Until unions become true social justice organizations and include anyone who wishes to join, until they become a true counterbalance to the influence of capital in government, they will be ineffective in rallying the support of the general public and in generating constructive government policy that allows the entrepreneurial to make a good living without picking the pockets of employees and taxpayers. In this particular instance, parents have to be on board with any changes to be made, along with administrators and trustees. There also needs to be greater transparency and equity with regard to the collection and disbursement of tax revenues: it seems unfair for civil servants of any stripe to see the "booming" economy that only seems to confer benefits on a narrow spectrum of the business and investing classes, while working people are, in effect, being told to tighten their belts.

jeanbirch, you stole my thunder. I too thought Mark Fetterly clearly showed an appalling degree of misunderstanding about unionism.

is just about the dumbest comment I have heard to summarize the recent battle.

Perhaps Mr. Fetterly might have been asked when that deal would have been reached; after the government told them to shut up or before the BC Fed and its afiliates forced Gordon Campbell to back off.

danneau, has also jumped right in to throw a bit at the unions for being so hostile to working people.

Until unions become true social justice organizations and include anyone who wishes to join... he waxes philosophically.

Perhaps when labour legislation permits danneau's current pipe-dream of instantly representing everyone, employers will have far less of a say in who gets to represent who.

I am almost always in favour of unions, but which union is best and a few other questions might encourage someone to vote otherwise, which throws a wrench into the all inclusivity ideal, doesn't it.

Or is danneau suggesting that labour tell the government to get stuffed, announce it no longer abides by the BC Labour Code and then shuts the entire province down to process the next grieveance that comes along?

Hey, I'm up for some good old fashioned anarchy just as much as the next guy, but if that's the plan then get ready to start bailing on some of those car payments as well.

Teachers certainly didn't gain much in the past round, but they sure as hell didn't lose much either given what was on the government agenda until it was forcably altered by help by a third party.

Perhaps if they reflected a bit more on what other professionals or union members, especially in the public sector, were experiencing in their contract disputes instead of painting themsleves as the most important people in the world, they'd appreciate who their real enemies are.

Perhaps teachers should talk to the rank and file of the HEU before deciding whether to stick with The Fed.

BC UNIONS are rabid and you need not wonder why the public backs gordon campbell when the ordinary citizen sees the crap thrown around during negotiations.

if we had more even minded leaders instead of the frothing at the mouth idealists,we wouldn't have the likes of gordon campbell leading the province.

THIS PROVINCE IS POLARIZED TO THE EXTREMES AND IT'S THE NORM NOWADAYS

don't look for changes if you're not ready to make any,these things are in our hands

While there is certainly some "professionalist" hypocrisy that exists amongst teachers, and other similar"higher working-class strata" groups, all mouthing irrational do-gooder nonsence, by and large the teachers that I know, and they are many over the years, are certainly aware that there cannot be an artificial separation created between the quality of their lives economically and all otherwise, and the well being of their students. Both students AND teachers, even if parents aren't always aware of it in the "busyness" of their lives in these increasingly difficult and insecure times, are locked in a mutually dependant relationship frankly. A state of disempowered, disenfranchised and overworkerd teachers facing too large of class sizes and declining resources, as likewise teachers not keeping up economically, inevitably finds its mirror reflection in students likewise suffering and for very similar reasons in a generalized impoverished home and learning environment. (When such as teachers and unions can't thrive, less even do so "unorganized" salaried and hourly working class groups, very often the family roots of these same students.)

And all anti-union talk masked behind vacuous mouthings and notions of aesthetics, values and professionalism is largely an attempt to run away and hide from this reality. To wish it away. The same kind of "public service" yada yada, wherein these same styled folks really mean and more value "public slaves", has and was always used similarly to keep especially "state/public workers" down and in line as well. It was part of the rhetorical nonsence of the "old right" and is its connecting thread with the bullshite "new" Neoconazi right riding high today, since the late 1970s.

And as the haywire "trickle down" economic theories of this same Neocon "establishment" political element, and their apologists here have been the major part of the deteriorating situation generally throughout the economy and society, likewise when it comes to the issues of how ALL elements of the working class, including public servants and "professionals", should organize and respond, they seek to disarm us there as well, and create a labour force of the dutifully slavish. Which consequence has been decling working class incomes and well-being and the deterioration of the public institutions of society such as education, health and all of the underpinning public services etc. These people, know it or not, lend themselves to the processes at work within society and working class life that lead to its growing impoverishment, the collapse of all economics, and yes, growing class conflict in the end. It is not unions so much, as these Neocon and "timid/frightened apologist" elements within society who parrot them and their actual ruling class loyalties, that are the fundamental driving element in this process of the destruction of society-, in any meaningful or "egalitarian" context at all.

Unless, of course, one's view of the "ideal" working class life is one of Dickensonian poverty, intellectually and monetarily.

Continued nest post...

From previous post...

Trade Unions have their problems, no bloody doubt. By and large however, in addition to a much needed revitalization of its democratic processes and a renewal of "class conscious" leadership, it largely languishes, is ineffective and in decline not for want of "sweet reasonableness and willingness to cooperate", code-speak for engage in greater "class collaboration", but more for want of a reconnection with its founding and militant historical class roots. It is an institution that has become tired and content with "routine", the maintenance of its fulltime officers' "career interests", and submission to the system's demand for "legality," and condesention to "authority"-, which is anything but the social soil out of which it was created and flourished for a time.

While I understand many teachers disgust with the BC Fed coming out of their brief strike last year, really more the lesson they need to draw, in my humble view, as do many other workers, organized and unorganized, is of a determination to launch a mighty process of "renewal" and "reinvigoration" within its creaky jointed halls and ranks, and thereby initiate as well a renewal of all the "in decline" economic, social and political institutions of our our capitalist society, which coming out of the post war period of prospertiy has turned on working people again-, being truer to its own historical Industrial Revolution and Dickensonian mean-spirited roots.

Good posts Coyote;-)
as a Union official myself the I see first hand the changes that have come about in the relationship between workers and their masters. For a time it seemed that everyone was trying to be fair and even the wage structure in our organization had very little differance between Union and Managment. In the last 10 years we have watched CAO and Directors' wages double and triple when in the same time period the Union wages acually went down...

Thomos said.
"BC UNIONS are rabid and you need not wonder why the public backs gordon campbell when the ordinary citizen sees the crap thrown around during negotiations."

It would appear to most of us that the ordinary citizens supported the BC Teachers in large numbers for Gordo to shift gears.

One union that supported the teachers was my old federal union. Each member got a four days loss of pay as federal unions don't have the right to support political protests.( the grievance resulted in a drop to two days loss of pay. So what was in it for the federal union, you might wonder? It's called solidarity with other workers.

The doctors got another gold plated tenantive agreement yesterday, far in excess of anything any union is asking for. A bunch of radicals for sure as they each got around $50,000 last time around. Not bad for a group of so called self employed folks on the public purse.

DPL,you are right about the pay hikes for the doctors and it shows that they are wedded to the Liberals and in particular the Campbell boys.

when i was at a hospital(the name escapes me) getting a colonoscopy,it was delayed while the specialist talked to the liberal funds raiser,i was sitting not ten feet away listening.it was when the liberals first got in and they were negotiating how much and who the doctor could get for the party.the names ,the numbers,the arrogance was astonishing.

so ,i know first hand that the people in the Campbell camp will get theirs before anyone of us gets anything,if ever.

Let the Rhetoric Begin!

Some interesting observations:

A fair bit of truth in this me thinks. Losing two weeks' wages and paying a huge fine and calling it a victory is akin to doing same when winning 20 seats. The above quoted person is a Traitor to the Cause, a brainwashed Fiberal agent. How dare anyone in a union have an independent thought!!!!

I would like to see the questions. I also challenge the BCTF to provide me actual hard date on EXACTLY how many classes are over crowded and/or have special needs students in them. Further, tell us how the number is arrived at. But we never will see that, will we?

"Misunderstanding," eh Jinny? I may not agree with Sinclair but he is not stupid. He knew that more escalation was not going to get him and his members anything but enormous fines. A lot of union members do not vote NDP and he knows it. Jinny is a radical as it gets and needs to use such language to appease herself and her rabble.

Conviently forgotten by the Tyee and those posting here. Carole James is also a very astute woman. She realises that she 1) may one day (but unlikely) be in power and have do deal with the BCTF. 2) Unless the provincial NDP can formally sever ties with the labour "movement" she will never form a government. She is working to that end, too.

A very valid point but having the College of Teachers police BCTF members is like having the fox in charge of the hen house and vice versa.

Oh my! You mean that parents actually have to teach stuff to their kids? What a terrible dilemma!

More than a few I'd wager. Since they foot the bill for the whole thing, perhaps the BCTF can come clean with some hard facts to back their claims up:

1. What is the average class size in BC?

2. How many classes are overcrowded?

3. Exactly how many special needs kids are there in the system?

4. If the BCTF says "there are 40 students" in a class, exactly how many bodies are there in the room and his is the number calculated?

But we won't see answers to these questions, will we?

Excellent comment. Public sector unions in BC are designed to keep anybody who is not white and born in BC out. Have a look at their demographics. Go talk to immigrant support agencies.

And with that comment WM, you've totally lost any shred of credibility.

Thanks, Rex, for opening a good discussion.

I have tremendous respect for teachers. Lord knows I couldn't do it :-)

There are many excellent teachers out there, but sadly the current union model rewards seniority, not excellence. I think this is a huge disservice to good teachers everywhere, and our children.

A bad teacher, even with years of documented incompetence, cannot be fired. The union fights it nearly every time and wins. A brilliant teacher, who goes the extra mile every day cannot be rewarded. How can this lead to greatness in our education system?

.

If you, and all the people you associate with on a daily basis weren't white, you might agree with me.

Of course I know WM is just trying to get some of us worked up here but I can tell you CUPE lets all in regardless of their race, age or gender preference. It is the employer who has the responsability of hiring that control how many are white, how many are black...

CUPE yes. Have a look at some of the polices of the Nurse's union over the years. Have a look at the policies of the BCTF to keep non-BC certified teachers out of their schools. Compare the demographics of teachers and their students in public schools and you will see what I mean.

I have a lot of respect for CUPE, which I see as a reasonable union that really looks out for its members rather than the politcal adgenda of its leaders.

"In the meantime, union leaders are calling for "a dramatic shift" in the public school system away from "the current accountability agenda"

That was from the Sun yesterday. The teachers won't rest until they have complete autonomy over the school system. Is that what's best for the students or the teachers? I would say students get no benefit from a system with no accountability.

Jim,

Accountability is what socialist fear the most. They have worked for years against it. For example, why is the extra coverage for my vehicles half the cost through a private company than it is though ICBC?

Why does the health care system function poorly at delivering service despite 44% of the provincial budget going towards it?

Why isn't there a list of teachers fired from their jobs for misconduct? Doctors and lawyers have one.

The socialists hate accountability and will blame absolutely everyone but themselves.

Interesting and impassioned discussion. Some of my thoughts- we all know that the benefits of early education last a lifetime, and that there is no more productive and vital resource to continue society than education. And it bothers me that this never gets said, and that teacher representation, via the union, is so partisan, and after spending millions dissing the Liberals, its obvious that the government will never volunteer anything not fought for.

The die, unfortunately, is cast. No matter what, the teachers will lose the bonus, they will see a 2.6 percent raise, and the costs of the system will increase about 4% per year while enrollment erodes at 1.5%. The only question is how much school the kids miss. Eveything else, pragmatically, is just noise.

Lets try and get back on topic here. The teachers affiliation with the BCFED has been a very positive step for them. Last year's strike was evidence of that. In the Kootenays, the teachers received tremendous support from the local unions. If the teachers decide they don't want to be affiliated with the BCFED, that fine too, its a democracy. However, when/if the teachers go on strike, all they need do is ask for our support and we'll be there to help them.

As Unionist, we realize that pooling our resources makes us stronger. Everybody, union or non-union is affected by governments cuts to education and health. Union's simply give us platform to orgainize thousands of people in a moments notice and deliver a message that even a neocon can't ignore. I hope the teachers vote to stay with us, you are a valuable component of the BCFED.

When I belonged to a trade union, the BCFed did nothing for us except take our money. And when we went on strike and stopped the railways, the fed's voice was out there demanding legislation to get us back to work. Why? Because the railways strike had an impact on other unions and they couldn't get to work on the docks and therefore the other unions were about to lose membership dues and the Fed would have had troubles paying their bills. The teachers should shun the Fed like the plague.

As a counterpoint, everyone is affected by additional expenditures in education and health, like what's been going on in BC over the past 5 years.....

I hope the Teachers vote to stay in the Fed they are in the same fight as all working people(except maybe the Drs) and we all need to stick together in our fight for better working conditions.

Coyote suggests:

You're right. I cringe every time my teacher friends talk about "learning" conditions! I want to scream" "Stop apologizing! You're entitled to decent "working" conditions!"

If, tangentially, learning conditions are improved, that's terrific. But, first, and foremost, the BCTF needs to ensure decent working conditions for its members.

Working Man:

So, how would this be different than having other professionals (doctors? lawyers? engineers?) sitting on their profressional boards?

Why? Because the College of Teachers is not supposed to be partisan but in reality is made up of the most rabid BCTFers. Futher, there is a black list of doctors andlawyers but not of teachers.

rikia:

An incompetent teacher, with years of documented incompetence CAN and WILL be fired. Quite rightfully, this is a painstakingly tedious process. However, if administrators are convinced that a teacher must be fired, and can find the evidence, that teacher will be fired.

If you're concerned about this, don't point your finger at the union. If you're concerned, consider that your schools' administrators may be incompetent and incapable to making a termination case.

Working Man:

If they're certified --according to BC standards -- then school districts are free to hire them (the BCTF is not part of that process). Teachers lacking BC certification are no more entitled to teach in BC than lawyers, engineers, doctors, nurses, etc without the required certifications are entitled to work in BC. Next thing you know, you'll suggest that non-certified electricians be able to trouble-shoot at a pulpmill or wire a new construction site.

As to the demographics you talk of: please stick to demographics. In Vancouver, the bulk of the teachers are white and the bulk of the students are not. What's wrong with that? Are white teachers inherently bad? Of course the answer lies in the demographics: the teachers are old (generally 50-plus) and about ready to retire. They quite accurately reflect the population of Vancouver schools 30-plus years ago. If you took the time to look about, you'd see that the new-hires do reflect a more diverse population.

David:

David, are you suggesting that the Liberals, but for the BCTF dissing, would be much more generous to BC teachers?

If so, that'd be a first! Quite simply, history teaches us that unless you fight for your increases, nobody will give them to you voluntarily.

I beg to differ on that. The BCTF were very involved in draughting the current regulations. Other interest groups are just as exclusionary as the BCTF. If you everybody you know not were not white you might have a better insight.

.

White teachers are not inherently bad, just exclusionary. I do not buy that most teachers are older than 50 years. When my son was in public school in 2003 most teachers there were under 30 and many in their 20's.

Working Man:

And you know this for a fact? I know someone who sat on the College: she was clearly NOT rabid.

Who are the rabid members of the College?

It's curious that on a lot of posts the anti-union sentiment of many BC'ers comes out loud and clear. It's as if we've all forgotten who won our hard fought for rights to decent working conditions, reasonably fair wages, some time off, and all the other benefits enjoyed by working men and women in this country. It was the unions, and their members who fought and died to win these rights for all workers. Are we saying that now that we've got these rights we don't need the unions any more? Don't be fooled...without unions these rights would be eroded sooner than you may think.

As for the issue of afiliation...I think that the BCFED is a top heavy organization that needs a major shake-up within it's leadership. A 15% pay cut for hospital support workers, and the abandonment of the teachers, and CUPE, on the final day of the techers strike clearly shows that they are not qualified to represent labour in this province. It's time for Jim Sinclair to go! And I'd say to the teachers of this province...be careful about who you get into bed with as they may just steal all the blankets and leave you out in the cold!

Working Man:

If you're going to make a coherent case, please refrain from using anecdotal evidence. Who cares what your son's teachers were.

What's relevant here is the demographics off ALL teachers in the system. Take a walk through any high school in Vancouver: check out the grey hair and the wrinkles (on all the old white faces). Ask school administrators how many staff members they expect will be retiring in the next 5 years (you'll be astounded at the numbers!). "White teachers with non-white students" is simply a function of population demographics, not some nefarious discriminatory plot on the part of the BCTF.

Anyway, as I said before, the race of whoever is hired is outside the power of the BCTF: school boards do the hiring. If you have an issue, take it up with your local elected school board officials.

My mind is still spinning trying to cope with your notion that the BCTF somehow control entry into the profession by race! JeeeeSSSHHH!!!!

In my experience ...30 years of teaching in four provinces ... some of the most incompetent teachers are often moved into administration and that has become one of the biggest problems in the system.

The incompetents then try to direct others to do a job that they were incapable of doing properly in the first place. For some reason they are also paid more money than hard working teachers -just to take on mundane tasks that are mostly delegated to secretarial staff anyway. (An example of the "extra value/cost" is that administrators in some districts are paid a higher rate per kilometer to travel to the same out of town meetings as teachers. Just phone your local school baord and see if this is true.)

There are some exceptions of course. Some administrators are really good, but in my experience, they are few and and far between.

Grub
Why bother? You’re letting him yank your chain. Anyone who succumbs to the logical fallacy of concluding that extrapolations from the anecdotal (and frequently the misinterpreted or partly understood) to the general reflect upon anything or anyone other than the person who advances such ridiculous points isn't worth the powder, so to speak.

What complete and utter hyperbole this Neoconazi spews!

The reality is, as everyone of us can see around ourselves daily in this time of ruling class spin and decline, and especially currently in the rush to kiss US Empire ass in Afghanistan, it is capitalism and the ruling class that, in fact, most fears democracy and accountability. They account themselves to no one. They just do it. They send our young working class men and women off to war, playing on their naivety and misplaced idealism, break labour contracts and committments with impunity, while holding the rest of us to our contracts and debts completely unforgivingly. They take the country to war without so much as a howdy-do and expect us all to genuflect at the alter of sacrifice to US Empire Loyalism with nary a question.

Kiss this bared butt you phony Neoconazi piece of work. We have to cough up accountability for our actions every bloody hour of every goddamn day. Whilst the ruling class you slurp away on under the table, grabs your hair and gives itself a "profit increase" that none are there to question, or that has to be justified to citizen, society or the State.

"Take that yo motha, and if you don't like it, quit and get another job.!"

Whilst we who want so much as a $.10 an hour increase have to endure threats, media vilification and months on strik, bringing hardship to our families-, justifying ourselves case by case, point by point, and nickle by nickle to ourselves, the ruling class, and the mediation, arbitration, courts processes and entire ruling class dominant system of labour negotiations. Now that's accountability, motherfugger, which we have to run!

And it is what is wrong with this system of current capitalism, what has to be resisted, fought against constantly, over and over again, relentlessly, until "they" are finally brought up to account, thier place in society and power circumscribed, their arbitrary system of control smashed and democratized.

Get out from under that ruling class table where you seek to ingratiate yourself so-called "working man", and check out reality in the real world as experienced by the majority of us. Either you are your own man, or you are theirs. And there is more to life than can be seen having your face buried in ruling class pubes.

Umslopogaas:

The Peter Principle is alive and well.

Interestingly, if my memory serves me, Lawrence Peter got his start as a shop teacher for the VSB. Fundamentally, the Peter Principle is based on his VSB observations, exactly what you relate, "some of the most incompetent teachers are often moved into administration"...

COYOTE:Whilst we who want so much as a $.10 an hour increase have to endure threats, media vilification and months on strik, bringing hardship to our families-, justifying ourselves case by case, point by point, and nickle by nickle to ourselves, the ruling class, and the mediation, arbitration, courts processes and entire ruling class dominant system of labour negotiations. Now that's accountability, motherfugger, which we have to run!

That was so good, I just needed to cite it, just to see it again.

When we ask "how much profit does the corporation need?" we're told that's a naive question that need not be answered except by way of the concept of maximization.

$crew that!

If the corporation can profit maximize then workers have every right to demand salary maximization. OK, boss, let's go tit-for-tat on that one.

"a revolutionary career does not lead to banquets and honorary titles, interesting research and professorial wages. It leads to misery, disgrace, ingratitude, prison and a voyage into the unknown, illuminated by only an almost superhuman belief."

Max Horkheimer

strong medicine coyote ..strong medicine amen

I know this is off-topic, but I am finding the BCTF's initial demands to be very ironic. In a recent round of negotiations (around 2000 as I recall, but don't hold me to it, and I think it was David C who was leading the charge back then) they tried to use the strategy that there was a looming shortage of teachers out there, so the government had better buck up to the tune of around 35% pay raise. To the surprise of nobody, the reality of it was that there is an over abundance of teachers, and it is actually students who were, and still are, in a shortage position. Then fast forward to last year. Class size and composition were the buzz words and anecdotical horror stories of overcrowded classes loomed in every corner of the province.

Have a look at the actual numbers in this website:
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/reports/pdfs/class_size/public.pdf
Not perfect, but not quite the story Jinny led us to believe.

The categories of special needs at the very end of the pdf are also quite interesting. Categories A to H are likely the students who were put into special schools back in the days when those of us who have grey hair went to school. But the last four categories have always been mainstream.

Finally, as far as the opinion poll released by the BCTF, I saw the questions it asked. The fact that there was not support in the 90% range is actually quite damning to the results.

, says Rikia.

Yes, a bad teacher can get fired, but it takes a good administrator to process the firing, not someone going through the ropes.

Like all workplaces were there are unions some will say oh those lazy union members, they are lucky because they can't be fired.

That is pathetic hogwash, dribble that rolls off the lips of managers who have been advanced far too far up the chain without ever being tested for anything resembling smarts.

All it takes to fire any employee is: 1 an employee who deserves to be fired, 2, an administrator who knows what a firing offence is and 3, someone with the ability to follow a constructive dismaissal process, unless of course the employee is caught doing something tht warrents immediate firing.

In that case the firing should be immediate and be grieved later.

Now, because a manager hasn't the time or the inclination to go after a worker or the manager wants to remain popular or is just so dumb that he or she can't even articulate a problem, isn't the union's fault.

Of course a union isn't going to go about filtering out members for firing. Give me a break folks, if tht's your read of life.

Unions represent and protect workers. Employers decide who works and who doesn't.

What in the world would make you think a union should dicipline its members for their work practices?

Working man, good to see you hating just as much as ever.. I guess Jinny Simms is one of those middle class white males that run the union, eh.

Crawl back under buddy 'cause I understand it's fishing season and you look like big bait potential.

Many thanks to Rex Weyler for writing about this important topic.

Regarding juskatladude's off-topic comment (above):
I don't know if he or she is trying to continue pushing misinformation for the purpose of brain-washing others, or if he or she is naive enough to truly believe those reports. Either way, it must be stated that important facts are left out of those reports. Also, methods used for calculating class-sizes are often based on averaging non-enrolling teachers in the numbers. This brings averages down. Another way that averages are reduced is through creative course naming. A case in point, a Lower Mainland principal wanted to help his numbers not appear too large so he gave one teacher two calculus classes of over twenty that he taught at exactly the same time. To a statistician, the two courses contained but twenty-some students. To the students and the teacher in the classroom, there were more than 40 students present. There are countless other means of bending the ratios. One of my least favourite methods is giving the principal of a school teaching duties. We know that he or she is counted as a teacher for those hours, but I have witnessed many principals who spend a good deal of their "teaching" time dealing with school emergencies and district business. The students, therefore, suffer.

"There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics!" Harry S. Truman

Thanks for your time, and remember, sharing is good.

Jinny is perfect. A real Oreo.

It was Jim Sinclair who saved the BCTF from the arrogance and stupidity of Simms during the strike. Who can forget when she broke Ready’s media ban. Simms was completely out of control. The BCTF can not afford to loose Sinclair’s experience at the table. Sinclair should have been knighted for what he pulled off. If the BCTF votes out the BC Fed they deserve to go down in flames next time. And we all know there will be a next time.

typical rubbish and shite from the socialist hordes here. the teacher's ILLEGAL JOB ACTION had nothing to do with the kids in the classroom and everything to do with politics. the bctf executive had been itching for a strike since chudnovsky was at the helm. it's about glen clarkian us vs. them class warfare and it won't stop until all the little teacher/sheep wake up and realize they're being led around by the nose by a bunch of whacked-out marxist ideologues who couldn't really give a rat's ass about the education system.

Ahaa! With 'working man' dispatched and scuttling back to his usual abode it was only a matter of time till the other member of the Katzenjammer Kids of illogic and vituperation arrived to take up the impotent cudgels of the looney right. Nice to know that little Elliot is still on call for low-value deliveries.

peter principle surfaces when people finally realize that the system isn't perfect and we are the reason why.

we do make mistakes and it's unfortunate that our egos don't allow us to admit to them.

fix the system ,stop the bitching and whining.

otherwise this is just going to go on and on and on and on...

Teachers need the alliances that come with being in the BCFL. I am one teacher that will be voting for affiliation. It's much easier to break one pencil than twenty.

This is a political fight. One that has many parents and taxpayers on the side of teachers. One that the teachers will win. Teachers are just so much more credible than Gordon Campbell and his cronies.

Doesn't take much to reduce these Braunshirts back to their typical one line Elliotesque blather, does it? They fall by the wayside with their "lies, damned lies, and statistics", and emerge only to hurl their ever more obvious hatred of ordinary working class lives, demonstrating that afterall, their snob classism is not that much different from racism-, indeed that it is spawned out of the same Neoconazi intellectual cesspool.

Meanwhile, it should serve to demonstrate to the more naive elements of the working class just exactly what is emerging here, around this rise of the Neoconazi Right in the shadows of the new, more reactionary Liberal and Conservative ruling class politics , and why we need our own responding "class solidarity", to enable our defence of each other, and to advance and overwhelm these swaggering "dolts" in good time.

What one fails to notice and respond to today, as the failure of Operation Solidarity in the early 80s is a testament to, can only return very often to bite you on the ass and haunt you in another day. And these rightwingnutters do wish to bite us on the ass, have no doubt.

Goddamn, that's funny brother!

It shows your age 8-), but for anyone with a memory that casts that far back, an entirely apt and colourful bit of image creation. This characterization of this rightwingnutter crew will keep me chuckling the rest of the day.

The Katzenjammer Kids of illogic and vituperation! Beautiful.

In one writers view J. Simms is a oreo. What a brilliant statement. She was the presidnet of the teacher's union duing the illegal strike,strange that she just got relected if she is so useless at bargaining. Strange the teachers, and average taxpayes supported her management.Strange that recent polls still show BC citizens in a majority support the teachers.

So the teachers want an increase. The Alberta government pays more, as does Ontario. Even Ralph knows you have to pay people to stay.

We now see a group of so called independent little business guys( doctors) picking up another 19 percent. Does anyone call them greedy union people. Heck no, we all love doctors. when they shut down their offices in protect, are they like union people. heck no.

The biggest bitch against teachers seem to be ,if there is a strike, it becomes an inconvenience to the parents who want a free baby sitter. Brighten up folks. They arn't baby sitters, they are training the kids to operate in the real world by getting the best education they can handle. some of those kids will be your doctors, lawyers, engineers and scientists.

This is very true. The unions have fought any government that was not NDP since they were formed and not very successfully. The plurality of voters does not want unelected union bosses setting the politcal adgenda eiher by themselves or their NDP lap dogs.

Carole James knows this and it the exact reason she is attempting to distance herself from the union bosses, who, incidently, never lose a cent of wages while a strike is on. It is amusing how quiet Carole is these days and how little comment this receives here.

rikia writes:

A bad teacher, even with years of documented incompetence, cannot be fired. The union fights it nearly every time and wins. A brilliant teacher, who goes the extra mile every day cannot be rewarded. How can this lead to greatness in our education system?

Therein lies the true problem with a 19th Century Union model being applied to the teaching profession.

Jinny and her aparatchiks would have their professional pay levels and supp from the union protection table too.

Sinclair correctly read the tea leaves last year and saw that the 'negotiation' level had been reached. This was all that the BC FED was going to support the teachers into. The further rabid actions of CUPE got some punishment, but that was not enough at all. If the parent or umbrella organization has called off the strike action, any wildcats such as CUPE did deserve MAJOR punishment. 2 Day loss of pay? They laugh that off in an instant.

This was why the 'freezing' of BCTF funds was the warning sign of real punishment.

Until a wildcat like CUPE did is really punished, say $10 million, or 'freezing' of all union assets for 6-9 months (just as negotiations are coming up) I expect that the BCTF will happily 'protest' again. I also fully expect that the Unions closer to governance, like CUPE, will also wildcat or support strike. Whereas the 'working' or 'private-sector' unions will be more reluctant to face some real punishment over the airy-fairy, imaginary, needs of teachers.

David asks:

Go Home School.

Children will miss nothing.

grub posts:

If, tangentially, learning conditions are improved, that's terrific. But, first, and foremost, the BCTF needs to ensure decent working conditions for its members.

This 'learning' conditions is code for more teachers, more superfluous education workers, more salaries and therefore - tangentally MORE dues paid into BCTF coffers.

If the working conditions were so bad, then leave! From what I understand, and the PR machine of of the BCTF says, that there is a worldwide shortage of teachers. Since this is soooo true then these teachers should find work instantly anywhere, like maybe Taiwan or the Phillipines or Hawaii or Somalia or Kenya or India.

I am sure they are all paying fabuous wages also!

switek wrote:

Absolutely, Simms and her apparatchiks with their foaming at the mouth techniques should not be doing their own negotiations; every other major union has professional negotiators that know the ropes, been at the table and are capable of progressing through a negotiation to settlement without completely bolluxing it all up.

I say that the Fed should consider pushing the BCTF out until they get a better barganing group, one that includes some 'hired' negotiators and PR people better at dealing with the spiders web known as collective barganing.

If the BCTF quits the Fed then they deserve the flaming mess that they will likely become.

Working Man observes:

Carole James knows this and it the exact reason she is attempting to distance herself from the union bosses, who, incidently, never lose a cent of wages while a strike is on. It is amusing how quiet Carole is these days and how little comment this receives here.

More than how quiet Carole James is now, is how painfully silent she and the entire new NDP caucus was during the Teachers strike last year. Carole seemed to be hidden in a broom closet, un-seen, un-heard next to the monkey covering his mouth. There, in that closet she stayed until the Ready report was going to come down. Then she was paraded after Sinclair had done the deed.

In this situation the, so-called, high level of support from parents makes me wonder how 'high' the 'level' of support really is? The union bosses know that this parental support will not translate into better conditions across the spectrum of union work, therefore they (the union leadership) will not put their real firepower into this conflict.

The teachers are dreaming in technicolor if they think that private-sector unions will take no pay or risk fines just so that there will be more teachers in the shrinking and vanishing schools...

teachers won't have the support of the public this time. did they really have it last time? note the question that was asked: 'do you support teachers?' now there's some good polling. when the ILLEGAL JOB ACTION was mentioned support dropped drastically.
people are sick of watching jinny whine about nothing. class size and composition is an issue b/c she knows the public doesn't understand it and therefore may swallow the rhetoric surrounding it. this time they'll be offered 14% over 3 years, plus the $3300 signing bonus. the public will say it sounds pretty good, but jinny will say it's not about the money. typical bullshite. it's about more teachers paying union dues so they can top up their coffers and continue to fight a gov't they're ideologically opposed to.

Elliot, note the questions I posted waaaay up top. Note also that none of our leftie friends have had enough courage to answer them. Rhetoric beats fact any time. I will repost them:

2. How many classes are overcrowded?

3. Exactly how many special needs kids are there in the system?

4. If the BCTF says "there are 40 students" in a class, exactly how many bodies are there in the room and his is the number calculated?

But we won't see answers to these questions, will we?

I will add another one: What was the question on your poll that gave you so much public support?

We won't see an answer here for that one, either.

We are in the dying days of the union, and this is their final stand. I suppose I can tolerate unions for the next 10-15 years, before they are extinct.

Globalization has come, and job security has gone! There is no job creation in union sectors, and industries with heavy unionization are part of the 20th century economy, not the 21st century economy.

The fact stands that our world is smaller than ever, and it is cheaper and more productive to outsource labour. A good of equal quality can be produced by the Chinese for a fraction of the cost. Whether,it be pulp and paper, textiles or manufactured goods. Further, the privatization of health-care is inevitable. It costs too much, and it isn't getting any cheaper.

I am not here to argue whether this is better for our society or not. Rather, to point out the diminishing influence of unions.

I suppose in 50 years, when the gap between the rich and the poor grows so large - we will see another revolt and see the cycle repeat itself!

Also - youth have zero interest in union participation.

Lefties - I may sound arrogant - but your time has come and gone! The Conservatives are in charge throughout Western Canada, Canada, the USA and Mexico.

The BC Liberal reign in BC will last sometime. All of the bitter pills have been swallowed. The massive cut-backs are over. Public anger has subsided.

I'd like to clear up a couple things regarding the leadership of the BCFED. Yes Jim Sinclair is the leader, but he is answerable to his executive council, he doesn't make decisions by himself. Anybody who has ever been to a convention will have noticed that there are at least 20 other people on stage with Jim.
These other people are leaders of the Unions in our province, BCTF, BCGEU, Steelworkers, CUPE, etc. They are all strong speakers and you can be sure that when their Union is on strike, they are communicating directly with Jim Sinclair. It is very naive to think Jim decides on his own when a strike should end. What I think is very unfortunate, is the leaders of these other Unions don't speak up at convention and tell thier members that they were involved in the final decision to end their strike and Jim swinging in the breeze.

And finally, as one poster pointed out earlier, it was the unions, your grandparents, that won you the rights you have today. No doubt the union system could use some reform, but I'll be damned if I'll willing to through it out and let the neojerks look after my interests. If the people demand change and actually get off their asses and get involved in their unions, then there will be change. The only thing you'll ever changed sitting on your couch, is the tv channel.

Unions are indeed on the way out. The days of going in at 7:59, punching a clock leaving at 3:59, buying a 2000 square foot house and a new truck every three years are gone. They only really existed for the twenty years between 1950-1970, our parent's generation and that of the grey hairs like Jim Sinclair.

Times have changed. Good incomes in our society now derive from a good education and possessing marketable skills. Dropping out in grade 10, working in the bush and goin' to the beer parlour was a way of life for union people for along time but it is now a time passed.

Expect lots of squealing on the subject as the old guard either drops dead because of their beer bellies or retire to the trailer park. The number of people in unions under the age of 40 is plummeting and very few people in that age group are terribly interested in having a grey hair tell them what to think.

People under 40 know there is a labour shortage right now and particularly for those with any kind of skill there are very, very good jobs out there.

The labour "movement" (and I can hardly equate any organisation as conservative as big labour being called a "movement") and their NDP lap dogs need to realise this and adapt or else they will slide into oblivion. Have a look at where Jinny is from and how well the "labour movement" is doing there.

Oh, and why not answer my questions?

Lefties - I may sound arrogant - but your time has come and gone! The Conservatives are in charge throughout Western Canada, Canada, the USA and Mexico.

The BC Liberal reign in BC will last sometime. All of the bitter pills have been swallowed. The massive cut-backs are over. Public anger has subsided. wrotemabellbc

mabellbc...you are not paying attention to the changing direction of the tides...remember the tsunami when the tide went out so extremely far...retreated from view....just an ordinary day and hardly anyone noticed...but the power of the waves building up...unseen... far from shore....

...so when you say "public anger has subsided"...yeah, like the dangerous pull of the tide going farther and farther out...it will return with unexpected force and sooner than you think...

...if I were you I would head for higher ground...and I mean that in more ways than one.

That is exactly what I'm doing! I'm off to Calgary where I will receive nearly a $12,000 raise, better benefits & more funding for my program which means I will need to spend less of my own money on supplies, books, current texts, etc for my students.

From what I understand, and the PR machine of of the BCTF says, that there is a worldwide shortage of teachers.

There are not enough teachers to fill the sub lists in the lower mainland & UBC did not fill all the available spaces in the Education program this year or last year. School boards from all over North America come to BC to recruit teachers, so yes there is a shortage.

"very few people in that age group are terribly interested in having a grey hair tell them what to think."

Cool, they can repeat the same mistakes!

Some of in our 40s shut up and listen when our elders speak.

As to unions, they're not about boats and cars and houses and beer parlours. You've mistook the shiny baubles of capitalism for the prize, instead of the fair treatment and fair wage that unions strive to get their members. Don't feel bad though, a lot of people who aren't union-tolerant tend to rely on those old stereotypes as a way of propping up their faulty perceptions.

Lynn - you may be right, I disagree though. I think it is irrelevant to compare labour economics to a tsunami. Only time will tell!

Stump - "fair" wage. My definition of "fair" when it comes to "wage" is market. Is it not "fair" to pay an employee what he/she is worth - i.e. what the market is prepared to pay? Now - the BCTF is outside this arguement given that they would make a lot more if education were opened to the private sector - atleast good teachers would.

In my opinion, unions are merely the mirror image of a greedy corporation. The corporation wants more profits for its shareholders' while paying less for its inputs.

Union members want higher wages/benefits for working less. Sorry Stump, people from all walks of life are inherently greedy.

The big difference is that corporations actually acknowledge that profit drives their decisions!

Elliot:

There was a time when I would have given minimal credence to such drivel. However, the aging, greying teacher cohort has been around too long to be led by anyone. These people are pissed off. They've been either ignored or kicked around too long. They were ready to kick some Campbell ass last fall and are, I suspect, ready to do so again.

As to Jinny, I hold that her major mistake during the fall walkout was to be too visible. The image of that walkout had to be the "average" teacher commenting to the press about how ticked off he/she was. The last thing the teachers needed was Jinny pushing her face and her message in front of every available TV camera. All she had to say was: "I'll let my members' actions speak for themselves."

murdock:

How out of touch are you?!

Do you seriously call teachers' pay levels "professional"? Look, there was a time when teachers made significantly more money than many in society (firefighters and police are two examples that come mind right now). I don't mean to start a "who deserves more money than someone else" argument, as that only serves to divide working people who need to stand united. I simply wish to point out that you'd be hard-pressed to find a group who's incomes have been eroded to the extent that teachers' have.

But "professional" pay levels? Hardly!

murdock:

Occasionally you get things right.

As to your assertion: COUNT ON IT! I'm there with bells on!

murdock:

Clearly, the Merle Haggard, Okie from Muskokie, school of social action.

Guess what murdock, some people actually prefer to stay in order to bring about change. We may not like the political scene; should we leave? Or should we work to change things?

"Love it or leave it." is such a stupid, childish approach to human dilemmas.

murdock:

NEWS FLASH! Check out the personnel at BCTF HQ: there are professional negotiators on staff. Whether or not they're able to keep the president in check is another matter.

mabellbc:

Yada yada yada... Now please consult just about any and every measure of economic prosperity you can find. Please note, the leaders on just about every measure are: Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden....

How do you explain that with your warped "globalization" economic paradigm? You can't. You can't because you paradigm is bankrupt. And if you don't believe it, why don't you bet the family farm by investing heavily in Chinese industry. And then watch as social unrest, fueled by income disparity, and corruption of public and private apparachiks, whittle away at your investments.

If you believe the globalization bunk, then you learned nothing from your history classes. Do the terms "industrial revolution" and the malaise of the English working classes in the 1800's mean nothing to you?

Those who ignore... are doomed to repeat...

mabellbc:

It's always a pleasure when you get something right. Greedy corporations, unchecked, are very nasty indeed.

grub
Big tip of the hat!
Man, you are one righteous dude. This thread is like playing whackamole...the suckers keep tunneling from underground with the same lame crap. Sincere compliments for your good work. There was an interesting article in the New Republic called “Trade Imbalance” by John B. Judis earlier this week about how utterly ineffectual free trade, the WTO and globalization in general are as a means of actually assisting poor and developing nations. For anyone who cares to look, you have to register but it is online.

Someone asked these questions.

1 What is the average class size in BC?

2. How many classes are overcrowded?

3. Exactly how many special needs kids are there in the system?

4. If the BCTF says "there are 40 students" in a class, exactly how many bodies are there in the room and his is the number calculated?

But we won't see answers to these questions, will we?

1. The BC government knows how many studens there are in each class, or at lteast they claim to know.
4. The number of bodies shown as students wouldn't include the teacher, even I know that.Very few teachers aids exist since Gorod took over.
3. The number of special needs students in the whole system doesn't tell us much. How many are in the class, what is the level of the class, are things that really count. If a kid can't speak the language being used one must figure that child would have special needs.Maybe a hearing problem or can't read at teh class level, the possibilities for specail needs is huge.
2. Overcrowding is a interesting argument. What grade level, what is the subject, might be questions that would be involved.

There is, I understand a max number of children in the very lowest grades. There used to be the same provisions in the collective agreement or so I understand.

I'm no teacher but have taught technical subjects both in and out of the military. Our students were highly motivated and none were kids who havn't had breakfast that day. Most classes of around ten, we never got more than 20. Any more would make evaluation pretty tough. I've lectured to some crowds as high as 300. All adults, all tradespeople, all interested.We were not teaching young kids.

Yes teachers speak of well over 30 in some classes.

Well, playing the rules of capitalism which "The Big Boys" go by. the price of a product has little relationship to its actual "cost of production", which includes the "labour cost" embodied in it, but actually by whatever means or deceit they can manipulate, beg, borrow, force, lie, cajole or otherwise get the market to stand stil for, cough up and bear. (Which is why, as I saw an example of on TV the other night, a suit coat which cost 28 cents to make in China, sells here for $348.) Which is, of course, the real source of profit and the theft of "benefit share" which the capitalist accrues to his own "private interest", stolen from those Chinese workers, of course, and us.

So, first of all, "Labour" should not allow itself to be held to, by the system, nor should it submit to a higher expectation or standard than is otherwise the norm for capitalism and "the capitalist". As much as capitalism is organized into "union-like employer structures", such as Chambers of Commerce and sundry form of merchant, industrial and other "business association" to help him secure his/her private/collective interests, so to do workers similarly have the right to organize themselves into trade unions, and act to secure their own sectional and class interests.

That shite aside, then acting through his/her "labour" organization or however they can collectively and in concert, the worker has no less right than do the "petroleum and refinery producers" to act to offer or withdraw their collective labour product , as the only real option available to them with any real "power potential" to secure the best price and benefit for their collective "labour product" on the market for labour. That the potential employers of their labour, along with their Neoconazi allies, might find it to their greater advantage to force individual workers to face them alone or singly, is neither here nor there. That is in their interest, not ours. As the capitalist always acts in his own interests, collectively with other capitalists where necessary to "organize markets" and class relationships to their benefit, the worker should therefore ignore their whining and protestations, and act in their own "profit" interest.

So the whining and bleating of these Neoconazi apologists for "the system" here need only simply be ignored for crying over their spilled milk. They must only be prevented from spilling our milk. They wish it, of course, that the rules that are established by the ruling class, though their politicians and lawyers, and which they think should naturally be accepted even by the working class also. We, on the other hand, share no such real interest. Though there is that ancient "tendency" of the slave to "submit", to be overcome, no doubt.

To which we need only collectively reply, "Screw you. What is fair for the capitalist is also as much for the worker."

Continued next post...

From previous post...

That said, I even take it another step, and advocate it likewise for my working brothers and sisters, that this very system itself, which this ruling class and its Neoconazi minions would have us all genuflect to, and submit to the rules which they themselves continually attempt to lay down here, for us to obey, we need only say, "Fug you!"

Then we need only add, " We are declaring a new game and a new set of rules, consider you them legal or illegal, moral or immoral, professional or unprofessional. We are going to do what you yourselves do; (a) organize our own power in only our own "collective" working class interest, (b) act regardless of your instituted legality or illegality to advance our own interests and "collective power", and (c) reshape and remodel democracy to limit your "private interest" power, and give "pride and power of place" to a new democracy within the economy and society which "gives precedence to the larger collective social interest of working people, communities, women and children, and the greater natural environment that is necessary to sustain them".

Simply put, in the world taking shape and the future course that must be struck as a consequence of that, there are other interests of the "whole" which must be advanced over those of the private "greed mongers" that are Corporate Capitalism's spawn.

That approach and view of things short circuits the need to reply point by point ad infinitum to their mundane, self-serving and repetitively repeated arguments. It is enough that they are full of shite, tied to the current "private" market and value system, and the enemies of our future.

Otherwise it is that they keep us ever on the defensive, when we really, really need to swing over onto the "offensive" and wipe them off the political map. Period. (Maybe, if they behave themselves, we may let them occupy the subservient position our class and interests have since the time of the industrial revolution.)

Maybe. But only if they are really, really nice, and suckhole big time. 8-D

Hi Lynn.

Keep whacking those Neoconazi moles. 8-D

'They were ready to kick some Campbell ass last fall and are, I suspect, ready to do so again.'
that's gotta be the laugh of the month. the libs knew exactly how long the strike would last and exactly how much money they would save. they also knew the timing was completely wrong b/c the next election will be in the FALL of 2010, a full four years after the ILLEGAL JOB ACTION. sinclair wanted to test the waters for a general strike and realized it wouldn't fly so he bailed. they played sims like a stratovinsky and will do so again. can't wait.

Coyote
Not to ignore your good work too bro - you and grub make an excellent team
Thanks for the compliment this morning, btw.

a stratovinsky????

You too, Lynn, felicitations!

Elliot:

If you think that Sims can actually "lead" BC teachers, you're in for a rude awakening. These old codgers will not be led. They'll strike when they want, and for however long they want, regardless what Sims wants or wishes.

A lesson in demographics again: Not only are the bulk of BC teachers older, they've also mostly paid off their mortgages (it's the nature of that demographic). Most of their children have left home and been educated (again, a nature of that demographic). Bottom-line, the bulk of BC's teachers have very little to lose by a prolonged strike (make it a year if you have to).

And having nothing to lose is a wonderful feeling -- FREEDOM! (recall your hippy anthem: "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose") It's the feeling of being able to say "ki$$ my a$$!" with impunity. Freedom is being able to thumb your nose at those who would assume to dictate the rules -- what are you going to do about it buddy?!.

Last fall, the teachers went back, not because Sims or Sinclair had a say in it, but because, on the picket-line, they felt they had won the PR battle (with no help at all from Sims, IMHO) with the government, over the hearts and minds of parents.

Having won the PR battle, I suspect most teachers see it as a case of "the ball is in Campbell's court". It's up to him to make the right moves. If he doesn't, I fear teachers will be less charitable this coming fall.

FREEDOM!

Coyote - you are obviously quite an intellect. You shouldn't fight the system, you'd make much more money if you didn't.

Whether capitalism breeds evils (which it does) is irrelevant to this discussion. Capitalism is alive and well and you can accept today's realities - or continue to post away on tyee forums.

The problem for you is that most people are content with society and the opportunities it provides. While your post does probably reflect some realities, it is an incredibly pessimistic view of the world.

You should drop the bong and adopt some productive habits.

It is a good world out there Coyote - we in North America have created the best society in the world....period. You are not well-travelled if you would disagree.

Mabelbc
Yesterday, as I recall, you were pretty exercised and pessimistic about the system too - on another thread on this site. What happened? Seems to me you told me a few weeks ago when I expressed similar sentiments about the hopelessness of change that you were the first to disagree and laud the utility of making one's views known.
Don't give up the ship.
The fact that we have a 'good' society is all the more reason why it needs to be defended and strengthened, don't you know?

mabellbc:

mabellbc, your response to Coyote lays bare your pitiful grasp of what it means to be human. For you, it is clearly about money. How pathetic is that?

In his postings, Coyote speaks to issues of equity, equality, morality and ethics. Where, in the larger scheme of things, is money when compared to any one of these qualities?

But, go ahead, live your life in the aisles of WalMart, indulging yourself in TV-commercial induced consumerism. If that's your definition of a "good world", you're welcome to it. Me? I'd rather work towards a fairer world.

Capitalism may well be a reality but, if left unchecked, it breeds everything that Coyote would have us work against.

My old lady read this and said, " She's right, you know. But what she doesn't know is, you just can't do it. It ain't you."

Now, whether I'd really make more money or not, I don't know, and funny, never really cared that much either. I mean, I want enough to live contentedly on and I expect good wages and union conditions , for me and the Mrs, but frankly, that's always been enough for me. My tastes and needs are really quite simple. And I like my life simple; a good woman, my kids, money for a beer in my pocket, good tools, my bikes, and a comfortable place to live that I own. And time to spend in the great outdoors. That's just me. (Though a horse and gear, and pasture to keep it in would be nice too.)

And its why, I guess, though I've always been a militant trade unionist, (even when I wasn't working union), and hostile to capitalism, which has often put me at odds with the trade union brass as well, no doubt, :-)I really have been content with just being a worker-, handy with my hands and tools, and given to the simple pleasures and usefulness of manual labour.

"The System" never really had anything to offer that I really wanted, at least enough that I was prepared to kiss its ass for it.

I really have been quite content being a working class outsider. :-)

Thanks brothers GWest and Grub, for all the fine words. Always a pleasure to stand alongside you brothers, and my sister Lynn, no bloody doubt. Always did have a weakness for women, Lynn. 8-) Even more than shiny cowboy boots and whiskey. 8-)

Besides, capitalism sucks.

Seems to met that all you're interested in doing is talking about a fairer world........

Now you see mabellbc, that's why Coyote gets paid the big bucks... just not all of them in a currency you would understand.

And the ability to see and then explain the world in these terms, not only is evidence of that fine intellect you refer to, mabellbc, but makes Coyote a very wealthy man in the true definition of the word.

I will say no more, gotta keep him humble as well. :-)

Quote:
Coyote - you are obviously quite an intellect. wrote mabellbc

And the ability to see and then explain the world in these terms, not only is evidence of that fine intellect you refer to, mabellbc, but makes Coyote a very wealthy man in the true definition of the word.

I will say no more, gotta keep him humble as well. :-)

Except that it's nutty, it won't work and it ain't gonna happen.

Ruby posts:

If this is so true, then why the union pretense at all?

If the shortage is sooo extreme then what does any teacher need a union for?

If thier skills are so 'in demand' and 'in short supply' then the employers would be lining up to sign on anyone whom has the credentials. Sort of like the fast response the doctors get?

I say that the supposed teacher shortage is false.

I say that anyone can teach, it is a passion for some, drudgery for others and it is the school system that has tricked parents into taking the 'easy' way.

Time for more parents to wake up to this fact, learning can happen anywhere, at any time, and without direct assistance. Guidance, correction, perhaps some suggestions for further study; but a full time every day teacher? No.

noleftnutter:

And you would know that how....?

Grub complains:

So why the connection to unions at all?

Again I ask; if the Teachers are so worth what they demand, why are they bothering to do this in a Union old-school method?

I have a suspicion, I admit that I am not 'in the room' nor do I have personal ties.

I suspect that the leadership of the BCTF is not fully supported by more than just the bare 50% of the majority of teachers. I see the BCTF as a large and unweildy organization that is being torn in two, the demands and struggles are bringing the organization into conflict with all other branches, businesses, and groups that it comes into contact with. Because of this division the single-face that is needed in true negotiations will not be present and the bizzare hydra-headed response that Jinny Simms had during the last showdown will repeat itself. Where one day she was following a sane and reasonable course then the next she was out breaking her word (to not speak in the media) or blathering on about some item of contention at the negotiating table. These are not professional negotiating tactics, so I do not see them as getting a professional response.

The 'way' of doing schooling during the 20th century must change, the end of 'professional unions' (what an oxymoron) is just one of the changes.

murdock:

What is it that right-wing goof-offs don't understand about --dare I say it {AGAIN!) -- DEMOGRAPHICS?!!!

Is the notion of a baby-boom a foreign concept to you? Are you under some mistaken notion that baby-boomers don't age and don't have a desire to retire?

Wake up! School staffs are populated by baby-boomer teachers. They're all planning to retire. Depending where you are in the province, there is, or there soon will be, a teacher shortage. This is not brain surgery we're talking about, just simple arithmetic.

The scariest thing in the world, after all, an honest man who won't be bought.

murdock, in response to low wages for teachers asks:

Because, we need only look to most private schools to see that parents are not willing to pay (whether it be tuition or taxes) teachers a decent, "professional" wage. Private school teachers generally make significantly less money than their public school counterparts.

I hate to think what they'd make if there weren't a public sector with a union to try to establish tolerable pay levels.

However, more to the point regarding your question: were it not for the heavy hand of governments feeling free to tear up legal contracts and denying unions the right to engage in free collective bargaining with reasonable impasse resolution mechanisms, teachers' wages in BC would not be so far behind those in Alberta and Ontario.

murdock, examine your history books to see what extreme governments -- at both ends of the political spectrum (fascist and communist) -- have done to unions. Then ask yourself: is that the kind of society you want to live in?

As for the fact of the "reality" of capitalism somehow shielding it, and protecting it forever from the future, primitive tribal societies as the dominant social form were also real long, long ago (indeed, some still manage to survive here and there in isolated places). They lasted as the dominant social form, possibly the longest of all. Likewise the socio-economic form of slavery in Egypt, Greece and Rome, to mention but a few, last for thousands of years. And even the social system of feudalism/ landed aristocracies/monarchies which arose after the collapse of Roman slavery in around 476 AD, lasted until the rise of capitalism.

Capitalism has similarly been having its day, since around the time of the English Civil War of 1642-49, and the eventual establishment of the Industrial Revolution which finally and completely replaced feudalism, save for a "figurehead" monarchy in the i8th Century.

And this too shall pass.

Indeed, were it not for the rise of this Neoconazi State, capitalism would still be in the postwar prosperity period, where the working class was not as hampered as currently, in its ability to maintain worker/consumer purchasing power, which kept a healthy demand pull on the economy, and the working class content, even supportive of the capitalist system by and large. The collapse of which period of adequate working class incomes and the maintenance of the wealth levelling principles of taxation based on ability to pay which encouraged broader based wealth distribution, that comes hand in hand with the rise of political neoconservatism, that arises from out of the very ruling class of capitalism itself, in conjunction with its handmaiden economist advisors, such as Friedman and the, how e're contradictorily named "Neo-Liberal" school of economics, has led to the greater rise of the poor, child poverty and prostitution on our streets, generalized economic insecurity and declinging incomes for all working class strata, and the collapse of the underpinning social services that encouraged the levelling of the great Dickensonian social discrepencies between the haves and have nots.

For all their whining and failure to understand the new period here, it is the Neoconservatives themselves who have created the current state of social and economic affairs, and the resulting rising atmosphere of class warfare. And it will not be stopped with their mere arguments here, which attempt to shift blame to its victims. Indeed, it is now a great ocean going tanker come upon a collision situation, that it cannot now avoid for the time and distance needed to turn away, even assuming it actually wants to.

They dare not ever admit to this, of course, and would rather the blame be passed on to the trade union movement, but it is nonetheless "they" themselves who have chosen to return to the pre-war, moving towards the depression era situation, which was described by their much hated Karl Marx, as where the ruling class itself acts as its own grave digger.

It is they who have brought this rising period of class conflict upon themselves, for however much they seek to run from this underlying and fundamental reality.

We are but the messengers. :-)

whoa whoa..gotta weigh in here..

firstly...earth to mabel,nutty,murdock, little elliot ..
Surely you folks know by now sumpthins` goin` on?

you guys are like really really behind..you`ve got a lot of catchin` up to do..

Grub..Ten out of Ten, Lynn, GW, coyote..likewise... you may be excused.

my wife just came back from the BCTF AGM where she attended as the Social Justice Representative for School District #48.
She is the BCTF rep on the School Planning Council (S.P.C.)..

If you have any questions she would be happy to try and answer them.
Fire Away.
Her estimate Murdock on the % of support for the leadership of the BCTF is at the least 90%..overwhelming actually were her words.

A maybe humourous aside: Shirley Bond (Education Minister) was here in Squamish for a photo-op at one of the Elementary schools (Mamquam) two weeks back...We`d had quite a dump of snow the night previous (45cm.).
As the Honorable minister was touring the school...the roof began to leak...badly
The ceiling tiles then began to start falling down...they quickly shuffled our startled honorable one outside where she was to view one of the many "portables" in the district (Howe Sound). When the teacher had finished shovelling a pathway for her honorableness to access and view the portable (30+ kids ,no washroom facilities) she had to decline..she was wearing ..get it.. highheels my wife commented it was too bad she couldn`t have seen what its like in there.

We have Nancy Campbell here as the Principal of the High School. This is a small town..and I`m not gonna do it..I`m not gonna relay stories here. We did wonder how the vice-principal who was so well respected by colleagues ,students and parents alike was passed over when the previous principal retired. Just another mystery here in Lotus Land I guess.

So fire away....Make My Day.

bob the cat

grub exclaims!

Is the notion of a baby-boom a foreign concept to you? Are you under some mistaken notion that baby-boomers don't age and don't have a desire to retire?

Wake up! School staffs are populated by baby-boomer teachers. They're all planning to retire. Depending where you are in the province, there is, or there soon will be, a teacher shortage. This is not brain surgery we're talking about, just simple arithmetic.

I am not a right wing goof off, nor do I call you any names, so please stop doing this else the nature of the conversation will continue to degrade.

I am well aware of demographics, and also well aware that a lot of under 30's teachers are awaiting the day that the 'supposed' retirements come to pass. Some are in their 40's and have had to be chasing 'public positions' for a decade from school district to district since the most senior teachers in each district have the 'choice' of their positions.

I repeat, if the teachers really think that they will be in such demand then let the system really wear down. Let the retirments leave the holes that they think will be there, then the employer will be going begging for a solution. Then the barganing unit for the teachers will be in a rock-solid position. Were this really the case then the best bet for Ms. Simms would be to either to SHUT UP and let the failures start or leave the BC Fed and push for a kind of Teacher representation within governing circles like the Doctors have.

Continued association with big labour will only see the teachers treated as interchangable units, one is the same as another. Like all union members on the assembly line.

This is not a 'professional' model, nor should they be treated as 'professional' if they continue the association.

And you would know that how....? - Grub

Well to begin, fairer is an odd word to use. I've looked at the posts you've made in this thread and from what I can tell, fairer to you means the traditional lefty wealth redistribution process wherby the local elites seem to know better then the rest of us how to "fairly" distribute the proceeds of our productivity.

You're committed to equalizing the outcomes regardless of the starting point, the hard work, the sacrifice, the good fortune that individuals may have, so, what's fair about that?

Lastly, your suggestions seems to indicate that it's others that should make sacrifices to achieve your ogjectives and I haven't heard of anything that you've done yet to make this world a fairer place......

bob the cat

I'll start with math bob, if the average class size in the province is 27 students and some classes have more than 27 students how many classes have fewer than 27 students?

grub continues:

ohhh, really?

please give some specifics, as I am aware of three teachers whom have gleefully turned their backs to the public system, for better pay, smaller classes and an overall better work experiece in the private system.

they would make what the market would bear, moreover the really effective teachers and classroom leaders would be making far more than the general instructors. Again as in all professions the best are paid the most.

murdock:

At this stage we're at the "my anecdote versus your anecdote" as I'm citing private school teachers I know, describing their circumstances.

I'm sure you'll be quick to point out my sources' errors with a speedy correction with specifics. I'm alaways willing to be educated.

ok nutso

lets say take ..Physics 12..ok

two schools in the same district...

One big school
One small school
still with me nutguy?

Ok Physics 12 in large school= 32 students
" " " """ small school= 4 students

heres the tricky part..32+4=36 students

Average class size for Physics 12 in that district is...
36 phys. 12 students divided by 2 schools= 18 students
ONLY 18 per Phys. 12 class in Wahoo District.

Teachers often refer to " The Grey Area " which is now much larger than before. The "Grey Area" are those students who are not "categorized" as requiring teacher assistants and therefore not funded however they offer special challenges to the teacher and require more attention than your "average" (whatever that is) student. Using this method of averaging... factor in the "Grey Area" and the up to 6-8 special needs kids some classes have.

In my recollection of elementary school many years ago..kids who now attend regular class would have and were sent off to special schools.
It goes by average in the district.

murdock:

Oh! Of course! Like lawyers make what the market will bear -- after restricting entry into the profession (ever heard of LSAT?). Like doctors make what the market will bear? What would doctors make if they didn't restrict entry into that profession.

Stop already with your market!

murdock, if you didn't get so stridently angry in every attempt at a response you might get a reply across.

Anger over the fact that yet another group in society has proven they are better off remembering they are part of the labour force, no matter how you try to couch it, is so telling murdock.

Pay attention. The teachers are trying to teach you something.

True professionals will always insist on proper treatment. It is the fool who argues otherwise.

Oh, I see, for every class that's larger than the average there's one that's smaller than the average? Gee, I like math.

Now, on to nultiple choice -

If I am unable to enshrine my demands for absolute control of my work environment in my labour contract, I can -
A) Hold my breath and stamp my feet until I turn blue

B) stage an illegal walkout

While we're at it, lets do definitions. What is the difference between a negotiated privlege and a right?

BTC - here's another definition question - why do they call it "free collective bargaining" if the employer isn't free to negotiate with any bargaining unit that can legally fulfill the job requirements?

Exactly how many? Of all classes in BC, how many exceed the standards set by the Ministry?

Exaclty how much money has been "cut" from education budgets in BC?

Exactly how much has been cut from all government spending since 2001?

dude..thats how you get an average...

One teacher is dealing with a class of 32 ..another at another school with 4...
Average in the district is a perfectly manageable 18.

right: a thing one may legally or morally claim; the state of being entitled to a privilege or immunity or authority to act(a right of reply; human rights)

privilege: a special right or advantage available only to a particular person or a group of people or: the rights and advantages possessed by the rich and powerful (had led a life of luxury and privilege)

So whats your point?

Eclipse of Reason

Eclipse of Reason deals with the concept of "reason" within the history of Western philosophy. Horkheimer defines true reason as rationality. He details the difference between objective and subjective reason and states that we have moved from objective to subjective. Objective reason deals with universal truths that dictate that an action is either right or wrong. Subjective reason takes into account the situation and social norms. Actions that produce the best situation for the individual are "reasonable" according to subjective reason. The movement from one type of reason to the other occurred when thought could no longer accommodate these objective truths or when it judged them to be delusions. Under subjective reason, concepts lose their meaning. All concepts must be strictly functional to be reasonable. Because subjective reason rules, the ideals of a society, for example democratic ideals, become dependent on the "interests" of the people instead of being dependent on objective truths.

Writing in 1946, Horkheimer was strongly influenced by the Nazi legacy in Germany. He outlined how the Nazis had been able to make their agenda appear "reasonable", but also issued a warning about the possibility of this happening again. Horkheimer believed that the ills of modern society are caused by the misuse and misunderstanding of reason: if people use true reason to critique their societies, they will be able to identify and solve their problems.
thi

NLN
you sure ask weird questions
Thats just dumb. see the above.

I`m tired..i`m headin` out...ask more questions tomorrow...
meaning of the universe...why are we here, who are we, where are we going...whatever..is God dead?

Quick, somebody throw the Cat a life preserver, he's drowning in here......

Each bus that travels the streets of the Lower Mainland will soon be
controlled by the passengers who will form a committee which will include
the bus driver, according to an announcement by the Minister of
Transportation.

³Yes, indeed, decisions about bus travel are best made closest to the
passenger level. Therefore we are moving beyond the traditional concept of
buses being provided for the public good, and inviting more flexibility at
the individual bus level. Passengers will be given control over all
bus-related expenses, including repairs and hiring drivers. If they run
short of funds, they have the flexibility to raise money in any way they see
fit. They can advertise, have concession stands, 50/50 draws, whatever it
takes. They can hire non-union drivers, since we know how inflexible and
old-fashioned those unions can be, demanding expensive luxuries such as
seniority and benefits. Those bus drivers seem to only want to take tried
and true routes whereas we believe collaboration with passengers works best.
Each Bigshot Leadership on Buses (BLOB) committee can change the route if it
chooses, but our accountability program, while ensuring that they are funded
for no more kilometers than their original route allowed, will publish
comparisons ranking distances traveled by each bus. This exciting new
venture allows the passengers to decide how best to spend those public
transportation dollars.²

The Minister hinted that the next initiative may see airline passengers
having a bigger say in decisions made in air traffic control towers.

ok one more bit of news..

G West:

I like to think that I have a realistic viewpoint. I was merely pointing out my perceptions.

For the record, I am a right-wing capitalist. I think we should be more inter-twined with the USA.

Grub:

Your point makes some sense. However, you forget to mention the need for quality controls in the medical and legal fields.

Also, for each I disagree. There are thousands of low-pay lawyers out there. If there were a massive increase in the supply of lawyers, the best would still make their money, as people pay for quality and value added services. There would only be more poor lawyers.

It is sort of like the NHL - there are thousands Canadians that would play in the NHL. However, only a select few provide the services necessary to play in the NHL - where people are willing to pay the high ticket prices.

RE: Bob the Cat's post creating a public transport metaphor, a bus, to show how the Campbell government has driven public education to such a dilapidated state.

Fantastic!

Five years ago, when BC education was at its historical height, the Campbell government managed to trash the system in favour of following US models of delivery (which are no cheaper to deliver and provide much worse results). No wonder teachers and parents are angry!

I would like to drive the bus a step further by saying that they have done similar things to public health care with the creation of health regions.

By what standards?

BTC - perhaps you missed it, we already have that system is place, it's called the automobile and a much greater majority of people prefer it over transit....

It's just amazing to come back to this issue each morning to find the same fools ranting away.

For some of them it must have more power than a strong coffee or a hit of Exlax because the stuff just flows onto the screen.

May I urge people like noleftnutter, mabellbc and Working Man do something worthwhile, like go find a job or something.

You guys are like trained seals. Toss up the word teacher, health care worker, social worker, virtually anyone in a helping profession and you guys see spooks, commies, white, middleclass protectionists, socialists and NDPers ech and every time.

Must be real interesting living with any of you some mornings.

Do you scream at the paper delivery kid if she's a minute late too?

mabellbc
That was obvious. Your earlier writing about the wonders of ‘world-class’ NPA Vancouver actually put me in mind of another avatar of your breed, the estimable Grace McCarthy. Your tepid concern about the way the free enterprise capitalists are currently running this province was pretty much of a dead giveaway. A few letters of objection probably won't do the deal – even if you can convince someone else to write them; but, no worries, your soul mates in Victoria will likely continue to thrive even if a few of their compromised gophers end up under house arrest for a month or two. In fact, they’re really not liberals at all and I’m sure you’d be more comfortable thinking of them as Socreds. Oh well, property values will probably go on rising and you can continue to count your money.

As for closer ties with the United States - might I suggest you move on down there - you'd probably be much happier and we could continue to try to build a humane alternative here to a society that, for the most part, couldn't give more than passing attention to the welfare of about 40% of its citizens. I understand, furthermore, and this is from right-wing sources so you ought to respect the opinion, that the Americans have the most wonderful system of medical care.

You obviously stumbled in here one dark night when you were looking for something else altogether.

I know you won't believe this, but I wish you well.
Cheers.

murdock says:

...and you'd be wrong....

mabellbc on supply management of lawyers and doctors:

Also, for each I disagree. There are thousands of low-pay lawyers out there.

Let's address quality first. There are Canadians, for example, who don't have the marks to get into medical school in Canada but are able to study in Ireland. Once finished their degree in Ireland, they then come to Canada to work. So, mabellbc, exactly how does supply management of doctors in Canada ensure quality?

Bottom line is that medical school in Canada may well be the most difficult to get into anywhere on this globe (USA appears also to be quite hard). My question: are the citizens of France, Germany etc suffering due to poor quality of doctors? Great PR by the CMA: you bought it hook, line, and sinker.

As to quality in lawyers: give me a break! Anyone who can read (and remember) can be a lawyer. There was a time when one apprenticed to be a lawyer -- because there's precious little "academic" about it. The problem is, the average citizen is all but "barred" from doing their own legal work. If you can read and have a brain you can do a lawyer's work. But the system won't let you. I think it's called supply management to keep wages high.

It's interesting to read the rightwingnutters here speaking of the sanctity of the "capitalist marketplace", like it is the entirely objective and divine hand of God, set up to arbitrate all human economic events and relationships. What complete and utter balderdash they speak in tongues, with their heads spinning on their shoulders.

"Markets" are human creations, and no less fallible, certainly in the current corporate capitalist world, much influenced by their behaviours, partisan influences and decision making at the levels of such as international commodity and other product cartels, such as say the major refinery and petroleum producers, the World Bank, the WTF, and even such international gatherings of world corporate and state leaders as the Bildenberg Group etc. etc. So the reality is, the corporate marketplace is much influenced or polluted, depending on your viewpoint, by their decisions and manipulations all the time.

Conveniently forgotten in this mix however, and in this self-serving notion of "the market" which seeks to exclude us in the working class, except as some packaged and static entity like we were some simple inanimate commodity called "labour", is that we are in fact much more than that-, how e're much they would rather we were silenced and controlled in the corner of social and market events. For we in our living and breathing context have our own interests and needs too, and especially when we are no less organized than the modern corporation, say into trade unions for example, are no less capable of exerting "our" own interests in a broad range of ways and choices on the marketplace, to influence and control the demand and price for our "product" etc, which is our labour, be it manual or intellectual.

So while it may be in the interests of the capitalist marketplace to attempt to sideline, marginalize and in all wise control us, or reduce as to a "passive commodity", in order to prevent their own "ruling class ox" being gored, it is certainly not incumbant upon us, or in our interests that we buy into this partisan notion of theirs, about the true nature and workings of the "global market".

Indeed, we would be truly damned fools if we did. For we are much more than merepassive commodities, for all their protestations to the contrary, and we are certainly as well capable of demonstrating that to them-, anytime we so choose.

Stick this ruling class beholden notion of "the market" where the sun doesn't shine, will you. Perhaps it may grow into a rose bush spiked with thorns.

Coyote:

Indeed, we would be truly damned fools if we did. For we are much more than merepassive commodities,

Eloquently put. Even Peter Drucker, guru to the management classes warned: "when you hire a man, you do not just hire a hand...." His point, like yours, was that humans -- since they have feelings, values, and intellect -- should not be treated as commodities. This management guru also pointed out that corporations treat their employees as commodities at their peril, since these thinking, feeling commodities can turn around and bite the bosses in the ass (it starts with working to rule, theft, sabotage, sick days -- but the corporations don't get it!).

Unfortunately, Drucker has slowly gone out of fashion in favor of the goofs at the Fraser Institute.

Coyote on how markets are not some "fact" of nature:

Your point puts me in mind of something many of these right-wingers might be able to relate to. On the assumption (my bad), that many of these "free" market advocates are also Bible-thumpers, I'd ask them to turn to their Bibles for advice on markets.

One would think (I would, anyway), that the freeest market of all would be the one for money -- transactions really can't be much simpler than that (essentially, no issues of quality of product). Anyway, perhaps the Bible-thumpers can help me out: wasn't there a Biblical prohibition on money transactions? Further, using scripture as a basis, didn't the English of earlier times prohibit Christians from lending money, while leaving that very un-Christian activity to Jewish bankers?

Those markets were not free. No markets are free! As Coyote points out, ALL markets function according to the principles of the people who control that market (can you spell WTO, NAFTA, EU, ....???)

Drucker's point is very appropriate to these times. I think there may be even more to it that just the chance they'll bite you if you aren't nice to them.

All activities are human activities. The world we play in is the human world. Not exclusively, but you know what I mean.

We interact with the world in very few ways, through our families and through our work. What we do in those realms adds our own substance to the nature of the world. The results of those activities will pass to the future. They will be very hard to erase. There's a deep meaning to work.

When you hire somebody you make a partnership with them as important as a marriage. Different but just as significant to the lives of everyone involved. Your work will change their lives, their families lives, maybe forever. Their work will change yours. It will be put down to you by posterity, It will be your legacy. Success or failure of your work will rest on them.

This relationship must be a deep committed bond of honour, or you run the risk of being judged by history as having had none.

I don't mean you own each other or bear responsibilities beyond the bounds of your contracts, just that within those bounds if you do each other dirt, your life's work will inevitably be soiled.

Grub, Coyote
I think there are only a few things that actually unite the right anymore. Clearly, there is a blind belief in the powers of the market, a belief that, if they knew their Adam Smith very well, is not really a feature of classical market theory anyway. Added to this is greed – an element that you two have more than adequately treated. However, greed, acquisitiveness and piling up stuff are competitive efforts and they don’t really bring people together in the end so you can’t build a very sturdy alliance on that basis.

A more important animating force is probably hatred of the left. There used to be a kind of consensus - at least with the Reform breed - on matters of fundamentalist religion as well but that's largely out the window at least for the moment. Therefore, hatred, in my opinion, is the wellspring behind the emotion that creates the diatribes Allan noted earlier that he finds on this site every single time a certain collection of code words appears in an article.

I think Harper is trying desperately to inject another element into the mix with his support of our ill-advised efforts to intervene on one side in the Afghanistan civil war; he sees an involvement in Bush's phony war on terror as another way to bring cohesion to the right and further, as a result, his other aims. He sees involvement in Bush’s little imperialist adventure as a way to induce another emotion that he hopes will stick his supporters together and attract new acolytes to the cause. That element is fear.

Think back in history to other cases where those elements: greed, hate and fear have come together. The next two years will be very important for the future of this country. I know you’ve been saying that, but I think there are so many different ways to look at the situation. Hope you don’t totally disagree.

Looking over recent times I'm forced to observe that Capitalism has become a religion, a fundamentalist one at that, and religions have become political parties.

For some of them it must have more power than a strong coffee or a hit of Exlax because the stuff just flows onto the screen.

May I urge people like noleftnutter, mabellbc and Working Man do something worthwhile, like go find a job or something - Allan

Interesting comments consdiering the posts that follow.The misinformation, assumptions, irrational logic and the perpsective that somehow anyone who disagress is beholden to dark, mysterious forces beyoond our comprehension is breathtaking. Frankly, Bailey seems have some valid points but his comparison or capitalism to religion is odd, considering the behaviour of the lefty cultists on this site.

Coyote, your rants are boring in thier repetitivness as though somehow, by repeating the same tired comments you can make them more real. There is no boogeyman, conspiracy theories are so 60's and frankly, most British Columbians have never enjoyed such a wealth of prosperity, choices and freedoms. Just becasue you can't share them doesn't mean you should get in a snit about it.

I agree, Bailey, it's all in what you worship.

GW West...good points... I think fear rules much of the world now.... based on a massive pervading feeling of insecurity... because all things have become artificial through man's manipulation and tampering. It is what advertising feeds on...that insecurity.

The only real economy is the natural one as Fiat Lux has taught me. Our wealth is the natural world...we have so tampered with it... out of that greed you allude to that the market no longer represents anything real or substantial... just a delusionary and pretty pathetic mirage at best...

A really good piece, GWest. And entirely accurate, from my perspective.

One doesn't have to hang around here long I think, to be made aware of the intensity of rage emotion and hatred developing here, along the line in the sand between right and left, and the class line between the market forces proposents and working class interests. And I personally do not run from it, but consider it an inevitable development which must occur, in order for their to be an eventual resolution of the times which have been coming on since the late 1970s.

And for which reason, by the by, I favour the rightwingnutters being here and not excluded, so that working class folks as read here, along with progressive-bent others, can see precisely the substance and subtleties of the emerging "clash to come". They need to see how we and they deal with the substantive issues.

And as for Harpos intentions and that of his Neoconazi Legions here, in their US serving role in Afghanistan, I don't think there is any illusions we should have either. It leads in the direction of further uniting the extreme right around US Empire interests and objectives, and the corporatist push to deep integrate the nation into a greater "continental USA". There need be no doubt about that here, I think. It is transparent enough to anyone wanting to really look and see, nondelusionally.

I think it has come too late myself, as the US Empire is already falling into decline and eventual collapse, but he correctly perceives, I think, that the ongoing viability and survivability of the current capitalism is much tied to the US Empire star. If it falls in the Middle East and elsewhere, and we shall have to see, the entire global system of capitalism is likely to be profoundly impacted in the trauma of the aftermath.

Which, I am sure, in the contingency planning that one should rationally presume is going on around the "possibility" of that, the uniting of the right becomes even more important. Hatred and fear such as is evolving here, in what you describe, feed into each other, and can be powerful tools, and is something we need to have in our rear view mirror, and looking ahead of ourselves, all the time, in this evolving affair.

Quite frankly, it is my own view that dangerous times for such as myself and progressives generally, as well as for the entire organized and unorganized working class is what is emerging out of the mists here. These folks are bent on a course they will not soon be persuaded from, cannot be at this late date. (And as BC Mary and I have been separately discussing, around this Virk and Basi issue, there are emerging more than small indications that serious criminal and anti-nation elements ensconced in the University of Calgary, and through this latter, the Conservative Party, are deeply integrated into current ruling "establishment" politicss.)

I would say, I agree entirely with your assessment that, "The next two years will be very important for the future of this country." It is all sliding south, just that fast.

(I wish I felt more confident about the trade union and progressive movements generally, and the degree of organization and level of understanding of the broader working class, but alas I am not. Which does not auger well I think, as presently viewed. Which suggests to me that one should be doing their own contingency planning. :-)

A good day, folks. I will be busy the rest of the day.

G West:

How about total agreement.

SIDEBAR on the Bush stuff: Bloomberg.com, today notes, " ``We face no greater challenge from a single country than from Iran,'' a 49-page foreign policy doctrine released today says. ``We will continue to take all necessary measures to protect our national and economic security against the adverse consequences of their bad conduct.''"

`The doctrine of pre-emption remains sound,'' White House National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley said in an address in Washington to present the updated strategy. ``We do not rule out the use of force before an attack occurs.''

We all need a good laugh before we cry.... try this

http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=1562

grubby writes: 'Bottom-line, the bulk of BC's teachers have very little to lose by a prolonged strike (make it a year if you have to).'
grubby's garbage might be the biggest crock of shite yet this year. teachers are the cheapest people in the world grubby-boy. in fact i think they may have invented copper wire by trying to stretch pennies. you're dreaming pal, as is that bob the cat moron whose wife is on the social justice committee. what the hell is that? maybe teachers should try to actually teach something for a change, and if they want to play politics or the social engineering game they can do so from within an organized political party instead of screwing up the education system.

Hate to interrupt to comment on the original story, but I couldn't help but note a number of factual errors.

First, the BCTF isn't voting to join the BC FED, "and by extension, the Canadian Labour Congress". It is voting to affiliate to the Canadian Labour Congress, which then entitles it to become a regular affiliate of the Federation and local Labour Councils.

Second, Sinclair didn't "call off" the Friday strikes - CUPE and the BCTF decided to go it alone knowing that other unions had never agreed to go out on Friday.

Third, the BCTF hasn't and won't pay $600,000 a year to the BCFED. More like $290,000 - a sum that the Fed survived without for about 50 years prior.

Fourth, the majority of unions in BC are not affiliated to the NDP. And the "block" of delegates sent by the BC Federation of Labour to Convention = 2 people.

Finally, why does the author say "The decision... will have a lasting impact on public education in B.C." He doesn't seem to be aware that the BCTF and the Fed have worked together closely for the past 25 years. IMHO, it is more likely to have an impact on unionism, rather than education.

Altogther, pretty sloppy work, and with a distinctly anti-Fed bias. I thought the Tyee was supposed to be an alternative to Conrad Black reporting, but since Rex is a newby, I'll give him a chance to achieve a more "professional" standard of "accountability".

Elliot - great post!

Humour and relevancy all wrapped into a couple of paragraphs!!

Elliot:

On my teacher friends being cheap: there I agree ...

But, you'll just have to wait and see if you don't trust me on this. A pi$$ed-off 58-year old, mortgage-paid-off, teacher who's been jerked around for about 15 years, is not likely to give a damn about losing a few months' pay. Call it early retirement or practising for retirement. Buddy, walking the line for a few months will be a lark to them.

Elliot:

What do you care what the Social Justice C'ttee is; clearly it's internal to the BCTF. Are you a member?

What are you talking about in terms of social engineering? Are you just making that up, or do you have specifics you'd like to bitch about?

Further, in what way are teachers screwing up the education system. As you well know, the Liberal gov't has pretty-much seen to it that teacher influence is nonexistent. So, if you have complaints about the education system being screwed up, you'd better take that up with Gordon Campbell and his education minister.

mabellbc on Elliot:

Humour and relevancy all wrapped into a couple of paragraphs!

And the relevancy was.... where? C'mon, let's have it mabellbc, what was relevant?

At least they shut the door behind them!

Thank you, Organiser, for clearing up problems with this article.

Like you, I was a bit taken aback by the slant of the story, but I wouldn't have been as clear as you were in recognising and correcting errors. In regards to the Social Justice Committee, I could not agree more. In a free society are not people allowed to have free association with others - especially when they are advocating for common good and decency? Are not teachers allowed to advocate for the common good? If not teachers, then who: drug dealers, murderers, multi-millionaires?

"most British Columbians have never enjoyed such a wealth of prosperity, choices and freedoms. Just becasue you can't share them doesn't mean you should get in a snit about it"

The dude is retired, gets to ride his bike, rile up capitalist boot-licks on the 'Net, and hang out all day on land I'm guessing he owns outright. I'd say is got his share of the prosperity! Further, I don't hear him complaining about his situation at all. You're wrong... again.

I hope my retirement years are as fun! Poking fun at you money-worshippers Noleftnutter is fun, even if it's a little too easy to point out where y'all get off track. Hint: the answer is in your heart, not your head.

Then why is he in such a cranky mood all of the time? As for you Stump, I don't recall you pointing out anything about anyone being legitimately off track in the time I've been here. Except for you in your last post. Hint - the answer's in your brain if you're willing to use it.

8-D lol. Hint: the answer is in your heart, not your head.

"I don't recall you pointing out anything about anyone being legitimately off track in the time I've been here."

Well then, you'll know to just skip past my posts then woncha?

I dunno where to post this. It's not really appropriate here since we're not directly dealing with government financing and revenues except in the sense that teachers are public servants. On the other hand, Andre Picard's story in today's Globe and Mail is too important to ignore - especially given the kind of claptrap most supporters of gambling as a legitimate 'creator' of government revenue is concerned. So, with Stump's forebearance (and even without it) I will stick in some lines from the above named source here:

Casinos, of course, are only the tip of the iceberg. Many provinces allow video lottery terminals -- aptly described as the crack cocaine of gambling -- and lottery tickets are so pervasive that we don't even think of that as
gambling any more.

Many politicians and policy-makers are uncomfortable with the pervasiveness of gambling. Their reticence is understandable.

But it is not enough: They should be ashamed. If the state wants to embrace gambling and create a dependency on its revenues, the least it can do is do so openly. Right now, elected officials are simply turning a blind eye to the growing problem.

Public-health officials are increasingly speaking out on the issue, but not nearly forcefully enough. Members of the general public, for their part, act like gambling is somebody else's problem. And the media largely ignore the issue except for the occasional passing interest when -- shock, horror! --
it is suggested that Wayne Gretzky's wife gambles.

There seems to be quiet resignation to the notion that gambling is going to exist, so the profits might as well go into state coffers.

Having the state deliver "services" such as blackjack, slot machines and scratch-and-lose tickets, the argument goes, prevents organized crime from doing so.

It's a dubious justification for extracting $12-billion in disguised taxes from Canadians' pockets.

By this logic, the government should be building brothels and putting crack dealers on the public payroll so that bikers and the Mafia don't profit from prostitution and drug smuggling.

Governments' embrace of gambling, coupled with politicians' reluctance to speak publicly about the issue, is rank hypocrisy.

It was a toss up whether I'd post this here or down page at Rafe's mental health story. Hope no one's upset.

Hope you are all paying attention to what is going on in France with students right now. :-)
Pay attention, rightwingnutters. You're looking at the future, you keep pushing things the way you are.

Bring it on, says I.

we shall see grub, but with all due respect i think you're wrong on this one. the teachers would be wise to take their 14% and their signing bonus and move on. they've got a pretty good gig and the working stiff in this province knows it. cheers.

Bring it on, says I. - Coyote

For centuries apocolyptic prophicies hvae been the pervue of religious fanatics.

NoLeftNutter
I thought you left here a few days ago to do some research on health care. If you've finished that, perhaps a little time brushing up on your spelling wouldn't be misplaced.
Cheers.

You speak of Buchanan, Pat Robinson, Tammy Faye and some of the other Christalmightyfascists in your beloved US Empire homeland, I presume.

Your point being?

Christian fanatics in the US rivalling about any of the most looney toons in the world. (Indeed, if the US was to fight a "war on terrorism" most seriously, we could all breathe easy, for they would be to busy warring amongst themselves and with their own Terrorist State.

At least I assume that is the direction in which you are leading this conversation.

Cheers.

G West - as much a typing problem as a spelling one, but thanks for the heads up.

Coyote - the religious references started a few posts up apparently that's a trait of us folks with right of centre views. Seems odd though that you would be the one doing the soapbox preaching on most of these threads. Are you a closet right winger????

NoLeftNutter asks Coyote Are you a closet right winger????

Answer

No,but he sure is one hell of closet drinker.

Nah. I just do it right out in the open like a man, when I feel like it. :-) A shot or two a day is better than Viagra. One say around 1600 hours, just before supper, and another maybe later in the evening, listening to say a good Russian Choir, a little Bach, or perhaps The Parley of Instruments doing some classical English violin concertos.

A man of otherwise "usually" temperate habits and a modicum of self-discipline doesn't need to hide his liking of a drink-, only boys and self-righteous twits who can't handle their own booze, and hence think everyone who drinks is a closet alcoholic. :-)

Cheers.

I've even been known to have a little fondness for a little "herb".

What's to hide? :-)

OK, so why has the subject of the HEU agreement not been linked to the ongoing bitching by our vocational educators? If any group had the right to be angry and resentful at the government, it was this union. Even I have to agree that the Liberals were wrong for taking back 15% from them (I can understand why they did it, but I do not agree with it). Having listened to Judy Darcy tonight on NW describing how the agreement was reached, I had to ponder the lack of parallels with the school-marms. Seven weeks of marathon bargaining, lots of give and take by both sides, kept the negotiations out of the media, no strike vote taken, and voila, a settlement a couple of weeks before the current agreement expires. And their members at least get to share in the signing bonuses.

And do not be surprised if the BCGEU settles before the end of the month. Haven't heard much from Deb McPherson and the nurses, but in that case, silence is likely a sign of good things.

Over to the BCTF. In the last seven weeks, the only marathon has been how many cheeseburgers Jinny can stuff down her gullet. During that time, she was saddened to hear that Rosa Parks passed away. And quite surprised to hear that that was actually her name. A strike vote has been announced for the end of June, again well before any significant negotiating has occured. And on and on and on.

I do not think this thread should be about whether the BCTF wants out of the Fed. It rightly should be about why on earth the Fed wants anything to do with the BCTF.

Sorry to be off topic:

I find it really interesting that there are so many (experts) on public education who do not work within the system, and they seldom do more than visit a single school on occassion. I would never presume to tell a logger how to do his job, or a fisherman, or even a salesman. Why is it, then, that when teachers are trying to critique the system that they have professionally educated themselves to work within and improve (in their 5-8 years of post-secondary education plus countless workshops at personal expense), some members of the public get into a real snit?

It is a rare thing when you can get 90% of any large group of people to agree on anything. When 90% of 40,000 teachers are all saying the same thing: "The system is gettin' busted," and that they can't possibly do the jobs required of them, the public had better listen. The teachers I know are pretty middle of the road, with a few at both extremes.

Most of the teachers I know voted Liberal - the first time. It didn't take teachers long to see that this government did not have the best interest of all learners in their minds or in their hearts. Wages are definitely a good part of teachers' issues with this government, but the learning conditions of their students is the what grinds them.

From what I have heard, those private schools in West Van (that are so highly touted by the Frasier Institute), spend more per capita on plant and equipment and they have smaller class sizes. Their client group is generally affluent or highly motivated to become so. If you want student performance to improve, the best thing you can do is increase the number of professionals providing instruction. Teachers are not lazy people, they are highly motivated like the vast majority of university graduates. The slovenly and inept are usually weeded out during their practica. A failing performance during their practica means they do not become certified. The bar is generally set pretty high for a practicum student. I have seen many fail this test after 4, 5 or 6 years of university.

juskatladude; you're absolutely right. ultimately it's bloody obvious that jinny and the gang WANT ANOTHER ILLEGAL JOB ACTION!!!
the teachers will be hanging out there all by themselves this time with all the other groups locked up for four years. will this matter to jinny? not a chance. she wants to go to jail and do her best rosa parkes imitation b/c teachers are having their human rights stripped away by these capitalist pig liberals. what a bunch of bloody morons.

Elliot, you're such an idiot... But you do make me laugh... Jinny isn't going to jail over this -ever. While you might be too out of touch to realize this and why, I don't think the Libs are or the Judges. Sleep well.

....By "this" I mean a strike....

J'dude you say you understand why the Liberals took back 15% from the HEU....would you please explain it to me?

me an idiot? nah, don't think so blonde. but i do like to mess with whacked-out lefties like grubby and bob the kitty. once you cut through all the rhetoric you may realize that my posts aren't as far off as you may think. i've been following b.c. politics closely for a very long time indeed. might even throw my hat in the ring sometime. can i count on your vote?

Vote for you? Hmmm...sure when you move into my neighbourhood....Let me tell you something, be careful when you play with kitties they have teeth and claws and they will get you.

SharingIsGood asks;

I don't think this question is off topic at all. I think it's right at the heart of some of the attitudes and arguments we're seeing here.

All of us, each and every human being walking the Earth is a kind of agent of the future. We have a built in responsibility for everything we do.

We pursue knowledge, build an understanding of the nature of things. Then we take a job and turn our hands to reshaping the world. We don't all agree as to the details or all work to accomplish the same ends, but that's OK. The world is a complicated place and the averaging effect is powerful. Our fellow humans reap the benefits, whatever they are of the work of all of us.

Some of us get very convinced of the wrongness of those who dare to disagree with them. There's a kind of madness to it, this believing that one knows. Absolutely knows. Anything. Not only in their own areas of study and endevor, but everybody else's as well.

There are Christian groups right now trying to force teachers to deny whole fields of study and teach unverifiable mythology in its place.

With some success, since one of the worst of these groups is government. In theory, the whole purpose of government in a democracy is to pay. They hire teachers or inspectors or health care workers or whatever, and pay them out of taxes. They also regulate, but only in respect of professional standards set by each group itself.

Government has no expertise in any field. For them to say inspectors will not inspect THIS or THAT is a corrupt practice and a conflict. Or to say teachers should teach this way or that is a ridiculous affectation. How would they know? They're in no position to know what's the best practice in anything except by being told by those who do know.

A government who does anything but try their best to fund teachers to do what teachers themselves say must be funded or to fund healthcare as their own studies say it has to be organised is a failure. The only reason I can think of for them to do such an incompetent thing is that they think they know.

Ideology as faith. They know because they know. The word has been handed down to them from on high. How dare teachers disagree with party dogma? Or anybody.

Elliot:

...that and a few concessions on working conditions, and you and I would have inked that deal...

Elliot:

Elliot, a step in the right direction for you: admission that your posts are mainly rhetoric. We've always known it, but it was nice of you to own up to it.

Elliot:

So, what in your mind defines "whacked-out"? Given you've singled bob the cat and me out for your special attention, I'm guessing "whacked-out", by your definition, means someone who supports the rights of working people to associate freely and to bargain collectively. If that's whacked-out, I plead guilty on all counts.

But tell us, Elliot, who I thus presume is not "whacked-out", would you prefer a society in which freedom of association is illegal and in which collective bargaining were outlawed?

Careful how you answer now; that was a leading question.

"the whole purpose of government in a democracy is to pay."

"A government who does anything but try their best to fund teachers to do what teachers themselves say must be funded"

And there you have the entire socialist doctrine summed up in two lines.

Where to begin. No, the whole purpose of government is not to simply cut blank cheques (although this has been tried by such luminaries as Clark and Barrett and to a lesser degree Harcourt). And the reason for this is the citizens of the province are the ones who must provide the cash to support those cheques. An equal role of government is to balance the needs of its employees such as teachers with the ability to fund those cheques from the public purse.

As for the teachers being granted divine rights to determine what is best for themselves, I find it difficult to even find the lowest common denominator to begin to comment on this concept. If I have you correctly, in Bailey-world, there would be no school principles, no school boards, no school districts, no Ministry of Education. The teachers would make all decisions and the government would simply cut cheques.

To be brutally honest, my experience with teachers in general, from my university days (hey, if you flunk out of Applied Sciences, you can still pass Education) and from dealing with them at my kids school as well as dealing with them at our business is that they are nice people who have average intelligence but who have an extreme case of entitlement which exceeds their role in society. They are certainly not the right people to be given the keys to the kingdom.

I find it very telling that none of you lefties are responding to my post from last night regarding why Judy Darcy and the HEU can play ball with the government while Jinny and the school-marms can't.

"J'dude you say you understand why the Liberals took back 15% from the HEU....would you please explain it to me?"

Knowing that both he and his party were doomed to be wiped out in May of 2001, your icon Glen Clark served up his union buddies some whacko collective agreements. Picture the Republican Guard torching oil wells and you have the general idea (OK, that was an exaggeration). The Liberals took a look at these agreements and, much like Clark knew they would, tore some of them up. The HEU, in my opinion took more of a hit than was deserving. And for that reason, I applaud this union for getting the best for its members in this round of negotiations rather than acting like a spoiled brat.

relax grub, you and i can surely get along. who said anything about outlawing collective bargaining? i'm not opposed to unions. they are very useful in providing safe working conditions and deserved benefits for their members. i AM opposed to organizations like the bctf whose main interest is to use their members and the students in the classrooms to fight their silly political battles, and that's what's been happening here, especially since chudnovsky ousted kit krieger in 99(?).
yes, you and i would have inked that deal, but i doubt if jinny and the gang would. they especially don't want to ink a four year deal, as all the other unions are doing, b/c it would be harder to be in the spotlight if that were achieved.

whacked-out lefty = bailey.
wow, what a post!

'Knowing that both he and his party were doomed to be wiped out in May of 2001, your icon Glen Clark served up his union buddies some whacko collective agreements.'
in fact paul ramsey, the finance minister of the time, publicly stated that the next gov't would have a very difficult time honouring the contracts that the ndp cut with the unions. it was sabotage, pure and simple, and everyone knew it. the good news is that it didn't work, and the libs were re-elected with a good majority. now the pain is over, the unions are cutting nice deals, and they don't expire until after the next election. good luck ndp. hope you enjoy your very long stay in opposition.

I didn't mean to imply such a narrow use of the term "teachers". Perhaps I should have said "educators".

Of course principals, school boards and so forth would qualify as professional educators, provided they aren't pre-empted by special interests other than purely educational ones.

The ministry of education must act for the good of society, since it's society's money they spend.

The question you have to ask yourself is whether society is served by having educated people in the future? They might disagree with you ideologues, mightn't they?

Maybe it would be better to gut education, proscribe critical thinking and reduce all but the affluent to mere childish name callers.

Ya think?

Dear Elliot; let me add my voice to grub's

I've noticed that when you're thinking, you seem to think whole thoughts. You make points and defend them and in general are a pleasure to read.

Whenever you descend to name calling the quality of your arguments seems to slip dramatically.

I suggest that one doesn't have to be "whacked" to disagree with you. That you think so seems to indicate that you have no tolerance for disagreement. The mark of the faithful is that they can't tolerate other views than the revealed truth they themselves spout. Infidels, you know?

Is there maybe an element of faith in your political beliefs?

So, Elliot, that's what this whole thing's all been about?

Why didn't you just say you were pissed about the Supreme Court decision that dismissed the BC Public School Employers' Association request to appeal the B.C. Court of Appeal decision that upheld the 'right' of classroom teachers to inform parents about the impact of class size and composition as well as the effects of funding cuts in general?

Why didn't you just say at the outset that you're no fan of free speech and leave it at that? We probably wouldn't have thought any less of you. Or do you not agree with the rule of law either?

Thanks for your insight, Bailey.

It hadn't dawned on me that we had a sort of religious fanaticism at work. I think that TV may have sped the process of the evolution of objectivism.

1. Many gods and spirits of all descriptions;
2. Human like gods;
3. One God;
4. I am God, no God, or we are all Gods.

Yes, capitalism/objectivism has become a religion unto which many of those who believe, believe so faithfully. Many people, like George Bush, have even been able to sell the notion that they do what they do for the sake of God. God Bless America, and all of its colonies, like BC.

Elliot:

Look, there is some merit to what you say -- some. I too feel that the BCTF is at times overly-politicized. But let's be clear, that's the executive at HQ and the odd local executives. I think it wrong to characterize the membership as politicized and I think to suggest that students in classrooms are used to further political aims is hyperbole.

That the odd teacher, out of how many thousands, may step over the line; hey, who's surprised? But to suggest that this is general practice is, as I said, pure hyperbole.

I, too, was a fan of Kit Krieger, and think the teachers of this province would be better served by executives like him, as opposed to Chudnovsky and Sims. But as I've mentioned on this thread, and elsewhere, I really don't think this cohort of teachers are about to follow any president's lead.

The population of teachers in BC are too experienced to follow leaders (and Sims would do well to remember that, lest she embarass herself by writing cheques her membership won't cash).

Having said that, I do think that, within most schools, there are informal leaders who really call the tune. These informal leaders are the metaphorical grey beards; reasonable people who will accept reasonable offers, but who will just as likely walk the picket line for montrhs if they're insulted and/or taken for granted.

The BC gov't would do well to put a finger to the pulses of the staffrooms of this province and to seek out the grey beards for insight. The gov't would, however, be well-advised not to dig in it's heels in a reaction to Sims' rhetoric and in so doing insult the average teacher. Play to the grey beards, not Jinny!

SharingIsGood; that's a very interesting connection.

I agree that the transformation of Capitalism from it's Henry Fordian iteration, which created the production based prosperity of the 20th century West, to it's current essentially 19th century ownership based format follows closely the spread of Objectivist thought.

If you consider Soviet Communism as a religion, a point of view supported by it's dogmatic heirarchical structure and it's obsessive dislike of other religions, then Ayn Rand's deeply emotional reaction to it in the thirties could be seen as a schism.

Rand was a Soviet who escaped to the Capitalist American realm where Ford was busy creating a competing worker's paradise by the controversial method of paying his workers really really well for the efficiencies created by his revolutionary mass production methods, and absorbing those wage costs in the increased sales to his own newly prosperous workers. Then to their newly prosperous communities, and so on, and on.

Like many religious converts, she became more vehement than those who were born to the faith, and her Objectivism was so bizarrely extreme that Ford's successful version of Capitalism must have seemed almost sinful to her. In my reading Rand's Objectivism seems so intensely materialistic that no Communistic atheism could be more so.

Add to that materialism her romantic vision of the heroic Uber-mensch style of hyper competent, gold loving, elitist who spurns the poor as angels spurn the sinful, and you get a very good approximation of the current corporate neo-conservative world view.

J'dude that last contract that the NDP signed HEU to was for $60.00 p/month for the first year, 2% for the second and cost of living(minimum 1.5%) for the third. Like nursing and HSA HEU had two full contracts of 0-0-0 . We did however win a twenty something year wage equality . The NDP was going to continue the battle but submitted to public outcry and just paid up. As I recall GC and pals were right in there (out crying) like a dirty shirt. How do you get 15% out of that ?

Bailey
Not surprisingly led for the past 20 years - during which neoconservative fiscal and economic policy has had its biggest successes - by Allan Greenspan who was a follower of Rand and her cadre and someone who has never denyed the influence of objectivism on his thought.

Ayn Rand and her group had some pretty kinky ideas about free love as I recall - special rules (or no rules maybe) for super people I suppose.

RE: Greenspan and objectivism

The major flaw of objectivism is that it is based in a notion that greed for material wealth is sustainable and good. With a planet that is running lean on resources, it takes more and more energy to mine those resources that are increasingly more troublesome to uncover. The planet Earth is finite. We have now reached the point where half of the planet's oil has already been consumed. It is not the fault of a poor person born into poverty in the Sudan for being born. For people who believe in living within nature rather than shaping/destroying it to satisfy material lusts, it is not stupidity that stare at objectivists with their jaws agape. Objectivism works for short term goals, but what about longer: 50, 100, and 200 year plans. What about planning for those who currently have nothing but poverty and disease.

Greenspan was in power when Western objectivism out-lasted the Soviet Union. The US economy was able to swoop in and take advntage of a playing field with no true opponents. Rather than seize the opportunity to show the world the fruits of the capitalist engine (by defeating poverty and disease in Africa and South Asia) the conservative governments of North America and Europe chose to milk the planet even further. 1/10th of the annual US arm's budget applied for 10 years toward the elimination of hunger, and the world would be fed. Further, Greenspan's economics did nothing for average working people and the poor in his own country. The median (and below) income has dropped while the very richest have gotten disgustingly rich. At present, the only one of the Greenspan billionaires that I have any admiration for at all is Bill Gates - even though he uses harsh business practices to destroy his competition, he does have a strong phillantrophic side to him. He's a bit like Henry Ford in the sense that he creates plants in the communities he hopes to have purchase his products with the wages they earn while working in his shops. Too bad computers are so polluting - with their 3 to 5 year replacement cycles. Still, we need many people using computers if we wish to have reasonable hopes of solving some of the huge problems the planet is going to face during the next couple of generations.

SharingIsGood

Interesting observations. Gates, unlike Ford, isn't a proponent of the reflexive anti-Semitism and Darwinian thinking (stuff like eugenics) and fascism that made everything Ford said he believed in a dangerous joke. I'm not sure that his nascent commitment to philanthropy will balance, in the end, the negative effects that go along with Microsoft's domination of the sector.
Perhaps some real monopoly splitting might have been a better course for the overall well-being of the world economy. There's no doubt that tools (like computers) are important elements in ‘possible’ solutions of the planet's problems. In the end though, monopolistic behavior and objectivist (or Darwinian) justifications for it need to be confronted by a wider range of critics with a more popular audience. Change is unlikely if one expects it to come from the top. For the moment, political power still buys into the system far more than it analyzes and tries to change it. Bernanke, not sharing the same roots as Greenspan - and coming from a different generation of course, might - under a different administration - be more of a force for progress. We'll see.
Cheers.

Rand's sexual practices were pretty much ordinary Soviet thinking. Throw off the yoke of decadent blah blah blah and all that. All the rage in the twenties.

You know the more I think about this idea of Objectivism as a schism within the Soviet system, the more I like it.

Just look at the parallels in structure and outlook with the current neocon model of Capitalism.

In the Soviet system, commisars rose to power through vicious ruthlessness and criminal conspiricies. They then enriched themselves and their allies while robbing the areas they were nominally supposed to be running. Education, industries, health, fishing, agriculture, etc. In all these a pattern of failures grew, except among the small elite groups themselves, leading to failure of the entire society and large numbered bank accounts in Switzerland.

I mention:
Enron.
Fish stocks destroyed by the Department of Fisheries,
Forests exported for short term profit by the Ministry of Forests,
Hospitals handed to contributors by the Minister of Health while patients die from neglect.
This very thread- Education gutted except for the children of the elite by the minister in charge. Teachers subugated the whims of politicians who know nothing about it.

If this is valid, we are not a Capitalist society, we are a branch of the Soviet system. Ruled by ruthless corporissars and being ruined by them.

Capitalism will have been defeated. It's
successful production based prosperity slyly replaced by Soviet style elitist corruption.

Whew! Anybody see anything wrong with this? The comparisons seem complete to me.

g west; i respect the rule of law, which says that no one is above the law. that is more than i can say for teachers, who defied an order from the supreme court of b.c. to continue their ILLEGAL JOB ACTION last fall. but hey, what the hell, it was only the supreme court of b.c.. who are they anyway? jinny's more important than them. i mean, after all, she's a teacher with a degree in education, and she has links to rosa parkes and nelson mandela.

bailey; fire up another fatty.

Oh, Elliot, try to get a grip, will you?

The teacher's strike you're so het up about was perfectly legal when it took place. You get that? NOT illegal.

The current government tried to make it illegal after the fact, ignoring the principle of not making reciprocal laws for the purpose of attacking your enemies.

The supreme court did in fact rule that the law was a law, and didn't overturn it, but when the Solicitor General tried to enforce it the Crown flat out refused. They did so on two grounds:

1. The teachers had a strong defense under the charter. There was no reasonable expectation of conviction.

2. The Crown Counsels were in court fighting the same government for doing the same dirty trick to them. It would have been a conflict of interest. They won that action, by the way.

There's a lot of people who believe that the only reason the Libs are willing to settle now is because they lost that action and so had no chance of hiding behind that kind of reciprocal legislation again, and they had no other tool except good faith bargaining.

So please stop implying that the honourable people who teach our children are some kind of criminals. It's just plain wrong.

I've been taking a watching brief on you Elliot. Your main objection, not that I'm surprised you wouldn't own up to it, is the fact that you think the teachers are misusing their position with students and parents to promote what you see as inimical to your own personal agenda. The Supreme Court found there was nothing wrong with what they were doing and you're frustrated and annoyed about that. End of story.
Why don't you send your kids to private school where they can be better indoctrinated into right-wing thinking? As a matter of fact, the recent Budget should encourage you in that direction since it included a bigger increase in the growth of funding for private schools than it did for public education.
Give it up! You lost that round.

Alcibiades wrote,

Interesting thought. A completely private system sure would make some teachers rich. The problem is, that the government still wants to control a standard curriculum. The best and most creative teachers would surely rise to the top in a completely private, deregulated system. The most unique teachers would band together and open "practices". And would they charge for this? You bet! But you sure would have some innovative mini-schools.

The average teachers would simply go work at the private "chain" school that exist on a P3 model. Hey, maybe Wal-Mart could start an educational division, complete with a summer work experience program. Standardized testing would be the norm so that numbers can be used to justify the means.

And a few of course, a few teachers would work with the disadvantaged sectors, and they would come from all areas, with all types of motivations.

So, imagine a private system with no unions, but no government control over the curriculum. Exciting? Scary? You bet. But then then true cost of a good education would become visible.

Yes Moat, the upfront cost of a good education would become more visible; but, the true cost, the cost of engendering even a wider disparity between haves and have nots, would lead to even further strife and violence - one of the legacies we have courtesy of our Liberal government. Personally, I don't want to be known as the generation of people in BC who created a society with more poverty and more violence than in generations past. From disparity comes violence.

Moat and sharing
My affection for the public system should have been self-evident. The above message was, and is, exclusively for little Elliot.

Any satirical connection was merely to point out the apparent dichotomy between what the current 'administration' in Victoria says and what it actually does. One ought to keep a watching brief, not just on Elliot, but on the incipient tendencies toward market solutions in the ministry as evidenced by the apparent willingness to begin some sort of experiment with so-called charter schools.

The price for freedom is vigilance. The importance of a good education can't be overstated.

nice bit of revisionist history by bailey. you lefties are very good at that. alcibiades comments don't even merit a response. i guess ignorance is bliss to some. the supreme court ordered the teachers back to work and fined them $500,000. 'the teachers had a strong defense under the charter'?????
what the hell are you talking about? wondering if teachers tell their students this shite now? nice system.

"I, too, was a fan of Kit Krieger, and think the teachers of this province would be better served by executives like him, as opposed to Chudnovsky and Sims."

Why? Because Krieger signed a deal without consulting the membership? Krieger agreed to a deal of 0-0-2 and everything he gained has now been ripped up by Campbell. Teachers were angry with him. He's also the president of a local where they have one of the worst collective agreements in BC. I'll go with Chudnovsky and Sims. They atleast listen to the membership. We tell Jinny what to do, not the other way around.

Dear Elliot; The teachers were ordered back by the BC Supreme Court. The Supreme Court of Canada is the one that deals with charter violations.

The teachers had a strong charter defense. It's doubtful even a Liberal influenced Court would have found that the BC Liberal government had the right to permanently remove the right to free collective bargaining from anybody.

The BC Liberal government had imposed the same contract repeatedly, and showed no sign of thinking there was anything stopping them from doing that forever, which would have amounted to exactly that. A complete end run around the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

What makes you think that's not a strong defence under the charter? What makes you think any Federal Supreme Court would pass on that?

What did I revise, exactly?

Elliot
You are so ignorant you can't even remember what you've actually written about this subject. As some one put it up above, send your kids to private school, they'll learn the phony upper-class spin there and you'll be soooo much happier yourself.

I think it's time for you to take a break my lad, too much contemplation is hard on that brain cell. You'll find, as you grow up, that bitterness will only carry you so far. No one's ever questioned the points you just made - they have disagreed about the cause and why the BCTF's actions were necessary. If you really gave more than a tinker's damn for the actual state of education in this province, you might be able to comprehend that. Instead, you hang around here fulminating like a shaken soda. The only conclusion one can take from your posts is that, if you're a product of the education system in this province, it clearly had one significant failure.

the revision is simple. you claimed that the strike was not illegal until after the fact, but it was ruled illegal by the labour relations board before it happened. even the bctf didn't dispute that it was illegal from the outset. that's why they spewed so self-righteously about civil disobedience and rosa parkes and nelson mandela. what a crock of shite. they'll try it again this time but it won't work. only bona-fide lefty freaks like you and g west will believe any of it. they're playing with fire and they're going to get burned, b/c after the next one, when it's apparent that they've lost public support, the gov't will give teachers a chance to opt out of this political organization. at that point you'll see how many teachers really want to belong to an extreme left-wing political organization that uses them and the students as pawns in their silly games.

Hi Bailey, I really appreciate your thoughtful posts/replies. I think that I have come to the conclusion that we are experiencing a Brave New "1984" World sort of life. It doesn't matter that it is the Soviet variety or the Objectivist: for the worker, the world becomes more grey, more controlled by a fewer number of people. We are all in service to a WallMartian (rather than Orwellian). Did you know that WallMart is now responsible for 9% of the US GDP? And isn't it great that they put McDonald's right in the Wallmart stores? Objectivism being touted daily in the press and on the TV has brought us self-centered sheep who have traded off reading, thinking and discourse for a better TV (or video game) to show more pictures of violence - in our own streets as well as more war and rumours of war. Now, in Canada, we have working people fearing to venture out into the streets alone because of the disenfranchised. The disenfranchised fear the police. Lots of fear about. Ceasar was right, "Give them circus" [and they will not complain].

Three cheers to the teachers for standing up to the biggest bunch of bullies I have ever seen in this beautiful country, Canada. Though I fear that Stephen Harper's crew may be worse, yet. Stockwell Day is the Minister in charge of Internal Security - the RCMP! I don't feel safe with Stock at that helm. The unethical Emmerson has the business/trade component in tow. And, we have Harper making patriotic noises that sound far too much like they have come from the mouth of a Republican American president for my liking. Now the Conservatives have closed ranks, they keep their mouth's shut. Everything is run through the party's central propaganda machine before it goes out. Come to think of it, Bailey, the BC Liberals and the Federal Conservatives do remind me of the old Soviet Union.

Sadly, the money tree will eventually dry up when there is nowhere else that the current objectivist empire can expand. Canada is just a US colony after all. Workers will be squeezed for more and more until they eventually rise up, for then, they will have nothing to lose - no health care, no education, no environment, no social insurance, and no Old Age Pension. We will, of course have laws, laws written to protect people with money. Those laws will be enforced by Stockwell Day's police force.

wow! that's quite a soliluquuy socialismisgood. do you think anyone besides diehard tyee lefties will believe any of that shite?

Little elliot:

There's no doubt I don’t believe anything you have to say. Particularly when you can't seem to get your stuck needle off nelson mandela and rosa parkes.

Nevertheless, like I said, fulminate away. You're the one who needs an education. You obviously haven't enough mental equipment to keep more than a simple concept in your head at a time I guess.
So, for the last time:
The point is, the Supreme Court of Canada (that's the big one, the last resort) confirmed that teachers have a Charter Right to bring important issues such as financing and class size to the attention of the parents of the children they teach. Your friends in Victoria tried to deny them that fundamental right and it rots your socks that they didn't prevail. Well, get over it, it'll raise your blood pressure - you are so off base that you're not even in the game anymore.

Where were you educated by the way? Perhaps what I should ask is where was it that your education failed to take.

who cares about teachers talking to parents about those issues? i've never even mentioned it on this site and really couldn't give a rat's ass. most parents would tell them to stick to business anyway. it's a non-issue. it means nothing.

I believe it is the teachers' business to talk to parents about issues that effect their childrens' education. I believe many of them try to do some of that, right here.

little Elliot
You wish it didn’t matter, Elliot. They talk to the parents through their kids and that's what's important. And despite all other claims to the contrary you know that's important and that's what people like you are afraid of. That suddenly folks and their children might start thinking for themselves and stop listening to idiots like you.

It means, in fact, everything. That's what free speech is all about.

It's a right you exercise on this site every time you sign on and spew your venom. Just once, you ought to try the same sort of nonsense on a right wing site and see where it would get you.
Having you come on board provides a ‘useful idiot’ figure to ridicule and illustrate certain fundamental points. Your forbearance and animated cooperation is much appreciated. I'd be happier if I felt you were actually learning something but I guess that's too much to expect. You should be very glad that teachers in this province are consummate professionals who don’t hold parents’ ignorance against those parents’ children.
It's been fun.
Cheers

sounds to me like the teachers should start thinking for themselves.
sounds to me like the teachers should let the students think for themselves.
sounds to me like you need to practice what you preach.
sounds to me like you should take a pill and chill out.

Alcibiades and SharingIsGood,

No, I do understand your affection for the public system. I understand your comments were aimed at Elliot, though I would not waste my time with him. He will put his child in the cheapest possible system where he thinks his voice is heard the loudest.

The private schools that we have right now are not really private schools. They still keep teachers teaching to a set curriculum. The creativity of the teachers is limited by the mandate of the school.

What I am suggesting, is that it would be nice if truly "professional" teachers could set up their own school (maybe a high school) and change the curriculum to what they see fits the goals that the teachers and parents collaberatively set. Math lessons could look at compound interest in further detail, Social Studies could cover economic cycles in depth, Biology classes could spend a significant amount of time exploring BCs Biotech industry, and PE class could have a strong outdoor/environmental education focus all the while making use of the outdoors that we are surrounded with. Professionals from industry can "trade" jobs with teachers so that the teachers are exposed to the modern economy, and that professionals are given a chance to give back to the community and "recharge".

Radical idea? Full of pitfalls? Maybe.... but it would be nice to attempt something new. Or else the BC Liberals are going to attempt something "new" and "accountable" for us. And we all know the direction they are hearding....

It seems that even those who disagree with what teachers have to say, here, must like "hearing" those teachers. Otherwise, why would they continually return to play devil's advocate?

Elliot:

Thus, I presume, you have no respect for a government that would tear up contracts freely agreed to between two parties.

Moat:

Or maybe not. I fear "unique" teachers, dedicated to "innovation" would be lost to education. Look around you at what consumers want: Velveeta "cheese" and "reality" TV. Hardly innovative or unique.

I suspect the right-wingers will disagree, but if I want unique and innovative radio I turn to CBC Radio, not CKNW or TEAM1040. The private sector would never air unique programs like "Ideas" or "Dispatches".

So, I fear, it would also be in a totally privatized educational system; teachers would, essentially, teach to the lowest common denominator in terms of content. Innovation and uniques ideas would be shunned. Tell me, what administrator would allow her staff to try new ideas and concepts?

In a private system, management of schools would be "cover-your-ass" and "let's not draw undue attention to ourselves"; let's just keep the test scores up. And if you think that's not true, check out those administrators in the public system now, who have mistakenly bought into the fraser Institute metrics: scared shitless to try anything innovative!

Chris H on Kit Krieger:

That fact that the agreement has been gutted surely can't be blamed on him. Surely that blame lies with the gov't.

As to the West Van local having one of the worst collective agreements in BC; again, why would you blame Kit. Having a bad agreement has been a fact in West Van long -- very long -- before Kit was ever involved in BCTF politics.

We may disagree on the merits of Kit Krieger, but you need to at least be fair in not blaming him for things he had no control over.

Moat
I can't speak for Alcibiades but I'll say, on my own tick, that I have no problem with private schools. I do have a problem with public financing for private schools. As a matter of fact, I went to a private school myself. My parents paid the freight and got no help from the public system. I have no philosophical or personal animosity toward anyone who wants to do that. It was a great sacrifice for my parents in my own case but that's beside the point.

I think public funding for private schools tends to do the same sort of thing that specialist private for profit surgery clinics do to universal public health care.
One, they take funding away from where it is needed; and two, they tend to poach on the public system in a variety of ways that I'm sure you’d acknowledge.

I think your ideas are interesting and probably worth further discussion and exploration – given the codicil above specified. If you are thinking of the charter schools option, I understand that the Rand Corporation has recently published an analysis of California’s charter school experience that you might be interested in looking at.

Elliot, for his part, as I’ve already said, is really nothing more than an amusing interlude. He’s easy to dispense with. The problems engendered by the current government and its attitudes can’t be ignored with similar ease.

Cheers.

Elliot:

Please help us get back on track then: what is the focus (that is, what do you give a rat's ass about?).

Moat:

Laudable objectives that I think are more likely to be realised in the public system than in any private school.

"jinny's more important than them. i mean, after all, she's a teacher with a degree in education, and she has links to rosa parkes and nelson mandela."

Actually, I think Jinny's links were to Nora Parkes. Must have been Rosa's little sister.

"We may disagree on the merits of Kit Krieger, but you need to at least be fair in not blaming him for things he had no control over."

Teachers blamed him for agreeing to a deal over the summer without the consent of the membership. An agreement that teachers didn't think he should have agreed to. While you cannot blame him for Campbell's actions, there is nothing left of what he "bargained" for us.

Who bargained the collective agreement for West Vancouver teachers? It would have been representatives from their local. Why would I want the president of a local to represent all BC teachers when they couldn't achieve much at their local level? Doesn't make sense to me.

Anyways, Mr. Kreiger was the best thing that could have happened to Teacher Viewpoint candidates to the BCTF Executive. The anger at his actions made the BCTF a much more grassroots organization. It is now impossible for the Executive to make backroom deals without the membership's agreement.

I love Jinny Simms.

Chris H:

Not to flog a dead horse, but you repeat your previous errors. The situation in West Van was hardly Kit's doing; how far do you want to go back in history? That's how long West Van has been sucking hind-tit. Do you somehow expect ONE local president to undo years (decades?) of piss-poor bargaining in just his presidency? That's hardly fair.

Would you also condemn local presidents in the Okanagan or the Gulf Islands as incompetent because the contracts there sucked for years. On the other hand, was the local president in the Queen Charlottes a bargaining genius?

A further dead horse: if there's nothing left of the contract, how exactly is that his fault; he wasn't a member of the cabinet that gutted it.

Sharingisgood:

I like her well enough when she stays out of the lime-light. The more she speaks, the more she gets on my nerves.

What Jinny seemingly fails to comprehend (perhaps because she's a teacher - ) is that, just because she repeats something over and over again doesn't (a) make it right and (b) require the other party -- the gov't or the public -- to accept it.

On point (a), I generally think she IS right. However, she needs to dig into her teaching methodology texts and remember that repeating something does not constitute good teaching (or good propaganda or good PR). I just want to shake her and yell: "change the record already!". It's kinda like GWB constantly telling us about "terr'ists"; it don't make it right nor does it convince us.

Doesn't the BCTF have anyone who's more media savvy?

Why wasn't the situation in West Van Krieger's doing? Wasn't he on their local bargaining committee when they had local bargaining? Wasn't he bargaining chair? Didn't they come to inferior agreements? Why wasn't West Van able to get what other Lower Mainland districts did? Hey, bargaining is a hard job, and I have no doubt Mr. Krieger is better at it than I, but do you send in someone with a poor batting average when it counts the most? I find it hard to watch when he carries his sign saying that West Van teachers are the lowest paid in BC at every BCTF rally. From a guy who bargained those wages with his board and then gave all the teachers of BC 0-0-2, I find it perplexing. The fact is that he gave in when the teachers of BC didn't want him to. You can't say that of Sims, Chudnovsky, or Worboys.

I don't know, I find Jinny Sims strong suit to be that she doesn't try to be media savvy...and because of that she is.

She isn't slick or glib like the Campbell crew. She just comes across as honest, committed and true.

grub wrote:

This is the problem with the left. Wether it be the union or the environmental movement... Sometimes they simply forget that image DOES count.

This problem goes far beyond Jinny, who at times shows flashes of brilliance.

Hmmmm, which leads me..... how would Michael Campbell come across as head of the BCTF? With his tone, mannerisms, etc....

grub and G West,

Please don't get me as an advocate for the current private system. If my child was school age, I would NOT be sending him into the private system (unless I could afford St. Georges).

I would like the government to get out of the way, and allow teachers to be innovative and set up their own schools. Regulation should be minimal....In theory, some of the best teachers would become very wealthy, and their innovative methods would be copied by those teachers who view their work as "just a job".

I think this is the only way that certain members of the public will see that innovative education does cost money, and that teachers do need their freedom to create the best system possible.

As well, it would be nice if the education system could lure "industry" people away from their jobs, at least for the short term.

Imagine a researcher at a biotech company changing jobs with a high-school science teacher for a year. It would be a win-win for both if it was voluntary and that both had the personalities to make such a change. The biotech worker would be refreshed from the change, and the teacher would have some insight into the latest industrial innovations.

However, in the present situation, the biotech worker won't give up his salary to teach, and the science teacher has to prepare her class for the exam.

But in a private system with less government regulation regarding curriculum, the possibilities are endless.

But hey, these are just discussion ideas, and maybe we do have to consider the greatest good for the greatest number.

I wonder if Grub believes that the mainstream media would give Jinny anything but the worst possible sound bites and camera angles? I have seen Jinny in public five times, and she is glib and brilliant and kind and everything I would hope for in a teacher who is a trained counsellor. She is an ethical person. Our Premiere Campbell looked incredibly callous and small on live cameras just after people decided to stand down during the 'October Crisis'. Sadly, I never saw that footage again. If any of the BCTF executive had appeared that way, we'd still be seeing it everytime the BCTF was in the news. The mainstream media does not want to show a union organisation in a good light, it is against corporate values. After-all, it is harder to wrest resources and services from an educated citizenry.

Moat:

I'll stick with my radio comparison. You might get innovation at COOP radio. Or campus radio. And in fits and starts at the CBC. But what's innovative about private radio? It's all formaula driven.

Thus would be the future of all-private education: formula -- read Fraser Institute metrics -- driven.

For insight into innovation -- NOT -- in private schools, look at the Taliban-like Christian schools. Are they doing anything innovative, or are they buying their materials from bulk stores in the USA? Are these the schools that will propel our children into a new era?

In the system you propose, I think there'd be a few COOP schools -- like COOP radio -- that would be trying new stuff. But, now tell me, how many COOP radio hosts are well paid?

Sharingisgood:

I don't entirely disagree. However, George Heyman, for example, has perfected a media presence.

As Moat says:

And I find it particularly regretable that teachers, of all unions, can't put up a better media image. Worboys was an unmitigated disaster, media-wise.

I abhor poor teaching. Why can't these teacher presidents at least "teach" well when in front of microphones? That's part of the job of a president -- REPRESENTATIVE of the BCTF to the public.

lynn on Sims:

I'm sorry, repeating the same message, using the same words, ad nauseum, doesn't cut it. Sure, stay "on message", but please vary the tune, eh? A good teacher finds new and innovative ways of saying things -- to meet all learning styles.

Chris H: a last word on this topic. It's apparent that you have no idea how difficult it is to undo years of poor bargaining and lousey contracts. Are you under the impression that a new negotiator comes in and says: "we want to catch up 20 years of neglect and getting shafted."

Well, he might say that but, trust me, it ain't going to happen (been there... didn't get that T-Shirt). Negotiating means taking a long-term view. It means chipping away at seemingly unmovable impediments bit by bit, year by year. And I'm talking perhaps a decade or more of "year by year" impovements.

As an aside, that's what makes the government's callous disregard for contracts, freely agreed to, so galling. If contract provisions were as easy to achieve as you seem to think, it might have been a case of "easy come, easy go". But, no, these contracts were the culmination of years of hard bargaining and concessions made in good faith. That's why it wsn't "easy come, easy go". That's why teachers have every right to be pissed-off.

That's why I'll argue with the Elliots of this world that teachers are very willing to walk the line for months should the gov't seek to screw them again. The gov't's dastardly deed will not soon be forgotten.

Anyway, Chris H, getting a good contract (in West Van, or elsewhere) is more than a matter of stamping your feet and insisting upon it: that's not the way negoatiations work.

grub - and others
Nicely concluded. Not much I'd add to what you've written this morning. It is a long struggle and ordinary people and their needs and priorities have been in a holding pattern, or losing ground, for a while now. A little impatience is understandable. Still, everyone does need to keep their eyes on long term goals and not assume that a handful of favourable contracts in this particular set of negotiations means that there's been any kind of a shift in the fundamentals. Moreover, that looking after one's own welfare, as union members, is not the only important obligation of responsible citizens. There's lots more work to be done.
Cheers.

Grub,

Though I do understand your radio analogy, I do not completely agree with it. Remember, radio is a passive medium, and the classroom is (or should be) and active area. I think this related to Mcluhan’s “hot” and “cold” media discussion.

At any rate, radio participation is low, and requires very little interaction. You don’t like the station, song, or commercial, you simply switch. This cannot be done with schools because of so many other dynamics.

And as for your comment….

This is already happening – because THE TEACHERS ARE FACILITATING IT. Hmmmmmmm, who marks those government exams and FSA tests that the BCTF complains so bitterly about? The teachers do! Who creates those exams? The teachers! Some are very willing to put their values aside for a few extra bucks. And there are always a handful of teachers ready to write letters to the editor and bash their colleagues on job action so that they can appear to be “all about the kids”.

Our schools are already formula driven, and have been for some time. Why do be afraid to try something new?

Now grub, I am NOT asking for a further trial of the clunky private system we already have. I actually fear a private system for the same reasons you do.

But, until teachers take a true stand across the continent they need to decide whether to act like professionals, or as government union workers. This “in between” stuff is dangerous.

What I am saying, is that we need change, and if teachers do not take the initiative, the government alone will dictate it. And could you not blame them? That is what they are “elected” to do.

"Anyway, Chris H, getting a good contract (in West Van, or elsewhere) is more than a matter of stamping your feet and insisting upon it: that's not the way negoatiations work."

No, it's not stamping your feet. There's give and take. And, if the other side is unreasonable, you mobilize your members for action. The locals that went on strike during local bargaining achieved good contracts and paved the way for others. That's why places like Terrace had such good contracts. They could mobilize their members and walk off the job during lunch! In 1998, the BCTF Executive folded their hand and accepted a bad deal. That will be Krieger's legacy.

West Van could have pointed to North Van and said that they would walk if they didn't get the same. And, then back it up with action.

Really, that is why the NDP legislated provincial baragining. It was too easy to bargain when you could do it locally. One local would go out on strike for three weeks, their board would cave, and they'd get the contract they desired. The next district would see that, and the teachers there would demand the same. The snowballing of agreements is what led to most of the gains across the province. That is how bargained worked during local bargaining. Any wonder why the BCTF is calling to go back to local bargaining?

Oh well, if local bargaining happens again, I guess West Van teachers are in for more inferior contracts. They wouldn't want to stamp their feet I guess.

Chris H:

OK, good point. But, given that locals are democratic organizations (I wish all the right-wing nutbars would recognize this), if the local membership isn't up to walking out, that can't be blamed on the leadership (I really don't want to come off as a Kit Krieger fan, I just think rational observations and conclusions are called for). Could it be that the West Van local executive perfectly reflected the membership? If so, what more could they do?

Given that this membership teaches my kids, I doubt very much that fire-brand rhetoric would rouse them to the firing-line. Having said that, I sensed keen resolve amongst this group during the fall walk-out. But, again, I don't think it was rhetoric that got them out; I think they were every bit as pissed as the rest of the province.

Moat:

Well, we already KNOW that the gov't dictates. So the answer would seem to me to be, consistent with the topic of this article, to become less "professional" and more like union workers.

As such, teachers must insist, by way of strike action if necessary, on negotiating working conditions like every other union.

[Fer krissakes, stop talking about "learning conditions"... it's working conditions you wish to improve! Be selfish for a change! Let parents worry about learning conditions. And if learning and working conditions turn out to mean the same thing occasionally -- WHOOPEE!!]

So, in one sense, we agree; this middle ground between professionalism and unionism is dangerous. There's no shame in being a union worker.

An interesting aside to the discussion on this topic. Why is it that the BCTF or teachers in general incite so much polarized debate in BC. I suspect The Tyee could throw up a story tommorrow about the BCGEU or the nurses union and relatively little discussion would follow, and most of it would be relatively moderate. But toss out a story like this about the teachers, and not even a story about the current negotiations, and voila, you have both you lefties tearing out your hair defending the poor darlings and us righties tossing fairly hardcore insights from our side of the fence.

I know part of the answer is the recent illegal strike they embarked upon (looking at the discussion up the thread about it not being illegal until the end, all I can say is the author of that pearl must have been out of province during that particular time). But even before that, they are one labour group (please stop calling them a profession, they truly are not) who has always incited controversy and strife in this province. Why is that?

Once again, I will, for the third time, ask the question on why the HEU was able to settle but the teachers are not.

j'dude: here's my insight FWIW...

Labor relations for teachers developed along "different" lines than those followed by other public sector groups. To some extent, teachers were "marginalized" (I use the term with some caution).

In earlier years -- pre Vander Zalm -- teachers clearly were not a "union" and were not premitted to strike. In those years, impasse resolution came in the form of salary arbitration. Teachers did well-enough financially in those days, but chaffed under the constraints of not being able to bargain working conditions.

Vander Zalm changed all that, but successive governments semed unwilling to truly turn teachers loose when it came to striking. I think that's a function of the populous seeing schools as daycare centers. I think what this province needed back then was one good, prolonged strike to establish for parents that it's OK to have kids out of school for a few weeks and for teachers that striking could be financially painful. Teachers ought to have been allowed to act as union workers.

Further, every Tom, Dick, and Jane thinks he/she can teach and thus won't acknowledge that teachers are actually worth paying for. Nobody would dare assume the same of nurses or even bus drivers. So the public (who would be scared $hitless stepping in front of a secondary school class) thinks teachers' demands are too high and they refuse to even contemplate the working conditions ("well when I was in school, we have 101 students in our class and we all learned calculus" crap).

Anyway... just a quick kick at the can....

juskatladude

Ah - "hardcore insights" from the right - so that's what you call them. I must admit they did seem a bit pornographic to me.

grub wrote:

I agree. Teachers need to stop hiding under "learning conditions" and say that it is salary they are after. There is little shame in that. Then the public can look towards how much education it takes to be a teacher and how to attract and retain the best personel.

And for juskatladude.... yes, you can do teaching on the cheap if you want behavior managers and "do this, then that" teaching. In fact, if you read some of my earlier posts, you know that I would like the government to allow for some of that for those who insist on the voucher system. If you want a school not to pay their teachers very much, so you can save a few $, then should should have the right to put your child in such as school. Just like you have the right to feed your children McDonald's everyday (mmmm, burgers).

But at the same time, I want the system to be deregulated to allow the most innovative educators to create their own curriculum and test it on the open market. Eventually, I predict, the public would demand a return to a properly funded education system to level the playing field. However, this may be painful for a few students whose parents did not care to make the most informed choices.

Good educational choices can be made no matter where one fits on the "political spectrum".

Grub,

I can see where you are going with your kick at the can. But it still leaves my question of why the BCTF and teachers incite such passioned debate.

There are precious few who believe that they currently make what they are worth. That is human nature. All of us want easier working conditions and more pay. The teachers have not gone into uncharted waters with this concept. But unlike so many before them, they simply will not budge on their view that they are entitled to everything right now. So again, why is this? And why do so many of us spend seemingly endless hours debating their plight when they differ so little from other employees of the province?

As for the argument that the populous sees schools as daycare centres, that one is straight from the BCTF playbook. Two reasons for not believing it. First, you only have to take a look at all of the extra-curricular activities that parents today are allowing their kids to participate in. Our parents did not let us take piano lessons right after swim club and then throw in karate tommorrow etc etc. This generation of parents is getting involved with our kids lives like no other generation. We are saving for post-secondary education (at least I am, and I hope you are!!). Education for our kids is huge.

Secondly, the concept that schools are daycares is bourne out of the custom of sending your kids off to school at 8:00 am every weekday and then either making arrangements for daycare after school or being home to greet them again at 3:00 every weekday. Sure, there are bound to be lots of disparaging comments made if the system goes down due to a teachers strike, but no more than if the bus drives go on strike in downtown Vancouver. We get used to being able to rely on these schedulable events. But, no, I don't think Joe or Mary Sixpack takes the view that he or she is sending the kids off to a babysitting service everyday.

"("well when I was in school, we have 101 students in our class and we all learned calculus" crap)."

Actually, I dragged out my elementary class pictures for my kids last October to let them know that the debate had two sides (not just those portrayed by their teachers). We counted on average 31 kids in each picture. I told them that I could not remember how many kids were absent on picture days each time. I also let them know that kids with severe disabilities went to a special school. There were at least one kid in each class to whom english was not their mother tongue. And there were plenty of kids who today would be labled as ADS etc. But we were also all scared spitless of getting the strap, so maybe that was a mitigating factor!!

Moat, my question was not that of how much teachers are worth. I could debate that ad nausium. It was, however, the question of why teachers are treated so much differently (both on this board and seemingly in general) than lets say nurses or social workers.

Oops, the BCGEU just reached a tentative agreement. All the more reason to answer the question of why the teachers are not able to do the same.

just...dude

In modern times any calling that requires 5 or more years of post seconday education with a minimum of a Bachelor's Degree is a profession. Teaching became a profession when the districts (province-wide) decided that it was in the best interest of students to hire certified teachers with degrees.

Webster's 3rd International Dictionary (1993) p. 2346 defines teaching "1 :the act, practice or profession of teaching."

Now, my nickers aren't in a knot over this: I have read enough of your posts to recognise one who acts out to stir things up and get attention. I just thought that this point needed clarification. If you don't want to consider teachers as professionals, perhaps you can take it up with the universities.

Juskatladude

Don Wright lays out the problems in teacher/employer bargaining in The Wright Report (2004) commissioned by the provincial government. One of his conclusions is that teachers and the boards cannot reach an agreement through free collective bargaining because teachers do not have the right to strike. The threat of a strike or lockout is the pressure required to reach a compromise in free collective bargaining, therefore, free collective bargaining does not exist for teachers. Wright reccommends a form of arbitration to solve this impasse.

As to why opinions about teachers are so polarized in this province, my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence, is that how one perceives the public school system depends on the quality of the experience a person or their children have had in the system.

Generally, I have found, that people who have had, or whose children are having, a hard time in school, are the most likely to have a negative opinion of the school system.

juskatladude,

Now, I do consider this a mess that teachers have created due to their inability to decide if teaching is a profession or an occupation (a unionized one).

So, here we go then.... let's look at unionized police officers, nurses, longshoremen, and some social workers. These workers often get the opportunity for overtime. A police officer who supervises movie sets and parades regularly can make over six-figures. Nurses can get overtime work as well.... However, a teacher that chooses to coach a vollyball and basketball team, as well as supervise a dance and plan superb lessons gets nothing extra. The "professional" in the teacher urges her to continue on, and take care with his marking, phoning parent even though it is a sunny, sunday afternoon. However, the "union" in her says, just do what you are paid to do.

Ok.... so no overtime, big deal.... there are the summers off and "safe" working conditions.

However, unlike other "professionals", the teacher cannot write off any learning materials, work space, computers, etc... perks and bonuses? Hmmmm, not monetary ones. I wonder when the last time the Kitsilano Secondary Math department got Canucks tickets from "head office" for their "clients" high Math scores.

So this is why teachers are treated differently....because they are in a unique position of profession vs. occupation.

Now don't get me wrong..... I think teachers are to blame for their current position. Remember, they are the ones that took 0/0/2% from the NDP.

Still, why bash a basically good group of people for the sake of bashing them?

juskatladude

I think another major difficulty for citizens who don't appreciate the role of teachers arises because parents have a tendency to think that they, as a result of their experiences as parents, are as capable as any teacher and could step into any classroom and replace them with a minimum of preparation and training: a reflection of the old attitude that those who can’t do, teach. A lot more parents nowadays have at least some university education and possess a pretty high opinion of themselves. I'd wager that many of the folks who are complaining about what they see as teachers’ greed are the same ones who delude themselves into thinking that they could replace Jane and Johnny's teacher on a moment's notice.

Our parents, who were less educated and worldly in a lot of ways than we are, were far less likely to make that assumption. Further, 2 months off in the summer is always an enormous bone of contention for other professionals. It shouldn't be. My son has just finishing his residency in radiology and most of the positions he's considering will give him between 17 and 22 weeks off to start. Now admittedly he's spent more than 5 years training for that position but he'll also get a hell of a lot more money than he would if he'd decided to be a teacher.

Most teachers don't take the whole two months off anyway, by the way - often because they're doing some kind of professional upgrading. Furthermore, and this is especially true of teachers at the elementary level, most teachers do spend a great deal of extra money (and time) on supplies and equipment - something that wasn't the case 25 years ago.

I'm not a teacher, but I've raised 4 kids and I've seen some bad ones over the years. However, no more, on balance, than I find in any other occupation - in fact, on average, the teachers I know are probably better and more committed to their responsibilities and obligations than most other professionals are. Teachers, especially during the last third of their careers, have nowhere nearly the level of perks and privileges that go with many careers in medicine, business or the law.

If you're so convinced you could do a better job why not try? Home school for a year or two before you decide teachers are such useless slugs.

Moat

As a teacher, I agree with you on the profession versus occupation schism. I was a proud member of the Canadian Association of Smelter and Allied Workers for 15 years and I definitely believe the BCTF should be much more a union and much less a professional organization.

That said, in my district, and I suspect the BCTF as a whole, I am a tiny minority. Whenever I point out that the only power working people have is to withdraw their labour, most of my colleagues give me a blank stare. When I point out that the class size issue is confusing for the public because it is both a working condition and a learning condition and we should separate the two, nobody will agree with me.

Most teachers do not identify with blue, or even gray collar workers. They identify with white collar professionals and the upper middle class. Kinda strange when I made more money as a mechanic than most of my teacher colleagues earn.

And, a qood percentage of teachers really do believe they need to sacrifice themselves to support the public school system so that striking is not an option for them.

However, every time the Campbell government pokes us in the eye, a few more teachers see it my way.

"Once again, I will, for the third time, ask the question on why the HEU was able to settle but the teachers are not."

Maybe because the HEU doesn't have to negotiate with the BCPSEA. Teachers got $40 million to help harmonize the grids across the province due to the Ready settlement. This was the amount that would pay for the BCTF proposal to do exactly that. Why is it that BCPSEA negotiates to use that money to make salary grids longer and bring down the pay of some districts? The BCPSEA is the only group that could make $40 million worse for teachers. If teachers could negotiate with a group that was accountable to the public then maybe we could get some agreements done. Teachers are tired at sitting across the table from the BCPSEA. Take Translink, make it worse by half, and you have BCPSEA. Anyways, bargaining hasn't even started yet for teachers. We hold our breath awaiting word from Mr. Ready what structure bargaining will take. Hopefully, it gets rid of BCPSEA and has us negotiate with our locally elected school boards and the Minister of Education.

bcpsea will go b/c it is useless, counterproductive, and bloody idiotic. guess who created it?

"I think another major difficulty for citizens who don't appreciate the role of teachers arises because parents have a tendency to think that they, as a result of their experiences as parents, are as capable as any teacher and could step into any classroom and replace them with a minimum of preparation and training: a reflection of the old attitude that those who can’t do, teach."

I don't believe that this is the prevailing feeling amoungst those of us who ask questions about the BCTF, and by extension, about the teachers. Yes, it is at times a difficult job, but would you prefer to be a nurse in emerg or a city cop on the downtown eastside? As I have repeatedly tried to convey, the teachers get scorned because they have this deep sense of entitlement, or at least they portray that they do. There are all kinds of crappy jobs out there, so what makes the teachers situation so much worse?

Where the BCTF opens itself up to utter belittlement is when it (she) compares their little spat with the government to historic movements (you know the one - the Nora Parkes, er I mean Rosa Parkes comparison). It is likely an unfortunate extension that teachers in general will get judged accordingly, but if you lay down with dogs, you can expect to get a few fleas.

Somebody mentioned that there has not been much negotiations because Vince R has not given his recommendations for a new bargaining structure. I agree, but why announce that you are going to schedule a strike vote for the end of June? Again, perception is that the teachers are bucking to get into another scrap. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the HEU or BCGEU made any similar pre-emptive announcements regarding strike votes.

juskatladude
The point, which you never tire of making, is not particularly germane. However, you might actually want to check the spelling of the name of the person you keep saying is an inappropriate avatar for the BCTF president. It's 'Rosa Parks'. I'll wager you don't even know what she actually did for the civil rights movement in the US.
Interestingly enough, Rosa Parks always thought the state of race relations in the United States even today was still a long way from perfect the last time I checked: Much like the state of Labour/Management Relations and minority rights in this country.
Currently, people can, and do, choose many 'heroes' and role models who are a lot less appropriate than Rosa Parks. If Ms Sims sees her as a model I can't imagine you and others being so churlish as to suggest it's inappropriate. Who's your hero? Henry Ford?

who's yours g? hedy fry?

Elliot
You are a model of inconsistency and nonsense seldom equaled in this fine country, or elsewhere I fear. Whack you down and you reappear, as if by magic, somewhere else - the perfect personification of a mole.

If you knew a single thing about what I've been posting on this site you'd realize I am about the last person on earth who'd pick a hero from among the ranks of Liberals.

You are truly so clueless that pointing out the obvious disconnect between your brain and your appendages is a waste of time. You clearly can't help yourself, poor thing. Who's yours? Jabba the Hut?

J'dude:

First, I'd like to thank you for your original question; it initiated some thoughtful and interesting responses. What's clear, there is no one answer to the question(s) you pose.

But to address your point cited here, I think someone else has already suggested that perhaps, if teachers actually had a dispute resolution mechanism available to them, then "stuff" could actually be resolved.

If it's to be a strike, then so be it. But the gov't has got to learn to let things run their course. If not a strike, then let's establish an agreeable arbitration process.

Right now, labor relations in the education sector is like coitus interruptus -- just when the pressures on both parties get to where the hard bargaining ought to start, the gov't interrupts the process. The results are never satisfying, but often messy .

Juskatladude

BCGEU held a strike vote last week. My brother works for UBC and voted on Friday. Why isn't it news, ask the media?

Grub

Excellent synopsis of teacher bargaining in this province :=).

j'dude:

Ah c'mon.... I'm no Jinny fan, but cut her some slack for misspeaking, eh.

j'dude:

You're right: perceptions are important. So, why not go into negotiations with a strike mandate already in your ass pocket?

I don't think it will be perceived as "bucking to get into another scrap" by seasoned negotiators on the government side. The strike mandate simply adds clout to teacher demands at the table. There's nothing wrong with that if it focuses everyones' attention.

Teachers should get as far away from militant unions as they can, but they won't.

Collectively, they are gutless and cowardly.

BCTF borrowed and wasted millions of teachers dues on an illegal strike action. LOL. In the real world such incompetence would hear two words, "You're Fired".

markalanwhittle:

Collectively, they are gutless and cowardly.

"Gutless and cowardly:, eh? And you have evidence of this?

As to your other point, why would you suggest they "get as far away from militant unions as they can"? Why is that strategically good for teachers collectively?

markalanwhittle:

Hmmmm... the BCTF just had an AGM. I didn't see anyone "firing" the executive, did you? And just in case you'r e unfamiliar with union affairs: union politics is VERY "real world".

As to the "millions" of dollars: they weren't "wasted" unless the membership thinks so. Having not "fired" the executive, the membership must not consider the dollars wasted.

Please familiarize yourself with the democracy of organizations.

Re: Jinny Simms,

In an earlier post, one of the attributes I gave Jinny Simms was that she is "glib". Please note that I meant that in the positive way, able to speak smoothly and easily (but not overly smoothly so as to be or appear to be insincere).

Re: Millions of BCTF membership dollars:
40,000 X $225.00 = $10,000,000.00 I'd say the BCTF membership can afford to give the executive a fairly substantial amount of money with which to wage war against the Liberals (or the useless BCPSEA), if they, once again, prove to be unwilling to negotiate.

My school district is but a 1.5 hours from the Lower Mainland, and it is already having to use uncertified replacement workers to fill in for teachers when they are ill. Two district principals told their staffs that they were not allowed to be ill on some days as they had no-one to replace them! The teacher shortage is really beginning to be a reality. Five years ago, high school students often thought that teaching might be a good field. Now that they have seen bad treatment of teachers in the mainstream media, heard our various Ministers call them criminals, and watched as services and supports for teachers and students erodes, the numbers of high school students considering teaching is on the decline. Why should they put up with the BS, they can make more money as a logger, carpenter, millworker, or nurse, or cop. I t will not be long before the government will have to up the antie considerably if they want anyone to come to the teaching table at all. The baby-boomers are just beginning to retire (in huge numbers) and they will continue to do so for 20 years. I have seen all kinds of mixtures of staffs, and I have found the best to be an homogenous mixture of young, middle and aging. This government has pushed the current balance toward aging and it will soon tip the other way. You need the energy and the experience to have the best outcome.

Grub
markalanwhittle is a known right-wing quantity from another dimension. He spends a lot of time blogging maliciously at the Toronto Star - ignore him, he's not worth the powder.
Sharingisgood - thumbsup!

G West,
"However, you might actually want to check the spelling of the name of the person you keep saying is an inappropriate avatar for the BCTF president. It's 'Rosa Parks'. I'll wager you don't even know what she actually did for the civil rights movement in the US.'

Might want to pass that one onto Jinny. She is the one who liked herself to Nora, not Rosa. Irony is such a fickle bird ain't it there fella.

For an interesting recap of last October's illegal strike (it is written in a fairly neutral style) and where the reference to Nora Parks come from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCTF

I know a woodworking teacher who has 11 special needs students placed in his Grade 9 class of 27. The special needs kids have problems with everything from attention, to listening, remembering, and severe behaviour which included oppositional defiant behaviour. He was told the school has no place else to place them. This is what one gets with increased class sizes and reduction/elimination of supports for special needs students. He is a powerful man and a teacher in his prime, but the stress of that class is killing him. He is talking about goint to work in a lumber mill where he knows the stress is far less and the pay equal to what he is now doing. With the extreme shortage of qualified shop teachers in the province, there will be no-one to replace him. Who will teach those skills, then? The students will then have even fewer choices next year. The hands-on learners will have nothing to hold them in school. They will quit school. They will walk the streets and they will get involved in the activities of the streets. They will commit crimes like breaking into Jus...Dude's car. The police will be involved. The courts will be involved. Insurance costs will go up. I will be able to say, "I told ya so" though I won't say it. By then, I may have immigrated to Sweden or Finland or Norway - where they respect the notion that the burdens, the resources, and the services of the planet are best when shared.

j/dude

You can't even spell, why would I accept your word about it? Given the intellectual paucity of what you have to say you may well be misquoting her. In any case, do you actually know anything about Rosa Parks? That was the point of my comment - apart from pointing out your syntactically challenged prose.

Furthermore, your apparent hatred for Ms Sims overlooks the fact that she was prepared to go to jail if necessary in support of her ideals. You may think that's laughable, I do not. I'm quite certain that a good body of opinion in Montgomery, Alabama was as dismissive of what Rosa Parks did when she was arrested in Montgomery Alabama in 1956 for sitting at the front of a bus as you are of Ms. Sims efforts in 2005.

Whoops, I just noticed a number of typos above. I clicked send before proof-reading. Ciao.

Why am I not surprised the reference came from Wikipedia?

Let's not get our backs up too much about grammar and spelling in this format. Some people do best with a hard-copy to edit. These electronic monitors play tricks on our eyes. Also, typing one letter feels pretty much like typing another, and this is why the youngsters don't get so hung up about spelling on their chat lines.

I say let's save paper and forget the hard copies, put some effort into proper spelling and grammar, but let's not get too compulsive about it.

SharingIsGood
I agree with you. On the other hand, I'm sick of the continual references to Rosa/Nora/Parkes/Parks etc. In my opinion, the poster in question is making a personal attack on Ms Sims for questionable and suspect reasons. If he or she has a point go ahead and make it but if all this is about is slapping away at someone who obviously has the courage of her convictions (whether one believes in them or not) in my opinion that is beyond the pale. Forums like these are no place for personal attacks but if someone like the above referenced poster continues to make them I don't feel at all constrained about pointing out his grammatical shortcomings - among other things.

G West:

I thought, for a brief synopsis, the Wikipedia entry was quite good (although the Nora Park reference was gratuitous IMHO).

G West:

Agreed. In the heat of a media scrum, i think one is entitled to misspeak occasionally.

grub
Wikipedia, in my opinion, is knowledge 'lite'. It's not very satisfying and often gives readers the impression they understand something when frequently they don't. I won't even deal with the fact that much of what's posted there is actually wrong. Internet geniuses can also suffer from the same tendency.
Cheers

g west; you are a perfect lefty. 'i disagree so it must not be factual'. is there a place on commercial drive where you guys can take denial lessons, to be followed by a crash course in revisionist history. i heard louis riel is a hero.

Elliot
The marvellous thing about you is that you can always be counted on to step up and prove my point by saying something stupid. You're right about Louis Riel though:

A lot of native Canadians and Metis do think he's a hero. You can probably check that one out on wikipedia.

nothing wrong with thinking he's a hero. to some he was. that's not good enough for the lefties though. they want to change history, to say it was a mistake to convict a man who lead an armed uprising against the gov't of the time. you can bet it's the adrienne clarkson/toronto intelligentsia crowd leading this charge, with, who else, the cbc championing the cause. what a crock.

Elliot
trust me elliot, stay out of toronto. You wouldn't last there - they'd eat you up and spit you out.

G West,

You are sounding particularly cantankerous these last few days. You really have to learn to chill a bit. Go down to the other end of your double wide, unspigot a box of your best wine, put on that special Spice Girls cd of yours and chill. Have a look inward to determine where the rage is centred.

G West; A recent study comparing Wikipedia with The Encyclopedia Britannica found the two to be comparible in accuracy, clarity and depth of coverage.

They found similar error rates in both, I don't off hand recall the error rate, but it was quite low and similar for both publications.

uh-oh! g west is getting picked on. watch out for a human rights complaint.

Bailey
I saw that study. If you look at the depth of coverage issue and the methodology a little more closely I think you'll find it is a trifle light. Further, in order to actually get the most from Wikipedia you have to frequently follow a variety of links to material that is not consistent in its accuracy either. My main complaint though is about the ability every Tom, Dick and Harry is permitted - even encouraged to post in addition to the main entries.

THe content is almost never reviewed or corrected and can contain the most outrageous exaggerations, claims and outright falsehoods. It you want an example, search for this name and follow all the attached materials - Heather Stilwell.
Anyway, I'll stick with Britannica, my own library and my own internet searches.

juskatladude
My crankiness will pass; your ignorance is with you for life. Sorry about that.

Elliot
Isn't someone waiting for you to make a delivery?