capital exploitation

Provincially imposed "Agreements" - that weren't even debated in the BC legisltature by the BC Liberal (aka Reform party) - that negatively affect workers like the TILMA agreement, betweeen the ultra-conservative provincial adminstrations of BC and Alberta, will certainly do nothing to make for *fair* remittances likely for women - or men.

"Agreements" of that nature are "drive wages to the bottom" for the singular profit of "owners" - with the usual conservative "think tank" FUD (fear uncertainty doubt) about "competitiveness". Do you see owners "compete" by lowering their own personal "profits"? - "profits" - exploitation on who's back one might well ask?

Do you think women are going to be compelled to work in that kind of trades climate? I'll let others speak to "offshoring" labour - like in China - where women and men sure work - extreme hours like dogs, for next to nothing. Again, cue the "life is so much better for those offshore workers" arguments - and the crass windfall "profits" of the business "owners" who reap them, on the working people's backs of China.

Too Smart.

I think most women are smart enough to see this as a 'be careful what you wish for' scenario. The incentives just aren't great enough for any significant numbers to want to change.

Women where?

As someone who ran a construction company for twenty years, I can attest that it was almost impossible to get women to do outside work. I would advetise a position for an outside worker and women would not even apply. Why? Well, a lot of these jobs require a pretty large amount of physical toil. Young men aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed and they have a testosterone level that busts the meter so working like a draught animal is a scource of pride to them.

The young women I who worked for me were generally a lot smarter than the young men and not exactly relish tasks such as unloading rebar from a flatbed in the bouring rain. Further, most (if not all) were actually trained to do something in a an office. Thus, when I need an account clerk and a young woman presents herself with the required credentials, it does not make much sense to employ her as a labourer.

I would suggest Ms Braid spend a few days laying pipe on a site in the pouring rain. Then she go into the office and design a delivery schedule for premix, which is quite a difficult task.

Then she can tell us which position she likes better.

It goes much farther than this, too. I am now a stay at home Dad. You would not believe the number of stares and sneers I get!

tip of the icebeerg

Smaller industrial companies usually have a steady male workforce doing the actual manual labour, that work can be hard, dirty and unrewarding!

One of the ways that these men make it through the workday is by using a rather "free language" amongst themselves, in effect rebelling against the world they have to live in!

That language often has sexual overtones and while it sounds terrible the simple fact is that these men are breadwinners who at the end of the day go home and are good husbands and fathers.

We have had the arguments about the men in firehalls recently and much the same argument applies there.

As soon as a female is inserted in the midst af such a group, the dynamics change!

For instance men who put up with next to no facilities, suddenly see that the company has to arrange to the needs of females, who never would accept the conditions that men do.

The "free language" has to disappear overnight, and everything has to be as if the workplace now is a part of the secretarial pool!

Mens reaction usually is that women can work with them as long as they do not change the structure of the workplace they invade, but there is the rub: they do not only want your job, they also want the job to change to suit their needs!

For a guy who had to take the shit as it was handed out all along, that part is too much to accept!

Surely any man would want improved conditions, but if such was not available before it seem unfair that one female hired can "motivate" improvement!

People working in offices do not realize that many men work in dirty surroundings, get sweaty and greasy, only to have to go home in that condition!

That is because the firm does not provide facilities of allow anyone on the premises to clean up, even five minutes after the closing whistle!

So, sure they earn a living, but drive home with dirt on hands and face! see any woman do that!

The improvement should come regardless of sex, and that is where we need attention!

Women Not Interested

"When you realize how many concerns there are now about skilled labour shortages in North America, it just makes no sense to allow half the potential trades workers to be excluded or discouraged because of gender."

A lack of women in trades...must be sexism. It is possible that women just aren't interested? Why don't we have studies about a lack of men as nurses or elementary school teachers? BCIT has a program called trades discovery for women. The shortage of trades people is because the market in cyclical. I remember about 10 years ago my now former brother in-law couldn't find a job as a electrical labourer. He had planned to go back to school and then do an apprenticeship with his employer at the time, but he was laid off. The same thing happened with Medical Lab Technologists (I know one). BCIT shutdown the med lab program for a while because they couldn't place graduates and now we have a shortage. I wouldn't encourage my son to go into trades because of the cyclical nature. Wait for the housing bubble to burst and we'll see stories of people who rushed to get into the trades only to find themselves out of work.

Working Man

I took a month off to be with my then 10 month old son and I know of what you say about sneers. Women were the worst offenders. As a dad you are assumed to be an idiot.

...and a shortage of males, too

The article acknowledges that there is a shortage of tradespeople, male or female, and that's the real story.

It would seem that women don't want to be tradespeople. Of course, that's not enough for some people. Let me quote a liberal-appointed judge I dated a few weeks back:

"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WOMEN WANT. SOCIAL JUSTICE DEMANDS THAT THEY HOLD 50% OF ALL JOBS, WHETHER THEY WANT THEM OR NOT."

as a former driver...

Years ago I had a job as a truck driver. There were very few women truck drivers at that time and on my shift I was the only woman. It was very difficult being the only woman truck driver. The resentment from the men was felt on a daily basis.

I wasn't taken seriously and it got to the point when i got up to speak at a union meeting,"the guys" would run to the pop machine and buy pop after pop while I was speaking to make a noise so i couldn't be heard. There were daily snickers, sexist jokes and outright hostility. I finally left and went back to school. I then deliberately found a job in a mostly female profession.

So good luck to women wanting to work in the trades. I hope there is more support for them.

Not quite a "trade" but....

A couple of years ago I tried to get hired by the BCMEA /Longshoremen. I aced their written tests and came within 30 secconds of their timed physical test. Obviously, I could do the job if given the opportunity and a few weeks to build up the muscles. But they did not have to take me because of 30 little seconds so whether "social justice" demands it or not the odds are against women. Its funny because most of the guys down there admit they had a hard time at first too. So I second the good luck to women trying to go into "male dominated" work places.

Sexist jokes ... Oh! Nooooo!

I love it when women are so offended by sexist jokes and sexist actions. Guess what? They do it too. As a teacher, sexist jokes were posted often in women and men washrooms. And, good luck if you want to pass a motion to have a Status of Men's group? You try; you better have an incredibly supportive wife or prepare to fight passive-aggressivity or --worst-- subtle acts to make you look bad. We know women bully each other and studies have found that they bully men (psychologically) more than men. That being said,... there are psychological bullies (idiots) in all gender groups (women and men). But, I have also found that there is these politically correct groups who are offended to control others, to make them look or sound silly, so that they look or sound superior. Also, some women might be upset hearing something they do not like to hear. So, ...let's describe the sexist jokes, first, ok. If it is meant to demean a woman. Ok, I am with you. But, if it is a "How many blondes does it take to ... " joke, then, stop whining. It is true that some guys might be the macho type, trying to get a reaction and I am sure it can be hard if you are the only woman there with some guys. It is true though that some of these jobs demand levity and, let's face, most of the people in those jokes are usually not the sophisticated type. However, like I said, there are women who could compete with these guys and that kind of level of sophistication (or lack of). Trust me!

I agree also with a few posters that these jobs are much more demanding, dirty, and/or dangerous than most women's jobs. How many time does your back need some fixing when you are secretaries? Ok! There is carpal tunnel, but you get my drift. I don't think you can die from falling off a chair, can you? Lose a finger replacing the paper in the copier? And what about working in the cold or the heat, on a roof, as a roofer? Air con, anyone?

What really irks me though is some women expecting men after 8-10 hours of grueling work to do their share of work at home in the name of equality! Dear, should I mow the lawn for you, shop for you, read to the kids too, run you a bath too, too? Oh! Yes! Do tell me about all those problems at work. And, yes, I promise not to give you any answers to those because, hey, what would I do if I did not have to listen to those ... day in and day out? :)

I have fought wild fires

I have fought wild fires since 1989.some times the only female fire fighter on a fire and I very seldom have any difficultiy from the other fire fighters.Trying to find a contracter or trying to get help the fire centers can be a problem thu, then I need a male voice. I would like to work in other male work areas too , one that I have the safety indoc training for is hydro blasting, but they dont hire women. I have a brother working oil rigs, he wouldnt hire me either, women dont work on the rigs, he didnt say I couldnt do the work, just he wasnt hiring women.He will hire men my size who arent as strong as I am. So will hydro blasting. And then when I do see other females on male job sites, a fair amount of the time their are not pulling their own weight.

Some valid points here. The

Some valid points here. The most valid being: at a time when a majority of women are educated, and employable in "rewarding" careers, why the hell would they jump at an opportunity to hand-bomb lumber in the pissing rain, or crawl around in an attic? With a bunch of perverts on a 12-step programme no less.

That said, I work in the trades, and women are present as well as apprenticing in most of the less physical trades: electrical, plumbing, painting, finishing, automation/alarm, flooring — and there's bajillion female landscaper/gardeners out there. Graned, there's not nearly as many women as men in these trades, but the gender gap is probably on par with, say, the converse situation in something like nursing.

However, trades like framing, drywall, stucco, concrete finishing, roofing and so on will probably remain man work, on account of the physical demands, as well as the large crews with decidedly male cultural and social structures — and in all fairness, given marginalized nature of a lot of this work, its not really fair to force changes on structures that are often the most rewarding part of a demanding low-pay job.

I've worked in

I've worked in non-traditional jobs and have always gotten along just fine, probably because I was ready to adapt to the situation, didn't fuss about bruises, dirt, the guys' pinup babes or their occasional very foul language. Being a "good sport" goes far, no matter what your sex.

Women don't enter traditionally male trades for many reasons, and I honestly think discrimination or fear of feeling ou-of-place in a male-dominated workplace are becoming less of an issue. Physical strength needed for some of the jobs is an obvious drawback - I'm a big, tough female and yes, I've packed drywall, and no, I don't care what you'd pay me it's simply too hard and I physically just couldn't do it on any sort of a long-term basis.

Men burn out, too. Lots of male ex-construction workers with bad backs around retraining for more sedentary jobs.There's a reason it's the YOUNG guys pulling drill stem in the oil patch and shlepping bricks building those mega-homes on the coast. Older guys that don't invalid themselves out by their 40s-50s are smart; either they get it out of their system and move up in the job hierarchy or they learn to work smart (read: hire a young guy as a "helper" to do the grunt work.)

Saying women are afraid of getting dirty just makes me chuckle - notice that the majority of nurses (not to mention hotel chambermaids) are female. The thought of dealing on a daily basis with human blood, vomit, excrement and such make the oil and grease of a "non-traditional" job look pretty good to me.

I don't know if there is an answer to the shortage of women in trades and I really think it's a non-issue. As someone else pointed out, there's an overall shortage of MEN in the trades, too.

Probably the best bet to turn it around is to get into the high schools and put a lot more emphasis on trades training and pre-apprenticeship type programs. This is happening in a small way but it should be pushed a lot harder. Realistically all of our kids aren't going to be doctors and laewyers (just pulling these professions out of the air as a few needing long post-secondary educations) and we will always need mechanics and nail pounders and plumbers and oh, yeah, FARMERS (why the heck isn't agriculture being taught in every single school in this province - whoa - gotta find my soapbox for THAT one...)

It's not really about male/female roles - it's about societal hierarchy and what young people are being pushed into/groomed for by our educational system.

My opinion.

I love the outdoors, but...

"Why? Well, a lot of these jobs require a pretty large amount of physical toil. Young men aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed and they have a testosterone level that busts the meter so working like a draught animal is a scource of pride to them."- Says Working man

That was funny...
But yeah, as a woman I am here to give my opinion and it is this:
BORING!!! You could pay me $100/hr and I wouldn't do it. I'm physically pretty strong (though I'm pretty sure not strong enough to 'hand-bomb lumber'- haha- what the f*** is that??) but it sounds so deathly boring I could just cry right now thinking about it...

I could also count off, right now, the names of a dozen men I know who also wouldn't dream of such work.

Having said that, kudos to the men who do and stay safe!

That should have read...

"Kudos to the women and men who do, and stay safe!"

About getting dirty and staying dirty ...

I think the main differences between nurses and people in the trades (mostly men)is the length that one is dirty,... Nurses do not stay dirty all day long; they wash ASAP! BTW, I would think they would! Whereas, men in a lot of trades go to work at 8 am, get dirty at 8:01 and stay dirty (maybe) until lunch. After lunch, same deal as in the morning. I would think also that nurses (and doctors) are pretty careful around those fluids: gloves, masks,... BIG difference!

However, I don't think that would be so much of a deterrent to make women think twice about going in trades. I think the physical toil and huge dangers associated with those has to be right up there compare to the nice AC office!

hm

wow. a lot of assumptions here. has been my personal experience that both genders span the spectrum of danger/dirt acceptance and aptitude for sitting for eight hours a day in a "nice AC office."

somebody in the article mentioned that women have been labouring forever, they have. yes, men are usually stronger than women. but, there are many men who have never laboured and would wilt while a fit female hand bombed lumber, or what have you. would these non-labouring males make better construction workers than a labour-accustomed female? that women are generally afraid of day long dirtiness is, imo, ignorant of the many women who work in agricultural fields, or landscaping, or or or....

the reality is that in many of the more physical traditionally female jobs (like chambermaiding) the starting wage for these types of jobs is eight bucks, usually...most of the time these jobs peak at around fifteen bucks hourly.

yes, women are capable of being catty. men are capable of being doggish. is it possible that a very genteel woman would feel just as out of place on a jobsite as a roughneck guy would feel in an office. people are people.

subtle differences

One easy way to determine who works in the office and who does the dirty work can be observed at the (male) toilets, where office workers wash their hands AFTER they urinate, while "the workers" need to wash their hands before they even undo the fly!

When you meet a "worker" during his days off , you can recognize him by the hands and fingernails that are next to impossible to get perfectly clean!

The "worker" is the one who does not get 'pnone privileges during working hours, (never mind playing games on a computer.)

So, no wonder that females really are not jumping at the opportunity to get into male territory!

Rosie the Riveter

The photo image at the head of the article is mirror representation of the famous " Rosie the Riveter" poster. It was used in the early 40's to compell women to work in the trades - and work they did. They took over in the places of men at factories in a vast array of trade jobs while the men were overseas during the time.

An excellent documentary titled The Life and Times of Rosie the Riveter (1980) was produced by Connie Field, detailing the lives of five "Rosies" of the 40's. Well worth viewing this documentary.

Check your swagger at the door as well as your information there, "working man" buddy:

Kate Braid is a journeywoman carpenter who spent fifteen years in the contruction trades. Worked all aspects of the trade, including concrete (that includes rebar to you bud) and the whole nine yards. Very well respected in her trades work.

She also has written of her experiences. She knows of what she speaks.

job perception

Just remember, you can lead babes to the jobsite but you cant makem work... (jk)

Im going to risk sounding incredibly sexist by saying that allot of women just arnt compatible with physical labours and hardships asscociated with the trades. Dont get me wrong - I think women are as great and wonderful as the next person; but women are brought up in a different social context as men. They work and act and relate very differently to men. In a male dominated labour industry intergrating women without a substantial foundation of support is like throwing rocks to try and stop a river.

We have huge gender roles and percieved obligations in regard to sex and gender - im not shure that this problem is fixable by the unions/government/university.

How can it be fixed? Damned if i know.