Where are they?

Here is a clear violation of the rights of property. Where are our resident neocons on this one? Or is it OK to violate a person's property rights if it is done by the corporate state for the interests of the corporations?

Quote: The retired

"Of course, the deputy attorney-general or assistant deputy stopped the court case from going forward," Evans said. "But here's this older gentleman saying the rules that have existed for 800 years for private land owners -- not to stop business, but to have an input, to have some way to negotiate -- have been stripped."

That is very disturbing and corrupt how the AG or his Deputy could do this. I think a criminal investigation is needed and the AG must step down.

private property

private property, individual or corporate, is the most important right, and it should never be violated by anybody, including the majority for any reason.

however, i do not consider aboriginal land claims or what they call "traditional lands" to be ownership. The immediate area around where aboriginals live, and are actively using, sure. But the vast tracts of land they are are now getting is a complete farce.

a real crack ... ?

the cracks in the BCFiberal COALition are starting to show...

could this division between mining and surface rights form an actual battle-line?

too bad the current NonDP leader has shown herself to be totally out of her league, both on this subject and in the Legislature.

I suspect that the Greens could make great hay out of all of this...

Since real-estate is really the business of BC, this is a matter of great import to one and all. I see that the so-called mass media is really on the ball!

Surely you jest.

Campbell screwed the public again

There are some important facts that most people are overlooking as well...

- Well over 90% of this province is crown land.

Its bad enough that the Liberals have laxed mining standards in this province... and they have. And its bad enough that they've put this province up for sale and gutted government spending straight across the board, while cutting taxes to corps and the rich, getting directorships for the sales of public crowns and assets to their owners... and on and on. But for the 6 to 7% of the lands that are actually private in this province, does the Campbell government have to shit all over the rights of private landholders too?

Mabye I've missed something, here... isn't the government supposed to be fighting for the best interests of its people?

And some of these mines aren't clean, folks. Open acid atmoshperic systems as opposed to closed systems shouldn't even be contemplated in this province. Leave it to the Aussie's in exploited Africa.

And the waste. There are tailings of a good deal of mines that clearly contaminate water and ground water supplies. This isn't to say that all mines aren't feasable... but the low grade ones should be shelfed until there is no other choice. Ore with high concentrations of mercury (some coal deposits), arsenic, and lower concentrations of lead and U3 (Uranium also found in some coal deposits) should be far more seriously regulated than they have been in this province since Campbell showed up. And coalbed methane... this government is so lame...

Kevin Krueger, the minister of state for mining, is quoting stock investors now, like stock investors should be setting policy. He quips...

To quote stock investors like they should dictate mining policy reveals the smallness of this man's mind. Well, my stock portfolio has been 100% mining stocks for the last two years so perhaps my opinion counts to dickheads like Kevin. In my opinion, Kevin Krueger, our current minister of the environment, is nothing more than an ass kissing, moneygrubbing, low classed bum. And I'm being kind.

And the rest of this Campbell government can kiss both sides of my ass.

Lorne Mccuaig (PO'd BC resident)
Revelstoke, BC

access

Am I missing something here? I'm of the opinion that; it's numbing that this sort of trespass is contemplated, but surface accesss for development and mining would need to be negotiated with the surface land owner. They have to get their product out.
Thats the rub.
This story has legs. Keep it up Tyee.

murdock.....

Do you read hansard at all?

Between NDP incompetence (in

Between NDP incompetence (in and out of office) and the blatant corruption of these so-called "Liberals", BC is in real trouble. The beauty and resources of our wonderful province are being abused and squandered and the general population seems to accept it. Anarcho is correct to say, "Where are our resident neocons on this one?" Guys like Capitalism support the Bushes, Harpers and Campbells who simply support greed and avarice and nothing more. It's enough to make one throw up.

At the moment I'm working in Peru. It is saddening to watch what the mining industry is doing to this country. Because of wide spread corruption, aided and abetted by the mining industry, the yawning gap between rich and poor continues to grow. The profits that these companies are making are staggering, much of which leaves Peru. If some political miracle doesn't happen soon, the country will be left with little but environmental degradation. Anyone who thinks that BC is being treated differently and that the BC government is looking out for the long term interests of our province is delusional. To the mining industry, BC is nothing more than another banana republic to be exploited.

Unless British Columbians start using their heads and pressure their MLAs and MPs appropriately, we're screwed. (Maybe that's why the Campbell government is dumbing down the BC education system: to create a generation of ignorant voters).

(2) Clashing rights

Not sure why there isn't a happy medium here somewhere.

Given there is a demarcation between surface and subsurface rights: My understanding is that this issue has been in existence since BC was first colonized, and that mining was one of the main attractions that enticed people to move to and settle in BC.ie the resource base .

Once these mining rights were established, then what? The vision at the time was perhaps extract the resources and they didn't envision that this lowly colony of BC would amount to more than a hinterland to be continually exploited. (fish, lumber,coal, gold etc ). Hence the laws pertaining to resource (subsurface) rights were established long before any others.

However, BC began to grow and establish cities and towns, and NEW sets of laws dealing with those newer facets of a colony undergoing growing pains. Crown grants/ homesteading were established to attract more people with the hope of land (surface rights) ownership. Unless mistaken , the BC Gov't established powers for Local Gov'ts in 1906, long after BC became a Province, and after resource extraction was in high gear.

Unfortunately these two separate rights ie (i)surface rights and (ii) subsurface rights clash. One trumps the other due to the history of BC. Perhaps the lack of technology at the time formed the premise that valuable resources may exist under every square inch of BC, hence the subsurface rights reigned supreme.

To undo and unscramble this legal omelette of surface vs. subsurface rights is literally impossible. This is one facet many don't quite comprehend....in the "sins of the father" mode.Previous administrations set in motion policies , laws etc, whether they be wittingly or unwittingly, that later become albatrosses around the neck of subsequent Gov't administrations.That legacy continues today in many forms, and this subsurface rights issue is likely a prime example.

(Cont'd)

Inconsistencies, inconsistencies.

Property "is the most important right", says flatax, except when it comes to Aboriginal people. This attitude is a little inconsistent, no?

bob the cat.....The gold

bob the cat.....The gold mine is planned for the Chilcotin by Taseko mines and wants to fill up Fish lake.

We, the landowners, are now breaking the law by planting gardens, trees and our cattle are eating grass grown by the minerals in the soil that belongs to somebody else.

In short, land ownership now means absolutely nothing.

A typical example of capitalist bolshevism.

And what do we get out of this great mining hysteria? Sweet b.a.

We have a long line of trucks, overloaded with copper ore from the Polley Mtn. mine breaking up and ruining our roads, each load worth about $500,000.

What BC gets are some jobs, some taxes and royalties. The rest of the benefits go abroad, but counts as our GDP. There isn't a single facility in BC that could use our own real capital for the benefit of our own people.

Some Japanese bank "created" the money for the capital, inflating our money supply temporarily with imaginary money which gave the power to this company to come and take our real capital, leaving some environmental destruction and big holes behind.

But it is all GDP, Growth and Productivity in the weirdo imagination of our economists and politicians.

Ed Deak.

(2) Clashing Rights .....Cont'd

However, I don't see why those in possession of surface rights have to be jerked around. Land in the interior where much of these clashes occur is not that expensive, so why can't they simply be bought out at a mutually agreeable price, perhaps under quasi-expropriation laws guidelines (which can be quite generous)and/or given a piece of the action ie shares and royalties ?

Perhaps even have a covenant that the surface rights owner has the first option to purchase the property back after it has undergone remediation. In the scheme of things and given the often huge capital costs of establishing mines, one would think these costs of doing business with surface rights owners would be a drop in the bucket.

Given my "Can't undo the omelette" , then maybe create a new legal omelette recipe, add to the existing laws, policies provisions, etc. vs. the often greater legal mess of extinguishing them etc.

When the NDP were in power, they had a chance to look at this issue, but in my view the NDP have traditionally scared off mining , but not actually prevented mining. Thus, the NDP took the typically NDP lazy "status -quo" way out versus something Pro-Active and pragmatic.

The fact that these clashes exist between surface rights and subsurface rights is very often due to such factors as the economic climate shows that in a cost benefit analysis its basically a "GO" for mining. If the economy changes, then it may stop...BUT the important point is the same potential still exists regardless unless this is changed.The ON/OFF catalyst to "mine it" or "not mine it" is economic viability pure and simple, given the existing laws.

Solution:
Bridge the gap so both sides(surface and subsurface stakeholders) are happy,in mutual agreement and consensus, including First Nations groups , ....THAT shows LEADERSHIP. The other issues, ie environment etc. have their own sets of laws etc. to add to this analogized legal "Big Picture" omelette.

This type of clash, which shows signs of continuing and getting worse, is preventable in my view( which is far better than a cure, which can be far costlier).

How do you define "surface

How do you define "surface rights" ?

How far down do they go?

Are landowners permitted to dig or drill wells, foundatons, or any hole, without intefering with the property rights of the multinational corporate mafia ?

How about gardens, or alfalfa that has deep roots? Are we supposed to pay royalties to the mine owners in the USA, or Germany, or China?

All the NDP has done was trying to make miners act responsively and with the least destruction, which has now turned into a free for all, even the workers, who make their living in these huge, disgusting, open pit mines complain about....in private, protecting their jobs.

In any case, the export of resources is not an income, but the sale of capital, all business theories warn against, therefore of no benefit to society.

Yes, let's have mining, but strictly controlled, with the resources processed here and then "traded", not "sold for profits", for goods and resources we do not have.

I bought a pair of rubber boots the other day and when I looked I just about had a heart attack.....they were Made in Canada.

I'm still in shock! Something made in Canada?

Ed Deak.

Were they decent boots Ed?

If they're made in Canada and they look as if they won't leak and will stand up to hard usage for more than a year I might be in the market for a new pair.

A suggestion

By the way, I urge anyone who hasn't already done so to look at the video referred to as Chief Wayne Christian addressing thr run of rivers issue.

http://ourrivers.ca/

The link is posted on the 'We weren't supposed to survive story' but the issues discussed in the video do not just impact First Nations people - they impact us all.

Well worth the time it takes to listen and watch. Quicktime req'd.

Gary...

no

like many other people I have so many other things to do ... reading the political theatrics is really low on my list.

April Fool's?

I thought this had to be an April Fool's joke, but then I remembered we're talking about Mr. Campbell and his band of Merry Men, here.

What is happening should not be allowed, period, and I don't care how much money the mining industry is lining the government's pockets with. As for Kreuger, I am in 100% agreement with the writer above- the man is an obsequious sycophant, plain and simple. What the hell is wrong with these people that care and concern for the regular citizenry is cancelled out by the smell of a buck?

The title of this story is very fitting. I suppose ultimately (and sadly) a revolt is exactly what it may take to change this.

BC

You have forgotten the most important item. This is a government of the Lower mainland where the votes are.After all you just have to listen to Mike the Liberal Cheerleader or Bill Boring to know what is important. Disaster In B.C.

Day 1. A major wind storm devastated most of Vancouver Island today. Trees down , Roads closed and Power Outages. Not a problem. Temperature about freezing. Premier on extended Holiday in HAWAII. No response from the government. No photo ops.

Day 2. Wind and Blizzard conditions in Interior of B.C. Temp. down to minus 20 degrees C. Trees down, Power outages and Roads unplowed and closed. No problem they’re used to this it’s the Interior. No response from the government about snow removal. No photo ops as Premier still on extended Holiday in HAWAII .

Day 3. The wind storm hits Vancouver. Blows down Trees in Stanley Park. Snow Hits Lower Mainland and Snow Removal on Highways is Non existent. No government Response.

Day 4. Morning Talk show deplores Snow removal in Fraser Valley Highways. Starts Telethon to repair Stanley Park as this is a Major Disaster. Wonders where Government Ministers are. Premier misses announcement of Major disaster in Stanley Park as he is still on Extended Holiday in HAWAII. No word from B.C. Government. New Federal Environment Minister sees Photo op and tours Park. Says Money available to fix park.

Day 5. Premier returns from holiday. Says just a City Park. No Problem.

Day 6. Premier discovers that Radio Hosts have declared The Jewel Of B.C. Stanley Park a major disaster. Once he discovers this he tours park . Great Photo Op . Funds available to fix Park. Hides saying its only a City Park. Wow will B.C. recover from such a Disaster.

Day 7. Roof deflates on B.C. Place. Premier says Province will look into turning it into Condo’s

April Fools Joke on Tyee Readers?

Is this an April Fools joke? What a laugh to see a socialist rag like the Tyee, and a socialist politician who worked hard to destroy the mining industry, pretend to defend "property rights". Isn't this the same crowd that don't want property rights enshrined in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

Fact is that minerals below the ground have always belonged to the Crown. (or to "the People" as you socialists say). Prospectors have to have the right to go look for them. When they find them and mine them, they pay the Crown ("the People") a royalty.

The process designed by the government to alleviate disputes between the owners of the surface rights, and those exploring below, makes sense. End of story.

Someone else needing PoliSci 101

Martin, it is quite evident that you do not understand the difference between "social democrat" and "socialist". The Tyee and the NDP are both social democratic. The NDP has never been a socialist party, though it's predecessor, the CCF was up til 1956. Perhaps you should take a few lower level political science courses before you attempt to comment about the left. At the minimum, look up these terms in Wikipedia. It is always good to have a little basic knowledge about a subject before writing about it, otherwise you end up looking foolish.

OK Martin, istead of hot air

OK Martin, istead of hot air ideological crap, how about defining surface, as opposed to subsurface rights ?

Is my well an intrusion into the property of others? On the other hand, are landowners entitled to stop the owners of "subsurface rights" intering and touching the surface?

Ed Deak.

Surface rights

My understanding, based on what someone posted once before on the TYEE , is subsurface rights exist or have a demarcation approx. 6-10 below the surface.

However,it is also dependent on what material is actually below.. .one may have certain geological material that may actually be worthless, or not qualify for subsurface mining -claim staking,and thus protect the landowner.

The Fraser River potential flooding issue brough another facet of minerals and royalties, it was reported in a recent VANCOUVER PROVINCE issue. I'll discuss it later.

Privatising BC rivers

Here's another video link, further to the topic of privatization of our BC rivers for private power generation. It's a presentation by adjunct Professor John Calvert of Simon Fraser University.

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G. West - re: Chief Wayne Christian video

Further to your comment on our Save Our Rivers website (http://saveourrivers.ca/) and the very compelling video http://ourrivers.ca/Mar27video.html of Spatsin First Nation Chief Wayne Christian's comments, please note that the video you refer to automatically provides either a Mac (QuickTime) version or Window Media version. It's not just a QuickTime player version. The link will automatically deliver the optimal video format for your computer.

The video link automatically accomodates viewers whether they are on a dial-up modem internet connection or if connecting via broadband.

Anyone on any type of internet connection, right across BC (or the Country) can view this.

In your case, you probably were either viewing it on a Mac (OS X), or, via Windows, on a browser other than Internet Explorer browser (Firefox).

The Fraser Inst. have

The Fraser Inst. have published a book about 20 years ago, under the authorship of Arnold Block, who was then some kind of a bigwig with that advertising agency, advocating the sale of all Crown lands, of all rivers and lakes.

Block was on CBC radio and TV at the time, suggesting that he would also divide and sell all the seas and oceans, if there was a way, as a "conservation measure", quoting Adam Smith's "self interest and invisible hand" theory.

Which has been fraudulently misquoted and misused by neoclassical economists, to legalize theft and robbery and the establishment of a ruling class.

Ed Deak.

SaveOurRivers

Thanks for that, it opened as a Quicktime file for me, but a couple of people to whom I passed it on have had some trouble getting it to open.

I really appreciate your note and I'll pass on the information to them. I actually am part of a fairly extensive distribution network so the infomation is valuable - and thanks again.

Ed

There's a big movement to promote the same thing in the States. One of the main guys in volved is an academic from Montana who is also a Fellow of the Hoover and Cato Institues. His name is Terry L Anderson and he's often quoted by the folks from the Canadian Taxpayers federation.

I have a link somewhere to one of his Cato Institue papers

here it is:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa363.pdf

An Alternative

There are obvious problems to privatization of Crown Lands. I don't have to go into that here. But the status quo is also problematic. All this land and wealth remains in the hands of a few corrupt politicians who, historically have given it away to their corporate friends. There is a third possibility, much used in parts of Europe, which is to make these lands subject to the control/ownership of the local community. Of course, we have seen our towns and cities devestated by developer interests, so decentralized control is not a panacea. But the proviso that any major use or sale has to be approved by a two-thirds majority of the residents, whould tend to undercut this form of corruption.

valid points anarcho - but -

The most pressing need in this country and province right now, and something that would inject more vitality and citizen involvement and a whole new level of responsibility and public consciousness in the mind of elected governments is proportional representation.

The current wholesale surrender of the commons - both crown land, ALR lands and rivers of the province (including their energy generating potential) - to special interests (many of them American and/or foreign) connected to political elites like the business cartels that run the BC Liberals is tantamount to a criminal sell off of the future of this province.

I don't think the vast majority of British Columbians want the public's future potential turned into nothing more than private assets in the hands of a few of Gordon Campbell's friends.

Constitution

Proportional representation will never alone solve the present arbitrary governance scenario that is being "expressed" by this particular administration. This is an extreme expression of a deeper flaw of ethics and law in the provincial governanace structure.

This is an example of a group of individuals who appear to believe that it is a simple "right", an "entitlement" of governance to arbitrarily "author laws" as wished (Bill 30 for example) - without an explicit (and accountable and nullifiable) mandate, nor with any plebiscite - nor even public discussion in the pulbic legislature - on matters of the commons: public institutions, public lands, public waterways.

It is like "fee simple" ownership of the people. We own you. Now shut up.

Mere "recall" is a circle game. It will fail (in its present form), because it will miss a broader, if deeper mark.

We have no Constitution in BC, to which we we appear to be able to effectively hold any administration to account. Including this one. This adminstration knows this. Or rather, it believes this.

These are blatant attacks on the fundamental rights of the citizenry, Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, to which any representative administration is supposed to be at service to. There are no exceptions permitted.

There is a word for the act of individuals who act against the inate right and authority of the commons.

CHris Bouris

It's clearly not all that's needed, but it would be a start and a foundation upon which something better could be built. In addition, it might just be achievable, given the right circumstances.

I'd say that the proper way to start would be with a constituent assembly. However, I think the push for electoral reform may have a chance of succeeding even without that coming to pass: Clearly, until the stranglehold of party politics, business sponsorship and lobbying is broken we are in deep trouble.

Now the only hope we have is the courts and that is a faint hope indeed. We are being governed by traitors - of that there is no doubt.

The truth about run of river

Quote:

Here's another video link, further to the topic of privatization of our BC rivers for private power generation.

Response:

BC hydro cannot build any coal generating plants in bc because of public pressure about global warming. So they have to resort to crap like privatly built run of river. However, this is expensive power. we will all be paying higher electricity rates in a few years because of the "global warming" fad. It is to satisfy the enviros that this run of river is happening.

Let's not forget people, and keep it in perspective, only 10,000 years ago vancouver was under 2 km of ice.

"Aboriginal land" note:

It is not an inconsistency to say private property is the most important right and leave the Aboriginals out of land claims.

I personally believe they did not own their land in the past, they lived on small portions of it, but did not have a concept of "land ownership". We gave them the concept of land ownership along with everything else. The fact that they claim the land as their own is the very reason they should not get it. Nothing more said.

As an aside, they have betrayed their own precious ancestors in those bogus burial grounds, that apparantly make up most of BC, by claiming what their ancesors would have said nobody could claim.

And back to topic of mineral claims, the mining companies know how to use the aboriginals to help get the permits. The aboriginals now tell the enviros to go to hell since they have finally figured out who has the money and the jobs (the mining companies). So they may winge a little about a lake here an there to try and get sympathy money or a land claim from the government, but they know the real cash will be coming in from the mining company. It's called playing both sides of the fence.

The enviros have moved on to greener pastures, like Romania. See the movie "mine your own business", what an eye opener into the twisted logic and selfisheness of the enviros.

Privatising BC rivers - correct video links

Here's another video link, further to the topic of privatization of our BC rivers for private power generation. It's a presentation by adjunct

Professor John Calvert of Simon Fraser University.

Viewing Tip: Once the video begins, you can click on the "scrollable" table of contents chapter index (works exactly like a "scenes" menu in a DVD).
This clickable index is just underneath the video player.

The video will then jump to that point in the presentation.

(If you've got "Flash" player loaded and enabled, you can also navigate via "clicking" on the moving "timeline" at the bottom of the presentation screen.)

Here's the links.
(Note: the hyperlink address strings that are visible on this web page here are *not* the full address shown, but they will work here, if you click on

a link here. If you want to send these links to others, privately, then please remember to copy the *full* shortcut address path.)

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Click Here to play

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(multi-bandwidth supported):
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Click Here to play

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(broadband only):
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Click Here to play

Rivers and " river mining"

In last week's VANCOUVER PROVINCE, the issue of flooding and dykes was discussed, in the context of the potential flooding from record snow packs which will undergo the spring thaw soon.

The discussion revolves around 2 options...(i) higher dykes or (ii) dredge the river so more water can be moved. Logic would seem to dictate that dredging the river is more practical...so that it has greater capacity to handle the water. Dyking has a limit...how high can one build up a dyke before other factors kick in?

A local dredging contractor was interviewed and he stated he couldn't understand why the dredging option wasn't pursued. Fisheries seems to again have its nose in this, yet his companies method of dredging has been approved in the US by the EPA. He stated he would dredge and remove the sand for free/no cost to the public, and could begin almost immediately. He felt he could sell the sand to local contractors and thus this would be a Win - Win situation.

HOWEVER,...The Kicker was that the Gov't considers the dredged material a "mineral" , a "mined resource commodity", and thus the Gov't, being the owner of such " river sand " wants mining royalties $$$ for any mined = dredged sand.

So, while potential floods beckon, we get typical Gov't Catch 22 gridlock..a dysfunctional Fisheries Dept. and a Gov't that can't negotiate a Win -Win situation. It makes no sense, even for Gov't. It almost seems like a co-ordinated effort to stop the most logical solution.

Flattax: re "Mine Your Own Business"

Thanks for the mention of the documentary " Mine your Own Business ", by Phelim McAleer.

I checked out what I could about it.
Very interesting...I hope to see it soon.

Its high- time the environmental movement received far more scrutiny, and this movie exposes many NEGATIVE facets of it.

Peter Suderman article in the National Review is quite good (sorry the "links" don't work...do a search for " MINE YOUR OWN BUSINESS " and read his article.

It's high time that the environmental movement has its own tell-all/bare- all expose', and create some balance to the Michael Moore types out there.

Apparently Moore himself has a movie/documentary expose' about him titled " Manufacturing Dissent", which was originally meant to put Moore in a good light, but the filmmakers became somewhat disillusioned and jaded with Moore and his schtick once they actually got going in the production .

Enviros and Fraser Flooding

Michael Moore is a bit of a joke. I have seen a few of his movies and they get more and more painful to watch. He should have stopped after Rodger and Me.

Enviros go for high profile things that get themselves attention, but really do not help the environment much. For example, here on the north shore, there are countles groups for sustainability (a term i just detest) and other useless causes like co2 emissions, but meanwhile, all the raw sewage from north and west Van just gets dumped into the ocean untreated. It just is not a popular trendy cause.

The government is making excuses about dredging the fraser. They don't want to spend the money since it is not olympic related. And they probably do not own real estate in Richmond.

Back to topic: As smokey the bear says, Strip mining prevents forest fires!

TILMA

Happy TILMA Day!

Don't be fooled

To me this is a be careful what you wish for topic. Currently the vast majority of all sub-surface rights are owned by the crown (us) Exploration companies that claim the sub surface rights are really only getting a license to extract the natural resource and in exchange pay the crown (us) royalties for doing so. Let’s not forget our generous recent public sector bonus settlements were in part made possible by surplus crown royalties from Natrual gas sales.

Let’s suppose for a moment that we decided that private property owners got control over what went on with sub-surface rights beneath their properties what do you think would happen?

a) Property owners would either say NO to resource extraction on their properties thereby depriving the crown (us) of much needed revenues

Or

b) they would sell the property to big corporations or get other amount of huge money – that would be money they would personally get instead of the crown(us)

To me the current system favors the interests of the crown over the individual property owner, exactly as it should. Would we rather Campbell sold out the crown’s interest in favor of these wealthy individual property owners ? I for one would not be.

To me this issue is about wealthy individual property owners trying to put their own personal interests ahead of our interests (the crown) I can’t believe that anyone would be tricked into seeing this any other way.

Privatizing BC HYdro links finally working!

Here's another video link, further to the topic of privatization of our BC rivers for private power generation. It's a presentation by adjunct

Professor John Calvert of Simon Fraser University.

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Flattax

I wish you right wingers would all get your stories straight. Here you trot forward your personal pov and offer this:

While members of the Canadian Taxpayers federation quote Terry L Anderson and say this:

In the final analysis your neanderthal ideas about the importance of protecting property rights while human rights go begging is almost too pathetic for words.

But for now, why don't you and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation fight it out among yourselves - wasting any further time debating the subject with someone possessed of your kinds of attitude is pointless. You can't see the forest for the trees from behind that wall you've erected around your compound in West Vancouver.

Coincidence? or......

It is Sunday

....And HE ...."G" has spoken

But it is also APRIL FOOL's DAY, ain't it?

Respectful posting and lack thereof

One is, as one describes others. Draw your inferences accordingly.

Realisticman: Happy TILMA day as well

However....

How come the sun still came up, weatehr is the same (hey the climate "changed" overnite...) my news paper was delivered on time by a private contractor, G West was still able to post on the TYEE without being censored by Alciabides...???...etc. etc.

......oh AHA !!! the Canucks LOST to the Calgary Flames last night. Alberta connection ?!

I GET IT !!!

switek, you must be a

switek, you must be a citibred, ignorant, hot air artist.

Yes, there are wealthy property owners: The agribiz corporations and the overpaid professionals, like doctors, lawyers, investors, who're buying up the lands of ranchers who are going broke, waiting for the elimination of the ALR, so they can subdivide and sell out to foreigners. As it is going on in the EU, or in Mexico under the NAFTA, with millions of farmers ruined and forced into mega city slums.

The surviving ranchers and farmers are barely hanging on, losing money, or working for nothing, with the depressed prices of farm products controlled by a few multinatinal corporations, while socking it to the public, raising food costs every week.

We have around here ranchers sitting on large lands, theoretically worth millions, who're existing way below the poverty line, without a pot to piss in, barely surviving, while the corporations in control of the food supplies are raking in huge profits.

We only have a few head of cattle, as a matter of conscience for food production, but we have to subsidize every pure, organic calf we sell from our old age pensions, as there's no market for them, while the stores are charging up to $20/lb and more.

This is your "free, globalized market economy", controlled by a few multinational crooks.

Last year we sold 2 beautiful, healthy, pregnant cows, 4 and 5 years old, for $285. each.

Each of those cows, inclunding the calves, had at least $2000.worth of meat in them.

So much for "wealthy land owners". So, why are we doing it? Because we'd rather be dead than live in a city and look at it as the rent we have to pay for our good life.
But how long before all lands are collectivized into the hands of a a few bolshevik multinationals?

So, does this mean that we farmers and ranchers have no human and property rights ?

In any case, only a small part and percentage of mining is any kind of income and economic benefit, cancelled out by the unaccounted liabilities.

In short, counting mining as part of the GDP is just another fraud.

Ed Deak.

Stanley Park, tomorrow, Early!

Hey, maestro, I hear that some Alberta cowboys are going to be some of the first to utilize TILMA and do some wildcat staking in Staley Park, first thing in the morning.

After lunch the plans for a new Oil Refinery on Salt Spring Island will be shown.

The End is Nigh.

Ed/Fiat Lux Re ALR

I am curious of the ALR and ALC Acts' provisions act as prevention from exploitation of subsurface mining etc. on any/all land within the ALR.

Ie if one has ALR Land, does the ALR and ALC Act now act as as an absolute exemption / prevention for any party or parties wishing to stake a subsurface rights/mining claim ?

If it does, maybe these ranchers etc. currently concerned with this potential best apply for ALR INclusion, which they are currently able to do, if they aren't included within the ALR already. Not all are.

realisticman: Re Lord Stanleys Park= $$$$$

Yeah..RIGHT ON BROTHER !!!

Sure we all have pleasant memories of the smell of Monkey poop,and popcorn in that 1000 acre parcel , but time to move forward.

I already posted this that the whole damn park is First Nations land...more evidence of this FACT than almost any other piece of BC dirt..give it back to the First Nations.

First allow them a mega density 100 storey buildings, the whole 1000 acres is worth billions. Quit jerking around the First Nations groups, Vancouver...you are ALL creme de la cremes ,your uppity Vancouver tribe runs from Point Grey to Boundary Rd... Fraser River to Burrard Inlet.

Once you clean up the smell of monkey poop and popcorn...and open season on those Canada Geese who take over Lost Lagoon......Give it back to the First Nations aka original owners, you racist scum de la cremes. You've jerked around the Musqueam etc. for years golfing on thier land and demanding cheap rent.....and screwing the rest of BC as well.

TILMA Stanly Park in a First Nations joint venture. That's looonngg overdue and fair, if you understand what F-A-I-R is you bloody uppity freeloaders.

An old scam, not just done to FN's

I am sure no anthropologist would agree. All non-nomadic peoples have territories which they controlthat are larger than their immediate village sites and gardens. These usually comprised things like watersheds, fishing and hunting grounds, sacred sites, mineral resources, trade routes and forests, as well as buffer zones with other peoples. To pretend otherwise is to engage in the sort of rank hypocrisy and apology for crime found with pseudo-liberians and neocons. Besides, some bandit claiming the peasant's commons is one of the oldest scams going.

Ownership?

The global concept of ownership should perhaps start from the premise we all ultimately " rent" , regardless of the culture, creed, race, etc. etc.

What is " ownership" really ? , and what is also a more common ground or consistent application that also respects these many global differences as well?

More later .

Unless the ownership is corporate

Corporations, unlike humans, possess the advantage over their human creators; the corporate entity has unlimited life..the concept of ownership as "rent" has no credibility or value in the business sense.

Which is simply another reason why the idea of 'vested' property rights are a problem in relation to 'human' rights - which in an equitable and decent culture - and above all a democratic society - must almost always take precedence.

The conflict between competing rights and interests, which will, in complex social and economic relationships, often be a problem, simply underlies the need, nay necessity, for an independent judiciary and a justice system free of political influence.

There are times when the majority in a democracy may have to limit the property 'rights' of an individual or corporation but this should never happen without due recourse to the courts and provision for fair compensation.

That, at bottom, is what democracy is (or ought to be) all about. Here in BC it isn't any more.

Switek????????????????????

You assume, and ever so falsely, that the "crown" is currently acting on behalf of this provinces best interests. Have you yet to clue into the reality that this Campbell government's interests and U.S. multinational corps are now one and the same... to facilitate the U.S. ownership of this province and country?

And I'll remind you that the crown already owns 94% of this provinces land. Does the crown really need to own the other 6% that's private?

What is private ownership of land if it means having no ability to be responsible for it when governments and corporations are not?

What is the largest "farm" or "ranch" in BC anyways... 6 quarter sections? Maybe 7? I doubt if more than a handful of ranches over 2 sections exist in this province... and what did it get ranchers who spent their lives there in value, except for the last 3 years of inflated land values... and suddenly every single owner of land is going to sell because they can flip it for $$$$? Is this what life is all about? Money?

As it now stands, corporations can pretty much do whatever they want underneath the surface of private lands... that I'll remind you, only make 6% of this province. And I'll remind you that the majority of mines of any size or scale have localized environmental risks or hazards to the immediate soils and water. And I'll remind you that when it happens in private land, it is usually where people live!!!

Who lives 200 miles North of Jasper? Who lives 100 miles west of Golden? Who lives 300 miles North of Vancouver? Few if any. But where there are private lands, generally, people live there. Get it?

So if gentlemen like yourself want to live next to a mine where corporations force and tell everyone under the sun what to do or not, then keep voting for the Campbells of the world.

Yah, we've imagined what we wished for... its what we once had, and its certainly a hell of a lot better than what we've got now.

I don't know where to begin with guys like this who view environmentalists as mere one causers working on already lost causes... sad, really.

People have rights, corporations shouldn't.

Obviously we must abolish the absurd notion that a corporation has the rights of a human being - the corporation known as a "fititious person." Only living human beings should have rights. If the NDP were not such a spineless, wishy-washy outfit they would jump on this.

I'm not aware of any

I'm not aware of any provisions against mining in the ALR and many and most landowners would probably welcome the elimination of it so land prices could go sky high and they could sell out and become rich.

Even as it is, young people have no hope in hell to get into farming and ranching in Canada. They can't afford the land prices, controlled by "foreign investment" and can't make a living with agriculture, again on account of foreign control of the economy.

As far the size of ranches in BC are concerned, there are many with tens of thousands of acres, like Douglas Lake and Alkali Lake etc. A lot of people around here have betwen 1-2000 acres with hundreds of heads of cattle, worth next to nothing, while the supermarket prices are rising every week, because the prices are controlled by a few feedlot corporations.

Ed Deak.

Surprises me, Ed

Looking at the MLS lands for sale in this province, it looked as though most farms and ranches were small in BC. I know some larger head Ranches exist in the North around the 2,500 to 5,000 acre mark but beyond that, most ranches are much smaller in BC, far less than 2,000 acres for sure and not much over a 1,000 in the south.

Beyond that, large privately owned ranch's are not the norm in this province in the overall. And why? The stats speak for themselves.

http://www.empr.gov.bc.ca/private_title/default.htm

This isn't Sask or BC where close to the entire south of both provinces are privately owned.

Orchards? 200 acres would be considered huge and alot of work by anyones standards. Very few 200 acre plus orchards in this province. Farms? Not many over 1,000 acres to be sure and a good chunk of it is hay for livestock. the growing seasons just aren't enviable, the terrain, especially up North. Shorter growing seasons... so the privately logged lands become ranches. And again, the stat's speak for themselves.

More to the point

http://www.abcfp.ca/practice_development/continuing_education/Documents/RefGuide06-Ch1.pdf

According to 14 of this website, 5% of the 6% lands that are privately owned are forested. And of that 5% considered to be forest land, the large majority of it has already been logged or select logged and turned into ranch lands. The money a good deal of ranchers do have, have come from logging their lands, not ranching.

From an environmental point of view, private ownership of lands, it could be argued, beats the present rate of logging or logged lands over the percentages of logged crown land in BC. Hence, it could be argued that privatization of BC's forestland or crown lands isn't the way to manage forests for the sake of our environments. Its a proven historical fact that the firm majority of most private land ends up logged. Neither did the majority of ranchers/loggers didn't complain to much when they signed access rights to mining companies and oil companies who were more willing and legally required to pay ranchers for access to surface lands which brings me back to an even larger, once again, far more important point.

Why is it that private landowners have less surface rights to dis-allow mineral access than mulinationals under Campbell than they used to have? Or more to the point, why is it so necessary to develope mines, waste and coal bed methane projects in more densely populated area's than what the crown currently owns?

The government already has 94% of the crown lands with no voice but their own to stop miners and oilmen from mining and drilling. And the private land owners of another approx. 4% were willing to roll over for some extra money. So why did this Campbell government have to rob the remaining 2% of private lands in this province that were willing to say no to developement out of principle and smarts?

Thats what blows my mind, here. Its a lousy 2% of the province that is saying, "you can't wreck this land"!

My God, Campbell has to sell the whole thing.

:-(

With a government so eager to abolish government spending and responsiblities to the tax payer and at the same time relinquish the rights of BC land owners, when will the time come when they sell crown land to foreign corporations outright and be done with it?

Because there is no longer a need. Its already happened, when they reduced private landowner rights of surface access to a pile of ashes.

Everyone knows that for .17 to .25 cents an acre foreign mining corporations own the right to mine here anyways without a crown procecuter or private land owner who can stop them... private land rights mean nothing now... the ones who own private land and are actually trying to stop development because they are ideologically more stewards than owners, just had those rights stripped away.

Concept of " ownership"

With respect to First Nations, this is an interesting concept . I doubt that the First Nations had a formal registration ala Land Titles of X land belongs to Y First Nations group. From what is occuring, it seems that it is a hybrid of Y First Nations group claims a territory for communal use by members of their own group. In fact, the Treaty Negotiations teams have defined the Musqueam groups territory.

By establishing a territory , wouldn't this be more a First Nations version of a Mexican standoff ?...quasi -gun boat diplomacy..." leave our area alone and we'll leave yours alone" , perhaps a First Nations version of the Cold War. Otherwise, they are continually at war and may wipe each other out. This seems to be the ownership model the First Nations groups maintain to this day.

Other versions of ownership become more individualistic, but perhaps concurrently evolved with progress. The more the Industrial Revolution evolved, one no longer depended on say 100 acre parcels to sustain oneself...a small City lot would suffice, thus this version of ownership evolved. Such ownership then lead to far greater demand for good and services.

However with subsurface rights, the "we don't own , we rent ....NEXT !!! " applies ...ironically only owning the top surface portions and not "the foundation" or subsurface really undermines this ownership concept. Perhaps the Charter did not entrench Property rights because it would create a legal mess with such things as the existing subsurface rights.

Hence,...Perhaps we exist more in sync with the First Nations model..we ALL own it all communally, at the discretion of Gov't = all of us... no one single individual or group does.

Ownership entails finality and certainty, and in my view that doesn't actually exist nor ultimately exist. Maybe we are simply empowered renters...along the lines of the Residential Tenancy Act.

In the 50's the farmers made

In the 50's the farmers made money buy selling their products, grain, eggs, milk, pigs, cattle and whatever else earned them an honest dollar. But government backed boards, and corporations slowly put them out of 'business' by regulations the farmer could not ever meet. Eggs? Ooh can't have an unregulated farmers selling eggs to the local creamery for sale in the city. Salmonela you know. But when did Salmonela really start being a problem? It began with battery hens in 'corporate' controlled businesses. ( Same with e-coli in cattle by the way - it's a disease of 'battery' businesses where cattle live in their own mountains of shit.) Oh can't have the farmer selling cream anymore unless he puts in a multithousand dollar cooling storage system. No milk cows - no pigs -no revenue. The Cream/Egg money sustained the towns small businesses which are now going,g oing and in many cases gone. Today the farmer ships three loads of grain to the local 'corporation' and the money for two loads go to the corp. and one for the farmer. Meanwhile the city folks have their heads in the sand while 'you know who' is picking their pockets and purses along with generous subsidization from the their elected cronies.

At least the holders of

At least the holders of marketing board licences are surviving. This is why the Harpo govt. wants to to away with them, so they can be controlled, killed and taken over by the multinational mafia.

In the cattle industry, we're at the mercy of the conspiracy by multinational feedlots to keep our prices down, so the corporate mafia can take over the lands.

We have about 60 chickens, on a half acre, heavily bushed yard, living happy, free, family lives, with a well insulated and heated house, and sell our eggs privately to friends. At $3/doz we make more from those eggs than from the sale of 10 organic calves, or their meat processed in a government inspected facility.

This is what's called "free enterprise, globalized market economy", with people starving to death by the millions.

Ed Deak.

"Mine your own business"

Isn't using a politically motivated film as an argument the equivalent of someone on the left using Mike Moore's Fahrenheit film as a foreign-policy argument?

What's next? Quoting Oscar the Grouch?

The loony Right, I'm looking at Martin, seem to want to grab on to any straw they can in order to ignore environmental issues. Give it a rest, you'll only paint yourself into a corner and history will pass you by.

Every thinking person is an "environmentalist", you have to be. Maybe we aren't all concerned with the environment to the same degree but as long as you're even somewhat concerned then you too are an "environmentalist".

Thank you, Ed

Thank you, Ed Deak.

Seething with rage and trying to formulate coherant rebuttals to some of the outrageous comments made on the thread above has left me (just about) speechless.

Mr. Deak is bang on. I'm sure he speaks for many of us rural people on this topic.

Sadly this is far from being an April Fool's topic. Wish it was.

You arrogant city-dwellers really have no clue, do you? (You must be urban people - if you lived anywhere close to the land you'd understand the issues much better.)

What is at stake here involves much more than mere money.

"Oh, land in the interior ain't worth much anyway. Just buy 'em out & dig it all up."

Ouch. Thanks, guys.

Hope you're all vegetarians eating tofu made from off-shore soybeans. If there was any divine justice you'd choke on your next steak. Hamburger. Glass of milk. BC blueberry muffin.

The mineral rights to our farm are already claimed by a gold miner. Luckily he has found nothing of particular value in his test holes, but these were made some years ago when cultivated land was still protected from being disturbed by mining activity, and when landowners could still legally control access.

We're at the mercy of a prospector's whim, now. Very nasty feeling.

Needless to say we are not feeling particularily secure down on the farm these days when mining is the topic. Another nail in BC's agricultural coffin.

Why go on? Literally.

Frank ....Frank... Frank

Tsk Tsk Tsk...

Are you asking us or telling us?

Labels ,...Labulls ,...LayBS

Why do "youse peeples" (Notice I didn't use the "L" word...YET ) think you have the monopoly on the environment and the concern for it? Excuse me for a second while I throw another set of car tires on the fire and pour more used 10 W30 oil down the sewer. Yeesshhh !!!

What is "natural" vs " minimizing the impact on what is natural" ?

Hmm...I think I will give Dr Dave S. a call, if he ain't driving across Canada in a 40 ft. diesel bus and buying carbon credits to cancel out the impact ???

OR "Here Kyoto...nice doggie"...BTW careful the neo-con pet food you eat these days.

Re Michael Moore:
I caught an interview recently on the radio (while out driving an internal combustion vehicle which coincidentally requires 4 tires + a spare and 10W30 oil...oh no !!!) by the filmmakers who have created the " Manufacturing Dissent " documentary about Moore.

The film-makers stated they went into the project as Michael Moore fans...but his less than accomodating attitude and lack of co-operation left them rather jaded. Apparently, via the aforementioned interview I heard on the radio, when Moore did "Roger and Me"...he had actually had done a one -on- one interview with GM CEO Roger Smith,...but choose not to include it in his own film ... but gave the impression in "Roger and Me" that GM CEO Smith was avoiding HIM.

I think Moore's documentary was simply a pigeonholing exercise by someone who has now raked in millions of $$$ via his yellow journalism. The fact he likes Canada vs his own country U.S. shouldn't leave us warm and fuzzy...it's not a compliment.

Moore types really don't benefit anyone nor the particular issues they claim to be objective about.

I've seen his other ones as well," Bowling for Columbine " and " Fahrenheit 9/11 " ... and my box of salt is bigger than the popcorn pile . However, Moore was great as a food -engorging politically -anal suicide -bomber in the movie "Team America : World Police".

As the saying goes...let them cast the first stone IF they have the resume'/credentials. He apparently doesn't, and I look forward even more to seeing both " Manufacturing Dissent" and " Mine Your Own Business ".

Moore and his ilk tend to send the progression to practical solutions of communal problems into a backwards/reverse mode and often make it worse , yet the $$$ roll -in in typical pimping mode.

aka: Typical L-E-F-T-I-E. ( ...see now I used the "L" word ).

Lets try this again

As I stated waaaay baaackk:

When BC was a frontier: What attracted newcomers??? ie non First Nations members?

Much of it was exploitiation of resources. Many of these resources were subsurface, ie the GOLD RUSH.

Those rights were in place long ago. When people decided to stay a while...towns cities, villages grew. Didn't the Feds in the 1800's grant the CPR vast tracts of Land to OWN as payment for the Trans- Canada CPR railway? The CPR then sold it, correct?

People were also given land to homestead ,Crown grants etc. Once there were no more minerals to exploit ie 'the GOLD or coal ran out",......the next level of attracting people to stay and "grow roots"...no pun intended... was Agriculture/ Farming. It was based on both a self -sufficiency and a commercial activity. It was the "most modern" way to go back then.

However, more people came and then a transition occurred. Give or take a couple of World Wars, the transition from a rural agrarian society to an urban one was firmly established, the die have been cast...no going back. Farmers and their families have for the most part left the farm...given these many new options. As populations grew literally exponentially, so did the food requirements, which would imply new means of mass production no different than any other commodity to satisfy mostly large and ever -increasing urban consumer demand ie the Henry Ford model simply applied to agriculture.

Unfortunately, the little guy often gets squeezed out, but that's simply because the logistics, demographics and the dynamics have changed.

RE change...good ...or bad..or ...?
It's no different than when one was younger, one had 4 TV channels before cable came, kicked outside to play with all the 100's of neighbourhood kids, got all that fresh air......but now we have 100's of channels, fewer kids, and they stay indoors and get obese, and careers in farming is the last thing they will consider.

Unfortunate, but thats the way it is...and very tough to play King Kanute. Can't see the current tide going in reverse. Its always "the devil in the details"...which are also often deeply rooted with a continuum based on the past laws and practices etc.

Eureka!

I've just figured it out! He was on the stage at a Reveen show. He was hypnotized so that every time he hears the word "environmentalist" he snaps! When he reads the name "GWest" he thinks conspiracy and then faced with anything like logic he goes rabid! Self destruction insues for maestro... Readers beware.

another thing club

He clearly listens to CBC radio as well.

I heard the interview too and the filmakers didn't come away from the experience as Moore haters.

They realized that any project in this day and age is a marketing exercise. Including their own film - in fact the radio appearance was simply another example of that strategy.

Without bling and publicity you're nothing in a media age.

Maestro thinks that spouting the secret word "lefty", often appended with a ski or two, is his way of getting that 15 mins of fame.

I had no idea it all came about as a result of post-hypnotic suggestion.

Thanks club, it clears up so many grey areas.

Letter to Michael Moore, Esq.

Dear Sir:

Here in the Great White North...

...We have this on-line cult of "L__ties " 's that through sheer coincidence tend to post comments in big smelly lumps...sorta like what happens after a high -fibre diet.

The Cult Leader "G" tends to assume certain things, almost all of which are wrong-o ...and yet when their ass gets kicked screams "ad hominem" a lot.

The cult leader is tougher to find than Jimmy Hoffa but here is a rare B/W photo of the mighty "G". ( Note the nice clothes,shoes, shirt and tie made in overseas sweatshops ) .

http://www.funlol.com/pictures/0363.html

(The photo of cult - apprentice Clown-skyofRome was posted a few weeks back.)

This on-line cult doesn't cover their trail very well. Lotsa Lotsa evidence.

Our agent will be contacting your agent in the near future. Say hi to Roger .

Is maestro still here? I

Is maestro still here? I hadn't noticed cus my puter is programmed to fast forward past infantile spam!
The people of BC and Alberta should bring in a class action suite against this very barbaric, Treasonous act against OUR DEMOCRATRIC RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS! TILMA = Slavery along with Harper's sellout to the USA and the use of the USA's Patriotic Act!

4 million people in BC and 36 million more in OUR Canada and if every one puts into a war fund to fight these vermin from $25-to what ever one puts on the price of FREEDOM
Today just stop buying any stuff=junk we don't need, as it would impact on the bottom line (bottom feeders=shareholders)
http://media.workingtv.com/archives/2007_mar12_633092876667968750/?c=1&media=real&archiveID=0&startTime=

This also is true in OUR

This also is true in OUR Canada not Harpers and his use of "The New Canada"
"If the citizens neglect their Duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the Laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizen will be violated or disregarded.": Noah Webster - (1758-1843) American patriot and scholar, author of the 1806 edition of the dictionary that bears his name, the first dictionary of American English usage.

As so often before, liberty has been wounded in the house of its friends. Liberty in the wild and freakish hands of fanatics has once more, as frequently in the past, proved the effective helpmate of autocracy and the twin-brother of tyranny: Otto Hermann Kahn - Speech at the University of Wisconsin

Michael Moore:

Dear Sir:

Do you have your own personal 9-11(not to be confused with 9/11 )
BTW Up hear its Celsius, not Fahrenheit.

The floodgates are opening-sky.

=========================================

BC Dude...

What's your address?...we have a post -dated cheque to send you... Never seen a L*ftie turn down a donation. Hope your "puter" works...what do ya use on the 19th hole ?

instigating the internecine

Seething with rage and trying to formulate coherant rebuttals to some of the outrageous comments made on the thread above has left me (just about) speechless.

Shepherdess, I think that is the precise intention of many of the regulars here, and I often wonder if they spend the time simply because they enjoy poking sticks in eyes, or if they are paid by the post to disrupt and divide. It's not just the time wasted in the reading, but more so the hamster wheel in the mind that clatters interference to coherence of rational rebuttal. Better to fast forward like over television commercials taped on the vcr.

This setting up one group against the other is a ubiquitous tactic running through all of the government bills being passed lately. An assault on our life support, as in the food we eat, and agricultural land reserve, is a major preoccupation of those that collect useless pieces of colored paper. The neo-liberal economists perception is that it is no big loss if we lose half of our food production capacity since agriculture only accounts for three percent of our GDP. In my darker days I debate the justice of sentencing them to drink molten gold.

I heard some very inspiring speeches yesterday at the rally in South Delta. There were 700 that showed up, and they said they were representing 30 groups who were in turn representing 300,000 people south of the Frazer. The Gateway project is more than anything else a project to pave the pastures. Rafe gave a great speech and I'm disappointed that his Tyee column for this week wasn't on that rather than Quebec. The strong message of the day was that the citizens have to create a coalition against the corporations and not be fooled by devil's deals for crumbs that in hindsight will be paid for by selling the farm.

Maestro

Somehow I don't think you read my post, if you did, you didn't understand it.

The gateway project is part

The gateway project is part of Canada's absorption into the Empire.

In Alberta they're already rebuilding their Hwy #4 to join into the NAFTA superhighway, designed to take our resources South and "business persons", i.e. Central American labour North to replace Americans and Canadians, who "priced themselves out of the market".... as per Preston Manning and Stevie Harpo.

Ed Deak.

Now I get it

I said :

Maestro said :

So here I was thinking that I was including our right-wing friends as "environmentalists". But maestro assumed that by using the phrase "every thinking person" that I was in fact only talking about Leftees.

I'll let people draw their own conclusions about reading comprehension and what Rightees think of themselves.

Gateway project = part of

Gateway project = part of the North American (TILMA=NWO) Super Highway connecting Canada, Mexico and Bushco for fast deployment of the Corporate/Militarization of OUR WORLD!
You think it's impossible? It's started here now as of April 01, 2007 called TILMA.
As of now WE the people can be arrested for gathering in protest or signing a petition to reject a box store to be built in your neighborhood.

The possible hostile takeover of Canada's biggist Publicly owned Corporations!
BCE Bell Canada Enterprises

Frank:

Have you read up on " Mine Your Own Business " ?

Sounds interesting, more objective, and unlike Moore's subjective slants.

I am in the midst of viewing the " Manufactured Landscapes " DVD which the TYEE reviewed several weeks ago. I am up to the part where all the yellow uniformed employees stand outside the huge yellow painted factory.

I'll maintain an open mind till I finish seeing it. I've seen (3) of Moore's movies, start to finish . Ironically the South Park creators interviewed by Moore in one of them made the most sense.

PS Hopefully that will help to explain my response to your earlier post. There are slants ,....and then there is pure BS.

Campbell should be brought

Campbell should be brought up on charges of treason against the people of BC and Canada along with Ralphy and Harper.
Why are our men and woman fighting and dying in Afghanistan? I thought it was for the Afghan's Freedom and Democracy?
So “WE” THE PEOPLE are being ambushed “Of OUR DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS” here in our own country by traitors and corrupt corporations starting with Can'tWest for consiracy to subversive non-reporting.

http://www.freedomtofascism.com./

I am an ex-military person

I am an ex-military person who has a conscience and "I AM CANADIAN"
This is what gordo, Ralphy and Harper are all about Bushco's NWO, scary shite. GREED$$ may they all burn in hell along with the money and all the oil to keep those fires burning! lol

Just a little something

For those fans of global commerce cheap food and outsourcing our food supply needs.

This:
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/5498.html

Is some of the dope on the gluten additive that's been taking out pets. It comes from China, and it's 'food grade' stuff.

So watch your diet boys and girls and maybe steer away from some of those products with wheat gluten on the label.
Yummmm!

There's still hope Supreme

There's still hope
Supreme Court Finds Against Bush Administration EPA
http://vastleftwingconspiracy.net/

Now, maybe if OUR justice system can come together for US the Canadian people and fight this total absurd fraudulent monarchy of traitors who are running amuck in OUR Province British Columbia and OUR country Canada!
!

These Corporations should be

These Corporations should be Nationalized as WE are at war and they are making billions on OUR people's BLOOD (money)!
Enjoy Cappy and your band of while you can as you are one who enjoys wealth without work pretty ugly shite!
OUR government has the power to do it, but do they have the "nads"
South America has the nads and have taken the power and 65% of the wealth back from big oil for the people after being screwed for decades

These carpetbaggers can not

These carpetbaggers can not be nationalized, or kicked out as long as we are in the NAFTA and the WTO.

Their long term plan is the destruction of democracy and total, fascist control of the economy. Chapter 11 of the NAFTA was the start, now comes the TILMA, SPP and NAU, completely removing all decision making powers of society, calling it "rules based trade agreements".

This is only what these phoney "free trade" treaties are about.

Ed Deak.

Maestro

No, but I plan to watch the YouTube video as soon as I can.

Same, I only liked Roger and Me, Columbine and 911 were both over the top and simplistic. And I'm disappointed to read he did actually meet the head of GM.

Sure, so you realize now I was actually being inclusive of the Rightees when I said "every thinking person"?

"Mine Your Own Business" may be a good film or it may just be good propaganda. Same with Moore. Obviously one will lean towards liking a film if one agrees with it.

But the point is, its still just a film, funded by people who don't like environmentalists, about only a tiny group of people that happen to be environmentalists. So don't draw life-lessons from it and in return I won't think every person in BC that votes Liberal is a Columbine-type "trenchcoat Nazi" or colluding with the Saudis to attack the WTC and make it look like bin Laden did it.

Suderman's review

I don't think I'll be rushing out to see the film. At least Suderman is honest enough to acknowledge:

It's not too surprising that people in:

might think some decent work and wages are a good idea.

I can remember reading some years ago exactly the same kinds of reactions from people who got jobs in the mines around Uranium City, Saskatchewan.

A couple generations later, many of their families now decimated by cancer, they aren't so sure.

I'll give it a pass - too bad it's another nasty Canadian mining company. There are too many of those already - some of whose principals now sit on boards at various prestigious institutes of higher learning.

A few years ago a broken

A few years ago a broken settling pond dam of a Canadian owned gold mine in the Hungarian part of Transylvania, Romania, poisoned the Tisza river that runs into the Danube and all the way into the Black Sea, poisoning water tables, thousands of wells and endangering the people of Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania and Bulgaria.

I'll be happy to provide the details tomorrow and what the same company is planning to do now. I don't have the time now.

The copper/gold mines in this neighbourhood of the Cariboo are ecological disasters waiting to happen, without any government intervention.

The workers are well paid, but have to work 12 hours a day for 7 days, then 7 off. Our roads are ruined by the ore trucks, breaking up and with deep ruts in the pavements, for fractional benefits of what the Japanese etc. "investors" get.

Ed Deak.

Thanks for that Ed

I'll look forward to the details any time you have a chance to provide them.

LLC me

So maybe the solution is for every landowner to become a mining corporation. You could defer paying your taxes, have no liability for killing trespassers, get massive public subsidies for digging holes and painting your fence every year, the list goes on and on....!

There are a great number of

There are a great number of articles on the Transylvanian cyanide poisoning of the rivers if you go to google and type in:

"Gold mine cyanide poisoning in Transylvania"

It was an Australian company that promptly went into receivership. An excellent way for corporations to escape responsibilities and not to pay their bills, then open up with a new name the next day.

Now a Canadian company is planning to destroy an ancient town, move the citizens somewhere else, to build a "state of the art gold mine" at Rosia Montana and some other places, against the opposition of neighbouring countries, fearing and expecting another cyanide spill.

I wrote to my local contacts for more information. Here's one....

Demonstrators protest planned gold mine outside Canadian embassy
At the Canadian embassy in Budapest on Monday, some 50 demonstrators presented a petition protesting the planned opening of an open-cast gold mine in Verespatak, Romania.

The primary investor in the mine, Canadian company Gabriel Resources, holds an 80% stake in the concern.
Environmentalist groups say that the company has neither mining experience nor the correct insurance, and in the event of an accident, the cyanide disaster on the Tisza of three years ago could be repeated. The greens firmly oppose the project for that reason. The environmentalists say that they have learned through informal channels that Canada plans to tie support for the establishment of another nuclear reactor at Cernavoda, Romania, to the launch of gold mining at the Verespatak mine. The groups say that their aim is to get the embassy to make a statement on whether such an agreement is indeed in force between Canada and Romania.

According some estimates, the Canadian-Romanian mining project would generate some $2 billion in profits. The project has been severely criticized by several international experts, as well as the EU and the Romanian Academy of Sciences. (MH p.5)

Ed Deak

Re: Manufactured Landscapes documentary

Quite good...and quite different.

Truly an example of " a picture is worth a thousand (silent)words ".

It would be very easy to add more commentary and make it a political message, but the creator seemed to avoid this by design.

I thought the part where they were in a part of China(?) and Gov't officials (censors)were somewhat concerned of their filming a particular area was quite a moment. They were still allowed to take still photos of these proceedings. Much of the movie did not cast the country in a positive light, given it's way of doing business, and the methods of employing its own citizens.

Interesting moment was the visual symbolism of an elderly lady who had been around during Mao's revolution and her standing beside a pile of Hi-Tech material she would be helping recycle.

The film simply laid out visually what was going on in these 3 rd World countries, and how they are rapidly moving from an agrarian to urban/industrialized society . China, under Mao, was apparently 90 % agrarian and 10 % Urban...yet now the transition shows the population is 70 % urban and 30 % agrarian. Given the scale of China's population, this has a huge ripple effect to the rest of the world.

Interesting was one of the few verbal comments made on the massive filling of a huge reservoir...so large that a disruption was detected in the earth's rotation as a result of this reservoirs filling.

The hand demolition of several cities to make way for flooding to facilitate hydro-electric power was to say the least " interesting " as well.

Much more Verbal commentary could easily have been added and not detracted from it or slanted it...but the almost quasi-silent movie style was quite refreshing.

Well done...two thumbs UP.

Conclusion: Recommended viewing .

World Bank Chief Blocks

World Bank Chief Blocks Romanian Gold-Mine Loan by Neil King Jr.
World Bank President James Wolfensohn has killed IFC participation in a $250 million loan for Toronto-based Gabriel Resources Ltd. gold mining investment in Romania that drew fire from environmentalist groups. Wall Street Journal (Dow Jones Newswires) October 11/2002

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Washington: World Bank President James Wolfensohn has killed agency participation $250 million loan Canadian gold-mining investment Romania drew fire environmentalist groups.

International Finance Corp., bank's private-sector lending arm, was negotiating with Toronto-based Gabriel Resources Ltd. back project creating largest open-p gold mine Europe. $400 million Rosia Montana project would displace more than 2,000 people and tear down nearly 900 homes where mine planned. Environmentalists opposed plans build 1,000-acre reservoir to collect cyanide tailings left over mining process.

Mr. Wolfensohn, an unusual intervention, directed IFC head Peter Woicke drop loan negotiations two weeks ago during World Bank's annual meeting, according bank official. IFC, which was still studying project's possible environmental impact, began formally advising involved parties decision yesterday. bank's involvement wouldn't have exceeded $100 million.

The bank has come under heavy criticism backing environmentally dubious projects around world. Activists who demonstrated against the bank during annual meeting singled out Rosia Montana project one example how invests disruptive projects. World Bank official, citing environment social concerns its decision back away project, said case "an example of how we're seeking have an open dialogue with development partners."

Carol Welch, deputy international director environmental group Friends Earth, said decision "definitely victory," but added shows how much pressure bank faces stay out big mining projects.

Mr. Wolfensohn decided against project after talking briefly with two Romanian environmental activists who met bank president the end seminar, bank official said. Romanian government, which supports project, fought bar activists from attending World Bank meetings, official said.

Gabriel Resources, which traded on Toronto Stock Exchange, estimates mine could unearth more than 10 million ounces gold over 15 years. Robin Hickson, Gabriel's president, said company fully intends proceed without IFC support, using private debt equity financing. company approached IFC, he said, primarily in interest gaining environmental social assistance, less financial help.

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Probe International Home

THank you very much Ed

Puts the whole "Mine your own Business" controversy, not to mention Peter Suderman's largely un-researched puff piece in its service into an entirely different context.

You can almost guarantee, when something appears in the National Review (an organ now largely deserted by its founder), that it will be one-sided and ingratiating to the reflexive right to the point of worthlessness.

Gee.... G West

There is such a thing as a mind so open the brain falls out.

Maybe get some duct tape...unless its too late.

I think your subscription to National Review is about up...time to renew it before that's too late as well.

Note: I didn't use the "L" word .........................................................YET-sky.

The last thing the world

The last thing the world needs are more useless goldmines.

Some gold, or precious stones, like diamonds, have some important uses in life enhancing and life saving equipment, but the majority just goes into jewellery and similar junk to bolster the egoes of predators who least deserve it.

Ed Deak.

Absolutely agree Ed

And thanks again.

I trust it's not too much to hope that Paul Wolfowitz's efforts to challenge the effects of poverty during his tenure at the World Bank won't involving the promotion of mining projects as a social ladder from poverty and starvation into the ranks of the middle class.

I understand that 6 out of the last 10 years the world has not produced enough grains and rice to meet world food demand and has been drawing down stored reserves. Wheat and corn futures are going through the roof. Not least because of the amount of corn production going into ethanol distillation.

With the increasing impact of global warming on agricultural production, much more effort needs to be put into growing food than digging up jewels and gold from beneath the earth. As the Spanish found to their cost in Mesoamerica, gold isn’t very palatable.

errata

'involving' should be 'involve' in para 2

It seems a fellow using FOI

It seems a fellow using FOI got a report from the Agriculteral ministry. Seems we need more land to grow things, not less and the idea of removing some homes might be needed. So right in the middle of this our beloved provoincial goverment is willing to take ALR land pass it to bands, who suddenly won't have to abide by the ALR rgulations what is this province coming to? The bands ae of the opinion hat they own the mineral rights as well.The Tsawassen band chief stated the ALR land they are being offered will be leased to a railway. Food growing, go do it somewhere else.

The Tsawwassen Deal

Have you read the deal DPL. I just realized it is now available on the Band website:
http://www.tsawwassenfirstnation.com/TFN_FA_Dec_1_2006_Final.pdf

You raise some interesting points that should have been addressed, among other things, in the Legislature long before now.

At least I think so.

No matter what WE say or do

No matter what WE say or do if we stand in the way of corporate greed TILMA to the rescue lol We are libel for min $5million taxpayer's hard earned bucks. What a shame for British Columbians
WE HAVE GOT TO TAKE BACK OUR RIGHTS!
http://freespeechca.blogspot.com/

This is for US, OUR kids and

This is for US, OUR kids and OUR Grandkids future!
This TILMA (it became law on April 01, 2007) it's all bad news as it strips all of OUR Democratic Rights and Freedoms away and gives Corporations the last say over all casterated governments = labour $4 bucks an hour jobs with no job protections
http://www.canadians.org/DI/issues/TILMA/backgrounder.html

Why hasn't the media published any real articles about this Treacherous Act against the people of BC/Alberta and Canada?
Because CanWest owns 98%+ of all media Van Sun, Van Province, Global TV, Victoria Times http://www.ketupa.net/asper1.htm
Have you read anything in msm Main Stream Media about the BC Rail scandal, ever wonder why?

Yet when NDP were in power

Yet when NDP were in power Glen Clark was raked over the media for weeks and weeks every night the RCMP and cops searching G Clark's home with the CanWest/Global TV were there before the cops were there?
He was found not guilty but the NDP along with G Clark were ruined
Now G Clark is the CEO of Slave On Foods or Cave On Foods?
Last seen on J Pattison's yacht along with Bush Sr with wife and Bush Jr w/wife google it or Wiki pedia it maybe Hansard?
These are third world dick-tator politics it disgusts me as to why OUR (Army) people are in Afghanistan dying for their freedom and Democracy and WE are being Am-Bush-ed in OUR Country by Fed Libs, Harpers gestapo
NAFTA = mulroney = traitor
G Campbell/R Klien = traitors
Overthrow these dispicable cowards who haven't the guts to say "NO"
I say "NO"

Quote:The retired prosecutor

This is all too similar to the Forests Act of 1976, but let's leave that aside for another time except to say it's a wholesale hand over of assets to one industry - an industry which had made copious political donations to the party which passed the legislation. In the Forests Act case it was public land; in this case it's private land rights that, yes, do go back 800 years.

The question that comes to mind right off is how much did the mining industry, as an organization and by each company and major investors etc., donate to the government's election fund. Can we only go after them if we learn there were private gifts, i.e. non-official donations (all merrily matched by the public coffers, no less...), or is outright legislation-buying actually legal in this country??

If so, why? And how do we stop it?

This strikes me as one of those cases where you'd prefer to have the Law Lords or Privy Council to refer this garbage to, which strikes me as contrary to Common Law and Magna Carta alike. Hell, if First Nations people can have mineral title that's secure from such expropriation (unless title is signed away as in what the Lheidli T'enneh turned down), then it strikes me as an equality issue that other people have the same entrenched rights.

It's not this bad in the US, is it? I mean, this strikes me as.....well, almost Soviet-style in its authoritarian-ness and blatant payoffs to political backers. It's the problem with our system; one giant pork barrel run by patronage and slush funds.

Oh, lost my train of thought (of course, as always) - thte further question other than the dollar value of mining industry donations, and including things like their own promo ads (esp. those taht look like governmetn ads...), and how much of a fraction is that of the profits they get to make by ripping up land they don't even own, which the people who live on it don't want them to?

The buying of legislation by political donations has got to be stopped, especially when not only public assets are being sold off but public land rights are being uprooted. This is beyond tyranny now; it is madness, and does not bode well for the "rule of law" or private/smallguy rights; not that it's ever been good; but it's getting a lot worse....cf. Ledgegate, but also this and the gas/oil drilling/exploration industry.

Exactly how many more political-donation obligations does Campbell have yet to fill?

G W Bushco will be our next

G W Bushco will be our next great leader as we in Canada have at least 1,000,000+ future soldiers to keep his perpetual war going.
"There is no Profit in Peace"
What we have in BC and Canada is not real democracy but a nation of slaves for the Corporate Greed.
How many people in Canada are only 1 or 2 pay checks away from being homeless?
I bought a 2br/house on a 75' by 250' lot with full basement in the Hope area in 73 for $28 grand 3 grand down 11.25% int. making a $250. a month mortgage payment at that time I was making $12.60 an hour as a journeyman carpenter.
Since then Greed gordo klien harper deion jack L all parties have sold their souls

it's a bit different than that...

No, no, no - it's our souls they sold.....

They can't sell our souls as

They can't sell our souls as only we can do that!
Look what Bill Gates has turned into, he wants to allow $4 an hr jobs, money is evil

so....

...every time you use it, you sell your soul. esp. in strict religious terms, i.e. the "pure" doctrines of the major religions ("attachment is suffering" etc in Buddhism), but also in general mystical traditions of all kinds and even po-mo economic analysis; money is the devil's paperwork, or some such metaphor I've forgotten the exact terms of. There's a chapter in Norman O. Brown's Life Against Death, I think it is, discussing "filthy lucre" in psycho-scatalogical terms, and pointing up the irrelevance/immorality of charity by the rich; all very interesting but perturbing to read; easier to read the ascetics and hermetics by comparison...

Money is the embodiment of capital, of value; the placing of value on things is inherently "satanic" in spiritual terms (unless you're an Ayn Rand-ite or a Member of the Church of the Fraser Institute or born-again capitalist/Christian/militarist) but so is te placing of value on religious objects, including the great shrines and holy places; there's an old Icelandic maxim that's the opening couplet from a famous rune-song:

.....orig

fe veldr fraenda rogi; foedisk ulfr i skogi

Without accent marks, or the hatch-mark across the spin of the d. "Fe" literally means cattle, but in idiomatic terms it means wealth and/or all your possessions. Fraenda means your people, who you are part of, whether bloodkin or sworn kin/community. Foedisk is a "middle" voice (sort of a reflexive) of something like to foster, to nurture.

To get rid of greedy banks

To get rid of greedy banks and make politicos accountable to US the voters try this http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?cid=14&_id=32
So why don't WE the people as WE have the Power to demand OUR Rights of a Free People take these Vermin down for ever as they are only there for what they can get $$$ away with "DEMAND THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE'S BANK OF CANADA"
6 big banks $19 billion profits last year is just unconcionsinable! To allow this Shareholders have no souls.
As more and more people become homeless because of unscrupiluos corporations unsatiable greed no matter who or what gets in the way!

To me CAP sounds like a

To me CAP sounds like a great strong moral party or even an opposition to the tyrants we seem to get stuck with now, as they are only for big biz and their own greed.
One day we will all stand in front of OUR Good Lord and Saviour!
http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/

www.canadianactionparty.ca/ho

http://www.canadianactionparty.ca/home.html

The things that will destroy

The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; and worship without sacrifice: Mahatma Mohandas K. Gandhi