Now the only question will be can each NDP member get thier 'vote' recounted if they change their mind 24 hours after a particular issued has been voted on an a decision made.

Given the actions of their wet noodle leader i think that whatever any NDP convention votes or decides to do the 'reporting' of the decision should wait at least 36 hours to allow them to exercise their 'perrogative' of second thought.

I suspect that the decision to 'drop' official labour backing of the NDP will just allow that same backing to "drop" out of sight into the background - something more insidious.

An opinion poll of who? Is the majority ever really a majority anymore? Interestingly enough the municiple election in Saanish had an extremely low voter turnout after the wage debaucle at the legislature. At what point does the government lose the "majority" right to govern.

Anyway, I don't view these changes within the NDP as the end of the matter. The NDP are still wanting their cake and eat it too; they want organized labour's cash but not any influence that might come tied to that. And If my read of these changes is correct, or proven correct over time, that is more or less the NDP committed trade union leadership is about to deliver them. They are agreed to spread their legs and be eunuchized.

It will not fly much longer however, or I hope not, once the implications are understood, within the rank and file of House of Labour itself.

It is long past time, if the decline of the trade union movement is to be stemmed, that it walked away from the NDP entirely. NDP influence within labour, through its control of leadership there, has damaged the independant role and capacity of labour, and made it a creature of the same Blairite/ class collaborationist politics and practice. To the point that the trade union movement's credibility as a serious,working class organizing and fighting force has become overly tied to the ends and aims of the NDPs "pragmatic", read opportunist prismed electoral interests. Labour has become little more than its boy/girl toy.

Which, unless the trade union movement is prepared to voluntarily lead itself into further demise and extinction, it must sooner rather than later end.

The NDP has its own interest to attend to on the road to the dissolution of this relationship-, manifest as folding green. The degree to which the trade union movement has not been emasculated, to the point of the loss of its balls/maracas altogether, it also has an interest, not yet faced up to, in the dissolution of this self-destructive relationship with the Blairites.

Time for both parties to move on and seek out other love interests. And labour to put its folding green to better, class organizing and mobilizing use-, rather that squandering it on this Jezebel. :-)

Opening paragraph, should read, "That is more or less what what the NDP committed trade union leadership is about to deliver to them."

In response to chippy's question, "an opinion poll of who?" In the context of this article, members of the political party entitled to vote.

The first real day of winter. I just looked outside the window, and its a fluffy white winter wonderland out there.

It's been sneaking down the mountains and hillsides for a few weeks now, and has finally swallowed us up.

Love it.

I am a member of HEU and a member of the NDP (or was until the MLA wage hike fiasco) ... but why in the world should any rights of HEU in the NDP be tied to my membership in both the HEU and NDP ... simply idiotic. I look at it from another perspective. The role of my union is to represent me in dealings with my employer - that's what I pay them for (union dues). In that sense unions should be apolitical. Unions can't vote in elections, why should they be able to belong to a political party?

Hi Y'all,

I have now left the house of labour and the NDP Party after just joining a party for the first time last year. Before joining any party, I spent 25 years as an activist and refused to join any offical party. Last year I did join one in order to support a worthy NDP candidate in my riding. I have no regrets and am glad he's there. Having survived the teachers' strike and November 17th (the day of pay-raises and 713 uninvestigated child deaths) however, I am going back to my activist ways and resorting to my Irish father's phrase: "A plague on both their houses. I resigned my membership and joined a grassroots local group of seniors instead. I'm not a senior. I just help them record and publish their rants. When I get another minute, I'll go up to the hospital and speak with the mentally ill and the dying so they can get their voice out there too.

There is much to be done, but it can not and will not be done within the house of labour nor the house(s) of the parties that play politics at the expense of ordinary people.

I have found my way and the name of the way is "activism". It took five weeks to crawl out of the hole of cynicism, but I did. And now the bastards will wish I'd slept.

Glad to hear you're covered in snow, Coyote. We are too. Sort of like a comfort blanket, isn't it? While the world sleeps under it, I'm glad you and others are awake.

doesn't really matter. the people of this fine province will not hand power back to the unions in 2009 anyway. too close to the olympics. in fact if gordo leaves it may be a very long time indeed before brother jim rules again.

"the people of this fine province will not hand power back to the unions in 2009 anyway. to close to the olympics."

Well, they say one's Gods are that which one values above all else. So now you believe, that what we in this fair land value above all else is a one-week hype that will sweep all other considerations, human or otherwise, aside, and simply serve to put more money into very few pockets, and a long nose to the taxpayers. For that, we should want to give these 'our-turn-now' people one more 'turn' to run our province as a business and inflict a business model on everything from care of ill people to care of our smallest ones. Let us see if this is the case! We might just smarten up, you know, and see that which side our bread is buttered on is only worth something to those who have bread in the first place...

I'm not trying to defend the stupidity of the NDP's salary vote, neither am I a fan of Carole James, but we all make stupid decisions and what is the best thing to do when we realize what we have done? Carry on in the wrong direction, or admit that we made a mistake and take the heat?

It is almost suicidal for a politician to admit to mistakes, which is a mistake in itself, so most of them go on and on making more.

Carole James stood up with egg on her face and our own MLA Bob Simpson, who at first wrote a letter defending the vote, went on record in the sam papers thge letter appeared in, that it was a stupid decision. He had my vote before and will have it again, after 9 years of some seatwarming BCLib bum who was elected twice and then went to sleep, never to be heard of again.
It took courage to admit fault and I appreciate it.

As for leader of the NDP, I'd vote for Jinny Sims on any day, but at this time I sooner have one who admits to and takes the consequences for stupid actions. This is how I've lived my life and expect others to act.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

"I have found my way and the name of the way is "activism". It took five weeks to crawl out of the hole of cynicism, but I did. And now the bastards will wish I'd slept." wrote cuinn.

Good on you, cuinn.

I'm not quite ready to give up entirely on the House of Labour yet, but I do understand where you are coming from. I suspect I'm sneaking up to a similar kind of decision for myself. The essential problem and decision that has to be made by "activists" is, to what degree has it, Labour, been hopelessly co-opted/assimilated into "the system"? And on that decision each of us has to make, rests the course of action one has to lay out for themselves, I think. And yours is the next logical way to go, I think.

It's really an increasingly shitt time, with a lot of tough decisions for community conscious and class aware people to make, and I cannot really find fault with yours at all.

Stay strong brother/sister. (I don't want to make any wrong assumptions here. :-)

With a tip of my hat to Dorothy and Fait as well.

All that snow out there makes me want to go out and play. Make fallen snow angels. :-)

it still means that the NDP will be the sock puppet for organized labour and therefore doomed to political obscurity.

Unions have wake up, realize it is not 1932, that the old industrial relations model is dead and gone. Time to smarten up.

The bleating from the seld-diagnosed progressives is such wonderful music for the rest of us who actually have progressed, moved on, created wealth and have found happiness without some union heavy with his or her hand in my pocket.

The

Come to think of it, Coyote, it would be damn difficult to make flying snow angels (-:) ????

We had a couple of inches last night and things look much brighter. Now I have to go feed my cows.

Ed....

You know, I really have to wonder so many people are all twisted up over unions backing the NDP. Why is it that little mention is ever made about corporate power backing all the conservative and so-called liberal parties? Fred & Ethel are worried about "some union heavy with his or her hand in my pocket" and yet say absolutely nothing about what corporate "unions" are doing to them daily.

At the moment, I am no fan of either the NDP or the Liberals in this province. On each side there is a fair amount of corruption (think back to the pay raise for MLA's last week). But having corporations or unions back political parties is does nothing for the public good. There should be no contributions by vested interests of any sort to political parties. Such contributions mean that favours are owed later on.

And I have to disagree with Fred & Ethel. Unions are very relevant in this day and age for the average working guy. What other means is there to counter corporate exploitation of people?

The saddest part of this growing division between labour and its natural political partner is the willingness of some to buy into the neo-con strategy.

Some of us actually think we are leading the cart here, but if we are to drop the self indulged narrow-focus long enough to take a breath between diatribes we might notice we are being egged on by the likes of the Elliots and clowns like Fred and Ethel.

Should a major split yet come out of all this angst, I would predict it will take decades before a left of centre government again takes the reins in BC.

I certainly do hope that labour leaders read the tea leaves and get busy encouraging union members to sign onto the NDP.

However, when I read the likes of Coyote, who seems determined to show he is more determined than Elliot to break the partnership, I do wonder how many will simply walk away.

Organized labour will never achieve anything if it insists on staying outside where it can claim some warped sense of purity and self-determination as it wonders the wilderness.

There is no doubt a new arrangement must be worked out, but tossing a century's political progress out the window in some holier-than-thou exercise is pathetic, counterproductive and, frankly, mind boggling.

Labour's clout isn't being muted by its ties to the NDP. Labour's clout has been muted by its own myopic shortcomings such as chasing after the means for its members to wallow in consumerism rather than build a better future.

Even when it has labour friendly government some unions crank up the rhetoric in hopes of blackmailing government into concessions.

The chaotic showdown between CUPE and the last NDP government is a classic example of a game of brinkmanship that didn't work.

When people play those games they ought to have enough sense to leave a door or window ajar should their grand schemes fail so they can at least exit without the grand showdown.

Of course, all of this is taking place in an era of dramatic change in the workplace, in the home, the environment and in social understanding, to name a few.

And like the 5 o'clock news, we are inisting that an immediate scapegoat or cause be identified so that we can focus our rage and build up a bit more cynicism to await the next problem.

On the other side of the ledger, I see NDPers who are determined to get rid of labour's powers because they have no ties to and absolutely no understanding of the needs of the working class.

Some of this I would suggest arises out of the academics and professionals who realize the Gordon Campbell approach is ruinous yet are not willing to even break bread with people who don't have a degree.

In the long run this issue ought to be decided by individual unionized workers, but the advice they get here, there and everywhere these days is enough to keep many of them wondering why they should bother.

And, as it should be, will be. I agree with at least this much.

We are in a time of reassessment. Necessary in my view.

I'm surprised you even read Fred and Ethel, Allan. They are amongst a number I don't even bother with 99% of the time.

And I accept responsibility for my own ideas. Whether they happen to coincide with some Wingnut or not, in some particular instance, is ground we've been over before.

If union members take out party memberships is it not conceivable they would have as much voting power as ever?

"Even when it has labour friendly government some unions crank up the rhetoric in hopes of blackmailing government into concessions."

Yep, and its rare you see Phil Hochstein or Jerry Lampert attack their political bedmates.

I have believed for many years that the NDP could become STRONGER by modernizing its political structure and stop being perceived as 'the union party'. Plus it is bogus to imply that all 'union workers' always vote NDP -they are not sheep. I know many workers, like those in the contruction trades, whose vote varies with the economic issues of the day.

If BC's largest corporations got preferential 'voting rights' in other parties, everyone would be screaming about 'unfair influence', a lack of democracy, etc. But the same people approve of the NDP giving preferential voting power to unions, which they use to promote their own self-interests (duh). I can see no justification why unions deserve more representation than all other NDP supporters.

I've met many people who rarely or never vote NDP specifically because they feel that unions control the party agenda. It doesn't matter if this is actually true - it is a common perception among those who currently do not vote NDP. This is exactly the people the party needs to sway. Preaching to the converted will not gain you any new seats.

If the unions want to sulk about no longer having special priveleges, threatening to take their marbles and go home, then so be it. If unions really want 'their own party', then they should form a 'labour party' and see how they do. But it is more likely that unions will continue to promote whichever political party is in their interests, and workers (voters) will continue to vote their own personal political beliefs regardless of what their union says.

The only significant difference would be that the NDP might be able to attract a new group of voters, making it stronger in government and better able to promote its vision. How is this 'bad' for workers?

The bottom line is that, when all the rhetoric and distraction is stripped away, I see little wrong with the NDP proposals?

So the NDP voted to change its relationship with labour. I think its a good idea.
Unions and the NDP do not always have the same agenda or priorities.
Not all union members embrace the socially-liberal agenda of the NDP, just like many small and medium business owners do not always have the same socially-conservative views as the BC Liberals - nor are they greedy and selfish and uncaring about societies most vulnerable.
The change by the NDP shows that it has grown up. The Liberals have some catching up to do. One way to show this would be to pass the NDP sponsored election finance amendment laws that would ban union and corporate donations to parties.
The Manitoba NDP did this - they reformed its relationship with labour, then as government, outlawed union and corporate donations...results? Manitoba Premier Gary Doer's NDP is consistently higher in the polls than the opposition PC's and would crush them all over again in an election.
A brave step for the BC NDP, but a wise one.
Bravo!!

I am an HEU worker who is a paid-it-myself member of the NDP.
I support NDP reform and hope for HEU reform.
I see the work of booth organizations to be different and resist being told who to vote for by leaders of the HEU who never canvass my opinion about this or any other matter.

From Fred & Ethel: "it still means that the NDP will be the sock puppet for organized labour and therefore doomed to political obscurity."

Are you insane? Is coming within a few thousand votes of forming government "political obscurity"? What an unbelievable statement that is so partisan that one cannot take any of their comments seriously anymore.

As to labour taking a step backwards with their influence within the NDP - I think it's a good thing. The NDP needs to be a grassroots organization that encompasses all types of different people. People that love BC and want to it prosper. People that want to improve things for all citizens of the province. Leave the people with offshore accounts to the BC Liberals. In the end, it's one vote one person.

There are two HEU members writing above whom, I think, demonstrate that they get it, on this matter of the trade unions' relationship with the NDP. (One of them being even a current member of the NDP.) I hope labour leadership, many of whom will certainly read this site, are paying attention to them.

Labour/Unions have their own independant role to play in terms of their own immediate interests AND, in terms of fighting for the kinds of social changes, especially within the economy, but also as an independant, formally "non-partisan" political force within the established political arena, for worker AND the broader working class community interests. It is a serious mistake and misread of social reality, already gone on too long I think, to misconstrue that the best way of doing this is from the position of an "official" union presence within some existing party structure. It's real effect over time has been to co-opt, even assimilate Labour within the labour management function the state helps perform for ruling class interests within the economy, and to subvert Labour's primary function of organizing and mobilizing the great mass of the working class in defense of its own interests and that of its broader, or extended "familial community". (It even needs some extended discussion on whether Labour should continue in these State sponsored "labour management" functions, which tend to force labour to police its own for the State and Corporate systems.)

Which is the core mandate Labour needs to rediscover and get back to, and get back to doing more effectively than it has for a very long time. It needs to rebuild its own independant power within society and the economy. It needs to become a force feared by the ruling class and its management elites again-, and feared by its State.

Short of that, like the old British Empire upon which the sun was never going to set, it is going to set in fact-, and likely sooner rather than later. It would eventually have to be replaced by something similar to it again, of course, but hopefully, certainly hoped by me, it won't go that far. Which it will only for stupidity, vanity and pig-headedness, and a kind of suicidal death wish rather than admit the current course is not the correct one, and to insist upon it out of some kind of false sentimentality, such as Allan expresses above, or misplaced notion of allegiance to a political party that fails itself to return the favour.

'Are you insane? Is coming within a few thousand votes of forming government "political obscurity"? ' Hey Chris: Since when is 46 - 33 translate to a few thousand votes? You're dreaming pal, and that's as close as they'll ever get. Ed Deak was calling for Jinny Sims as the new Negative Depressing Pessimistic leader. Must be a friend of gordo's.

hey elliot are you ronnies alter ego? You seem to be about as smart and fanatical as he is, actually Chris is closer to the truth then you will ever be with your bias rhetoric. Oh ya in case you haven't noticed the libs lost 31 seats, thats a lot of seats no matter how you spin it!

I believe it came down to about 5500 votes and that was after they spent millions of tax payers dollars on the adds, the media came throught for them with their half truths and lies even donating to the lieberal coffers, so much for a unbiased press.

The biz unions also came through in a big way with their adds and millions and still they lost all those seats, you gotta wonder eh maybe people aren't quite as stupid as you neocons think they are.

You should be running scared if your greed is the only motive you have in life, real estate is slowing down and this is a real estate economy, they say it will go on for ever this time, but you know what, they said that the last two times!

Elliot,

who allowed you access to their computer? The Gordon Campbell BC Liberals are the most depressing excuse for leadership that this province has ever produced, even worse than Bill Bennett. They hounded the NDP to get rid of the pension plan and then the BC Liberals try to bring it back. Jinny Sims will not be the leader of the NDP just because Ed Deak called for it.

It's an odd hour and maybe I,m half asleep but the way I see it you've got labours "upper echelon" and the "rank and file", one group thinks guys like Jim Sinclair are good for labour in B.C. but with the latter he's about as popular as Bin Laden in NYC, I'm a union worker who votes NDP but isn't a member and I think it's safe to say that many are starved for a party that makes them feel represented,is the fact that there is no meaningfull option strictly a media thing? If the B.C. Labour party suddenly had some dollars coming in from the unions would there be an opportunity for some representation? I believe in the spirit of working people, unfortunatly people like Jim Sinclair don't represent that spirit very well, and the fact that he's cozy with Carol James will prove to be a hinderance not a help down the road.

Has anybody attended any portion of the NDP Convention? ... got any views to share?

Elliot: "Hey Chris: Since when is 46 - 33 translate to a few thousand votes?"

When only a few thousand votes from the BC Liberals to the NDP would have given the NDP a majority of seats. Check out the election results yourself. There were a number of ridings that were decided on by just a few hundred votes. That you couldn't figure that out is kind of embarrassing.

Elliot, I don't know what your life experience is, but I've lived and worked in 4 countries under every known 20th century ideology and have been a private enterpriser, non union business owner in BC for 48 years.

Apart from communism and nazism I can't think of a more Negative Pessimistic ideology and economic theory than the neoliberal, neoclassical, globally competitive market capitalist system, destroyng the environment and destituting and killing more people on the long term daily basis than both world wars and the death camps of Stalin, Hitler and Mao put together.

Neither do I know how old you are, but you should have seen Canada in the '50s and '60s buzzing with hope, life and excitement, developing for a bright future, with living standards increasing every year.

Look at Canada now, buried under the neoliberal crap. Frightened, depressed, drug addicted youth, without any hope, lost under the weight of corporate and political propaganda that "everything is OK, the economy is booming!" Even the clothing young people wear expresses hopelessness, self depriciation and depression.

The economy is booming allright for multinationals stealing our eyes out and corporate pimps, like our dear Liberal and Conservative leaders, conspiring how to sell the country to cheesy carpetbaggers, with the noose of fraudulent free trade deals tightening around our necks.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Socialists are the least introspective people I have ever known. The simple fact is that the political and demographic map of Canada and this province has completely changed in the last twenty years. This has caused the labour movement to continue to fade into the situation it is in now, where the so called "labour movement" is nothing but a front for government workers.

Instead of looking at what they are doing in their demise, unions continue to blame everybody but themselves. They blame mostly faceless targets, "foreign competition" and "big corporations." The fact remains that for most workers, unions do not offer anything to them and remove alot of the flexibility they need in today's rapidly changing work place.

Carole James has realised this and is trying to reform her party so that it can win elections instead of being the lap dog of public sector unions. For that I congratulate her.

Ed Deak wrote:

This is what is crazy about our society. Whenever I am at a social gathering and the discussion turns to politics, it always comes back to "the economy."

The line I usually hear is, "the NDP has destroyed the economy, under the BC Liberals the economy is booming".

I then ask that person to give me a basic definition of what "economy" means.

They almost always cannot define this very basic and general term.

Well, I see a lot more jobs posted now than I did ten years ago. The unemployment rate is the lowest since statsCan started recording them. The wages I pay in my company are 30% more than they were in 2001 and that is individual, not absolute. My payroll has more than doubled. My tax remittances (GST, PST and income tax, as well as EI and CP gladly made, by the way) have more than doubled. Every store in Vancouver has a help wanted sign in the window.

A union would ruin my company's flexibility and my workers know it. In seventeen years I have never laid a single person off. Every employee is a share holder in the company and equally shares profit, right down to our office cleaners.

Socialists lack that kind of flexibility so they are mired in dead end jobs. They cannot think creatively or adapt to changing condtions. That is why they are not sharing in the boom we have having now.

offers Kevin Dalman.

News flash for Kevin. BC's corporations don't need preferential voting rights to get all the concessions they want out of other political parties.

They don't bother to vote because the volumes of money they plough into those parties ensure they own politicians like Gordon Campbell.

CN Rail was a big contributor to the BC Liberals. It now owns BC Rail

The anti-union independant contractors association of BC gave big contributions to the BC Liberals. It now has a Labour Code that favours non-union contractors.

Real estate developers with land along the Sea-to-Sky highway gave tons of cash to the BC Liberals. They are now reaping millions from those properties that just happen to be on the road to the 2010 Olympics which is being upgraded at increasingly big "public" expense.

Do you need more examples Kevin or do you see the pattern yet?

Coyote your push for an independant union movement simply sounds like regurgitated Gomperism, (favour your friends and punish your enemies), that hasn't worked in the States and will never work in Canada.

In fact, I would suggest that the American model is far more business unionism than anything you see in Canada.

The reason for that is American unions had to adopt some of the tactics of the business community such as being willing to bed down with who ever is most convenient or useful at a given time because it doesn't really have a permanent bed.

As for the NDP attracting others if labour is gone, as noted by someone above, that may be.

But I guess I would have to rethink my own involvement if suddenly a flood of anti-union types started directing party activities.

There are already several parties that don't want to represent the working class so why would anyone vote for one called the NDP?

Working Man wrote,

How many people are really "sharing" in the boom?

Just as many people who "suffered" under the NDP.

So your company survived under the "dark decade".

Now, that being said, I am not really an NDP supporter. However, if you really look at how our economy functions under any government, it is quite depressing.

We are lucky to have the natural resources to keep us afloat.

Being a British Columbian is like being a spoiled college kid who gets an allowance from home. The college kid get to pretend they are a struggling student. The British Columbian gets to pretend they have a dynamic high tech economy.

But in the back of their heads, everyone knows where the money really comes from.

Governments in BC rely on natural resources way to much. "Big Businness" and "Big Labour" have both fattened up on them.

Follow the zig-zagging career of Jack Munro for proof.

the booming economy they are talking about is pretty thin anyway, it comes down to real estate, exporting raw logs and the pumped up logging of beetle kill, all of these are short term and long term benefits are questionable to say the least!

With real estate we are pricing ourselves out of the market, it will slow down and when it does so will construction, the raw logs going offshore and south are at the expense of jobs here locally and the money earned in value added is spent locally, good for local workers and business but not good for the ceo's and their bottom line!

The pine beetle devistation is going to affect not only the economy when they turn the boreal forest into a clearcut but the water table will drop, salmon will be affected, farmers towns, this is a bloody disaster and the right wingers can't wait to get those trees and move on, the coastal lobby group wants to send our trees to Asia for processing to save labour costs and the right wingnuts will be all for it!

It may also affect the weather, allowing the area to warm up even faster, go into some of those big clearcuts south of houston and see how windy it is! Coastal weather can blow right up those valleys and warm everything up!

The biggest difference I see between the left and right is really simple, the left looks for sustanability and reduced environmental impact thinking about our children and future generations trying to keep as much of the profit in local pockets while the right thinks about raping and running, to hell with the next generation get what we can now and worry about it later.

I am the ceo and I want to get more then all the workers combined because I am a sick egomaniac and I deserve it. How many examples would you like, the latest would be sir whats his face.

Going from memory, Working Man, StatsCan also said this spring that wages in B.C. have gone down and just last week B.C. has the highest level of children living under the poverty line. Tell me again how great things are, 'cause I'm just not buying it yet.

Blonde, you do not know what poverty is and I have some reservations on how the poverty industry measures it to begin with. My wife is from a third world country. THAT is poverty. It stuns me to see the excuses that the left come up with for their lack of personal accountability and success. You should hear my wife's take on the poverty industry. SHE KNOWS what poverty is.

People make their own beds in life. One is a helluva lot better working for even minimum wage than laguishing in the welfare industrty. Working for $8.00 an hour on would make $16,440 a year. His her child tax benefit with one child would be $400 a month and GST rebate $160 a quarter. That is $21,880 a year. Children and familes will also kick in half for child care and child tax benefit will also kick some it.

Luxury living? No, it isn't but any healthy person willing to take charge of their own life can do it and has nowhere to go but up. Waiting for handouts from the "poverty" industy is not better.

But it is not for socialists to take charge of their own lives, is it? Better to wallow, grovel and blame.

Moat, you are correct. We depend natural rescource exploitation for about one third of our porvincial revenue. No matter what the socialists want to say the vast majority of people in Canada live very comfortable, healthy lives. We could easily reduce our dependence on natural rescources by taxing automobiles based on their wastefulness (by either taxing displacement or CO2 output)but Ford and GM, both of which are in the process of going belly up, swing a lot of lead in Ottawa and Washington.

Ironically, the two best selling automobiles in Canada, the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla, are both built in Canadian plants by Canadian workers. These two plants are amongst the most productive in the world. Both cars are Ultra Low Emission Vehicles, something GM said was impossible five years ago.

Neither, despite the left's attempts (even when Bob Rae made certification extremely easy and even outlawed management talking about it)neither plant has ever had a union. They are also paid better than GM and Ford, their pay being tied to productivity.. They have never had a lay-off.

Pity these poor exploited masses in Cambridge and Ingersoll!

There are extremely happy people under every, even the most murderous regimes. I spent 3 years in postwar Austria, and all I could hear was how happy they were before the war with Hitler. The same is happening now in the former Iron Curtain countries, where the standard of living still hasn't reached the communist era levels and all they can see are carpetbagger corporations stripping them bare.

By the way, I have a 45 year record of fighting communism, with a price on my head, so I don't need any lectures by amateurs telling me how bad it was. My contacts are still there and I know exactly what's going on, outside the official versions.

Under every regime about 10 to 15% are very happy, 10 to 15 % very unhappy and the rest in the middle just dangle along.

BC is selling off resources, which is not an income, but the squandering of capital. If I could have accounted my sales from stock as profit, without deducting the replacement values, my yearly reports would have been fantastic. Unfortunately, if we use proper business accounting, BC and Canada are going in the hole and not because of socialists, but because overcapitalized squandering of resources to carpetbaggers, without benefits to citizens.

The foodbank lines are growing all over Canada, reporting a 65,000 growth last year to a total of 850,000.

Yes, some, so called industries are doing very well. In this area the mining companies are racking up record profits and pay high wages from the sale of capital. Bloody stupid, but economists and politicans love it and call it "growth of the GDP"

Also, the construction industry is booming because of freshly created loans by the banks, accounting the buildings as their assets and creating more imaginary monies so that foreign companies can come in and buy the country with our own money.

When the first FTA devastated Canada by killing scores of industries and throwing people on the streets, our then PC MP wrote in the papers that "... we may have lost 100,000 manufacturing jobs, but created 200,000 service jobs" The same accouning used now by Campbell and Martin and would be, God forbid, by Harper.

The problem is that service jobs are not assets, but liabilities, because their funding must come out of the labour of resource conversion, not the creation of imaginary money. It is like firing the production workers in a factory, but increasing the sweepers and the office staff. How long can such idiocy go on?

When we arrived in Vancouver in May 1955, and I went looking for a job, without any skills at the time, I got 2 on the first day. Vancouver was full of small industries, employing skilled people. Later I went into apprenticeship and then started my own business.

Never did a single government job, but was almost wiped out in 1975-76, when Bill Bennett was first elected into government and his immediate actions, by Pat McGeer doubling ICBC rates, caused a mini depression across BC. All my fellow "competition" in the custon furniture business were wiped out, I survived, but never recovered, with $65,000 in debt. It is like half million today. I paid it off to the penny, and to the best of my knowledge my old business is still around, but personally I've had it and got the hell out.

It is all very nice to talk about "free" this and that, but how would anybody like to drive a car on a road without laws, rules and regulations, where bigger trucks and armoured cars are not only permitted, but encouraged to push others off the road and then praised for practicing the "competitive equilibrium of the global marketplace"?

Give me firm laws and protection to be able to work in safety and without having to look over my shoulder every minute, to see who's coming after me with a weapon.

Even when it is called "investment capital" freshly created by a bank, destituting and killing people by the millions every year around the world.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

The left has become a little like The Three Faces of Eve, that old movie about multiple personalities...not quite sure what face is going to show up in the mirror on what day.

An example: In the small pulp and paper town I grew up in, our Credit Union ( the first CU in BC, in fact) was established as a truly workers' credit union. This was where workers cashed their cheques and made their savings. My Dad worked in the mill and was on the Credit Union board for many years...and even then as a kid I remember the genuine concern he brought home with him in attempting to help out working class families...and in a much more communal sense...to make loans possible where the banks would not.

I just received a brochure from the same credit union the other day...it was all about creating financial portfolios, investment packages, and on and on...it is far, far away from its working class roots. In fact, the Credit Union I remember wore its working class badge proudly...and workers themselves saw this little building perched on the hill besides the mill as real accomplishment in controlling the fruits of their labour.

This present credit union, seems to be trying very hard to escape those roots...in fact to hide them....like a cocky, sophisticated kid returning home from the city, sure that he has outgrown his more down home parents...and a little ashamed of them now.

We see this same quality in the NDP's attempt to be more of an uptown girl herself... more civil, more business-like in approach: "express your outrage if you must but express it in civil, polite tones that do not ruffle this new, more commercial image we have affected of late."

All those years of prosperity that my Dad and others fought for and ultimately made possible...long strikes that went on for months and months have ironically enacted a toll on the left. No one wants to be working class anymore... at least not in appearance.

So we see unions and the NDP with one toe in and one toe out of their working class boots...and though they may talk left... they now manoeuvre with a noticeably dysfunctional walk.

Excellent comments, lynne. I am all for credit unions and have used them for years for most of my banking BUT and it is a BIG BUT....

Getting project financing out of them in the past was almost impossible. They simply did not have the leverage ten years ago that they do now. Coastcapital is now indeed a big operation and I am pleased that I can get project financing from them now. Five years ago I had to deal with the evil banks.

And fiat lux, get a hold on reality. When I look around pretty much anywhere in Canada I see the great majority of people being well fed, clothed, groomed and have nice rides. Go spend a week in Manila or Mumbai to get a hold of yourself.

This pompous drivel from Working Man is getting a bit much.

Please guy tell us the name of your successful business so the world will know. Tell us what you pay your TQ carrying carpenters, how much pension and holiday pay.

And about those 20 or so apprentices you claimed a while ago to employ year round. What specific trades are they in?

Oh and you claim of never laying off staff. I'm afraid I'm from Missouri on that line as it (in my estimation) would be unique in BC's construction industry even for a capitalist as generous as you claim to be.

And yes, this province is now the worst in Canada for child poverty as noted by another here. Please explain why, when in 2001 it was doing much better.

It's ok guy, we all know what happened in 2001.

Personally, where your wife is from really means little here. All kinds of fascist rich cats seem to find ways to get out of many third world countries when the timing is right.

Now, perhaps she's an economist, with a good education rather that the typical survivor of third world realties.

Of course, that you are suspicious of the "poverty industry" can't go unnoticed.

Are you referring to the massive growth in food banks, that are barely meeting the needs of hundreds of thousands of poor people including all those children mentioned above?

Do you think they are lying ?

Perhaps what you mean by the poverty industry are the leaches who feed off the poor; the cheque-cashing profiteers, the bingo halls and gaming centres where the desperation for an extra dollar or two is masked by the grotesque neon and noise.

Or were you talking of the $6 an hour jobs that fat cat capitalists who have fast food franchises offer to new hires whether they be 17 or 67?

Working Man the poverty industry is the only real growth industry in BC, but I don't expect you to understand that any more than I expect you to understand that a lot of the people who are poor and needy are not the Socialists you, in your rose coloured glasses have deemed them to be.

But that attitude toward the poor says far more than you likely meant to about your respect for your fellow human being.

allan, your straw man attack does not reflect on you very well. Stick to addressing facts.

Oh, and allan, the loaded term rhetoric really gave me a chuckle. Don't socialists have any original ideas about anything?

My friend, the people of Manila and Mumbai are starving because their lives are destroyed by the free movement of imaginary capital, called, the "wealth creating global free market system".

The biggest and best racket in history, when people who own the resources are not permitted to develop and use them ,but have to invite foreign carpetbaggers, who are the only ones permitted by the present system to create imaginary capital to steal the resources of others.

This also goes for Canada, being stripped bare and sold off to these criminals, while Trade Minister Emerson begs for more. Canada, or the Philippines, never needed a penny of foreign capital, because it is nothing more than the inflation of the money supply from abroad, created against resources, we and the Philippines, or Indonesia own. Even the NDP hasn't been able to come to grips with this simple, criminal con job.

In other words, foreign investment and for that matter most of the present overcapitalized investments, are fraudulent. The worst cases are the oil producing countries, where the multinationals and the quisling governments are stealing the food out of the mouths of the locals.

Your ignorance of the facts is on the level of Ron Erwin's, so this is the end of the line for me until I can see that you may have learned something of the true facts of economics. A very difficult thing to do for people brainwashed with ideological propaganda.
I have seen all versions of it, fascists, nazis, communists and capitalists, all the same garbage.

Ed Deak,

My friend, the people of Manila and Mumbai are starving because their lives are destroyed by the free movement of imaginary capital, called, the "wealth creating global free market system".

Save the rhetoric for your leftie buddies. You know nothing about the third world since you have never been there. Anybody can have a happy and productive life in Canada if they learn to take responsibility for their own actions something the left cannot do,

Working Man: You want a socialist to feel ashamed of being a socialist. You're willing to indulge in a little bullying to make sure they feel bad about it. Like hell. I'm a socialist. Always have been. Always will be. Simply put, I believe in striving for the greatest good for the greatest number. What could possibly scare you, about that?

Albert Einstein was a socialist. Bertrand Russell and George Bernard Shaw were socialists. J.S. Woodsworth and David Lewis were socialists. All of them were men of brilliant intellect and social conscience.

Since I was a child -- when my father was campaign manager for Dr Lyle Telford (Vancouver's first socialist mayor) -- I've seen first-hand what your hateful skills can do to people. For God's sake, think what you're saying.

That leverage you are talking about, Working Man, has been achieved at the expense of the principles credit unions were founded on. In the US, credit unions, through a process of mergers and acquisitions are morphing into ever larger and more aggressive financial institutions catering more and more to the wealthy ... while enjoying the tax preferred status of the traditional credit union.

Business always finds a way somehow to get hold of those tax subsidies, doesn't it, while decrying them for others? Par for the course, most of the tax subsidies go the largest, most aggressive credit unions, not the smaller ones embracing traditional credit union values.

In fact those massive credit unions have become indistinguishable from those evil banks you allude to.

Where once credit unions were about a closely-knit group of people pooling their resources and providing small loans, their super-sized expansion for the benefit of business and the wealthy ( and coming soon to a neighbourhood near you)... is betraying the fidelity it once had to people with limited resources.

The whole sense of community... the common bond, and the once noble idea of loans actually based on character alone, are all being lost in the pursuit of that leverage you so love.

Working Man wrote:

Fair enough, I left the water running from the tap today just to get it cold enough to fill my Britta filter and then put it in the fridge.

Even the most disadvantaged in our society can afford to be that wasteful. In other parts of the world, even "wealthy" people could not do this.

But this wealth does not tranlate into social health.

We are being wasteful because we can. How do we conserve wealth for future generations?

This goes beyond "left" or "right" thinking. When you read writers like Pete McMartin in the Vancouver Sun, you realize how short-sighted that we have become. He has written about wilderness places such as the Spatsizi and believes that they are not useful unless put into some sort of economic production. Blame unions and big bussiness for this. Think of how many full size trucks up north are paid for by union members logging in ecologically sensitive areas.

But this is the line of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

"If it does not benefeit me, then I don't want to pay for it."

hey working man, I to am a working person having been a ticketed tradesman since June 1975, I have seen a lot of ups and downs, like when bennet helped start kerkoff the non union construction company 51% in his wifes name and got all the big government contracts paying half the union rate and always within a couple percentage points of the lowest union bid, no back door deals there eh. Oh yes and a little help from alberta labour.

My point is I know the construction industry and you would have to be one of the few if not only contractors who has never laid off, personally I think you are full of shit. You remind me of that albertan who started a delivery business in kelowna, always complaining on the tyee about the evil socialist, if alberta was so great why did he leave, because like the rest of them he was starving and came to B.C. when the NDP were in power because he could get a job?

Btw for your information I am an old socred, started voting ndp as the lesser of two evils after that spoiled brat from kelowna tried to undo everything his father had done for this Province.

A true right wingnut like yourself would like billy bennet eh! To bad he didn't go to jail for insider trading saved by friends in high places. Like I said earlier if you are greedy self serving and care not for others you are usually a right wingnut!

Most of my friends who vote ndp are very hard working folks with families and the usual toys and unlike the morons on the right have compassion for the less fortunate in society, would rather have them cared for then sticking a knife in their back to get what they want.

Don't leave a coat in your car in downtown victoria or your car will get broken into.

ursus, ever heard of work sharing? That is what we did in the dark 90's.

Think outside the box, man!

And why doesn't the left win elections? Maybe it has something not being able to think outside the box. So much anger and no success. Take some responsibility for a change.

Working Man: "Think outside the box, man!"

Is letting 12 year-olds work without parental consent thinking outside the box?

Is saving money by not properly investigating children's deaths thinking outside the box?

Is allowing unlimitless numbers of children with special needs into regular classrooms without any support for the teacher thinking outside the box?

Is cutting off welfare to single moms as soon as their child hits the age of three thinking outside the box?

Is privatizing food services at hospitals to companies that produce stuff that I wouldn't feed to my dog thinking outside the box?

Is privatizing BC Rail to a company that will put the environment and lives at risk to increase profits thinking outside the box?

Is allowing our utilities to be sold off to American interests so that BC has little control over distribution thinking outside the box?

Is giving control over our private health information to an American company that has actually made service worse and compromised our confidential records thinking outside the box?

I could go on, but if that is "thinking outside the box," I think I will stay firmly planted within my cardboard walls thank you very much.

You forgot thinning milk in hospitals, or is that called "innovative"

the right won the last election with what 5500 votes after spending millions of our dollars on adds leading up to the election this does not include all the millions spent by their corporate and special interest masters! They lost a lot of seats pal. What ever happened to the raid on the ledge will we ever know what really went on, if this was the ndp it would still be on the news every day.

I work when I want to, I can work all over the world with my skills, can you? If the 90's were so dark why did so many albertans come here for work, lets not forget the asian flu or the 172 million the federal liberals gave to the suharta government to build a huge pulp mill to compete against our mills right after the asian economy went in the tank!

My anger is directed towards right wing zealots like bennet and I gave you my opinion of him in my last post, my opinion of the drunk is even lower.

Do you care about the quality of life our children and grandchildren will have or do you only care about what you can suck out of this planet with no thought for future generations. Will you be keeping all your employees busy when the real estate market tanks.

These people running this province are into developing real estate, the question you should be asking yourself is, do they need an adjustment in market prices in order to maximise profits leading up to 2010.

Personal debt is at a record high and real estate prices are peaking, no one is getting a raise, it is low interest rates making these homes affordable for some, house of cards in my opinion! Once it starts it will be no different then the other times I have watched this happen.

What I find most amusing about posts such as the one above is that in all the time I have been looking at this site, not one leftie has ever taken one iota of responsiblity for their electoral defeats. I hardly consider myself a zealot nor am I terribly fond of the provincial Liberal party but when faced with the choice of returning to a small, self centred interest group that is demographically totally out of touch with reality, I will contiue to vote for them. That exclusionary goup is the public sector unions. The made BC an ecomomic disaster area in the 1990s and the pluratilty of BC voterrs agree with me. 5500 votes? Please provide a scource for that one.

If also find the extreme anger rather perplexing. Some introspection and real soul searching is what the left in Canada requires to meet the demographic needs of a changing electorate. When I see a BC Fed I see a sea of middle aged white faces that does not represent BC anymore.

Actually, I have worked in other countries, China, South Korea and Japan, working with local busineses to teach them some to the concrete techniques my company pioneered. It kept us busy during the low times the Dark 1990s. That is why I make sure that everybody in my office can speak a second language.

So instead of so much anger ask youself this:

"What can we do to include more people in our movement? What can we do to win elections? What have we done wrong in that we are so unsuccessful in winning elections? Can we actually take responsibity for our defeats?"

It isn't my definition of poverty it's the Canadain gov't so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about tell them.
As for your calculations of child tax credits and GST credits you are really showing your ignorance. Working 35-40hrs a week at $8.00 you'd barely clear $900-1000 a month, rent for a average one bedroom $600+, daycare at least $2-300(depending on the childs age) after subsidy, then you get to pay for food, clothing ,heat, light, phone and let's not forget busfare to work and daycare.
I know personnally a young woman with child who made just over 17,000 last year her child tax credit is about $250 monthly and GST is about $130. Not quite what you claim but then how would you know?

I just love it. Working Man, whom I believe works for one of elgordo's paid-up corporate sponsors, has an answer for every questions.

Tell us wonder man, is it the Independant contractors slush fund that pays you.

And did you keep all those tradesmen and apprentices working through those "dark '90s" by taking them with you to Asia?

Now don't be modest.

Please, explain the work sharing your employees volunteered for while you fled the socialist government of the day?

Did you return home on weekends to do estimates and bid on jobs to keep them working throughout those "dark" years.

Tyee readers deserve to know more about your fantastic exploits on behalf of your workers during those "dark years".

And tell us again about the abject poverty your inlaws fled from overseas before they realized it was just all lazy socialists who were holding them down.

Hey, we need to hear more about your miracle works. You haven't been shy so far about elaborating so please ignore my disbelief and give us more.

I'm actually thinking of nominating you for the next BC Business Man of the year. You make ol' Jimmy Pattison sound like a part timer.

It's certainly good to see the NDP put the new labour links policy in place and much credit has to go to Carole James and the maturity of the labour leaders who put the deal together.

No doubt it's a great disappointment for those who hoped it would explode into a raging battle.

Let us shed a tear for Working Man et/al.

Boy, wouldn't it be great if political parties like the BC Liberals ever got around to weaning itself from the corporate trough and ending the practice of handing tax gifts and freebies to their wealthy friends?

electoral defeat maybe but one hell of a come back considering all the support gordo got from the special interest groups he has been taking care of and all the tax payer money spent on the adds, came very close, the 5500 hundred votes, I will try to find the story. The dark 90s eh, well they weren't nearly as dark as the adjustment your party is going to put this province through.

I am an old socred and consider the ndp the lesser of two evils and that would hardly make me a socialist, the pendulum has swung pretty hard to the right since thatcher in my opinion, where the right used to be is pretty close to where the left is now.

This would make you an extremist for supporting gordo, couple of books for you to read Breach of Promise and Tough Guy the Taking of British Columbia.

I think Allan is on to something when he asks who you really work for.

I wouldn't bother asking allan, you won't get an answer to your questions. Working Man's only purpose hear is to repeat his mantra:

"not one leftie has ever taken one iota of responsiblity for their electoral defeats."

Nevermnd that the statement itself, is almost meaningless; that he speaks of the "left" as some kind of single body. He ignores the kind of introspection that happens here from the "left" an almost daily basis -- the dozens of threads and debates about what the "left" is, or what it should be.

He believes the "left" needs to be more like the BC Liberals.

He claims he is no fan of the BC Liberals, but you will never read him actually criticizing the Liberals. Not over uninvestigated child's deaths, pay raises, or any of their other transgressions. His only purpose here is to make noise, to obfuscate and to troll.

It is easy to stay in government for a special interest class, when they can buy the best mind benders, own the so called "prestigious conservative economic think tanks" pouring out false figures, own the university departments that push out brainwashed economics graduates, own and control all the media filling people's minds with their own propaganda from childhood on, and sue anybody who dares the question the actions and intentions of the corporate masters of the universe, etc. etc

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

In an excellent piece.

I'm busy with things on the home front here, and don't have a lot of time to engage here right now, but lest one thinks these discussions we have here are of no effect, and not part of an important process going on within the working class and its labour movement right now, how many of you have seen a piece doing the rounds by a group called the Solidarity Caucus? (It was apparently distributed at the BC Fed Convention this week.?)

I'd be interested to hear what you folks may know of this group-, whose aims and analysis sound just about spot on, in my view. This item I just finished reading sounds like it could have come right out of some of our discussions around the Teachers' Strike. (Check out solidaritycaucus.org. I haven't yet myself, but will do at my first free moment.)

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what some of you folks know about this caucus.

By the by, y'all are doing a good job of kicking this phony "workingman's" butt. This Braunshirt shows up here every now and again, to spew his reactionary fascist drivel.

Gotta run.

My take on all this is that the BC Liberals are annoyed that the NDP took one of the liberals most famous weapons away from the NDP, 'the labour controlled ndp'...
One member, one vote, is generally a good plan. If all parties adopted this formula, it might change the public's perception of all politicians.
BC Liberal apologists like "Working Man" are afraid that the NDP will re-take the 'integrity' issue from the liberals. They have already soiled that issue by being the only party in gov't in the entire British Commonwealth of nations to have its legislature raided by the police.

One thing I forgot to mention in the list on how the ruling class always manages to get back into government, is their government given power of money creation to rule the world. Here's a very interesting article on the subject.\

As long as we permit them to hold this power, we can kiss our tails goodbye. The most interesting part is that the speech quoted happened in the '20s, during the gold standard days. With deregulated money creation the sky is the limit and they use it.

Ed Deak.

'RETURNING THE MONEY TO THE PEOPLE'

by Ellen Brown
http://www.financialoutrage.org.uk/returning_the_money_to_the_people.htm

_"Is it not obvious that there are serious defects in our banking system and our tax system that deprive most of us of fundamental rights and bestow enormous privileges on others? How many riots must we endure? How many prisons must we build? How many of our rights must we lose? How many of our young people must be sent away to fight in foreign wars before we decide that enough is enough?"__Robert de Fremery - (1916 - 2000)

One of the most remarkable admissions by a banker concerning the mysteries of his profession was made by Sir Josiah Stamp, president of the Bank of England and the second richest man in Britain in the 1920's. Speaking at the University of Texas in 1927, he revealed:

"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was every invented. Banking was conceived in inequity and born in sin Å*. Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again Å*. Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in Å*. But if you want to continue to be the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit."

Working Man, we've gone through this before. According to BC Stats, and I can dig up the exact quotes and stats yet again, BC did pretty damn well during the 90's, leading the country in some years, except for when the asian economy tanked. And even then, the BC economy recovered and was doing fine under the NDP.

As for your line about why the NDP doesn't win elections after losing 2 in a row, well, why did the Liberals always lose elections in the 90's? Because the economy was doing well? Because the education system was doing well? Because child poverty was decreasing? I think you have to ask yourself how, with Can-West onside and donating to Gordo's campaign they still lost 2 elections if the economy was sooo bad. Could just be what you read in the papers was a lie.

Frank, the NDP has won three elections since BC joined confederation.

In 1996, the NDP lost the popular vote, I may add.

Look inward. Are you doing something wrong?

BLONDE PITBULL you omit the Child Tax Benefit, GST credit and daycare allowance from the Children and Families Ministry. Even then you ain't living large but is better than waiting for handouts. Further, you retain your dignity by not being in the clutches of some do-gooder beaurocrat. You will nowhere to go but up.In fact, this kind of whining is an insult to the many working single parents who support their families, which vastly outnumber those waiting for handouts. Why are handouts the only solutions for lefties, anyway?

He believes the "left" needs to be more like the BC Liberals.

Really? Please show me where I state this. Seem it is Carole James who just this weekend made her party more like the provincial
Liberals. She knows that she has to enter the 21st century when the labour "movement" is locked in the 19th. Why is it called a "movement" anyway? Sinclair and Jinnny are the two most conservative people on the BC political scene.

allan the straw man attack really is not very becoming. There are many ways of doing things that are useful and creative. It just requires breaking the mould sometimes. Lefties are so conservative and set in their 19th century ways they are getting left behind. There are many, many rescources available (UBC, SFU)to you to improve your mental process.

But then that may not strike you as very appealing; it involves personal effort, reponsibily and introspection. Waiting for a handout is a lot easier.

And tell us again about the abject poverty your inlaws fled from overseas before they realized it was just all lazy socialists who were holding them down.

And allan the racism is uncalled for. Being jealous of new Canadians is simply a scapegoat for your own lack of success. Perhaps if you examined the work ethic of recent immigrants you might learn something.

"Really? Please show me where I state this."

You didn't Working Man, it was tongue in cheek. I notice that's the only point in my post you replied to, though.

Once again, why is it you never criticize of the BC Liberals? Tell us why you're not "terribly fond of the provincial Liberal party".

Working Man

Luxury living? No, it isn't but any healthy person willing to take charge of their own life can do it and has nowhere to go but up. Waiting for handouts from the "poverty" industy is not better.

You pompass ass...lets hear from some of your "employees" shall we?

I'm so happy the NDP have started to clean up their in house antiquities; now they can start working more on the real democratic reforms and help [not hinder] the move to STV in 2009.

Then in 2009 we can get some other parties in Victoria and set these 79 biznus as usual MLA's on the straight n narrow.

Not all union members support the NDP or Liberals.

Working Man, I didn't make any racist comment what-so-ever and I'd appreciate an apology for your intemperate outburst, but won't be holding my breath waiting.

I have every respect for immigrants, which ought to be a natural for Canadians because we are almost all but a few generations removed from that reality.

No, what I was speaking about are the fascist style statements I hear occasionally from people who really don't know economics, don't know Canadian culture and really don't even have a handle on human realities here, there or anywhere else.

Of course that type of person is often handicapped by the blinkers of wealth that dictate if you don't have it you don't deserve it.

It's a tough way to grow up so isolated from any real hardship that you immediately think communist, leftist or socialist when you see someone who isn't wealthy.

Must be a scary place for you and the family.

By the way, I note you were in Asia in the '90s. So perhaps it was you rather than Glen Clark who drove all of Asia into recession. Wait 'til Gordo learns that.

Were you over there buying cheap resources to exploit or looking for new apprentices.

You really are a straw man Working man, just like your construction firm with dozens of apprentices and all those tradesmen whom you say turned down superior union benefits and working conditions so they could toil for the likes of you.

Working Man, there was no such thing as the NDP (or CCF) at Confederation so drawing the line that far back doesn't work.

There has been a Liberal party however, and they have rarely won elections. The Socreds beat up on them throughout the 50's, 60's and 70's. In fact, until Campbell, they hadn't won any elections in modern history.

As for Campbell winning the popular vote, that's meaningless isn't it? Under FPTP it doesn't matter who wins the popular vote, it only matters who won the most seats. If you wanna stick to the popular vote argument ask yourself why the Liberals can't get 50% support?

Re: Fascism (since it came up)

good article in the T.Star about it

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1132960211791&call_page=TS_SundayIdeas&call_pageid=1105528093962&call_pagepath=Weekly/SundayIdeas&pubid=968163964505

Actually, Working Man, I touched on all three CTC, GST and daycare subsidy. Go back and read it again slower this time. Perhaps you should enrich your mental process as you suggested to Allan, because you sure seem to miss alot when reading others posts.

Working Man:

In the last provincial election, 7 key ridings were won by the BC Liberals by a total of about 3500 votes. Didn't know that? No big surprise since you don't seem to pay very close attention to anything. If those close contests happened the other way around, you'd be looking at an NDP government. The BC Liberals know this, and that is why there wasn't a heck of a lot of celebrations at campaign headquarters after their "big" win. You want proof? Go check out:

http://www.elections.bc.ca/

I'm hoping you can do the math yourself, but who knows.

Not by a long shot rockerbiff. And others are trapped voting NDP in the absence of other alternatives that might be more to their preference. :-)

Coyote asks,

The solidarity caucus has been an intregal part of the labour movement for decades. As a young activist my former President asked me to attend their meetings. At that time the caucus was known as Labour Left.

Historically it was organized to bring progressive debate to the broader labour movement, within Labour Councils, Fed conventions and CLC conventions. There was a caucus in every province and a national caucus.

In the old days our labour forefathers were more-or-less thrown into two camps. The progressives, always smeared as the Commies and the business unions. Some unions had dynamic splits even within their own ranks, such as the IWA. Often the issues were the repatriation of Canadian unions from the Internationals. This fight went on for many many years.Lots of these Canadian unions had to exist outside of the CLC, such as CAIMAW and PPWC. Such were the times.

During Ken Georgetti's terms as President of the BC Fed, Labour Left was very active. Ken came from Steel, who many positioned as a conservitive union. The old Mine Mill would certainly hold this position as did many of us.

Anyway, Ken was seen as a conservative leader during his time as head of Fed. Jim Sinclair and many others still in leadership or activist positions today were the leaders of the Caucus. It was a caucus that took responsibility and acted in activist ways with responsibility. The UIC office sit-ins for example.

Like many coalitions it was taken over by shortsighted and narrow minded agents of desent. All of the brilliant leadership of the caucus departed.

A year or so ago I had a discussion with some of our old comrades with a view to revitalize it. Bring it back to a position of relevance, but discussions were short lived. These days discussions of sellouts vs. virgins passes as serious debate. So we work within the labour system to the best of our abilites.

All the above "caucuses" are a bunch of useless hot air. For all the union dues that went into them, the NDP has 19 federal members. Not terribly successful.

Perhaps these gab-fests should ask:

"After all the money we have spent we have only 19 MPs. Maybe we could change something?

There has been a Liberal party however, and they have rarely won elections. The Socreds beat up on them throughout the 50's, 60's and 70's. In fact, until Campbell, they hadn't won any elections in modern history

You really are a straw man Working man

First of all alan, you know nothing of my or my workers. Second of all, tell me what a "straw man" is and I will answer your questions.

Loose your cool jerking man?

argument ad hominum. Very impressive.

You pompass ass...lets hear from some of your "employees" shall we?

So tell my how waiting for handouts is somehow better than working? I am all ears.

The name calling is very indicitive of the uneducated greying lunch-bucket crowd here. However, if I saw my standard of living fall and saw that of those I cannot identify with rising I would also be upset. Particularly if I did not understand why.

Working Man, don't call Elliot uneducated and old. Besides, he's probably doing okay.

Getting cheques from the government happens more on the right than it does on the left. Follow the money as they say. Not too many leftists get the law changed so they can leave the country with all their millions. You've gotta be pretty tight with the Upper Canada College crowd to pull that off.

At least you admit that people's standard of living is falling. Poverty is doing well and all indicators say its future looks bright. But classifying teachers as criminals and overcrowding their classrooms will no doubt rectify that. I guess kids shouldn't ask for more than to be a burger flipper or a manager of several burger flippers. You can argue with anecdotes but the statistical evidence of us moving to a service, not a knowledge, economy is pretty overwhelming.

Sad really that the rape of our environment by foreign corporations who pocket the profit from our resources has bought so little isn't it?

How many millions per hour now leave the country and go into the pockets of foreigners? Profit derived from our labour and resources enriching the cheque books of foreign shareholders. Over 90% of foreign investment in this country is simply buying up existing Cdn companies and then repatriating the profits.

thanks chris h, so working fool you can see the numbers are even more favourable for the NDP then your useless rhetoric would imply. The liberals are the socreds or at least the hard right wing fanatics that got their butts kicked by the NDP.

They raided the liberals and set gordo up as a front man then a certain office was broken into along with a briefcase, and the rest is history along with a lot of our resources and companies.

The socreds used to take care of everyone then they got greedy and selfish, as you could tell by the fact none of them apologized to the taxpayers for their little attempt to grab some extra cash for themselves after gordo promised to get rid of the gold plated pensions for ever or at least until he wanted it eh.

Talk about a flip flop and his was a lot bigger then James, but then what can you expect from the first premier in our history to get caught driving drunk!

flip flop

I realise you are familiar with this term but I have always wondered how you get the grease smell out of your hair?

At least you admit that people's standard of living is falling

Some people, yes. Some people no. Waiting for handouts and whining about it is not going to raise your standard of living one iota. Get an education, a skill, work ethic and learn how to do something. The days of big paying low skill jobs are over, my friend, and the NDP re not going to bring them back. The writing was on the wall 25 years ago, it was just the left did not want to realise it.

Can the excuses. Get busy. Don't blame your lack of success on others. Many people are doing well in Canada. There are very few people in this world that would not like to share in the oppurtunites we have here. However, I suppose that if you had never left North America you would not have anything to compare our unbelievable wealth to.

PeteL.

Much of the detail of this historical "right-left" split within Labour, I am familiar with. Nonetheless, because much of the analysis in a current document sent to me, and on its web site, in my view, seemed pretty "fresh" and "spot on", I thought perhaps it was an entirely new phenomena. (Though I did kind of wonder if it was perhaps a more "Trot specific" creation-, which is not really a put down on Trots, as a style of work of theirs, with which I am some familiar.)

Anyway, I thank you for your information, Peter. It is appreciated.

Nonetheless, whatever its current manifestation, I must say that I was indeed some impressed, though I might quibble over some of the detail, which is to be expected in any coalition, with the overall analysis presented on their web site and in the document
mailed to me. The thrust being in a call for deep leadership changes within the trade union movement, formed around a programme of major structural, programme and policy changes within the movement.

Which, again in my view, has to come to re-secure any serious relevance for the trade union movement and its leading bodies, in this neo-conservative shifting environment within capitalism.

I will continue to follow it, as best I can from the hinterland, with some interest.

Now, regrettably, I have another busy day. My regards to you all, save the Braunshirt wingy-dings, of course. May they roast.... :-)

coyote; another busy day of drinking dandelion wine with frank, i bet. will your posts get even less lucid as the grog goes down. maybe frank's will get shorter.

Working Man, answering with homilies does not substitute for a reasoned argument.

At the macro level Horatio Alger doesn't apply.

If you think there are a nation's worth of good new jobs and good new opportunities out there then it would seem to me that if you were in charge the wisest course of action to follow would be to use the existing sale of our resources and labour to smooth the move from the existing into the new. Not to simply gut the old and tell everyone to find one of the new. Because it isn't happening. I say its because the new are not showing up in anywhere near the numbers required to replace the old.

You may be happy with this result but I doubt you are, I think you're just being argumentative. Because even among Conservative families I hear arguments similar to mine. The worry over lost job types and the unfulfilled promise of new ones cuts across political lines.

Working Man say:
"The name calling is very indicitive of the uneducated greying lunch-bucket crowd here. However, if I saw my standard of living fall and saw that of those I cannot identify with rising I would also be upset. Particularly if I did not understand why."

Yes, it disturbs me that I cannot wash away that grey...thought I should comment before all your "hard work" is done and you pack up your desk before 2....(nice hours by the way)

Your comments have been isolated, I now recognize them...something to do with a selfish man named "scrooge"...I think it was called "A Christmas Carol"....perhaps your turn to see the ghosts of Christmas is a-comin WM......hope they dont scare ya too much!!

You are right WM, I cannot keep up with the political comments here, I only have basic beliefs in the differences between right and wrong.

I think its wrong for children to die and no one to question why, I think its wrong we are lied to by politicians...and even people posting here. I think its wrong that the workers of this province have nowhere to turn if they are treated unfairly by a wealthy self absorbed employer. I think its wrong that people and children are living in poverty and the wealty would have us believe it's their own fault for being there.

Yes the ghosts are coming.....hang on to your convictions WM...the ride will be much more enjoyable for you!

In response to the union bashing in this thread. Hear this - the benefits working people enjoy today never came about from the goodness of the heart of bosses and the capitalist system.

The lifestyle that working people enjoy today was fought for by organised labour. This lifestyle is under attack by the Liberals.

To rant on this site criticizing the NDP/the unions and comments such as "it's not 1932" don't help to curb the Liberal agenda.

It is time to fight back - fight the Liberals. Not each other on threads like this.

The way to do it - by becoming active in single interest campaign groups, by becoming active in the NDP and not just a member, by becoming active in your union and not just a member.

They (the Liberals) say cut back!
We say fight (organise) back!

Main Street

Main Street

Lecture the union bashers all you want, but fact is it won't change their minds. Ignorance is inbred, and no matter how many progressive things the union movement has brought to society over the years, most people would rather believe what the media and the right wing politicians and their employers tell them.

And some people from my union have an interesting spin on the last thing you posted...

"They say cutback".... "we say f$ck that!!!!"

As for the comment about "it's not 1932..." the person is absolutely right!! So try telling that to the neo cons like Gordon Campbell who seem hell bent to drive working people in this province back to the stone ages when it comes to working conditions and pay. I was a delegate to the convention, and like any other change, it wasn't easy and not everyone was happy about it. But isn't that the way life in general is?

Unions were a very good thing and the union movement was a good thing.
Human behaviour is such that we tend to take a good thing and try to make it better and it usually defeats the purpose much like it has with unions.
The unions got too greedy and now the tide has turned against them. The once powerful union movement is a shadow of its former self. What started out as a means to get a fair shake for workers has turned into a hiding place for a lot of unproductive lazy folks that don't want to work too hard. Union workers are known for not putting out any more than they have to and it's hard to take pride in your job with that mentality. Its also hard for a company to thrive with that kind of worker mindset.
I am not saying all union workers are like that, in fact, I know some hard working union members but most are not. It's hard to be any different when the indoctrination from day one in the union movemnet is its us against them.
Companies thrive when everyone works together and you don't get that with unions and management.
I don't think Gordon Campbell is breaking up the unions in B.C, they seem to be self destructing simply because of greed and misguided ideology.

Gee, barryjo, and I thought you were going to tell us some of those union people were among your best friends or something.

The hiding place for lazy folks is just as often behind family trust style arrangements, farming offshore accounts or privilaged corporate boards appointments.

Unfortunately those plucking plumbs are painted in the media as hard earned and honourable. While real workers who do extra are vilified in the manner you appear to favour.

If Gordon Campbell ripped up a contract with a major service provider because he had political problems with it and you, as a shareholder in that firm, suffered substantial losses in much needed income, would you say: "I don't think Gordon Campbell is breaking up" my company, "it seems to be self destructing simply because of greed and misguided ideology?"

BTW, "we tend to take a good thing and try to make it better and it usually defeats the purpose. . ."

That's what some of us having been saying about capitalism for a long time. Look at the mess it has made around the world and now it's out of control.

So unions are dying on the vine because people don't want to join them because they get too much?

Since when have people started turning down union jobs? Since when has there been a rush to quit union jobs?

I've rarely met anyone who wouldn't want to be a member of union if given the opportunity even if they weren't of a leftist bent.

Unions have lost members because companies don't want them. Not that they ever did, even in the mythical time when unions "were good".

The reason companies don't want them is you can't threaten your employee with the unemployment line if he has a union behind him. You can't give the big promotion to the guy that golfs with the boss if other people have a union behind them. So of course companies don't want unions and of course workers do.

People have tried and even succeeded in unionizing a McDonalds or a Wal-Mart but the companies concentrate on busting those unions through turnover, shutdown threats and other means as soon as possible.

If you want to see the case for unions, work at some of the places I used to, all non-union and all places where less than 10 unpaid overtime hours a week is a firing offence. Companies certainly thrive when workers are too nervous to be the first to go home at quitting time but I notice you didn't mention that it mattered if workers thrived in non-union environments.

Unions self-destructing indeed. Workers too intimidated to ask for a lunch break let alone a union vote more like.

Oh and I'm not saying that all non-union companies are greedily exploiting their workers to make an obscene profit its just something that happens when power in the workplace is 100% with the boss.

Frank,
I know a lot of people, myself included that wouldn't work in a union environment.
Tried it when I was younger in the IWA and the BCGEU.
I take pride in working hard and I was told my work ethic was a little over exuberant.
I'm not saying there isn't some hard workers in unions, what I'm saying is the poisoned ideology of get what you can for the least amount of effort put forth is not good for anyone, the company or the worker.
I prefer to work hard, help the company prosper and get rewarded by the company. The union mantra is that if you work hard the employer will take advantage of you, I have found the opposite to be true.
In fact, I started my own company several years ago and anyone that works for me works really hard and they get compensated really well.
I say if you're a union worker and you feel good about your productivity and you enjoy your job, great, It wasn't for me though and it wasn't for many others I know so don't think folks sit out in the world and dream about one day getting a union job, many think quite the opposite.
You mention power in the workplace is 100% with the boss. You know how to take that power back, work hard and in most cases you will be appreciated and rewarded.

barryjo, it still comes down to the fact that unions are not withering because of lack of people wanting to work for one.

frank,
Why is the union movement losing so much steam and withering?
Just wonderin because usually something really good grows and grows, in this case though it seems they are losung the power they once had.

Well, if nothing else this influx of righties certainly indicates the Tyee is being heard.

Yes, barryjo, you are yet another entrepreneur who has gone out and successfully taken on the world all by yourself.

No, you don't need a big bad union holding you down.

Please come out with an original storyline if your going to spread your loads here barryjo.

Working Man is still playing that schtick out with his big band of apprentices and purely anti-union tradesmen.

Another guy (petes), has just arrived who claims to be a house builder has been muttering dark comments to Big Ed about being dangerous.

Before them we had guys going to Alberta or maybe trying to get out of Alberta, telling us how misguided we lefties are.

Each of you sing the wonders of not having to pay union wages or benefits or having to respect their workers.

Instead you all blather about how hard your workers toil and just how succesful you are.

Can't you guys pretend to be firemen or doctors or government communications hacks or something a little more likely?

barryjo, I clearly stated the reasons for the slow decline in union memberships.

Companies don't want them and employees know that a union that doesn't exist yet is not going to save their job when they try to form one. Just look at the status of McDonalds and Wal-Mart employees who went the union route.

You say your employees are all happy and prosperous, great. But I know all aren't. As I said, there are companies that demand unpaid overtime, constantly and there is nothing employees can do about it except leave.

You want people to work hard, fine. But there are plenty of people who already work hard taking care of their families and they just want to do their job and get back home. Why shouldn't they be able to? Should a 35 year old single mother of 3 kids be expected to work the same amount of overtime as a 25 year old single male with no dependents? Yet if they're in the same workplace the 35 year old mom will have no chance of competing against the 25 year old in spite of doing her job.

barryjo, I could also ask, why is the environment getting worse? Isn't a clean environment a good thing? You'd think it would just keep getting better wouldn't you?

Fact is, there is no magic fairy that makes good things grow and bad things wither.

Frank, the environment is a good thing, it is getting screwed up because people are abusing it, the same for unions, they were a good thing but the whole process seems to be getting abused by greed and those who want more money for less work.

As for Allan, you are a very cynical, angry person, maybe you should come and do some really hard work, it' great for stress relief.

barryjo, workers are greedy but employers aren't? Employers never want more for less?

Corporations were a good idea too but its too bad they've been used to trash the environment and abuse workers.

Anyway, being as I respond to you and you don't do me the courtesy of responding back this has become a one-way conversation.

barryjo, I admit to being cynical and at times I do get angry, but as often as not (as in the post above), I prefer to write in a manner that equals or balances the tone I respond to.

I thought I was being frank with someone who sees no difficlting in telling tens of thousands of workers that they are all greedy a--holes.

Now, perhaps you thought you were providing advice, logic and understanding to this forum.

My read is you are here to disrupt and now, because you are dumb enough, you think you can act cute and feign hurt feelings and injustice in my reply.

Whine on and, believe me, I sit here with a smile as I say this. Offence definitely intended, sans anger.

As for hard work, give me a break. You haven't a clue what I do or can do, nor do I know your capacity other than by your words, which I noted earlier do appear somewhat overplayed.

However, I do note you brag your employees work "really hard".

Again, barryjo, the storyline is a definite repeat here at Tyee.

Allan,
I truly feel for you, living in such a land of opportunity and being so negative all the time.
I am either nay or yay for unions, I think they were good, now they are crumbling and shrinking and I believe they will someday get stronger again. They serve to keep greedy employers in line but then they got too greedy themselves.
I prefered to work non union merely because I'm a hyper guy and I used to make union guys look bad because of my work ethic, or so they told me. Hey, if you can get away with doing as little as possible for as much as possible and feel good about it at the end of the day rock on my friend.

Save your tears barryjo.

If you go back and read your and my posts you will note it is you who launched the negativity and have continued in each post since your broadside against trade unionism.

Don't like my cynicism?

Then don't spew negativism and then weep about the brown stuff that's sticks on you when the fan comes on.

Especially when you continue to spew it.

Allan,
I don't think unions are bad, I think they have place in society, I think they were started for a workers protection and benefit.
I think they have gotten out of touch with reality though and breed a mostly lazy, what can we get out of life for the least amount of effort attitude amongst its workers.
Note I say mostly, I do know a few hard working union folks.
Please note that I said I feel for you, I don't say I shed tears for you, I just think it sucks to be where you're at in life.
I don't want to feel like that, I'm 53 years and in good shape cause I work hard and lift weights and have positive outlook on life. Do volunteer work and enjoy my community.
Get out there and do something, get a little excercise and help others and you will stop being angry at everyone in the world that doesn't think like you.
I am glad for those who want to be in a union, I just want to let you know there are a lot of people that aren't interested in that or strive to be in that situation.

until the day I see union jobs go begging I'll have trouble believing unions are on a downward slide of their own making.

lazy business owners who want their workers to work hard so they don't have to is something I'm more aware of.

barryjo, there you go again, making dumb assumptions like Working Man.

Same MO, same errors in understanding, same dumb arrogant belief that your views are actually novel or even current.

You guys paid by the same people?

You are entitled to come here and repeat that silliness forever if you need, but it doesn't change the fact you hold a quite negative and naive appreciation for unions.

You are several years younger than I and no doubt lift far more weights than I and it appears to have thickened the muscles in your brain quite substantially. So congrats, but don't rush out and get a haircut or anything rash.

I prefer other forms of exercise, I also volunteer if you must know and keep as active as I wish, thank you very much.

Next time you want to try making a point, please drop the "I did it my way" fiddle music.

As I've mentioned before, it's quite repetitive around here. Beside you only seem to play sour notes.

I realize you don't like unions, but am still trying to understand why you have such a hate on for unions.

My suspicion is that you realize you can't undercut your fellow workers when there is a union enforcing minimum standards.

" What part of I don't think union are bad" don't you understand, It's the mentality of union workers that I don't care for.

As for "you can't undercut your fellow workers". I pay very good money with benefits for men that take pride in their hard work, and extra benefits like front row seats to hockey games for the whole crew and an extra week off with pay, plus 1000 dollars American etc. and plane tickets to Disneyland for one of my foreman two months ago.

You see, I can afford that because we are all on the same page and their is no us against them mentality, so the company flourishes and everone is really happy.

Oh I didn't mention that the forman and all of my employees are low bottom,chronic drug addicts who have changed everthing in their lives and appreciate it when someone treats them with respect and dignity.

I don't know what life has been like for you but as a child my mother and father were drug addicts and I was severely abused every way possible and I ended up being one of those low bottom, chronic addicts and then a few years ago my four year lod son died following minor surgery. Someone along the way treated me with dignity and respect and I changed my life and now I repay that by helping others in similar situations. I don't want any sympathy from anyone, least of all from you, I just wish folks like you could appreciate the fact that we all have different paths, different points of view and we will never agree with evrything.

On that die when you take your last breathe will it really matter if you are in a union or not, will it matter if you were right or wrong all the time. I doubt it, so I hope you take the time to look at really matters in life, it sure isn't what we've been arguing about the last few days.

I'm very sorry to read of your loss barryjo, I can't imagine anything worse than losing a child.

barryjo, I too am sorry for you loss and if your life has been as you say, then congratulations for turning it around and helping others to do the same.

But I'm afraid what you now tell us has very little do do with what we were arguing about, your negative attitude toward unions.

You offer little compassion for union people describing them essentially as greedy, lazy and dumb and then you come back when criticized and play your sympathy card.

As for your question atop your last posting. Hollow, after-the-fact, wording, is my read.

Tacky is about the best description I can think of.

Allan,
I did not say union members were all greedy and lazy etc. I did say that there are some that are basically lazy etc. because human behaviour being what it is there are some that will thrive in a union setting because they are lazy and can get away with it there. How do I know that, I am a hyper guy and I worked in two unions and I was constantly being told to slow down I was making the other guys look bad etc. They told me it wasn't cool and I shouldn't work at that pace. I never said union folks were greedy, I said unions have a purpose to keep greedy employers in line.
As for playing the sympathy card, what part of "I don't want any sympathy from anyone, least of all you" don't you understand. I was merely trying to show that no matter what we go through we don't have to be bitter, in fact, the life I have today is beyond anything I could have imagined.
After reading all your posts I can't imagine what happened in your life to make you as miserable and mean spirited as you are. I hope and pray you get the help you need because life in this country, particularily if you've worked in a union and enjoy a good union pension shouldn't have reduced your life to what what it has become.

barryjo, you are pathetic.

You began your anti-union rant on this post two days ago with comments like "unions got too greedy", "a lot of unproductive lazy folks" and the classic "I know of some hard working union members but most are not."

Who'd you borrow that last one from, the John Birch Society?

You top that one off with a bit of tsk,tsking of people who just happen to suspect that Gordon Campbell ripped up their collective agreement in the health care sector because he doesn't like unions.

Funny, but the International Labour Organization saw it the same way the workers did, but then they don't have your expertise,
I guess.

What really gets me though, is when I reply with a bit a humour to your silly comments you accuse me of being angry, miserable and mean-spirited, words I suggest better fit your un
provoked attack on unions and union workers.

I do find it curious, though, that since you started ranting on this link, your pal Working Man has gone missing.

I wonder, is that good, bad or just good planning.

Allan,
I truly feel sorry for you. Someone really hurt you sometime in your life, and you know what, it wasn't me or anybody else on this board. Plese get help, life is too short to stay the way you are, its never too late to change.
I have it figured out after reading all your posts on various subjects, you have never felt really significant or worthy in your life and this board gives you a sense of power and it is so hurtful to your newly found sense of power when anyone has a different point of view.
Nothing you print here can make me mad,but it does make me terribly sad for you.

barryjo, I am beginning to see the light.

I just noticed your posting on the story of the downtown eastside police busts and see you are again an expert and everyone else is just in the way.

Hey, don't waste it on us. The world's been waiting for someone like you for eons.

But, I've also noted you are into major avoidance. You go out of your way to not respond directly to comments I make regarding your silly posting, instead concentrating on trying to blame me for your own pre-existing hates and biases.

The shallowness of your efforts get more clear in each posting. Now you think a bit of psychological game playing will work?

As I said, pathetic.

Allan,
Your right I'm a no good for nothing and the world doesn't want or need me.
There, hope you feel better, have a nice day.

barryjo; don't worry too much about allan. it's obvious from the amount of time he spends blathering away about nothing on this site that he has absolutely no life. it wouldn't be so bad if he said something that made sense every once in a while, but it's all boring nonsense lefty cliche. who cares?