU TO DIRECT PERSONAL INSULTS AT OUR STAFF OR CONTRIBUTERS. -MODERATOR.]

So, there are two sides.

Who is Jane Sterk?

Mystery woman!

Very high profile I guess.

Last time I went to the Green Party Website there was no provincial leader.

I emailed the Federal leader to ask for clarification about certain policies which weren't exactly clear on their web site.

It was a very polite letter.

I got no reply, so I tried again, same result.

I hope Elizabeth May wins a seat in Nova Scotia (and I'd be very pleased to see Peter McKay retire to pursue Condi Rice full time) but I'm not betting on it.

You're missing the point too realisticman - better read the journalism again. It's not the investing behavior that is being questioned it's the choice of fat food as an item for a man who professes to be a leader in a healthy eating program.

Maybe some swift marketing type should see if 'the maximum leader' would sign up for a few Absolut ads!

WM

The same number as all the other 3rd parties combined. So it must be shocking to see the Liberal numbers dance close to "never were".

Show me where. The NDP has been a good opposition many times and never got elected for it. And I'm not just talking about BC. Same with the other parties. Oppositions don't defeat government because oppositions don't change people's voting behaviour. The best the BC Libs could hope for was that NDP voters would sit on their hands, not that they would actually change sides. Its the same now, the best the NDP can hope for is that Liberal voters will be fed up with Campbell enough not to show up on voting day, it would be the height of foolishness to think they'd actually vote NDP.

And the fact you Greens have been around for decades and never done squat or even got into double-digit numbers in either Canada or the US has not had any effect on you either apparently.

The NDP is the natural governing party of Sask and will be back in power. No ifs about it, it'll happen as surely as the sun will shine. Which to you I guess means that the Conservatives and Liberals there will simply never learn?

Bill Tielman writing for 24 hours you equate with Can-West? Riiiight.

Frank

If I hadn’t agreed with the comment about SUV driving NDP'ers, I would have used something like "tree hugging Vancouverites who scream about the pollution coming from those of us who drive on the freeway but are too attached to their smart cars and Saabs or whatever (!) to take transit the 10 or 20 blocks to work" Talk about Hypocrites! I admit it... I drive a big Ford F350 Diesel pick up for my chosen work and I love it! But I don’t whine about the fuel taxes. I walk when ever I have the chance but seeing as how most of the Fraser Valley hasn’t been planned out too well and Translink doesn’t see fit to give us bumpkin’s adequate transit, I drive to the grocery store, bank and movies. My point is I don’t know how many NDP'ers drive SUV's but They along with the Liberals and Green party and whoever else you can think of in politics is so pointing out everyone else’s nasty hidden secrets because they want to draw attention away from themselves.

That is an unfair comment about police... there are situations where police have definitely done the wrong thing. That poor man dying at the airport is one very tragic example. that horrible example should also make it glaringly obvious that the police who put them selves in harms way every day as an occupation for your benefit as well as mine; are dreadfully understaffed, over worked, frustrated and at a breaking point. We need to support them in ways that count. Like funding training for police and ensuring that there is adequate numbers to give each member the time off he/she needs to maintain some sanity. (It’s a highly stressful job in case you've never been down town at 2 am witnessing two female officers take down a man wielding a butcher knife. No they did not shoot him or taser him. But it’s not a job you could ever get me to do!) These men and women for the most part are good people who are mentally suited to the work and are very patriotic. Can you blame them for becoming frustrated and demoralized when they see an increasing number of junkies, pimps pushers, car thieves, rapists, street racers and murderers being released with out reasonable punishment and then the police them selves are vilified and reviled and blamed by the media and public?. then there are staffing issues that force these people to work excessive hours and I imagine that there is not enough stringent aptitude testing to ensure that people who are not stable enough and able to cope do not get put in positions that will lead to situations such as the one at the airport. Some people in a police uniform shouldn’t be there... I can agree with that but to make it seem as though the majority of police are sadistic villains waiting to taser every defenseless grandpa is silly and you know it.

Are you implying right wing

Are you implying right wing is bad? Are you saying that universal health care is bad? Have you needed heath care in the democratic country to our immediate south recently? Are you in some massively understated way telling me that it is social conservatism that is responsible for the lack of structure that is causing the fundamental break down of our society? Personally, I think the anything goes attitude has been the greatest ruination of our society to date. If anything could make it better, it would be a return of some traditional values, not just safe injection sites and free crack pipes, but hard time (like quarry work and chain gangs and yes even the death penalty for serious crime, forced long term detox and rehab with long term supervision; like a halfway house. No bedroom politics in the school and less intolerance from the so called secular world towards anything traditional. )

I don’t know much about Wally opal if that’s who your implying but what I have heard, he was a good judge; fair, tough on serious offences, merciful when he saw the need and so on... Hence the reason I said SOME judges?

selkiy

Right, because erecting a straw man is easier than dealing with facts. People have all sorts of reasons for driving what they drive. Transit is simply not an option for many so they use a car. NDPers don't buy cars because they want to throw money down the toilet, its because we need them. I realize that may be hard to grasp.

I'm not whining about the fuel taxes either and its not like I'm a stranger to driving a V8. My first car was a Mustang with a 351 Cleveland.

Again, so do NDPers. Its not a crime nor is it hypocritical. Transit simply doesn't exist for most of us where we need it.

Really? That's the reason? Have you ever met a provincial Liberal? They attack the NDP for crimes real and imagined 24/7. Some just don't like it when we fire back.

selkiy

I support the police in general but I've met lots of cops that were simply not good people. No matter how you slice it the police get their personnel from the part of the populace not afraid to get violent and with that comes a large number who like the power and the ability to wield a violent weapon lawfully. If you've been on the wrong side of a bad cop count yourself lucky.

Giving bad cops a slap on the wrist is pathetic and is why bad cops don't get weeded out.

selkiy

Yes

Like the Taleban? We should base our society on traditional values like 3rd world countries?

You hate the entire justice system but you give the police and right-wing legislators a free ride and blame it all on "liberal" judges. I think you're wrong, period. Our justice system is a product of our right-wing governments, blame them.

errata

Should of course said "if you haven't been" ... etc

Frank

I am not a Liberal, nor an NDP'er I do not care for politicians (pro or amature) who are unable to accept that they are part of the problem. and yes thats why every political personality is busy slinging mud; it gets them the attention they desire from a fickle public and hopefully the next guys nitty gritty is worse that his/hers so it will take the heat off.

I am certainly not suggesting that an NDP doesnt need a car, dont be absurd. just dont tell me I dont need mine! I dont care what your political leanings are, hypocracy is a big part of the game. and yes its been a few years but i did have the occasion to meet a few provincial politicians. Its not an experience i'd be hasty to repeat with all the preening and mud slinging, deflecting accusations with theatrical outrage and and "what abouts...!" from both sides.

Frank; You are a sensationalist!

I love how you take every thing and turn it into a jihad for yourself! the break down of society is a complex problem. I am pointing out a specific issue that you seem to want to place the entirety of blame on. Thats tolerant left thinking for you! I do not hate the justice system. WE are all responsible for the decadent rotting empire our "rome" has become. We can make it better, its going to take some tough love and a large dose of like or lump it.

selkiy

So you would agree then that society must decide as a whole how to fix our problems, not simply condemn a random group for all the problems?

But I didn't. I realize there are people who live in areas well served by transit and a close proximity to shops and services. I'm just not one of them, I need a vehicle.

I hope you found Mr Krueger well. Seriously, I would imagine there is a "type" attracted to political power just as there is a type attracted to police power.

selkiy

Thank you

Yet you feel a return to the values that got us here in the first place would be a step in the right direction, I don't.

Go back and re-read what you posted, I don't believe I was wrong to assume you had serious problems with it.

Again, your prescription sounds to me like the cause.

Frank

And oh yes, it would be so easy to write me off as an extremist but the fact of the matter is that only in the last 50 years with the pulling away from traditional values (that would imply views that we could commonly hold as valuable and worthy outlooks in life), with the extreme move to the "Left" and the anything goes attitude that marital breakdown the abuse and killings of married often pregnant women, serial murder, child exploitation & rape, suicide to name a few things is on the rise.

Influence

Well Frank, just because a party does not hold power does not mean its policies are not valid. Look at the carbon tax in Europe; it is coming here sooner than you think. All people using machines that emit CO2 will be taxed on that value. Same counts for factories and cars. It is high time, too. You will not see the NDP support it, though, because it will mean the death of the "domestic" auto industry, whatever that is.

Your party also had considerable influence on government policy in the 1960s and early 1970s as well as with the Martin government, which it brought down, by the way.

frank

isaid:
the break down of society is a complex problem.

you said:
Yet you feel a return to the values that got us here in the first place would be a step in the right direction, I don't.

Mans inate carnal desire to do what feels good at the time never considers the consequense of it actions until the deed is done and just like a child caught doing something naughty the reaction is immediate and predictable; "uh oh, it wasnt me! i didnt do it!"

Frank

I can see you're on a roll.

Don't blow a gasket but please expand on this strange leftie gibe. Provincial and Federal chronology would be appreciated.

By the way, selkiy is right. Tough love is the only way.

selkiy

What extreme move to the Left?

The Left is for one of those things? News to me.

Fact is you guys on the Right want a libertarian society, no gov't in your life except the use of violence on the poor. Everything is to be dog-eat-dog and personal responsibility and failure will be rewarded with poverty and more violence. Well, here's the result. Everyone is more concerned with "me me me" and not about "us".

Again, you don't like society because its the product of right-wing values which lack compassion and understanding of history. And if you think exploitation and killing only started in the last 50 years I suggest a library card.

WM

The Cons rejected the lone idea from the Greens.

We'd support it if its more than a tax on the poor to support the crimes of the rich. I'd rather tax stupidity than carbon but we'll look at it when it gets here.

And good riddance, lots of things have gotten better since Martin was kicked to the curb except the budget and that can be blamed on Flaherty.

Realisticman

By the way, selkiy is right. Tough love is the only way.

My evidence : there has never been a left-wing government federally in Canada.

Now to you : what is your evidence of "tough love" being the only way? Perhaps like how residential schools "fixed" the native problem?

Carbon Tax

The NDP is going to loose big-time over this. How else can they hold on to central Toronto without supporting it? They'll have to sacrifice all of blue-collar Ontario in the process. Out here too. Will saw mills swallow the tax or boost the cost of product to US clients, or lower cost, including salaries, to remain viable - or close down.

Frank

Perhaps you've never worked on a farm or had a pet but all animals, including children, need guidance, absent that some go out of line and can only be bought back with discipline. First the right wingers suggested that and nowadays many centrists say the same. Sustained liberalism is turning too many people feral.

Realisticman

Perhaps you've never lived on one like I did for 10 years?

In other words you want to treat adults like animals or little children. Not surprising, I've always considered right-wing politics to be very paternalistic.

Carbon Tax

Us and the Conservatives you mean? I doubt it. The NDP is not going to dump on labour in order to chase the ephemeral Green voter who already hates the NDP for daring to be better than them on the environment.

When carbon taxes are more than a tax on the poor to pay for the crimes of corporate Canada we'll look at it.

Yes

Yes, the carbon tax does cometh, and the NDP will the ball dropeth.

That is because their only policy and refuge is in the past.

For example:

If this ain't dogma, what is?

The Future is not Scary, Frank

Frank, that vote is getting smaller and smaller. Services are a hugely larger part of the Canadian economy than metal bashing now. The cabon tax is coming. It has been in effect in Europe for ten years and has led to reductions in CO2 emsssions and oil consumptions. It has not affected levels of employment at all. If anything, it has increased them.

WM

Except that the NDP was rated better than the Greens on environmental issues, the truth hurts I guess?

Dogma? Better than being juvenile and ignoring the actual policies of the parties in order to instead think politics is a game and your team is "winning".

But if you guys on the Right want to blame the worker for everything including global warming, go ahead, by all means don't change your outlook now.

WM

People in the service sector are workers, they're "labour".

As for the carbon tax, let's see the policy. I'll decide how I feel about it when I read it. Just as I don't believe the "Clear Skies Act" is good for the environment because of the name.

When the policy is actually written up we can look at it and see who it makes pay and who it lets off.

I'd really like some more evidence of this r/man

Sustained liberalism is turning too many people feral.

What world do you live in?

Where exactly is this true?

Let's look at a few examples - please.

What's turning people feral is the god-almighty quest for MORE. We had a reasonably fair and egalitarian society here in Canada until someone decided we had to have the Americans’ approval for everything and the government lit its hair on fire in haste to adopt a criminal American system during the Nixon era.

It's been downhill ever since. Families who can make a decent life for themselves and their children are becoming few and far between and it has nothing to do with liberalism or socialism and everything to do with failed economics and overweening self-interest – not a little of it from the failed Chicago school…

And, for the last time, this article is about the hypocrisy of a government (in BC) that says one thing and does another. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's hardly the only extant example of Campbell hypocrisy.

As for the future of the Campbell government, if its defenders can't do any better than the handful of you have done against Frank (all on his lonesome) I think it’s toast.

Well done Frank. Take a bow.

More on carbon tax

Actually one of the best things for the environment would be a slowdown in economic growth.

Because a carbon tax won't fit the giant island of garbage floating in the Pacific, it won't fix the loss of habitat or the extinction of species on land and sea. And it certainly won't alleviate over population.

"Carbon tax" in my opinion is a feel good measure where people don't have to change the way they live, instead they can pay a few more cents a litre for gas and believe the world is getting better.

Its a pipe dream and will sell well politically but not help at all.

Its too late for a "price signal" to save the world. We need real action and a real reduction in emissions, that isn't happening.

I will say the Conservatives are making a mistake not to support it because its perfect policy for them. They don't believe in global warming and therefore "pretend legislation" would be the way to go.

Frank

'08 looks like it will be fun!

Including libertarian politics? Or are they not right? I've always considered leftie politics to be the paternalistic ones. You know, the government knows best so we want to handle that. Like child-care.

I still can't imagine the NDP forsaking their ground-zero 416 and 604 snuggling-woolies without zapping Windsor and Oshawa metal bashers.

Realisticman

No, they'd be more the dog-eat-dog, personal responsibility and ignore the problems of the world stuff I mentioned earlier.

Perhaps "maternalistic" then? Because I don't see how the Right is different when it simply locks up some people and pushes others to the margin based on who it thinks is desirable and who it thinks needs to be punished.

libertarian = paternalistic = Big Daddy with a big stick

Absolutely. Far more so than any left wing organization.

Lefties are always at each others throats. Libertarians are little more than a few rich folks who think they can take everything with them and therefore want to hang onto all their ill-gotten gold. They devised a program where it's philosophically okay to deny man's essentially altruistic nature - folks like Any Rand, Milton Freidman, L Ron Hubbard and Tom Cruise. Great role models....The Germans have had enough sense to call such nonsense a cult and outlaw the bunch of them.

should be Ayn Rand

Sorry!

The mess that woman has been, with Friedrich Hayek, responsible for is absolutely appalling!

Was it the gold standard?

GWest

Difficult to remember '69 - you know. Trudeau, and Franco was still running Spain. Your nostalgia goes back that far?

W/M

...it's a sure sign that they have their eyes on the carbon credit side of things, that allow their fave contributors to trade, instead of actually cleaning up their acts.

Realisticman

This just in, Franco is still dead.

[apologies to Chevy Chase]

Don't have to remember because it's not nostalgia

It's simply the record, the facts and the evidence of the decline is obvious.

Funnily enough the biggest tax reformer in this country was a prairie populist...and Franco has nothing whatever to do with it.

I guess you like fish.

For those who counsel 'tough love'

I'd like to suggest the following:

HEATHER MALLICK
Action and overreaction in America
The U.S. penchant for strong-arm reactions
Jan. 15, 2007

For years, whenever I needed a writing kickstart I would read columnist and actor Stephen Fry's collected bits, particularly the Trefusis radio broadcasts of the late eighties.

Fry had invented Prof. Donald Trefusis, a raving old dotard of a philologist at Cambridge, who was invited to speak of modern times, of which he was entirely ignorant, to a BBC audience. This self-described gentle and biddable ancient creature would combine the finer points of philology (his 30-year feud with a rival academic about the root of the Papuan word redatt, which "as some of you may know means ‘unlikely to take part in evening games'") with random abuse. For instance, he deplored chirpy morning television shows. "Such an obscene orgy of vulgarity, baseness and ignorance I hope never to witness again," while praising the jolly gunplay of Starsky and Hutch.

The climax of the Trefusis broadcasts was his visit to New York City to study iotal elisions. Naturally he was arrested while discussing something called "crack" with a large importunate man in Greenwich Village. Trefusis took it as a tribute to his great brain that the cops kept calling him Wise Guy. "But the compliment is wearing thin," he told his listeners, "and I long for liberty."

And then, to my utter glee and horror, it all came true. It happened this month in Atlanta at a conference of the American Historical Association. One of the world's finest minds, Professor Felipe Fernández-Armesto, the famed Cambridge scholar of global environmental history, author of 19 books and the current occupant of the Principe de Asturias Chair in Spanish Culture and Civilization at Tufts University in Boston, decided to cross the street.

He was accosted by a young man who told him he was jaywalking. The professor thanked him and continued on his way. The man said he was a cop, the professor could see no evidence of a uniform (he later said the man was wearing a rather louche garment, a "jerkin" worn by someone affecting a raffish image; to me, it sounds like a bulletproof vest) and he asked the officer for his identification.

The officer took offence, kicked the professor's legs out from under him, smashed him to the pavement with the help of four other officers, crushed his neck, bloodied his head, yanked the slight 56-year-old man's arms behind him, handcuffed him and sent him to jail in a fetid paddywagon. The professor ("I do depend on my spectacles," he said later, which had gone in the ditch), had no identification beyond his Cambridge parking pass and was given no chance to explain himself.

(continued below)

continuation - nixonomics

Fernández-Armesto, the kind of man whose accent resembles that of the Queen in her Christmas message, whose suit has a matching vest, and who carries a watch chain, sat for eight hours in jail in the company of "sad, degraded or deranged" people, almost all of whom, as he pointed out in a YouTube interview, were kinder and more civilized than the police who had arrested him. Almost all were black, he said, which was evidence of racism. These people needed help, not locking up.

"Aging members of the bourgeoisie don't normally endure this," the professor said with a nervous, horrified giggle. "I was very much the odd man out."

As he explained, one of the aims of his life is to never give trouble.

"I am pathologically law-abiding."

One has an extra obligation to be so when one is the guest of a foreign country, he added. He hadn't known jaywalking was a crime that required bail of $1,371, which was eventually produced by a bail bondsman.

When he appeared in court the next day, he said three or four words, the court said "Huh?" and the judge realized that the arresting officer, Kevin Leonpacher of Niceville, Fla., had got the situation badly wrong.
Charges were dropped

The charges were dropped, Leonpacher is sullen (very much a "hominid," as the professor described him, "but that is an injustice to hominids"), the mayor of Atlanta has called the police chief on the carpet, Fernández-Armesto says he is not litigious, the American Historical Association is overcome with embarrassment, and I am a happy, albeit appalled, person because I have seen Prof. Trefusis spring to life after 20 years on the dry page.

conclusion

What gladdened my heart was the response on YouTube.com. Young American downloaders were appalled by the Atlanta police blitzkrieg on a frail, older gentleman, and even defended Fernández-Armesto when one poster accused him of using "big words" to impress people. That noble poster even apologized (this never happens). Downloaders were gracious. They were angry that a visitor's basic rights and freedoms had been destroyed by thug cops. I swear, it is the young who will save that troubled country.
Overreaction elsewhere

As the story of this surreal police overreaction unfolded, Americans were overreacting elsewhere. The U.S. military bombed Somalia, one of the poorest nations on Earth (along with Afghanistan), and missed their claimed al-Qaeda targets. They invaded the Iranian consulate in Iraq, a grave violation of diplomatic rules in the first place, but also putting all American embassies at risk. The next day, the U.S. embassy in Athens was bombed.

I do think there's a link between banging up a historian, bombing the destitute and breaking the code of diplomacy. I call it American hysterical overreaction. I also call it contempt for the rule of law. My very clever editor differs with me on this last point. He suggests calling it "Nixonomics, a calculated risk on the cost-benefit of ignoring the law."

Most interesting. Perhaps we shall have a scholarly conference, as both Fernández-Armesto and his fictional doppelganger Trefusis would recommend. It has been said that Cambridge produces martyrs (like Fernández-Armesto) and Oxford burns them (Trefusis's undoubted preference). Leonpacher should be grateful that he attacked the first, and not the second.

Just responding to your good

Just responding to your good buddy and comrade Frank, who said;

Then Frank asked;

Well, the BCTF union has $38.2 million in Nestlé. Google them and some of the others on the $8.9 billion list above.

In an attempt to show support and divert the conversation we have this sort of sanctimonious chatter which nullifies absolutely any criticism that could possibly be heaped on Mr. Hogg.

Completed with a side-swipe at the government, as per usual, and a sort of apology to comrade Frank since he had to divert and parry without back-up.

Well done Frank. Take a bow.

Fascinating strategy and attempts at obfuscating spin.

Thanks for that Zalm

It's nice when we get a post from someone who really KNOWS something about an issue instead of a hearing a lot of sanctimonious smoke blowers trying their hardest to make themselves feel better about the bad behavior of their political heroes.

The phenomenon of constantly bringing up what's assumed to be extenuating circumstances to salve the guilty conscience is an old one...not dissimilar from Hillary Clinton's crocodile tears in New Hampshire and her husband's recourse to remarks like this, about Obama, “the biggest fairy tale I’ve ever seen,”

Pretty much the same sort of marginally racist and unquestionably bigoted discourse we see here in many Tyee comments as an excuse for the unforgivable and corrupt record of the Campbell government.

Zalm

When you say that I haven't a clue I wonder what you mean. As I said before, if one takes a look at the Teachers' Pension Plan Annual Report one can see some interesting investments. That these investments are are made at arms length may be but they do exist.

Realisticman

You have supported the idea of the right-wing ex-Presidential candidate Pat Robertson talking to God and dismissed criticism against him by saying other churches exist.

You say the Left is more paternalistic than the Right because we think day care is a good idea while at the same time your personal beliefs are that adults should be treated like animals on a farm.

You dismiss the hypocrisy of Hogg by saying the opposition would be the same. Then, your idea of "the opposition" isn't actual MLA's which any thinking person would have assumed would be the "opposition". Its the BCTF and their pension fund.

Frank

There is absolutely NO basis for ANY of your ridiculous statements above. You are just trying to goad me. By the way, I completely Disagree with all you have written here. You're dreaming and twisting and jumping to incorrect conclusions.

I'm tempted to hit the "Suggest as offensive" button, I guess that's what you wanted.

Realisticman

No basis? Read what you wrote yesterday. I'm practically quoting you.

Certainly sounds Franco or Mussolini like to me.

Either way, very extreme.

I assume you'd like to retract your comments or would you rather hit the "Offensive" button at someone who is quoting you?

Frank

Just to remind you, again, Frank. I have never commented on Pat Robertson. Never.

You brought up Pat Robertson and his ever-weird prognostications, I simply rounded out the theme quoting part of last weeks' sermon from Obama's church. When pushed I wrote this:

spirits and faeries seem to rule, worldwide.

Now, if you think I therefore support Robertson talking to anyone or anything, in this or any world, or his ideas in any way please explain how you arrived at this conclusion.

Honest question. Do you wish you hadn't bought up the BCTF?

Realisticman

I mentioned the BCTF in passing because Elliot has been attacking the BCTF on almost every topic on the Tyee since 2003. He can't seem to write 5 posts without bringing it back to the BCTF or Chudnovsky.

Why would I regret it? I'm always happy to talk about the BCTF even when they're used for the millionth time to deflect attention from something the Rightees don't want to talk about.

As for Pat Robertson, in response to me you posted something from the Bible which made no sense to me (neither the reference nor why it was posted in response to my post). I then asked you a direct question and you gave me the "faeries worldwide" thing which again was not a valid response in my opinion. I asked you again and you never responded. So to me it seemed pretty clear you were deflecting the topic away from poor old Pat by somehow equating him with Obama.

Oh I don't know realisticman(sic)

Anyone promoting an oxymoron like tough love and trying to pretend that the mess the neo-cons have made of the world in the past 30 years has anything to do with something he's invented and labeled as "sustained liberalism" is an ally of Pat Robertson's point of view - among other questionable orthodoxies that I'm too polite to name.

I think Frank's comments are entirely fair - furthermore, you haven't made an inch of headway on the BCTF thing or the horrendous red herring of the suggestion that pension investments have anything to do with this story.

They don't; furthermore, the mental gymnastics and faulty logic necessary to sustain such a contention are simply absurd and laughable, in my view.

As David Beers pointed out some time ago on this very thread:

We will, by the way, be running a piece that notes investments disclosed by a number of other MLAs of both parties.

And to be clear, this article was not funded by donations to the Tyee Fellowship Funds for Reporting. Fellowship funded articles are clearly marked as such, and the grants are awarded by an independent panel. It's a program separate from The Tyee's daily editorial process.

For those who choose to use these threads to consistently bash me and Tyee journalists from an ideological point of view, I have to wonder what you are trying to accomplish. It verges on troll behaviour. Why not contribute constructively to another site where you have admiration, rather than hostility, towards the people producing the content?

I think we could probably extend those remarks to cover your own facile attempt to make yourself feel better for supporting a government and a philosophy that is, in this and almost every other area (including child care), ethically, morally and democratically bankrupt. And I’d say, mutatis mutandis, that some people engage in exactly the same kind of behavior toward other posters (of a different inclination) as that which David Beers has decried in respect of his journalists – including Andrew MacLeod and, frequently, Bill Tieleman – an pusillanimous attack upon whom you will find the remnants of just up the comment thread here if you take the time to look. These are the tactics of desperate men.

As for the pensions investments, as I noted earlier, that contention has been thoroughly and comprehensively answered by zalm’s post a few hours ago. You’re beating a dead horse and it’s not pretty.

GWest

Coming out with both barrels blazing now, are you.

I think David Beers and pender paul summed it up quite well:

David Beers;

pender paul

BS

Lame.

It does nothing but show to what ends the Rightees will go to say "we're not worse than thee". And yes I believe that is the official motto of the Conservatives.

Hypocrisy

Fact : Hogg is the "minister of state for Act Now B.C., the program that promotes healthy eating and exercise".

Fact : He personally, not through a mutual fund or whatever, "has a five per cent interest in the Stavenger Drive Pizza Company and the Kelsey Drive Pizza Company, both of which own Boston Pizza Restaurant and Sports Bar franchises in St. John's, Newfoundland. Hogg's wife LaVerne has a five per cent share of another company that owns a Boston Pizza in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia."

Not against the law but equivalent to Mothers Against Drunk Driving owning a stake in Labatt's or Molson's.

Also kinda like how the people that call themselves "traditional" and love their "family values" seem to be full of those that dump their wives for younger models. And yes, I'm looking at Gingrich and Guiliani as well as a certain premier according to rumours.

It shouldn't be necessary realisticman(sic)

But since you can't seem to comprehend standard English, I'll post it again....

"For those who choose to use these threads to consistently bash me and Tyee journalists from an ideological point of view, I have to wonder what you are trying to accomplish. It verges on troll behaviour. Why not contribute constructively to another site where you have admiration, rather than hostility..."

Now go back and see who (and it's one of your allies) was behind the attack(s) Beers is talking about, an attack that was, in the circumstances, uncalled for, small minded, vindictive and rude - apart from being demonstrably wrong.

You really need to read a little more carefully.

I happen to have kept a copy of the offending words from your 'buddy' working man and although I hesitate to post it again, I will if necessary.

Find someone else with more patience the next time you try to convince the world that black is white. This continual obfuscation, in this particular case, is almost beyond belief in its purblind foolishness.

Families and true love

Frank

What do you think of Carla Bruni, Frank? Now there's a woman who seems to watch her calories.

Excellent! You're one of the few

Then you noticed right away when the line-by-line amount of funds for each of the private placements was omitted in the 2006 report. And asked questions, and probably got answers too, right?

Doubtless you've also gotten an answer from the trustees on exactly how easy it is to change your investment mix. And of course you were part of the initiative of the trustees to stimulate bcIMC to start up a socially conscious investment portfolio a couple of years ago, which has not done as well as certain other segments of the portfolio. But that doesn't matter - the trustees should just transfer all the BCTF pension monies into it and be damned to returns.

After all, the 2006 unfunded actuarial liability of $904 million is just an accounting device, and unimportant, right? I'm sure that we could make that up in a heartbeat if the trustees really put their minds to it. The Inflation Adjustment Account is in fine shape! And the Benefits account? I don't know why they had to cut off dental benefits for retirees last July, just to pay for regular MSP services that Gordo delisted more than a year ago. Why Cliff Boldt and Peter Minshull of the BCRTA were complaining about cuts to benefits for retirees I don't know.

Sorry for the sarcasm. These are all the same conversations I've had over the last 6 years with other MunicipalPP reps and with the trustees and finally last year the whole group of us at the Pensions BC offices with Gail Stephens. They had an answer for everything - or rather, a series of challenges or tradeoffs and no real answers.

Then there are employer issues that you probably have no clue about, but which are important for hospitals and municipalities, which skew the priorities even further, such as executive compensation. When you have hospital CEOs making upwards of $400,000 a year and city managers making more than $300,000, their issues about pensionable service and benefits come to the same table, but with considerably different goals. Be thankful that school boards don't have the same "overhead" as hospitals and health regions do.

Unspoken in all these conversations with Pensions BC and the trustees is the phrase "well, if you think it's so easy making money in a pension fund, you do it!" They're making incremental differences as money, research and information comes available. If you want to slag the whole system based on the 10% or so of shitty investments still in the portfolio, go ahead. I don't have to take you seriously.

Or you could get involved again with the TPPAC and really press the trustees to press MotherCorp for more changes, and give them your ideas on how to go about it. I guarantee you'll get a lot of support. then come back here and tell us your results.

Yep Guiliani and Sarkozy

Are excellent examples of neocon Alpha male behavior. And hardly the first ones...

Not that it has anything to do with the point YOU were trying to make about the corrosive effect of an imaginary and pervasive liberal orthodoxy now does it?

Some claims might better be left in the cellar of the 1930s with all the other outworn fascist propaganda.

The idea that immorality and family breakdown is somehow tied to the left is so absurd I can't believe it would even be entertained in a serious discussion.

A Lighter Note Regarding Restaurant nutrition

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20071125

And wo might that be?

yeah, do tell!

I for one am sick and tired of the double standards that allow a premier to have a seperate vacation, away from his wife and get picked up driving drunk..

If he would have the decency to quit preaching his "goodlife, family values bullshit, I could maybe forgive him.