This strike situation is so

This strike situation is so plain, simple and obvious. In the next 3 years Vancouver has to pay for all the 'make-up and lipstick' and extra police costs for 2010. Ottawa and Victoria aren't going to pay for it, so the only way they can get the money is through their employees. What money the city has saved in not paying their employees while on strike, will also pay for the increase in wages and benefits when they eventually go back to work.

wilcox group

This is the best PR they can come up with? What a bunch of hacks. Maybe CUPE paid them more to make the city look bad.

Bye-Bye Sam.

Consider Port Moody

Google: Wilcox Group (4th item, CUPE Olympics,,,,,)

excerpt:

[quote...Taxpayers across the region already pay almost $3 million dollars a year into the GVRD Labour Relations Bureau budget. The Bureau is hired to bargain on behalf of municipalities, many of which have opted out of these services, including Surrey, Richmond and Port Coquitlam. The city of Port Moody has applied to relieve itself of the services of the Bureau, but the process is made difficult and takes over two years. In a 2004 city press release, Port Moody management stated their reasons for the request to bargain on their own behalf with their unionized employees was to “bring about improvements about the way we treat our staff” and “about responding to today’s workplace realities and to Port Moody’s needs.”

Can it be long before we have the GVRD Labor Relations Bureau pleading poverty, with it's scant $3 million? Perhaps Port Moody has it right.

I believe that, under the guise of public relations, the Wilcox Group is collaborating with those that want to privatize as it reduces labor unions and their power. Many "experts" have been borrowed from the U.S., where the strategy has been perfected and applied with great success.

Contract Theatre

1. It's about the money, it always is.

2. The union and employer already have a pretty good idea what the figure is going to be.

3. It's obviously going to be a high figure, because of the length of the strike. The length is so that the city can remind us why they will be raising our taxes. The high figure (in practice, greatly offset by the current loss of income) is so that the union can posture to its involuntary "members" that it is doing a great job.

There are two culprits.

Who is holding the taxpayer hostage? How about the city who also have the power to settle just like the surrounding areas have. It seems that Sam can find money for all kinds of things questionable like PR firms when it suits him. If the message is honest and true what is a PR firm need for if it is not to spin the message (read lie) to the electorate.

Oh and Imagine the gall of the "garbage man" to demand a fair deal for doing work that is beneath the privileged status of most of you right wing posters.

Choices

"Oh and Imagine the gall of the "garbage man" to demand a fair deal for doing work that is beneath the privileged status of most of you right wing posters"

Point well taken. Am I right wing? Am I left wing or am I a pragmatist?

I have picked up garbage, cleaned construction sites gotten two degrees and a grad degree.

And any garbage man can do the same of he wants to make more money than he does now.

Economics lesson

Garbage workers don't have the right to demand more money?

Sorry people but in the real world nobody gets paid according to some idiot's chart. We get paid based on what we can demand, ie, "what the market will bear".

Why are right-wingers the most anti-market people on earth?

Wilcox also works for Can West

A question was raised about why Can West newspapers and broadcast media have not reported on Wilcox Group's involvement. Here's a fact that may be relevant:

Wilcox has worked for Pacific Newspaper Group, which publishes The Vancouver Sun and The Province. According to Wilcox promotional materials obtained by CUPE's FOI request, Wilcox remains the publisher's "agency of record" for labour relations.

Frank

Of course, the employees can “demand’ more of everything. That doesn’t mean they're are entitled to it. Most civic workers get well beyond “what the market will bear” because they exist in a monopoly environment. As someone on the right side of the political spectrum I’d be happy to see city services subject to the market forces. How many union brothers are with me?

typo

second sentence should read "they are"

NLN

Not true, I think perhaps you'd prefer "market forces" only when unions get uppity?

The City and its workers have a contract, now to you that might mean "monopoly" and therefore is fair game to do a repeat of Campbell's tearing up of contracts but if the shoe was on the other foot I doubt the right would be interested in the "power of government". I have my doubts that when people get screwed because they voluntarily entered into an agreement the Right is the first to say "unfair". I believe most would say the guy entered into the agreement without a gun being put to his head and therefore he should live up to the terms.

Did the City agree to unionized workers doing the job? Yes they did. Did they understand the workers had the right to strike for higher pay or better conditions? Yes they did.

This strike is simply the market at work.

Frank

Nope you're wrong.

And the rest is not so simple. The workers do have a monopoly because they are the only recognized group of employees that can be contracted to provide the work. Therefore, the city in obligated to put up with their BS. You want to see the market involved in this dispute and have free collective bargaining?

Give the city the “freedom” to bargain with any group of employees capable of performing the jobs………

BC Mary – chillax, are you a frustrated English teacher?

Union movement sliding into oblivion?

Not really "Workingman". Last week I posted information from the most recent report of the world economic forum that shows the opposite. Countries with the highest proportion of union workers in their workforce are outperforming those with low unionization rates by a huge margin - places like the USA and Australia where there has been a concerted effort to get rid of unions are falling back in both their economic well-being and their productivity.

All that education of yours which you’re always talking about doesn't seem to have taught you that much; If you're interested, I'll post the links again when I'm home from work tonight.

NLN

Yes, you could do it that way and not put the force of law behind contracts so that you could have free and open market forces prevailing all the time.

Which means of course why couldn't the unions negotiate directly with the people of the city? Why should Sam Sullivan represent everyone in Vancouver? After all, some here have complained that the uneducated head of a union is holding the city to ransom, well, I'm willing to bet there are lots of citizens who would be willing to come to terms with the union if Sam Sullivan wasn't in the way.

Now as you know, I'm a bit of a lefty. I presume you assume that means I pray 5 times a day with my body pointed at the legislature in Victoria but truth be told I don't like this government.

I would be quite happy tearing up lots of contracts, like the one that says someone else's idea of a police force has the right to give me tickets, the one that says Campbell makes decisions about my kids education system etc.

Strangely enough, if we were to dump contracts so that no one has a monopoly over anything there's lots of things I would dump and Campbell as my premier would be the first. Followed by the concept of BC.

In the end, Sullivan, and the Right, benefit more from contracts than they give lose.

Shoulda woulda coulda

"give lose"?

hmmm

meaning either "give up" or "lose", your pick.

It's more garbage

I would challenge the posters who support CUPE, to imagine that they had to buy all their groceries from one source, all their pharmacy from one source, all their gasoline from one source, all their auto insurance from one source ( oop's ) all their medical care from one source, all their bridge travel from one source, only have Canwest Global as their one source for news, need I say more?
This double standard is mind blowing.
We need to privatize everything that moves.
Politicians and their bureaucrats are not going to risk their power, in order to deal with non sexy issues like infrastructure.
They are gutless.
The best thing we can do, is to take more and more, out of their control.
Want to buy a bridge, or marriage licence bureau?

Privatizing a monopoly means what?

Okay, so we privatize garbage collection. How does that provide us with choice Ron? Even assuming having the choice of who picks up our garbage is a great thing in a person't life. By the way, can we privatize the mayor too? I'd like my own choice for mayor and I'm willing to pay him $50 to run the city the way I like.

And private companies will? Great, let me know when private companies start building infrastructure without asking for money in return from gov't.

Yes, we must give up power controlled by democratic institutions and put that power in the hands of unelected, answerable to no one, shareholders of large companies. Only then can we be truly free.

You've been on a steady Limbaugh diet for weeks haven't you Ron?

Choice?

"I would challenge the posters who support CUPE, to imagine that they had to buy all their groceries from one source, all their pharmacy from one source, all their gasoline from one source, all their auto insurance from one source ( oop's ) all their medical care from one source, all their bridge travel from one source, only have Canwest Global as their one source for news, need I say more?"

You've got to be kidding!

Did you see, how many percent of all the toys sold in OUR stores is made in China? Privatization results in choice? Do you know the vast array of quality toys that are available world-wide? Do you know how little of it we ever see here? Choice my foot! Check it out on the web, man, and come again when you've done your homework.

A marketplace can only work

A marketplace can only work when all the participants are at the same level. But when 999 people go to the marketplace, each with $1. in their pockets, and 1 person with $1,000, the concept of the marketplace if killed.

There's no such thing as "the marketplace" any more, because the markets are controlled by a few multinationals who are stealing both the producers and users blind, especially with "globalization"

The purpose of a "competitive economy" is theft ,as all forms of competition raise costs and transfer them on the shoulders of the public through the use of the perceived power of imaginary capital created by the banks.

Genuine competition is gone, replaced by legalized blackmail, exploitation and enslavement, legalized by a criminal ideology.

Right now we have a growing meat and food shortage all over the world, yet, the corporate, multinational mafia in control of the markets with the help of bought and paid for quisling governemnts, as we have with Campbell and Harper, are destroying farmers and ranchers, while raising prices in the supermarkets. Just yesterday, the price of our usual package of cheese was up $1. from 2 weeks ago. Has anybody heard of any milk shortage to cause higher costs?

In short, economic competition and the "marketplace", have become grand theft from the public.

Ed Deak.

nln, I have seen how real

nln,

I have seen how real marketplaces work, grew up with them and even had business experience in them. But we don't have them any more and real private enterprise is on its death bed.

The example I provided was a simplistic exercise anybody with and open mind could interpret, which cuts out the ideologically faithful............

The person who goes to the marketplace with $1,000. is in position to get control of the system and the lives of the 999, as we can see in our daily lives.

The beef and other food auction markets are under the control of a few multinationals, squeezing out and killing the producers, while raising prices to the public.

This is not "free enterprise", but legalized crime.

I can remember when the Vancouver ambulance service was still privatized and wrote about this before.

One day, during a 1956 summer lunchtime walk with some friends, we cam across an accident at Broadway and Granville, where a pedestrian was hit by a car and was lying on the sidewalk, half conscious.

The ambulances were ugly, Cadillac station wagons and when it arrived, the first question by attendant was: "Hey buddy, you got $35?" The victim didn't reply, just moaned, so the attendant was slapping his face with repeating the same question, then reached into the guy's pocket, took out his vallet and some money, then packed him into the wagon.

Most people were making $40-50/week then and I was apprenticing at ,75 cents/hr.

I hated privatized public services with a passion ever since, having seen hundreds of more similar disgusting examples, and will fight against them, and their pimping supporters to the end.

Ed Deak.

The Supreme Court of Canada

The Supreme Court of Canada struck down parts of a labour law because the government side of the argument refused to negotiate. The ciy seems to not have read that decisions. Collective bargaining has two sides not just management. So get with it Sam, sit down and hammer out a agreement before those awful smelly back allys on the East side don't end up on the west side as well. THis is supposedly a give a little on both sides dealling not some hack hired by Sam's gang to pop up regualrly to tell us the unions want too much.

But DPL

All the folks on the West Side have to do, if they're members of that toney institution, the Arbutus Club, is to arrive there with two sacks of garbage in the boot of your bimmer and $5. and presto-chango it's gone.

Sam ain't getting any pressure from his base because they don't live in the filth his administration thinks is fine for folks who don't belong to places like the Arbutus Club.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of Vancouver citizens think Sammy ought to be negotiating, and further, they think an offer in keeping with the percentage terms arrived at in other contracts would be fair for Vancouver workers too.

SIG

The answer to the questions in your last paragraph is no. Vancouver city employees have no legitimate claim to excessive gains in their negotiations simply because of the general work conditions that everyone that lives and works in Greater Vancouver has to deal with. Why should city employees be singled out to be “treated with respect”? Doesn’t everyone deserve that?

Yes nln everyone does

And that's why Sam Sullivan's stand in this strike is so bizarre. No one's asking for anything but general parity for the same work in the same area - if Sammy weren't trying to make a ridiculous point that has no business in labour relations - this would have been over without a strike.

It's not the workers who have the agenda - it's the mayor.

GW

I don’t have inside knowledge but from what I’m hearing both sides have an extreme political agenda in this matter. Sam’s not fighting with himself………

As for parity, have the unions simply demanded the most generous settlements in the surrounding areas?

Sam is still riding the 5

Sam is still riding the 5 ring circus wave, come on Sam get over it and bring this tantrum to an end!
You are playing with peoples lives here.

www.thefiveringcircus.com/for

http://www.thefiveringcircus.com/forum/

The point simply is

That if the surrounding municipalities have settled, and they have, without the histrionics attending the Vancouver melodrama then the difference can't be the union - these are all CUPE workers.

There can be no other logical conclusion than that the roadblock and the politics are coming from City Hall and not from the Union.

QED

Sullivan is the fly in the ointment - as he has been in every element in the city administration ever since he stole the mayor's job...as a matter of fact, you might want to look at this: The Garbage Strike Conspiracy at this location:

http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/

Sam's thinking

Sam thinks that with a prolonged strike he'll save enough on salaries that he will be able to cover the cost overruns to the city of the Olympics. I mean, why else would he put the public through his tantrums. So once more the 14 day party will be at the expense of the average person. It even satisfies his anti worker ideology. With the trend in the region quite clear there can be no other reason for a delay.

Seems some folks want to

Seems some folks want to privatize most every service. If my memory serves, North Van went private with garbage collection a number of years back then found it was cheaper to have their own staff do the job.
Sam is in over his head and doesn't know how to get out without looking stupid. It's easy Sam, call up Gordon and ask for an Arbitrator who can clean up the whole problem in a few hours by addressing the issues. I believe the Union has already called for a Mediator. Can you spell mediator Sam? Say it really slowly then try ARBITRATOR. Big city mayor with not much of a clue on city business. And the garbage keeps piling up

It seems odd to want to

It seems odd to want to privatize only the things that move. Why the discrimination against the un-moving? Take roads for instance, surely they are a prime example of socialist inefficiency at it's worst. I think we should privatize them.

Then we could all own our own private block and charge a toll on everyone who uses it. I'll take downtown Douglas street for my share. It worked for the B.C.R.I.C., right? Why shouldn't the province give everyone their own piece of private road?

Oh, and then there's the armed forces. Why should they be government owned? Surely private armies would be more efficient; like they had in Bosnia in the good old days or Iraq and Afghanistan today.

NLN

NLN: In answer to your reply of 14 hors ago:

If you re-read My rhetorical question: "...isn't that what everyone wants and should have while living in Canada?" you will see that I was not singling out city employees to be treated with respect. I believe that everyone should be treated with respect. I really admire CUPE employees for taking a stand and saying enough is enough. Their quite reasonable requests helps re-align the remuneration that all people working in the Lower Mainland should expect.

We have our provincial government extolling a BC economy that is going great guns - "full steam ahead", and yet, for the most part, the real raises in income have been for the upper 10% income bracket. The working class and middle class people of the Lower Mainland have been hit hard by real estate and transportation crunches. The base rate of pay for CUPE people and for many other people working in Vancouver is far too low. People are not flocking to the Lower Mainland to find jobs - even in this "booming economy"! The city has become unaffordable for family bread-winners who work there. Either housing costs must shrink back to pre-Liberal (pre 2001) levels, or workers need a huge pay increase just to keep their heads above water.

Selling the road

There's actually some evidence that the Campbell Government has done exactly that with portions of the BCRail right of way. Some of this real estate was transferred to CN for the princely sum of one dollar. Campbell loyalist Falcon gave a rather lame explanation of this to Joy McPhail in the house a few years back that has never been very convincing.

A lot more railway land has also been transferred somewhere, to someone, through a series of Orders in Council signed by the Premier. You can read a few more details here:
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

Look particularly at this story: Re-defined ... was a 4-mile section of B.C. Rail track "re-defined" as a CN rail yard? and the comments following it – particularly the last few entries.

In addition, if anyone knows his or her way around the Provincial Land Registry...there's work to be done.

This strike!

Hello all,
I am 30 years old. I have about 12 years service with the Vancouver Park Board (7 years auxiliary, 5 years full-time). This place hasn't changed a bit in 12 years. Other municipalities are progressing in terms of better and higher quality programming, better accessibility and better employment standards. This strike has served me notice in many ways. First off, it is not about the raise, 17.5 is great but I would rather have a job to back to instead of a raise. I love my job. In five years of full-time service, the last time I took sick days were in sept 2003 when I caught mono. Otherwise, I am at work. It has to go farther when my supervisor actually forces me to take a day off here and there. My work is my home but lately, it hasn't been. There has been a steady stream of contractors in and out. They want my facility and people are willing to pay big bucks for it. The worst part has been when one guy walked up to me from a competing firm and asked me what I make in an hour. I asked him that I wasn't comfortable telling him that and he said that he could find out anyway. He then went on to tell me that he would halve my wage when his company takes over. To that I said thank you and walked away. I guess its over. The City has won. I am going back to school. I will finish my degree or take up a trade. To all of you that work in the City at a mangerial level, I say good bye. You are not a top level employer. I am one of the few that has never filed a grievance. I don't use my sick time as an extension to my holidays. I have never been on stress leave. I am a strong employee. My staff tell me that I'm a good supervisor. I take care of them at the same time putting my facility's needs and operations first. I have been loyal. I've had enough of being spit on. The last quality that I have is that I'm very competitive. I will start again to build up a career but at the same time, I will look to do better than I did with the City Of Vancouver. I'm done. When the citizens of Vancouver find out what privatization does it will mean the end of access to affordable programs. But I will say this, thank you to the City for helping me hone my organizational skills, my conflict resolution skills, my time management skills, my communication skills, my supervisory skills and last but not least, my accounting and budgetary skills of which I used the most. I'm sure my next employer will appreciate me more when I'm using those skills at their job. In the
end, I love working. I feel that I am built to work in the public service. My life is built such that I am a simple person and I pay a mortgage which is manageable and smaller as compared to some these days. I looked forward to another 30 + years of employment. I'm a health nut so I take good care of myself. So to the City Of Vancouver, I say good bye. I'm done.

Let's get real.

I am a bit stunned that so few people commenting have done their homework on the real reasons behind the continuing strike. This is not about money: although the union has done a great job of persuading the public that it is. (Which is why the city embarassingly feels it needs an outside PR boost.) There are a host of complex sticking points, which include the city's very reasonable right to hire the best person for the job, at the appropriate wage rate. Imagine you are a small business owner. You have an specialized accounting job to fill but you are forced to give it to a inexperienced clerk because he has been with you the longest. You want the right to bring in someone with the expertise you need but if you do, you must pay everyone else in the department the same rate, even though they are not qualified to do the job. There is much, much more going on here than wage parity.

I blame the lazy BC media, and I sadly include the Tyee in this, that the whole issue has been dumbed down to soundbites and so much political posturing. It is not 'Sam's strike' or a 'garbage strike.' It is about whether or not we want our city and its services managed cost-effectively by professionals, or its operations dictated through completely impractical collective agreements penned by people who have never managed anything critical during their entire working lives.

To the young poster who works for the Parks Board, let me just say this. Stick with your public service job. With a bit of luck you will have a job for life. You will have exceptional benefits. You will have to pretty much kill someone to be fired. As you rightly point out, you can abuse the system with sick time and long term disability until the cows come home-- none of which is possible in the private sector.

If you don't want to work for what you suggest is an unethical private employer: start your own business. However, you will then have to risk your own hard earned cash and make tough decisions on competitive pricing, hiring and firing, wage rates and benefits. You would find it a very different view from the other side of the fence.

My my, the NPA is out in spades tonight

Well, that certainly applies to Sam Sullivan.

And this:
.

Is just plain wrong headed. As a matter of fact, the system is being played far more effectively and thoroughly by the private sector than it ever has been in the public one.

And this:

Is just plain baloney. Ask anyone currently playing the fiddle with the Campbell government in one of their absurdly badly run and costly P3s. As for business allegedly risking its own cash - don't get me started.

Who do you work for vicki?

I'll bite.

Hi G West. You don't know anything about me but you rush to judgment, which really is a pity.

At any rate, I'm happy to answer your question. I am self-employed and I have been for 20 years. I am not a private sector apologist or an NPA member. In fact, I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of any political organization. However, I have worked for both the private and public sectors and like any reasonable person, I see problems with both.

I also respect public sector workers and would not deny them a living wage and decent benefits or pensions. But in this case, I fail to see how (just as one example) an IT professional at City Hall deserves the protection of a water-tight collective agreement when the global job market in that industry is pretty competitive. And yes, I feel I can speak to abuse of the system in the public sector because I have seen it first hand.

I honestly believe that an environment which promotes the concept of jobs for life encourages an unrealistic attitude of dependence and entitlement. I think we all suffer when seniority trumps merit and ability. As a taxpayer, I also want public sector efficiency and value for money. Is that really so bad?

$45,000?

Vicki, you are a breath of fresh air.

I really believe that people should be paid well for their work. The majority of people in the world are paid according to the value that they provide. Are some of society's values backwards? No doubt. Teachers should be millionaires, and drug dealers should be penniless, just to name one example.

I read in the paper that garbage workers earn $22 per hour. Based on a 40 hour work week, my math comes out to $45,000 per year, plus full pension and benefits. That's more than the starting salary of a school teacher with four years of university. That's more than most web developers I know, or writers or lab scientists. That's a lot of money for an unskilled job, which leaves me wondering: if you can earn this much dropping out of high school, where is the incentive to learn a trade, or build a profession, or strive for a better life? Do we want to pay our garbage collectors more than our teachers? Is garbage collecting meant to be a life-long job?

This $45,000 number seems so high to me, I have re-crunched it several times: 22x40x52. If I've made a mistake somewhere, I welcome your correction.

And your post WASN'T a RUSH to JUDGMENT?

Why shouldn't workers have job security and a decent wage? Are you in favour of slavery?

The most productive economies in the world are the ones with the healthiest union sectors. If you don't believe me, do a little research - check out the most recent reports of the World Economic Forum. The US and Australia, the two countries in the west which currently are the most vehemently anti-union, are both losing rank to countries in which more than or nearly 50% of the workforce are unionized.

If you think there's a problem with the man or woman who picks up your garbage making enough to be able to afford a home in the city he or she serves then you have a problem, in my opinion. You made a series of entirely unsubstantiated charges based upon, respectfully, little knowledge and, in my opinion, a lot of prejudice.

What in the world is wrong for a society to work toward a situation where everyone has the security and income to raise their families AND be able to have a decent comfortable lifestyle. In the last 30 years we have chased our tails backwards to the point that family life is a joke, marriage is a disaster, child poverty is a crisis and the top 8% of our citizens live like royalty.

As far as abuse of the public system goes, I've seen the private - and I've seen the public and believe me, the public system can't hold a candle to the corruption, theft and fraud - not to mention entitlement - in the private economy. If you want just one example, have a look at this Tyee story: http://thetyee.ca/Bigstory/2007/08/20/BlackPress/

In addition, don't forget to click on the hotlinks in the story and read the background. That – Dave Wheaton’s behavior - is entitlement; and the private sector is full of it - from the corner grocer who feeds his family with stock he expenses to the business to the car dealer who imports cars from Alberta where records of accidents are incomplete and inaccurate to the businessman who kites cheques between two banks and the real estate agent who has his wife buy up the good deals before his customers even get a chance to see them to the farmer who uses marked gas in the family car or the employer who conveniently forgets to pay holiday entitlements to employees who aren’t familiar with Employment standards or the construction firm that does renovations without the necessary building, plumbing and electrical inspections or the carpet layer who installs your new carpet for $50 off the regular price as long as you pay him in cash.

conclusion

In the public sector their may be the odd goldbricker but in the private sector there are thousands of them – many of them may be your boss.

You don't know the half of it - and yet you're more than willing to condemn people who just want a decent living wage for doing a really nasty job.

Rikia: How would you like to pick up other peoples' garbage for $45G a year (your math is correct)? I think it's far too little for a very nasty but very necessary job.

You don't know the half of it - and yet you're more than willing to condemn people who just want a decent living wage for doing a really nasty job.

I don't think I want to know either of you.

And that other bit about education, well, that's garbage too, in my opinion. There is absolutely NO case to be made for saying that a teacher is more important than a garbage man or a nurses aide is less important than a web designer.

We live in a complex modern culture and the idea that some people are more 'worthy' than others - on the basis of what they do - is abhorrent. The next time your car breaks down and you have to call a tow truck; your house catches fire and you need the fire department; your lights go out and you need a hydro repairman; you might want to remember that.

All jobs, like all people, have inherent dignity – if they don’t, you might as well just roll up the sidewalks now and turn it all over to the boys with the big guns because you don’t want to live in a civilized country.

And you talk about city workers feeling a sense of entitlement!

I ask if $45,000 a year plus

I ask if $45,000 a year plus full pension and benefits is a fair salary for a job requiring less than a high school education and you ask if I'm in favour of slavery? Whoa.

What exactly are my "series of unsubstantiated charges?" I simply crunched the numbers and asked for a discussion of the issues of what is fair labour, rather than this constant political us vs. them that has bored me since the beginning of this strike. Are you arguing that $45,000 is not a high enough wage for a garbage collector? Then say so! Let's talk about it.

Yes, there is corruption in the private sector, but I don't see the connection to the strike.

And there is nothing wrong with a world where everybody has the income and security to raise their families. I too share that ideal. But in that quest my sympathies tend to lie more with single mothers, aboriginals on and off reserve, the homeless, those with mental health or drug issues and other disabilities- more than with those earning $45,000 a year with a full pension to retire on and up to 50 paid days off in a year. But maybe there is a disadvantage facing our garbage collectors that I'm not aware of. Again, tell me about it and I'll be happy to listen.

Rikia

This is what you wrote:

I think it's pretty offensive and I said so. You basically said 45G/ year was too much to pick up your garbage and that teachers are more important to our collective culture and health than garbage men and that no one would want to do a job like that as a career, in other words..Yuck! You couldn't possibly have a good life if you pick up smelly garbage!!!

Well, I think that statement deserved everything I said about it and probably a lot more: As for the other remarks about the private sector, they weren't meant for you, but for vicki - which I would have thought was obvious.

You're the one who puts this argument on an us v them basis when you say the things you do about "any" class of people. Just try substituting Jew or Black for garbage man or woman and you'll understand...maybe.

A plea for reason

G West, why are you so angry? Why do you make things personal? Can we not have a rational debate?

I think I made a valid point in a respectful way. I suggested, rightly, that the media has not outlined the real details contained in the union's demands. That we have instead allowed the parties to simplify a complex issue, which has polarized citizens who do not have the facts. And that this is deliberate as it serves someone's political agenda.

I also see wrong with suggesting that people should be compensated/promoted for their ability and professionalism rather than organizaional longevity. I can't imagine you would be too happy if you were up for a promotion and the guy in the next cubicle, who you knew had simply been marking time, got the job solely based on seniority. Does either party ever feel too good about that?

I am not anti-union: in fact I have worked for three of them. I just suggested the entire concept needs revisiting. Please don't give me the usual diatribe: noble working man versus corporate behemoths in league with greedy politicians. For every example you throw out, and every web link you point me to, I can send you in the opposite direction. I can also hook you up with responsible, ethical businesses who treat employees with respect, compensate them fairly, operate ethically and strive to protect the environment. I also know that for every public sector employee who is screwing the saystem there are 100 hard-working men and women who love their work and serve us well. I try to avoid sweeping generalizations but in this particular situation, here in Vancouver, I am not prepared to buy in wholessale to CUPE's agenda.

As for not wanting to know me: that's your loss. I'm good company, I have a great family, I'm involved in my community. My biggest concern is that truly marginalized people living in our community, struggling with poverty, addiction, disabilities and mental health issues get the support and financial help they need from our society. Pretty radical eh?

Reality hurts

This thread seems to be sinking into a discussion of whether $40K is a fair wage for someone who picks up the garbage. So I might as well start there by saying that this is an unanswerable question. If this was the private sector then supply and demand would sort it out and establish a rate. But it is the world of public politics and union power, which bears no relationship to economic reality.
Onto the bigger issues, I have to agree with many of the points that vicki has made regarding a unions right to input on issues of job hiring, job retention and the overall theme of meritocracy versus seniority.
No service organization can ever to hope to survive if people are promoted based on seniority. If that organization operated in the private sector then eventually it would have to change or die.

Why should the promotion policy be any different in a public body. The answer, of course, is abuse of power by large unions.
Highly paid technology workers do not need a union to speak for them, but the union does not want to lose them as that would be a loss of power. The union is not interested in a highly motivated work force that gets the job done efficiently, but in a workforce that increases in size.

Why do the unions not want any "contracting out" of services? Because they care about service levels? No, because they care about membership levels. Pretty simple stuff; politics 101.

This may be about service and economics from where the government is standing, but for the union it is clearly about power politics once again.

This is very much not "Sam's Strike"

Real wages and benefits must be relative to inflation

Vancouver has the highest mortgage rates in Canada.

How do you expect a working person like a garbage worker to live in Vancouver and to be able to make those payments without providing him or her with a decent wage?

If the wages of working people had kept up with inflation since the mid-eighties their wages would now be at least double of what they are receiving today.

The fact is, working people are falling behind....their real wages and benefits are continueing to decline, and their dream of owning their own home, a home in which to raise their family, is fading fast.

Obviously Gordon Campbell is making sure he is keeping up with the times.... and then some.

Recently Gordon Campbell gave himself a 54% raise. Now I call that garbage.

Real wages

The disconnect between wages and house prices in Vancouver is untenable. I don't know how it got to that state, or now, how we get out it. For me owning a house was always expensive but possible. For a lot of young people today it appears impossible.

But no one can just double the wages. Companies would go broke as there is always someone that will happily undersell whatever goods or services they are offering. If government tried it taxes would go sky high and the government would be brought down.

So though I agree with Lynn's statement of a very real problem, the solution is not trivial.

As for G West - I can only guess that s/he has a script that I am clearly not following. Your script is too simplistic; the world is a complex place. Unless someone can find a way to eliminate personal and group greed then I am afraid you will always find yourself frustrated with the world, content to unquestioningly accept naively idealistic solutions.

Do you think that these protected union workers are boycotting Wal-Mart in favour of their local store, when they know full well what the consequences of their purchasing decisions are?

I expect you do believe that, because that would fit into your world view. You have issues you need to deal with - its eating you up.

Jane doe

You haven't a clue what my worldview is. If you actually knew anything about economics, you’d realize that the most successful world economies are actually the ones with the greatest union penetration. And, if you haven't figured out yet why house prices are out of reach for 80 - 90 percent of the young people who work in Vancouver then I'm afraid I can't help you very much - one thing I do know, attacking the unions who are trying to do something about it for their members is inexplicable.

Why wouldn't union workers want some protection for their jobs and families - they would have to be insane not to want that - as would anyone else who cares about their family and their future?

As for calling me names and suggesting there's something wrong with my analysis - that's typical. When one can't cope with the message - shoot the messenger. It's been ever thus and I have no problems sleeping at night. I've never been a union worker except for 4 months one summer while I was going to UBC but that hardly means I don't know what's necessary to return this city and country to sanity.

Read the report I referenced above and lay off with the insults and personal remarks - they don't do a thing for your case.

Cheers.