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What's Next for Jim Green and Vancouver's Civic Left
Vision will go it alone, say key players.
How's this for pain? Jim Green loses the biggest fight of his life, barely, and about 40 hours later, he's in the hospital passing a kidney stone.
But now he's on his feet and considering his next step.
Despite rumours good friend and federal NDP leader Jack Layton is interested in recruiting him, Green says he won't be running against Svend Robinson to try to take Hedy Fry's Vancouver Centre federal seat.
"I can serve Vancouver better in Vancouver than as an opposition person in Ottawa," Green says in a phone interview. "Being a critic isn't my goal in life. I really want to do things. There are some developers I find extremely ethical and creative and architects I'd like to work with."
But, of course, he'd much rather be in the mayor's seat guiding the Woodward's project to completion.
If Green had beat Sam Sullivan, unity on Vancouver's left wouldn't be an issue now. But some of the primary engineers of COPE's 2002 electoral success say division is the reason Green lost.
And when it comes to identifying who drove the wedge first and deepest, the fingers start pointing in all directions.
'Take responsibility'
"A crucial point of any campaign is inoculating against the other team's message," says former COPE board member and communications director Nathan Allen.
"The NPA ran on the slogan, 'A unified team, a unified plan for Vancouver'. And when COPE and Vision could not run a unified campaign, people could see some truth in it."
Neil Monckton is the former COPE board member and campaign planner credited for re-branding the party and directing its rise to power in 2002. He says both sides must share responsibility for the division.
"No one is claiming the victory on November 19. When you lost majorities on all three boards, it's a loss."
"Leadership of both COPE and Vision have to take responsibility," said Monckton, who came to civic politics in 1999 from an NDP background. "They have to get together. They don't have a choice. It will be up to the members to make sure the leaders don't take part in a fratricidal affair."
Vision aims to go solo
But the Vision Vancouver camp seems intent to stake their claim on the left and put COPE out of its misery. Vision's executive team say the split is done and gone; now they're tilling Vancouver's political soil for grassroots strength and longevity.
Vision's original quarterback, outgoing Mayor Larry Campbell, dismisses critics who say his party can't make it alone and guarantees Vision councillor Raymond Louie will be mayor sooner or later.
"I'd remind these people that we won four out of the five seats we ran for," Campbell said in a phone interview before flying to China. "COPE elected one out of five. The NPA only elected five out of ten. There is a resonance with people with Vision and there is no resonance with COPE."
Green argues that while Vision is accused of weakening the COPE brand in the split, in fact, opposing ideologies in the party simply made unity untenable.
"We didn't stay and fight to the death, we divided assets when we saw it wasn't working," Green said.
"Neither Anne (Roberts), Fred (Bass) or Tim (Louis) would support me for mayor. Tim said he was glad Sam won; he called me a businessman with no morals. We know he was telling people to vote for Sam, so that is his version of unity."
Campbell's executive aide Geoff Meggs, a strategist with communications and polling expertise who worked for former NDP Leader Glen Clark and B.C. Federation of Labour head Jim Sinclair before helping Monckton build the new COPE, says the COPE Classic councillors doomed themselves by ignoring the fact Labour played a key role in creating them.
Pictures from the honeymoon
There was a brief time, not long ago, when everyone in the COPE coalition got along.
The story of COPE's stunning sweep to power and swift crumble has all the elements of a romance-tragedy, and all the niggling, petty details of a real-life divorce.
There's the thrilling courtship of a star candidate, consummation on election night and a brief honeymoon. Then comes a collision of cultures, financial squabbles, irreconcilable differences and the inevitable blame game.
Meggs says Monckton was "absolutely pivotal" to COPE's new success, bringing brilliant organizational talents, lining up Labour backing and formulating plans to build a "mass-based party" able to elect majorities on all three boards in Vancouver.
Monckton and the COPE board, including Meggs, former mayoral candidate Carmela Alevato, union employee Anita Zaenker, Vision Vancouver's campaign planner Michael Magee, polling expert Bob Penner, David Cadman, Tim Louis and others, built COPE membership up from a few hundred to a few thousand members in 2003.
Da Vinci for mayor
In 2001, spurred by polls showing COPE was increasingly competitive, the board made a decision to promote candidates with maximum name recognition for council.
Larry Campbell had retired as chief coroner in 2001 and applied to be police chief, but didn't win that job. Still, he was a big player in town with a ton of name recognition from his input on the script of Da Vinci's Inquest, the CBC crime drama inspired by Campbell's gritty work.
Campbell's introduction to COPE came when Green invited him to speak at a party brainstorming conference called Think City.
"I've been friends with Larry Campbell since about '87 or '88," Green said. "I always had a lot of admiration for his creativity. And I promoted him heavily in provincial government to be chief coroner and he won that."
"As coroner he had a very good insight on things like economic development and issues in the DTES. So I invited him to Think City."
Green says Campbell's innovative ideas, humour and compassion made a huge impact at the conference.
"COPE's core of people at Think City were very impressed with him. He really showed he was in line with the thinking," Green says, adding the ferment of compassionate problem solving ideas and ideals hooked Campbell too. "So we talked about finding a role for him in COPE."
Cadman pushed aside
"They impressed me as a group of people with an understanding of issues and desire to solve problems," Campbell says. "And they weren't nutty. It was the first time I was involved with any particular party."
But with Campbell on the scene, COPE's board now had a bottleneck of strong candidates interested in running for mayor, and had to urge Green and Cadman, who made a decent run for mayor in 1999, to step aside.
After coming to an agreement, Green and Meggs met Campbell for a late breakfast one Sunday afternoon, at a Bread Garden restaurant on Granville.
"I suggested to Larry if he ran for mayor I could go for council, and he accepted after ten minutes of talking," says Green.
After the handshake, they called Cadman from the restaurant. Green says his initial reaction to the news was silence.
"He argued with us for a while, and then called back a few days later and okayed it," Green recalls. "He realized he couldn't have beaten Larry if I was backing him."
This version of events seems to run counter to what Cadman told The Tyee in a previous article. "I basically brought Larry Campbell on for mayor" in 2002, Cadman claimed
Instead, as Green and Meggs tell it, Cadman acquiesced to a fait accompli only reluctantly.
"For Cadman, there was a seniority question involved," adds Meggs. "And he had loaned COPE money in 1999. He has often said he stepped back when he could have won. He honestly believes it was a COPE win, not a Larry Campbell win."
Campbell also believes Cadman never accepted it was best for him to step down.
"Jim was comfortable; David was never comfortable. He sees himself as the person who should be leading COPE. I don't think he ever accepted that he didn't run for mayor."
Landslide
According to Meggs and Allen, Campbell catalyzed the perfect storm necessary for COPE's decimation of the traditionally powerful NPA.
"The city was ready to tackle the drug problem, and Larry was not a left mayor," Meggs says. "We already had four solid council candidates. The slate was strong, but Larry brought a whole new face. He straddled the line and I think the city was comforted that he was a cop and brought that background on drug issues."
"It was really interesting," Meggs adds. "The public filled in their perception of Larry from what they saw on the show, with the values of (actor) Nic Campbell. They (Larry Campbell and Dominic Da Vinci) are not the same person, but similar. My hunch is people assumed Larry reflected those values."
For his part, Campbell says he was so impressed with Meggs' ability to organize people and consolidate understanding that he hired him as executive aide on the spot in an elevator, the night of the election landslide.
Lites and Classics
But according to Green, the majority COPE council began to come apart almost immediately, with a fissure between COPE Classic ideologues and COPE Light pragmatics.
"Anne Roberts demanded I vote against Wal-Mart having a public meeting before the first caucus," Green says. "I voted against Wal-Mart eventually, but (I thought) they ought to have their due."
"They refused to have caucus solidarity or confidentiality. And Tim Louis made it very clear he felt he should be the leader."
Cadman also told The Tyee fractures between the COPE pioneers and the Campbell contingent arose quickly.
"You had Tim Louis and Fred Bass, who had already been councillors and had finished very high in the polls. And along came Jim Green and Larry Campbell," Cadman said. "Geoff Meggs, having come from the provincial side, was basically operating on the leader is the commander and we do what the leader says. That's not the way civic politics works."
'Labour's worst enemy'
But Campbell says the Classics didn't understand the business of governing.
"As soon as I got on there I realized they (Classics) were not Labour, and I believe Labour is a vital force," Campbell said. "They are Labour's worst enemy as far as I'm concerned. They were against the RAV, Hastings Park, the Olympics. These are all things that bring prosperity and things Labour wanted."
While Cadman eventually came onside with RAV, the breaking point occurred when Bass, Louis and Roberts voted against TransLink's ten-year transportation plan, which was backed by the Vancouver Board of Trade and most of the unions, with the exception of CUPE.
"At that point the unions said, 'That's it, we wanted this. Why are we supporting you?'" Meggs said.
"One of the problems that COPE had to deal with, was the thinking that it knew best how people should live their lives," Meggs added. "Sullivan would talk about Fatwas issued by COPE on Wal-Mart, the Olympics and the Indy. It was like we know how you will be happy. After you do it, you will agree."
Campbell vs. Louis
But it was more than ideological differences that killed the COPE council. Personal respect, most notably between Campbell and Louis, went out the window.
"There were a lot of strong personalities, and there are no angels in there," Meggs said.
"Tim saw himself as the link to the proud-left COPE heritage and was used to having caucus meetings at his house. Then along comes Campbell and people aren't meeting at Tim's on Sunday nights anymore."
But asked whether he could have accommodated Louis to alleviate friction, Campbell says it wasn't an option.
"Tim Louis is an ideological person who is, at best, an anarchist. This is a person who says Che Guevara was a good guy. There was no way I was going to have a caucus meeting at someone's house. This is not a communist cell, this is a major city we are running."
By 2005, acrimony between the Classics and Lights in council chambers was normal, but an October debate about slots at Hastings Park truly highlighted the personal and ideological factors that destroyed the majority council.
Before the final vote for the gambling project at Hastings Park, an angry gallery of area residents heckled Campbell, Green and the Lights every time they spoke in favour of the development plan. Campbell, by now clearly fed up with the dysfunction surrounding him, threatened to throw them out for disrespectful outbursts.
But Louis challenged him immediately and forcefully, saying, "I'd like to see you try it."
It underlined COPE's problem. The Lights were for Hastings Park because it would create 800 jobs, mostly for recently immigrated women, Green says.
And the Classics stood for grassroots neighborhood groups like the Hastings Park resident contingent, despite the wishes of COPE's labour backers.
Unity gambit
Meggs says contrary to Cadman's claims that Vision ignored a unity deal when Campbell was appointed to the Senate; a joint slate deal negotiated in July by the COPE executive was rejected by COPE's membership because Louis spoke against it and Cadman said nothing.
But Meggs says he doubts getting the sides together in July would have benefited Vision at all.
"I don't know if that would have helped us," Meggs said. "Look, we elected four and they elected one. COPE was not an undamaged brand. We've done a study. If they hadn't been damaged, then COPE and Vision would have been closer to each other in votes."
However, Monckton and Allen are still hoping for reunification.
"It's mainly just personalities on council that can't unite, not at the school and parks board level," Allen said. "If the same situation happens again next time, the NPA will win again. There cannot be two parties on the left side of the ballot."
What next?
Monckton says it's still too early to tell whether COPE and Vision will both appear on the ballot in three years, but finding common ground among moderate candidates will be key to any unity deal.
"I look for leadership of the two organizations to show some leadership," Monckton said. "They have to take responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen again."
But Campbell disagrees with those who say reunification is a must.
"Those people simply do not understand the concept of having a group of people trying to take us back to another age. I really believe they (COPE Classics) are still living in the '30s and '40s."
"As far as bringing COPE and Vision back together; it may be possible, but you have to get rid of those far left elements."
Sam Cooper reports for The Tyee on politics and other issues. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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Grumpy
6 years ago
Comments on "What's Next for Jim Green and Vancouver's Civi
COPE will survive as Vision Vancouver is a one trick NDP pony.
skeptikool
6 years ago
Most of my working life I have been a strong labor supporter and union activist but have questioned those that always see jobs as akin to the Holy Grail regardless of related social issues.
There was a missed opportunity, for instance, in not taking a unified stand against the RAV tunneling that the vast majority in the Lower Mainland would have understood and supported.
Grumpy
6 years ago
The sell-out of Vision Van. to the RAV lobby, will come back and haunt V.V. and the NPA in 3 years time, the curse of SkyTrain (OOPs RAV ain't SkyTrain!) and cut and cover construction will hit these two political groups like a vengence. COPE will make a strong come back.
Oh by the way Samwise, where are those 100,000 drivers RAV is going to take off the road coming from? Or is just Vancouver's Engineering's transit speak SamWise is repeating?
Can SamWise speak on transit issues or is he just the Engineering Dept. dummy?
See ya in 3 years chump.
allan
6 years ago
It's unfortunate all those players quoted above didn't have the smarts or foresight to try to get along.
As someone said "there are no innocents", just people trying to accumilate and control power.
In the end former mayor Larry Campbell comes across as ideologically driven as his most vocal COPE critics.
The backroom guys who put that COPE unity package together three years ago failed miserably to look beyond the short term.
It's unfortunate some of the other former councillors weren't given room for a response on this controversy rather than relying on backroomers who , no doubt, have a lot of explaining to do.
yarrow
6 years ago
I agree with Grumpy. I suspect it will be Vision who vanishes in the near future and not COPE.
satyricon
6 years ago
I personally think COPE 'Classic' doomed itself. They will have to accept some of Visions less ideological tones before unification is possible. While I do not support Walmart, I think they should have the ability to hold public meetings. While the RAV is expensive, federal and provincial money has been invested in our city that would have surely otherwise been spent out East. Also, is twenty years it will be impossible to imagine life without the RAV line with projections of growth in Richmond and Vancouver Airport. Jobs are important, so long as equal measures are taken on social responsibility. I think Vision balances this model well. Vancouver deserves some high-profile investment, the sky-train and Woodwards. Slots at Hastings Park and the Four Pillar program. We are trying to create a modern dynamic city here, not a utopian community for socialist living.
Stuart
6 years ago
It comes down to one simple fact, forget the spin.
Voter turnout was down 18%, Vancouver is a progressive city that could easily support a left wing council for decades. When COPE swept into council their support if you look at the voting map all come from East Van, Downtown
and parts of Kits, Larry and Jim and COPE let their ego's sweep them away . They figured and bought into the Larry Campbell hype that they could go it alone and forget where they came from. Larry got his golden handshake over RAV and voted for slots and increased transit fare, the Olympics etc. COPE was a grassroots party that propped up Larry and lifted Jim off his knees( literally ) and for that the COPE supporters got crapped on. Larry basically disenfranchised his core supporters while trying to mix and get more support from the beautiful people around town. Voter turnout goes down when voters don't see any difference between parties. Jim, I hope your working on your resume and Larry enjoy being king. Larry not wanting to step into someone's home because he says their a communist, what a clown, what he has in ego he lacks in brain cells. Good for NPA , united against the ego crowd.
Francesca
6 years ago
Sadly ... the Left did the proverbial ... circle the wagons and start shooting inwards.
What's this sniping about ... Jim Green brought Larry Campbell into COPE. No David Cadman brought Campbell into COPE. Give it up guys. Someone did.
Did the COPE classics want to govern? Yes ... and govern without compromise. Now they've lost control of the Woodward's development, they've lost control of Southeast False Creek. They've lost control of council.
Seems like they didn't have the foresight to govern in the long run. Entrenched forever as outsiders and in opposition ... but for a term ... a brief sweet taste of power ... before self-exile.
Just shaking my head here. They had their chance and they blew with all this stupid infighting. Far be it to conceive a decade in power. They let a lot of people down.
rockerbiff
6 years ago
The implosion of COPE rest solely in the hands of Larry Campbell and the people who selected him as Mayoralty candidate.
From the start Campbell was seen as a star candidate but not a team player nor a long term COPE member. Here is the drawback of running a star candidate that has little or no history with the party.
If the Vancouver left [fractured as it is] is ever going to sweep into power ever again and stay there it needs a dynamic leader that excites people [like Campbell did] but has a stronger alliegence to the party and what it stands for.
Until the Vancouver left gets its leadership formula balanced, it may well elect a Mayor, but not have him or her return after three years.
Coyote
6 years ago
Indeed bro,it is us usually that same "business union"/Blairite social democrat school of thought, supporting the essential business view of economcs and politics; it's all just about money and jobs.
And while I've been out of Vancouver politics for a considerable while, though a previous COPE sympathizer in its municipal politics, Stuarts comments immediately above are about right on, from my distant read of things.
Francesca
6 years ago
Let me add. Cope had control of Council, the Park Board, the School Board. It was all a fluke right! The Jennifer Clarke thing and the swing vote against near total Liberal domination in Victoria.
Far be it for Cope to act as if THEY are the natural party to govern.
The bitter in-fighting ... Far be it to let well enough alone and to conceive a decade in power. The bigger picture.
Easier to implode than to take power seriously. Maybe it was just plumb lack of experience.
PeteL
6 years ago
Meanwhile the left of centre Burnaby council chugs along like a machine. COPE just couldn't figure out how to maintain its hold as majority on council.
Three plus years ago the the moons and stars aligned to give us a shot at city governance. This type of alignment for a radically left leaning party occurs maybe every twenty-five years.
Vancouver demographics are changing, who can still afford to live in the city? Hmmm.
We can all moan and carp about Campbell this and Cadman that, blah, blah, blah.
At the end of the day our left simply tossed aside a chance to continue the long process of a progressive city in favour of personalities and principles that add up to nothing.
Since the election most posters to The Tyee seem to pin all the blame on Campbell and Green. I believe theres enough blame to go all the way around. But I will predict if COPE doesn't grow up it will be that side of the political left that will be shut out forever.
COPE better give its collective head a shake, regardless of whether Vision Vancouver survives or not. Bet it will though.
Francesca
6 years ago
As for Larry Campbell.
OK so what's wrong with the Woodward's development, Southeast False Creek, safe injection sites, compassion for the drug addicted, mentally-ill people in that ghetto called the Downtown Eastside, the hardship for the merchants and residents who work and live there, the chance --- maybe --- for some affordable housing for regular people in a city fast becoming one the most coveted and expensive places to live in the world. What about more "green buildings"!
Campbell was willing to find a middle ground. Developers and the business elites have their role ... and now maybe under Sam Sullivan they get it all.
Skip Tracer
6 years ago
Rockerbiff wrote:
Which is why the hardcore NPA came out to ensure Christy Clark didn't have a similar effect on them.
skeptikool
6 years ago
Coyote<
There is as much need for introspection by those elected to serve all, whether it's by a U.S. politician under siege by the my-country-right-or-wrong crowd, or a city councillor facing unreasonable pressure or venal demands from any quarter.
Regardless of Blair's attitude toward organized labour, his obsequiousness toward the U.S. Administration and support of, in my view, it's criminal assault against Iraq would have lost him my vote.
Working Man
6 years ago
There are some developers I find extremely ethical and creative and architects I'd like to work with."
Doesn't anyone else find this rather ironic?
No one is claiming the victory on November 19. When you lost majorities on all three boards, it's a loss."
"Leadership of both COPE and Vision have to take responsibility,"
This the point I have been making on this board all along. It is a bitter pill to swallow but a necessary one. Democracy is representing voters, not foising your dogma on them.
Most of my working life I have been a strong labor supporter and union activist but have questioned those that always see jobs as akin to the Holy Grail regardless of related social issues.
Well, jobs have this funny way of rasing the revenue to pay for whatever social issue you are interested in. Furhter, if you do not have a job, it tends to be "the Holy Grail" indeed.
Did the COPE classics want to govern? Yes ... and govern without compromise. Now they've lost control of the Woodward's development, they've lost control of Southeast False Creek. They've lost control of council
Also a very astute comment related very much to COPE's dogmatic and often obsolete stances. There is only thing we can all be sure of is that we cannot roll back time. All but COPE, that is.
Vancouver demographics are changing, who can still afford to live in the city? Hmmm.
Hmmm, indeed. Somebody else has clued in I see but not COPE as far as my take on it goes.
Sadly ... the Left did the proverbial ... circle the wagons and start shooting inwards.
The left tends to do that alot. Witness Mike Harcourt (one of BC's best premiers in my humble opinions), Lenin and Stalin as well. You do not lead a party that stays in power doing such things.
Which is why the hardcore NPA came out to ensure Christy Clark didn't have a similar effect on them.
The NPA carried out a brilliant coup de main in doings so and raised their profile at the same time.
But I will predict if COPE doesn't grow up it will be that side of the political left that will be shut out forever
Stop making so much sense, Pete. It is better to rant dogmatically than to adjust to voters!
Chris H
6 years ago
The Vision and Cope split caused the loss of the best school board Vancouver ever had. We now have Ken Denike, from Mission, ready to do battle with teachers in Vancouver. You wonder how that is going to make education better in our schools. Here's hoping the West Coast Express breaks down. Sigh.
rac
6 years ago
Regarding RAV, it was the province, not the feds that were pushing it. The feds, by some accounts were a bit of a reluctant partner. I doubt Larry's support for RAV had much to do with him becoming a Senator but who knows.
Working Man
6 years ago
I might add that it was the province that pushed for both Skytrain lines. I think that we are better off with them than without them.
Grumpy
6 years ago
COPE is certainly left wing, but it was not affiliated with the NDP, well look at Vision Vancouver, a bunch of NDP wannabees! This is the problem, people will not vote for vision because of this, but will vote COPE. It is the old BC Social Credit Party in reverse.
As for RAV, it will haunt both the NPA and V.V. and if Cadman doesn't read a book on modern public transport soon, he may be done in as well.
Satyricon's quote about RAV -
shows a general rose coloured glasses aproach to the debacle. SkyTrain has been in service 20 years and TransLink has failed to show any modal shift. All its doing, is giving existing bus riders a more expensive ride!
Just watch, RAV will drive the next civic and provincial elections - can you say FastFerry? Woe to anyone who supported RAV.
If COPE plays its cards right, there will be again a shift to a truely independant civic party!
tessa
6 years ago
I don't think we can reasonably expect COPE and Vision to magically reunite in the next 3 years. The best solution would be simply to run a coalition with an equal 5 council seats, and both supporting one mayor candidate. Otherwise, even if one party dies then it will drag the other one out of the race and we'll be left with the NPA again.
darcy.mcgee
6 years ago
Campbell's lying. The NPA didn't run for ten seats.
Why the Tyee didn't note this as a correction in the article, I don't know.
Or perhaps it supports the publication's bias.
skeptikool
6 years ago
Live with it, Grumpy - or is every thread going to be turned into an anti-SkyTrain rant? SkyTrain is here to stay and will grow to serve the whole Lower Mainland - as it should.
Many will recall that it was Socred, Bill VanderZalm's pet project - built to support the Expo 86 theme of Transportation. The following NDP government did not play politics by dismantling this phase of the system but enlarged it to serve more.
Contrast that with the Liberals sabotaging the FastCats. Yes, the Liberals! Their petty-mindedness prevented them from adopting modificationsd that would have seen those vessels returned to service. They didn't mind that passengers would sit in parking lots through two or three sailings - welcomed blame heaped on the NDP, in fact.
The most dismal aspect of the whole affair was the Liberals' give-away price of the ships for pennies on the dollar.
Throughout it all, the Liberals could rely on a favorable media spin from the major players.
dangrice.com
6 years ago
Skytrain, RAV, and the Olympics are here to stay..
But really, Vision did the only thing they could do to survive, they snagged the center and appeased voters desire to have a little of A, and a little of B. COPE doomed itself on council, but then again, they had no fresh faces and were the same tired old lot. We need pro rep, so we can at least ensure a balance of voters intentions. Hopefully Sam will follow through on his commitments...
BC Mary
6 years ago
That's the thing, isn't it, skeptikool ... the organized rightwing bigots have always been willing to undermine the economy or to heap blame upon an NDP achievement like I.C.B.C. Never seems to matter to the bigshot bigots how much damage is done to British Columbia, as long as it gets them back in power.
PeteL
6 years ago
Word around the waterfront is the FastCats will taste salt water again in the Straits of Georgia. Sailing between North Vancouver and Naniamo.
Skip Tracer
6 years ago
Hopefully the taste won't extend to any moving parts that seize up when exposed to salt water.
Just me
6 years ago
"Tim Louis is ... a person who says Che Guevara was a good guy," says Larry Campbell, as if that makes a point.
I liked Mayor Larry and although Vision still hasn't collected my Jim Green lawn sign I like him too. And I can see how Tim Louis comes across as a zealot. But this last statement hurts. Does this mean Larry Campbell thinks Che Guevara wasn't a good guy?
I always thought Che Guevara was a good guy — and my teenage daughter thought he was really cute in The Motorcycle Diaries.
We all know that the left is so used to being in opposition that even when it gets elected — old habits being what they are — it soon forms an opposition to itself. Politics as usual.
Still, I think Jim Green's top priority before he ever runs again is to make it clear where he stands on the really burning question: what kind of guy WAS Che Guevara?
grub
6 years ago
dangrice:
Accurate analysis.
Clearly Vision resonated more with the voters than COPE. COPE may come back, but they'll have to lose Bass and Louis. Exactly who in the city do they think they represent?
By the election results, obviously not enough people.
Working Man
6 years ago
Anyone that actually rode one might have a different opinion. Rough, noisy and cramed. Give me a Spirit boat anyyime which is incidently what BC Ferries wanted to do.
Wallace
6 years ago
Hey rac, Larry's support for the RAV boondoggle may well have helped Owen, as noted in another thread, and therefore greased his way to the senate cesspool. But, I think the real reason that Larry will suck the public teat for life, is the way he attacked the harper platform in the last federal election campaign. Stictly payolla and business as usual in our bastardized electoral system. Larry will now become a cheerleader for the vision of Canada held in the St. Lawrence corridor. Think not? Just look what happened to the formerly principled Owen.
kuma
6 years ago
COPE is certainly left wing, but it was not affiliated with the NDP, well look at Vision Vancouver, a bunch of NDP wannabees! This is the problem, people will not vote for vision because of this, but will vote COPE.
If this is true then why did Vision win 4 seats and Cope only 1? Vanvouver people will vote for a moderate social democratic vision every time if given the choice. The Cope classics only represent a handful of exteme left crazies. There is no point in untity until the majority of Cope memebers wake up to reality and stop living in the 1930's. Campbell was one of the most poplular mayors in Vancouver history and the classics basically gave him the boot. Good riddance to Bass and company!
As for RAV it is a very poplular and needed investment. When are you going to stop whining about it.
Stuart
6 years ago
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/funfacts/batist.htm
To Just me
Open the link for the conditions in CUBA before the revolution, the US loves to have gangsters like Batista run the country . Cutting all the rhetoric, just judge the conditions before and after the revolution, even with decades of brutal sanctions CUBA has a better education and health care system than most G8 nations. You always
get people who talk of dictators and democracy but when it comes down to it their just mad because its not their dictator. They would love CUBA to become another success like Haiti. Larry Campbell is a clown who
could not use his charm to get Jimmy elected, Jim forgot where it came from and the rest is history. Larry can take his bloated ego to Ottawa and never look back. COPE is also responsible for not acting more like
grown ups, lesion to the wise, don't go outside your party to find a style and image guy like Larry more concerned with public image than public policy.
ElRay
6 years ago
Maybe I'm Labour's enemy too even though I've seen myself on the left and voted for social democrats all my life. (Maybe Labour is not on the left?) Gambling is in the interest of ordinary people? "The Lights were for Hastings Park because it would create 800 jobs, mostly for recently immigrated women, Green says." Green knows as well as anybody else who pays for it; it's not the rich who are feeding slots and he's silent about the huge take the corporation creams off.
The Olympics are in the interest of ordinary people? And it'll be ordinary people who will pay most of the corporate welfare RAV will bring about. Is having the highest transit fares in the country brought about under Larry's leadership in the interest of ordinary people (or Labour for that matter)?
Besides, Larry has a problem with the truth. Jim Green and Geoff Meggs too. I remember very well an interview Larry Campbell gave on CBC News shortly before being elected where he unambigously came out against building RAV at this point in time saying that the line to Coquitlam was more important. I remember him running under a ticket that promised a referendum about the Olympic bid. (How silly of me to assume that this would be binding!) Jim Green lied about the need to call it plebiscite saying it would necessitate a new voters's list at great expense if it was called 'referendum'. What baloney! Jim Green's 'explanation' that a new voters list would be necessary if it was called a referendum and by calling it 'plebiscite' COPE was just trying to save money, does not hold any water. Both words mean the same and neither one is mentioned in the Vancouver Charter. (That's the law defining powers of council and procedures, etc.) It speaks of submitting questions to the electors. In fact no new voters list is ever necessary if Council wishes. Section 32 of the Vancouver Charter provides for using the provincial list and Section 27, which Council decided to use in the end, allows for registration at the polls on voting day.
P.S. I also think that Che Guevara was a better guy than Larry Campbell will ever be. He fought for the little people while Larry is stuffing his pockets in a useless (for the rest of us) Senate position and then for the rest of his life with a fat pension. (Does he think he's Labour?)
I guess I'm one of those far left anarchists Larry Campbell detests so much and yet for pragmatic reasons I've voted for social democrats all my life. I don't know if Jim Green is one or not but I did not - and never will - vote for a liar who thinks he can just do what he wants regardless of the wishes of the people who elected him.
Stuart
6 years ago
Good posts ElRay
The 2 defining moments for me were when Larry Campbell called the Bus Riders Union( a grass roots group from mainly the DES made up of young people) losers during a protest. The other was him casting the deciding vote
on the slots defying massive organizing and community involvement on the east side to stop them.
Larry's ego took over from day one, if you look at the voters map all of his support came from the East side , downtown and kits, voter turnout went down 18% , allot of young activist gave up on Larry in his little smart car darting around town tying to fit in with the arts community . One think about Sam Sullivan, he will not abandon his supporters to get a few good sound bites. Good riddance, who's the loser now , what happened to your supporters.
Grumpy
6 years ago
A $2.2 billion transit project not worth political debate? Oh I see, it's transit, it's just gotta be good. The NDP & Socreds built one and now the Liberals are building another, so its good?
RAC, your rose coloured glasses view of things, speaks volumes with the many problems we have in the region.
COPE was forbiden to run a mayorality candidate by the BC FED., or it's funding would have been withdrawn. If COPE ran a candidate for mayor, they would have garnered more votes.
ElRay
6 years ago
2.2 billion is not the end of it if past experience is any indication.
http://www.planning.org/japa/pdf/JAPAFlyvbjerg.pdf
And then, most likely, will happen the shortfall in ridership which will make us pay and pay and pay.
And some people's reaction is 'stop whining'. Maybe they'll be whining about their level of taxes then and sing the never ending song of tax cuts, tax cuts!
redrivergirl
6 years ago
This and the 24 hour construction is the worst of it all. This is where the betrayal is most evident. The P3 RAV is a deal no honest person would have entered into.
redrivergirl
6 years ago
I think a law needs to be enacted and retroactively that if you as a public servant enter into a deal that no reasonable person would enter into and one that exploits the taxpayer, and/or is clearly a 'dirty deal' you should be liable on a personal level. It may well happen yet.
satyricon
6 years ago
Grumpy, the skytrain, while a white elephant in hiding it may be in the present offers something more and more busses cannot. It takes up no road space, pollutes little in our hydro-powered grid, and can upscale capacity without much added cost, both economically or environmentally. If you are worried about the extra money spent, think on this. Every extra coin spent on transport (for over-priced projects or not) means one less coin that can be given away as a tax cut when the conservatives or vote buying liberals attain power. I say buy it when its offered, the money will not be around for long.
Working Man
6 years ago
If it were up to the left, nothing would get built. We would simply be stuck in endless steering committees and "consulations." The only solution they could agree on was more status quo and more welfare money for addicts.
I live two blocks from the Canada Line route and whole heartedly support it
ElRay
6 years ago
Working Man don't you ever get dizzy seeing everything through your ideological glasses?
People you're reacting to here (and on the thread about Larry Campbell following Rafe Mair's article) are concerned about the way tax money is spent. If it's wisely spent (and in the case of RAV it definitely is not as the cost estimates are already up almost 100 percent in realtion to the original "estimate" of 1.2 billion.) it leaves more for your crowd's beloved tax cuts.
But you appear to be short on data supporting your arguments and very long on empty ideological statements.
Btw Flevsbjerg is no leftie and is *the* authority on large public works projects in the world. The essence of large public works projects appears to be a giveaway to corporations and affluent people. You would see that if you actually read something about the subjects you're commenting on.
Why don't you base your arguments on some facts instead of empty rhetoric?
Gerhardius
6 years ago
That is pure SPIN. It is a number that has no relevance in this election because the voters list was the most complete it has been in years. The number that has bearing is total ballots cast.
2002 140,332 ballots cast
2005 132,072 ballots cast
Only 8,000 fewer ballots were cast than in 2002, the drop in turnout was closer to 7% than 18%. Discounting the 8000 fewer ballots, Bass still lost over 14000 votes and Tim Louis lost almost 15000.
This is not strictly true. While COPE's core support has been Kits, Downtown and North East Vancouver they have needed votes from outside the core to get people on council. The 2002 civic results were an anomaly in many ways. Larry Campbell had @ 40,000 more votes than his NPA opponent and 10,000 more than the highest polling COPE Councilor. This indicates that there was a large vote against the NPA and for the "change" represented by Larry Campbell. If you compare the voting maps as you suggest it appears that COPE did get in on Larry's coattails or on an anti-NPA wave. Compare the following voting maps:
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/election2002/mayorrace.htm
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/election2005/finalresults.htm
In 2002 the NPA was wiped out North of 16th Ave and won only 7 polls east of Cambie. They lost all of Dunbar & Point Grey and didn't get a look downtown. In 2005 they regained Point Grey & Dunbar, but it is east of Cambie that is most impressive. The NPA went from winning 7 polls to 33. In 2002 COPE was able to gain support outside of their stronghold, but in 2005 that extra support vanished including 20,000 votes for mayor and up to 14,000 for some councilors.
Turnout was only down by 8000 ballots but it was the COPE classic members who suffered the most. Aside from the aforementioned Bass and Lewis numbers, Cadman had 12000 fewer votes (5000 after accounting for fewer ballots) while Louie had 3000 fewer votes before considering reduced total ballots. Voters know that COPE classic is not Larry Campbell, COPE went to great lengths to make that clear to the voting public. The 8000 fewer ballots aside, why didn't voters support COPE? Perhaps they decided that Louis, Bass and the other COPE classic folks were too concerned with issues that waste council's time.
posted by Grumpy as I was writing this
If COPE had run a candidate where would the votes have come from? Would Vision have lost support? Would COPE have run Cadman again? He won over 35% of the vote in 99 and lost to Owen. Would running a mayoral candidate have caused a groundswell of support that isn't already there? COPE had their most influential time on council prior to 2002 when they worked with the "Civic Independents" and Mike Harcourt in the 80's, and completely failed every time they ran their own candidate for mayor from inside the party. Larry Campbell aside, COPE has not done well running for mayor but if COPE was "forbidden" to run a candidate by the BC fed that is their problem. I seem to recall that there was an attempt by some very strong right wing groups to get Christy Clarke the NPA nomination but the party members blocked that. Maybe it is time for COPE to find other sources of funding, perhaps that waterfront strip of Kits that votes COPE could provide some cash.
ElRay
6 years ago
Working Man are you saying the federal government consists of a bunch of lefties and Burnaby's former administration too? (Do you check under your bed before going to sleep?)
Consider this:
FAIR USE:
OTTAWA -- A secret federal government report dismisses B.C.'s request for $450 million for the proposed Richmond-Airport-Vancouver rapid transit megaproject and warns it faces "significant" risk of cost overruns, is unlikely to meet ridership projections, won't reduce traffic gridlock, and will do little to reduce Canada's greenhouse gas emissions.
The 16-page internal federal cabinet document, prepared by officials in several government departments and stamped "secret," warns that a federal investment in the $1.7-billion project would drain resources from other federal-provincial initiatives in B.C., ...
"Tunnelling in bedrock in the downtown core and in the area adjacent to and below False Creek may present particular challenges, since these sections of the construct will be below the water table and subject to infiltration," according to Infrastructure Canada.
"To add further complexity to the project, significant efforts will be needed during design and construction to address seismic considerations, as Vancouver is located in an area of high seismic risk."
But the report lists seven areas of risk "that present particular concern to the federal government as a potential investor."
Among those concerns:
- The $1.7-billion estimated project cost doesn't take into account the final results of geotechnical testing of the areas to be tunnelled under Cambie Street, False Creek, and beneath various downtown streets leading to Waterfront Station near Canada Place.
"Unanticipated ground conditions leading to delays in the construction schedule and changes in construction approaches can significantly drive up costs. Experiences in other jurisdictions indicates that tunnelling costs can be significantly higher than initiation estimates.
-The project's current estimate on capital and operating costs is dependent on transit ridership in the corridor increasing from its current 40,000 daily to 100,000.
"However, all rapid transit and commuter rail projects constructed in the Vancouver region during the past 20 years over-estimated ridership projections," it states....
The report says significant usage of the RAV line is dependent on the region's bus fleet of 1,200 growing by one third to feed into the line. However, the RAVP project team is proposing to "decrease bus services in the Richmond-Vancouver corridor and apply savings to the costs of operating the new rapid transit line."
A May report on the impact of rapid transit on greenhouse gas emissions suggestions the line would contribute less than 0.5 per cent of Canada's target, and this estimate "may in fact be an over-estimation."
The study's estimate didn't take into account the "quite high" emissions caused by project construction as well as the potential increase in car usage "that would result from roads gaining capacity where the subway would replace current on-street bus routes."...
Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan said the "secret" report sounds a lot like the one his city's transportation planner wrote months ago. ..."
Copyright 2003 Vancouver Sun
Gerhardius
6 years ago
Ooops, sorry about the math error
should read 4000 not 5000 and I spelled "Louis" as "Lewis" in a brain cramp. This in spite of proofreading.
ElRay
6 years ago
Gerhardius
Or could it be that a lot of people voted for him because they didn't want the Olympics?
Please don't give me the results of the plebiscite as proof to the contrary as many oponents of the bid may have just stayed home in the face of the barrage of pro-Bid ads.
Montrealers paid for 29 years for the 1976 games which weren't supposed to cost a penny to the taxpayer. A lot of people knew that and turnout for the plebiscite was very low.
Francesca
6 years ago
If Larry Campbell had stayed on to run for mayor under Vision Vancouver, he would have won. If Jim Green had run for city council under Vision Vancouver he would have won. The Cope "splinter" party would have dominated city council with a majority.
But it wasn't meant to be.
The COPE classics stuck to their principles and are back in the wilderness of [perpetual?] opposition.
As someone on this board said: The moon and stars aligned once in 25 years to give a social democratic party the chance to govern this city --- and govern well.
I'm not saying Larry Campbell was perfect. But for COPE to nearly immediately start to self-implode through in-fighting --- after winning city council, the school board, and the park board --- is plain sad.
Maybe it comes down to being good at opposition. But no so good at forming government.
Sometimes the extreme left and the extreme right are like two peas in a pod. They just don't know it.
ElRay
6 years ago
Working Man
Another bunch of lefties because they don't agree with you?
Two UBC professors with a special interest in transit have criticized a recent Vancouver city staff memo favouring a partially tunnelled Richmond/Airport/Vancouver Rapid Transit project. In the June 22 memo to the mayor and city councillors, three senior bureaucrats stated that staff "cannot support" putting the RAV project on the streets of downtown Vancouver and along Cambie Street north of 46th Avenue.
"It's curious that they would feel that way in light of Portland's successful example of running both the Max line and the Portland streetcar through downtown," said Patrick Condon, a professor of landscape architecture.
Peter Boothroyd, a planning professor and the husband of Coun. Anne Roberts, told the Straight that the staff memo was "an affront to democratic governance" because it dismissed transit options before city council or the public could have any input. ...
Condon said an ultralight-streetcar system would cost about $20 million per kilometre, compared to $100 million per kilometre for the partially underground RAV line.
"People who've had [a] modern streetcar in their neighbourhoods have been quite delighted about that addition to their landscape," Condon said. "It doesn't necessarily require the removal of the median on Cambie."
Boothroyd said that according to extensive research by Danish planning professor Bent Flyvbjerg, costs start soaring in nine out of 10 large public construction projects after they've been approved, yet this was not mentioned in the staff memo.
Flyvbjerg examined hundreds of projects. In the June 2003 issue of Eurobusiness magazine, he wrote: "For rail projects, for example, half of all projects have cost overruns of 45 per cent and higher. When this is combined with patronage [ridership], which for half of all rail projects is more than 50 per cent lower than forecasted, it becomes clear why so many projects have financial problems."
http://www.straight.com/content.cfm?id=3796
ElRay
6 years ago
Francesca
Gerhardius
6 years ago
What? What an interesting take on two different issues. The vote FOR Campbell in 2002 was about the Olympics, not about any of the other issues in the city? The results from the plebiscite:
Yes: 86,113
No: 48,651
Olympic Pleb 134,791 ballots cast
Results 2005 Mayor:
Campbell 80772
Clarke 41926
2002 election 140,332 ballots cast
You are arguing that the numbers from the 2002 election are somehow more relevant why? If the 2002 election was about the Olympics and the Plebiscite was about the Olympics, how do you explain that a completely different electorate seems to have voted in each election? Advertising forced the No side to stay home? It was something else that led voters to choose Campbell, maybe a Four Pillars Plebiscite would have returned numbers similar to the 2002 election, but to argue that it was the Olympics is desperation.
ElRay
6 years ago
Gerhardius
I asked a question and might have projected my own reasons for actually voting in that election.
If it appeared like a loaded question, I apologise. It wasn't meant to be.
Working Man
6 years ago
ElRay, like I said, blah,blah,blah,blab,blab,blab and no action.
kuma
6 years ago
Look at the sucess of the provincial NDP in the last election. Carol James presented a moderate social democratic option and was only 4 percent away from defeating the liberals even though the NDP started with next to no seats. Cope should wake up and learn something.
It seems like they enjoy being in permanent opposition to everything under the sun.
The olympics will provide a big boost for the toursim industry and they were approved by a large majority of people. We need jobs in this province and the olympics will provide some along with the Hastings slots. Or perhaps you would rather allow oil drilling off the coast??
Working Man
6 years ago
kuma, you make a very astute and valid point
.
They do. It allows them to play the perrenial "holier than thou" card. Being in government is a lot more difficult that being in opposition.
And holier than thou the NDP is not. Their scandals are among the worst I have seen.
Working Man
6 years ago
They are and in fact are equally conservative. Both a dogmatically rather than practically driven and neither form governments very often. When they do, thier dogma runs over their karma and they get soundly booted out of office.
ElRay
6 years ago
Indeed
Not anything ever to support any of your posts
gramscian
6 years ago
Of course if Vision wants to "go it alone" that would probably have to include opening itself up to something called 'membership'. Remember, this time it was a 'party' without members, nomination process or anything else resembling internal democracy. Of couse, Larry never had any patience for any of that, and it's not something he'll have to fret about as a Senator.
As for those here claiming that Vision councillor's did better with the electorate that COPE, let's keep things in perspective. Vision had wall-to-wall TV ads and a budget close to $1million thanks to the support of the city's big developers. COPE had zero media attention because it wasn't running a mayor, and very little advertising budget.
allan
6 years ago
kuma, the olympics were approved by a very small number of people.
Only the people of Vancouver got a say in it.
However, word is the rest of us will be allowed to help pay the massive friggin' deficit that arises out of the game.
So we do at least share the legacy, I guess we could say.
If you think the slots are positive economic thing for the city, I would recommend to you a couple of bridges you might want to add as well.
Slots suck money from communities.
Francesca
6 years ago
ElRay,
You've compared the COPE Lights with Tony Blair and the British Labour Party.
Blair and Britain are allies with the Americans in the war, and occupation, of Iraq. COPE -- classics and lights -- passed a city council motion against the war on Iraq. So you got the comparison wrong on this point.
Can you tell me how the COPE lights are the same as Blair and the British Labour Party?
Steve P
6 years ago
Regardless of whether Peter Boothroyd agrees with Elray, he leans to the "left".
Peter Boothroyd is on the far left of the UBC Planning School's faculty. He is also the spouse of COPE's Anne Roberts. I respect him and his work (I studied community economic development & regional planning under Peter), but he is definitely left-leaning. His professional work focuses on the links between social development and economic development. He also has been a long-time critic of Skytrain, on the basis that more service can be provided for the $ through increased bus service.
No comment on Patrick Condon.
ElRay
6 years ago
Francesca
I did no such thing, strictly speaking, as I asked you a question.
How can we compare a city government to the national government of the UK anyway?
Tony Blair's version of Labour has a lot in common with right wing political parties, e.g. some of his fiscal positions. He's also gone to war against the wishes of a substantial number of labour party members.
In terms of the arrogance of doing whatever they feel like regardless of the memebership's wishes and the sharing of some right wing positions? Yes I do see parallels between the two.
RAV, slots and WalMart are some of the things that come to my mind. The gratuitious insults of grassroots members (Bus Riders Union) or those to the left of their position is also something Tony and the Lights (I include Larry there) have in common.
Blatantly lying (eg the alleged need to call the promised referendum 'plebiscite' in order to avoid the cost of drawing up another voters' list) is another commonality though with respect to Tony Blair it cost British and Iraqi lives and is therefore much more serious. Shortly before the elections Larry appeared on CBC News and was at best lukewarm towards the Olympic Bid. It took only days for a beaming Larry to appear with Chretien and Gordo near the Convention Centre talking about the beautiful things the Olympics will make possible.
Call me old fashioned, or naive if you wish, but I expect honesty from the politicians I will vote for. I also expect them to honour their election promises. There are some, not many and maybe I'm lucky to live in Libby's riding as I consider her another example of being honest and sticking to her positions.
Sadly this does not apply to COPE Light and I did not vote for Jim Green although (regrettably) I voted for Larry Campbell in the elections before.
I respect the loyalty you have chosen towards the party of your choice and claim no superior knowledge about what political position is best. As I said, I voted for social democrats all my life for pragmatic reasons although I consider myself to the left of them. I think that it is perhaps better to be in opposition and stick to one's principles than to "sell out" in order to get into government.
Also, being in opposition - even perennially- does not necessarily mean being ineffective. Or do you think the Liberals would have brought in medicare if the NDP had not been demanding it for some time and in fact shown in Sask. that it can be done in Canada?
ElRay
6 years ago
Steve P
I deliberatley left the last bit in the article to be honest.
I did not know where he stands politically and have no doubts that you're right.
I did post a lot of data from other sources which are not exactly 'left'.
Maybe you just wanted to correct me on this one point. My intention was to make a more general statement.
ElRay
6 years ago
And gives a guranteed profit to the corporate operators of a game where they cannot lose.
If the social democratic idea of employment creation is to give a guranteed profit (the machines are programmed that way)to a corporation for some lousy service jobs then I might as well vote for the BC Liberals.
Not to mention the well known problems (inlcuding suicides) gambling operations create.
ElRay
6 years ago
Harold Pinter:
The left was supposed to be differrent
kuma
6 years ago
The chance of winning should simply be posted on the gambling machine and then people can choose if they want to gamble or not. The same as warnings on smokes.
Jan
6 years ago
While I myself am not a gambler.I have been to Vegas and what you find is an awful lot of people from Vancouver playing slot machines.Mostly blue hair seniors blowing a couple hundread bucks on a crazy weekend of buffets and hours of walking around with your own personilized change bucket with various daughters,son in laws,sons,aunts,nieces and nephews in tow. People gamble because they want to.And no amount of debate about the evils of gambing is going to stop people from wanting to play slot machines or from going to places like Las Vegas or the new casino in Langley/Richmond for that matter.So we can decide how much regulation and social benefits, we want to tolerate having slot machines in Vancouver or we can just watch tax money/good paying union jobs/entertainment dollars/construction jobs etc leave our community, and if you are an immigrant woman,an opportunity to get one of those 800 UNION jobs that have benifits is no small matter.And the fact is most people in Vancouver thought thats what they were voting for when they elected Larry and Cope. We had a Cope majority that had the power to insure maximum benifits when slots came before council(by the way I live in that neighborhood)Imagine what the results would have been if that decision would have made if the NPA was in power, slot machines with no social benifits.Larry and Cope lite got it,Cope classic didnt.