Is there a misquote regarding Sullivan's claim of "60 by 60 foot" rooms? That's 3,600 sq ft, bigger than a "monster house"...

Did the disgraceful yet typical and predictable outpouring of elitist nimbyism in dunbar suprise anyone?
Not in our neighborhood. That used to be a working class neighborhood now it's populated with the worst humanity has to offer. It would be an improvement to have a half-way house.
Atleast then there would be some ordinary people as opposed to sleazy lawyers, planet rapers and ESL sweat-shop owning slumlords.

To the last remnants of the real dunbar I apologize. I guess there must be some of you left.
To the rest of you, and you know who you are, I hope you've enjoyed your big tax cuts.

Much reflects what has happened to the Left or Old Left, whatever you want to call it, over the post war prosperity years and then on the heels of that, the years of increasing neocon ruling class oppression. Which is a continuing tendency to accept "The System" as it is, as a given, to work with it, and increasingly be co-opted and assimilated by it. It seems to have been something that has happened and continues to happen to the longtime organizations of the working class and poor-, including as we've been witnessing these last few weeks, the trade union movement.

This problem as well is a measure of the huge job that is going to have to be done to either turn this reality around within these structures and/or to create new, competing ones, with revitalized and more class conscious leaderships.

Easy to talk about and harder to do, I appreciate. The "popular" supporting climate is going to likely have to be there first, or growing up with these transformative movements. Right now, and maybe I'm wrong on this one, but it seems to me still too many folks are casting about for "individualist" rather than "collective" solutions to these problems of current society.

I'd be interested to hear other views on this though.

Now, I'm on the Yellow Brick Rd. to the Big City myself.

Wow, someone is certainly jealous of those that can afford to live in the west side. You seem to devote all your energy to the hatred of those who have worked hard and have become successful.

Those who can do, those who can't ask the government.

build more free housing = attract more people wanting free housing.

Raise welfare rates = buy more welfare recipients.

Go soft on criminals = attract more criminals

Give out free drugs = create more drug users

Gotta love COPE for higher taxes, more crime, more drugs, lower credit rating.

I feel sick everytime I drive through those neighborhoods and remember the places they used to be. There is no sense of community, no goodwill, only unfriendly fortresses and paranoid yuppies with double locks and motion sensor car alarms. Private security patrols seek out anyone who doesn't fit the "mould" and exclusionary firewalls are everywhere.
If that is what you call sucess you can keep it.
Now my town has been eviscerated by your hero, gordo the unjust, to make way for his urban sprawl, gentrified, wet dream nightmare.
What's your line of "hard work"? Separating little old ladies from their life savings?

Yes jesterjogger, unlike when I drive through the DTES and I get that warm fuzzy feeling and my head is filled with visions of puppies & rainbows; or perhaps its the second hand crack smoke.

I would say Dunbar has a great sense of community like most areas of Vancouver, only you seem to be too clouded with your hatred for those who earn a living above the poverty line; clearly failing your litmus test for decency.

I was disappointed when a realtor representing the Dunbar Neighbourhood Association came out swinging before they knew what would be proposed with the site.

I used to rent a basement in Dunbar when I went to UBC in the '90s.

As an urban planning consultant, I am very interested in affordable & social housing. From the empirical studies I have seen, there is no correlation between introducing group homes & special needs housing into a neighbourhood and reduced property values. Period.

That much being said, there ought to be a public process regarding the selection of services which would be provided at this site. Good neighbour agreements can spell out exactly what neighbours can expect from the newcomers, and vice versa.

By rejecting social housing in their neighbourhood, Dunbar residents are exporting their problems to other locales which have an over-concentration of social services, such as the DTES.

On a more personal note, many acquaintances I met upon arriving in Vancouver in the late '80s, who lived & grew up in Kerrisdale and Dunbar, got involved in heroin in their late teens. From this crowd, most are dead, in jail, or living in an SRO in the DTES. What would have happened if these youths could have received support in their home neighbourhood, closer to friends and family?

The Athlete's Village proposal now out to requests for interest only indicates "possible" social housing units.

Despite Jim Green and Larry Campbell's oft repeated falsehoods about the Olympics providing social housing we see, like other Olympic hosting cities, that promises, even by the likes of Jim Green, are as hollow as chicken legs.

If Green is elected Mayor he should trade in his pork pie hat for a pork barrel one. Those special interests supporting his run will need to feed off of his office's trough.

If drug addiction is indeed a medical issue then every doctor's office in BC and Canada should be able to administer a daily dose of the addicted substance with the ability to ensure the person with the addiction is as healthy as possible.

This way folks can remain in their own cities and neighbourhoods and there would be no reason to create heroin ghettos.

are there any other issues besides the homeless, drug addicts and walmart?

Doing nothing = Continue to use the downtown east side as the dumping ground of Vancouver

Doing nothing = voting NPA

Doing nothing = unrest similar to what is happening in France

Doing nothing with an NPA mayer = MORE crime and more poverty and more people living on the streets

Are both Fred and Ethel saying that welfare, drugs and poverty is someting that is going to increase because of the modest attempts to move these people in a more positive direction? If the heroin addict no longer needs to break your car window to get the $1.75 in coins that you left in your car, how can this be not a bad thing?

only 9 days left tyee. pump it up!!! must re-elect the socialist freaks so they can turn this once beautiful city into a bigger garbage dump. oh wait, tim louis has a better idea. a big whorehouse run by the city staff. my cousin's been working there for 30 years. always knew he was a pimp at heart.

Wait a minute. How can doing nothing = voting NPA? They're not the incumbents. And it completely contradicts your first statement. It was COPE that campaigned on the issue of the down town east side, and from the facts in this article it doesn't really sound like they delivered.

Just trying to stick to the issues. I voted COPE only to watch the party implode. The Vision and COPE candidates are saying that they can work together, yet the fact that they couldn't even work together in the same party tells me they can't. I'd like to see more collaboration and teamwork on council.

The people who own the $750 000 TO $2000 000
dwellings, which in the real world sell for about 1/3 of those prices have to be conciousless blood suckers. Coyote and jester jogger have got it right on. I doubt very much that fred ethel and vile stomach a have ever worked very hard in amassing their hoard of cash and all the ticky tacky accouterments and toys they have collected. Nonetheless, the honest workers have no one to blame but themselves - in that they persitently support the trash that support thes leeches who are systematically destroying their world and have through their "democracy" oppressed them for centuries. Civility is lost, compassion is dead and coperation has been replaced by individual greed and lust for power, hence the steady demise of the once glorious first city in the world. "He who dies with the most toys wins"
Glen Sather - Pocklington Puppet.

One of the issues with the SRA bylaw is that it actually discourages private low income housing development and the creation of SRA's or even hostels. It was brought in to coincide with the Olympics, to stop the evictions that happened for EXPO, but it was brought in much too early for a three week event.

One of the concerns is that property owners are afraid to create new developments in the worry that the city may deem them SRA and cost the developers.

There is definately a need to provide an incentive to provide low income housing, and tax incetives. Also, and I may be wrong, but I think the SRA hinders the conversion into hostels, which are a space conscious way to get people off the streets.

However, I think an antivacancy penalty does actually have a purpose, although it would need to be applied selectively. I mean, we don't need every last bit of unused land developed in the next 3 years, but we do have a number of places that are just being held onto until a rezoning can occur which sometimes results in blocks with tons of vacancies, which jsut become problem spots.

dgb; smoke another fatty.

Elliot You have such a clever way with words, it must be difficult with your head up your posterior
aperature.

November 12, 2005

ROBBINS Sce Research (1998)
robbinssceresearch.com

For immediate release

Attention Frances Bula/Reporter Vancouver Sun

In your recent article (November 12, 2005) “Sullivan, Green both claim lead”; it is my opinion as an independent private public opinion pollster that the NPA version of ‘political events’ in the Vancouver Mayoral election is more acceptable than Vision Vancouver’s.

For background, our recent ROBBINS survey ‘of mostly decided’ voters reveals a virtual dead heat between the candidates with Sam Sullivan slightly ahead. However, our survey did not reveal two ‘unweighted elements’. First, the number of women respondents in our survey was 54%, and the number of respondents under the age of 45 at 47%. Although many in the establishment often deem our questions unorthodox we think they ultimately give us a significant advantage in our ability to properly prognosticate.

The Vision Vancouver poll considers itself to be accurate within 4.5 percentage points. We rated out survey of around 250 respondents to be accurate within approximately 5 (five) percentage points. Yet, Vision campaign Chairman Ian Reid stated in your article that the Vision Vancouver poll had ‘the undecided’ at 31 (thirty-one) per cent.

As a professional pollster with a history of deadly accuracy, I can tell you that I would take the relative rudimentary findings of a survey with an undecided of 5% or less over a ‘scientific poll’ with an undecided of 31%, 999 times out of 1000.

I suspect, (what I have long suspected) is that a poll is only considered ‘scientific’ if the press who is sponsoring the poll wishes to deem it to be scientific. I firmly believe (as most right-thinking political people probably do) that the race for Mayor is closer than either candidate would want readers to believe.

Based on the information in your article, I would be more inclined to believe the NPA’s depiction of Vancouver residents leading up to Election Day.

Glen P. Robbins

(604) 942-3757
-30-

One party will not have an advantage over the other when it comes to dealing with homelessness.

Most homeless people have made a choice to live the way they do, there are opportunities to make positive life changes, if they so choose.

Lives reduced to this level are heartbreaking stories but one has to have the desire to change before anything positive can happen. Most homeless people live a nomadic lifestyle by choice, they don't like being accountable and productive and most don't want to stop using drugs.

I have lived the life, I was homeless and I was addicted to heroin for twenty seven years and change was not possible until I became willing.

The solution to homelessness is to offer a way out of the lifestyle through a variety of programs. The worst thing to do is to enable the behaviour and lifestyle through programs that give out free drugs etc.

Most homeless people have made a choice to live the way they do,...

Barryjo, perhaps you can explain to me, why, if this is so, wealthy people do not make this choice?

There's something I am probably missing here.

Vancouver is a very expensive city to live in.

If I was on relief, of course I'd like to snag a low-income unit here, but in the meantime, I'd want to go to a place where I actually could rent a room for, whatever, $400/month.

Maybe that would be Blue River. I don't know.

For clarity, I should say, I agree with you that help needs to take the form of real help that doesn't 'enable' people. I do not think that people have a Divine right to live a party life-style, primarily because that usually infringes on other people. What I think is that addiction is a real issue and it's a health issue, not a moral one. Drugs should be completely legalized, while offering good abstinence based treatment programs and poverty addressed. Health needs of the addict can be addressed at the level of their health care provider, who would also prescribe their drugs. The political aspects of the DTES should be dismantled, but in a way that supports poor people. There are too many people with their own agenda in this neighbourhood and so much suffering that never gets addressed. While it is true that sometimes a ghetto is also a community, it isn't always true, nor is it true for all who live there. I don't believe in ghettos, whether wealthy or poverty stricken. I think all people have a right to safe, clean and quiet shelter that they can afford and that meets their needs. This is a fundamental right of a human being.

Yammer, 'snagged'? That's pretty pejorative. And, it assumes of course that they must share an opportunistic 'world view'. There are other words. 'Fortunate', 'blessed', 'lucky', 'cared for', 'Divinely looked after', 'regarded by society, respected ect ect. I suppose one could 'snag' one's lottery of one's birth and be born a Vanderbuilt as well, no?

I believe people have a right to remain in the neighbourhoods that they were born into. And, they have a right not to be artificially pushed and manipultated out of their own cities. There is a flaw in our system that permits basic needs to be market manipulated. There is a flaw in our sytem that does not allow for anyone, who is working, at least, for heaven's sake, not be able to secure adequate housing and pay for their other needs. I suppose it is one of the fundamental flaws of deregulated capitalism. Until these 'market fundamentalists' create such a mess that no one will want to be caught near their philosophy, (and this is well on it's way) there won't even be the most basic discussion about alternate, creative ideas. The good ideas such as coop housing which Vancouver can be proud of, are being eroded.

Redriver girl,
I have spent over ten years researching the idea of drug legalization and although we aren't doing to well in the war on drugs the alternative is far worse. Every situation I have looked at in history where drugs were legalized an epidemic took place. For instance in China in the 1880's Opium was legalized and in ten years over half the population was addicted and the country was in serious social decline. When they made it illegal once again rates of addiction plummetted. Just one of many, many instances.
If you don't really understand addiction, it seems like a rational idea to legalize drugs but you are dealing with a very irrational,complex problem and the real people that get hurt our the kids as the preception is sometimes how they make judgement calls and if the government legalizes illicit drugs (kids will see this as the government condoning the use) you can bet more kids will get addicted. Once again my research shows that to be very true.

Redriver girl,
Wealthy people don't make the choice to live on the streets because most of them have decided they don't want to live like that and they would rather be productive members of society, a side benefit which is having money to spend to live in a comfortable setting.
Many homeless people don't have a choice, mental illness, past abuse issues etc. renders them powerless to fend for themselves and most live with no self esteem and no hope for the future. The government needs to look at all cases on an individual basis rather than lumping them all into one category and give help to those who truely want and need it.
There are many, many who do not want to conform to civilized ways or be accountable for theie lives. Many don't want to live by the rules, whether it be rules of their place of residence or laws of the land.
Why should taxpayers foot the bill for those who want to use drugs and be a drain on society when the reality is that most could change their lives if they really wanted to.

I don't mean to be flip BarryJo, particularly to someone who has suffered as you have, but I would suggest your research has gone on much longer than 10 years.

I don't believe anyone chooses homelessness, however I also don't believe that any one of us could be so self-absorbed as to believe that homelessness comes down to personal choice. This is in my opinion, a selfish and very smug attitude that seems to resonate well amongst (particularly) people who don't (or won't) have to make that choice.

That comment is not directly at any of the blogs on this story (another very good one by Tyee) in any way, it is my own thought as I digested the other ones.

I have been around homelessness and desperation and I can tell you, there are few people who can properly write about it unless they have experienced it.

I watched a CBC Peter Mansbridge Remembrance Day show with three Holocaust victims speaking of their personal experience. Now I have followed history, and am reasonably aware of this horrible tragedy. But when these people spoke of their experience first hand everyone in the room watching it with me was slack jawed, and could not speak. Stunned. Unbelievable. Unimaginable how some people can be so cruel.

Barryjo, I would like to know more about homelessness. What more can you tell me?

For me personally, I lost hope for life after my four year old son dies following minor surgery (he was allergic to the anisethetic). It is a place where all hope and the desire to live is replaced with a sense of surrender to the worst life can give us. At that point some cardboard and a place to curl up behind a dumpster is considered an okay situation.
I met a lot of homeless people who had opportunities for housing and either refused them or would not comply with very common rules of conduct. For them it is a choice to live on the streets and be independent until they make the decision to want to make positive changes in their lives. Usually substance abuse plays a big part and my experience is that those that make an honest effort have a chance to find employment and housing.

Barryjo-you write that piece at a moment in time when my younger brother Gordie (one of seven bros and sisters) is in Miami Florida with a very sick 3 month old son Jacob (Children's Hospital). I have been going jogging to meditate and pray, at least give some positive energy to my brother his wife and the baby, but the pain I feel (I can only imagine his, and what yours must have been) causes me to breakdown and cry. (I think the people who see me balling my eyes on the track are thinking I should take a break).

After growing up in an alcoholic home (and I loved my parents deeply), and following my father's death at a very young age, I too had feelings of such deep and unequvical surrender to all that is dark and for me pitiful, at least in my soul, even though I was not homeless, you imagery makes me understand.

It was only after the birth of my daughter and the umpteenth street brawl I had 'gloriously' engaged in, followed by rocks being thrown through our windows and near my daughter's crib, that I too decided that although I had the God given right to ruin my own life, I did not have the right to do so to that child.

Perhaps through different paths we have arrived near the same place.

Sansei Van:

Are you kidding? Mr.& Ms. Middleclass are absolutely scared to death of ANYTHING they perceive as affecting the value of their property.

Just want to clarify something written a few posts back- just because one lives in an affluent neighbourhood does not make them a "productive member of society". Just as not all homeless people (or poverty-stricken) ones, are unproductive. I know a homeless guy who volunteers at the Kettle on Venables and a near-homeless woman who has many friends in her neighbourhood because she does gardening (for next to nothing) and does all the leaf-cleaning and picking up of litter at the nearby park.

Working for a telecommunications giant, say, and spending your life in a cubicle, but bringing in upwards of 70,000 grand a year does not mean you are helping anyone or being truly productive.

It's simply a reflection of our society's warped value system.

Robbins Sce Research,
When a child is critically ill or dies it leaves one feeling utterly powerless. It seems so unfair and it isn't the natural process of life or family dynamics.
Be strong for your brother and his family and know that it always the darkest before the dawn.
Jacob is in my prayers.

Thank you for sharing Barryjo and Robbins.
Many blessings to the both of you.

Who is Jim Greeen?

A twice indicted drafted dodger for the Alabama
who ran to Canada to miss the draft instead of staying in his country to fight against the war as many thousands of Americans did. This is the mark of a true coward.

Not a Professor as he states in his literature

A man who uses lies,intimidation, threats, and law suits to supress anyone who opposes him

A bully, thug and poverty pimp to the DTES.
A man who claims to be a champion of the DTES even though all things have gotten worse down there with Jim Green as a councillor.

A man whose bank lost $5mil of taxpayers money before it was closed.

A man who is a developer, whose election expenses are paid for by developers and who negotiated the Woodward's deal with developers.
This shows how corrupt this man really is.

The man who negotiated the Woodward's deal that has a $16mil shortfall of which taxpayers
will have to make up $13mil and a city quaranteed no interest mortgage for the developers of the Woodward's project.

A man who left COPE with a large debt when he left COPE and formed Vision.

A man who takes credit for starting the injection site when in fact it was some nurses and other people who started it.

A man who is not fit to hold office in Vancouver.

Thank BarryJ and RedD-very very kind of you both

Redriver:

>"Yammer, 'snagged'? That's pretty pejorative."

It is? I meant, I'd want to get. I was trying to sound casual instead of my usual pompous/magesterial. I was this far away (holds fingertips closely together) from saying "chilling in my crib."

>I suppose one could 'snag' one's lottery of one's birth and be born a Vanderbuilt as well, no?

Vanderbilt. And, uh, no.

>I believe people have a right to remain in the neighbourhoods that they were born into.

This sounds good, but this right does not appear on the list of universal rights on the UN agreement. Hathaway, among others, reminds us that there are senior and junior rights. The "right" to remain in Kerrisdale, say, would be a fun thing to argue under the Charter but not too likely to persuade anybody.

>There is a flaw in our sytem that does not allow for anyone, who is working, at least, for heaven's sake, not be able to secure adequate housing and pay for their other needs.

Once the double negatives are removed, I think you are saying the minimum wage is inadequate for a lot of people's needs. (You say nothing about full or part time hours, but I'm trying to take your argument seriously.)

I would agree with that. I think we could make a good argument tying the minimum to the Low-Income Cut Off.

>Until these 'market fundamentalists' create such a mess that no one will want to be caught near their philosophy, (and this is well on it's way) there won't even be the most basic discussion about alternate, creative ideas. The good ideas such as coop housing which Vancouver can be proud of, are being eroded.

Who are you callin' fundamentalist?

It will be very interesting to hear the renewed squealing here when Jim Green loses next Saturday. Then again, his stool at the Yale Hotel is getting dusty. Word has it he has been on the wagon for the election period.

Yammer, if the best you can do is attack my grammar and spelling, your argument is woefully inadequate. Suffice it to say, that some of us are less pedantic than others. Would you instead, attempt to look at the larger results of policy and ideology on your country? The problem is far more complicated than a minimum wage issue; it is a major structural fault.

Perhaps reviewing some history and seeing how land grabs and the displacement of people have contributed to poverty and the social problems we have today might provide some clarity.

A city doesn't work if its inhabitants can't afford to live there. A society doesn't work if it depends on a large underclass to provide prosperity for a few. Surely, we can attempt to arrive at some creative solutions. I maintain that until this 'new era' of 'market fundamentalism' is finally over there won't be any creativity. Nor, any real solution at all. Thankfully, this 'new era' is passing into the old.

I will agree that perhaps linking the min wage with poverty levels is a good start. Australia has a 'high' min wage, although the 'fundamentalists' over there are trying to lower it.

The solution lies in intiatives known as social enterprise ventures which match a solid business plan and a social cause with one objective never superseding the other. Profits go towards futhering the social aspect of the enterprise.
The problem is to find someone who has a good business sense and a big heart, most are in business for the love of money and most in the non-proift sector with big hearts have become dependent on government handouts.

Well, we don't have to reinvent the wheel either. Rent controls with margins designed to protect the owner by building in new owner morgage and structural repairs worked for years. It used to be recognized that real estate was a 'safe' investment and thus one didn't get 'rich' on rents! However, that was in a time when many business people felt a strong moral obligation to their communities, and understood the value in a 'safe' investment. The same can't be said about this new bunch of pretend 'globalists' who pick their ideology by their pocket book. As a result, real estate is no longer a safe investment, but that another story. And, I'm sure more than a few condo owners would be happier if Campbell hadn't relaxed the building code when he was mayor resulting in the leaky condo scandal.

As far as non-profit 'dependent' on gov't 'handouts, are they? Or, do we as taxpayers recognize there are social ills that collectively we need to address and have decided to pool some of our taxes to address these problems and do this via some non-profits? We could do it through direct public services, no? Some might argue we should. Why must social service non-profits be 'self-sufficient'? Last time I checked Maximus sure isn't! Why must gov't be run on a suspect business model? Look at the problems that idea is causing in our society. I really dislike the extent the neo-con ideology has insinuated its vocabulary into our discourse and its disgusting insidiousness. I'm bored by their narrow, short term, self-interested 'world view'.

redriver girl,
It is a fact government coffers to fund non-profits are shrinking and social enterprise will one way to make up for that.
What is wrong with an initiative that makes a profit to further the socieities goals while at the same time providing job training etc.
In my case starting a used building material/household goods retail store that diverts re-useable goods from the landfill, while at the same time teaching a variety of job skills. Any profits will go towards furthering the societies goals which include safe/affordable housing. A side benefit of this is that those looking to improve their living situation get a boost to their self esteem knowing they are part of a team that is not relying on any form of government subsidy, which is a positive change for most.

Redriver girl, you write "do we as taxpayers recognize there are social ills that collectively we need to address and have decided to pool some of our money to address these problems".
That is the basis of the problem in our society. Way back in time when a community was a true community people helped one another. I'll give you an example, when someone died in a tradgedy and the family needed support the community rallied around them, today grief counsellors would be called in to do the work the community used to do and taxpayers pay for it.
So we have a trade-off, rather than be involved in volunteering in the community most people would rather not and so tax dollars have to be spent for services to help those less fortunate.
The problem is there are more non-profits than ever vying for government dollars and there aren't enough to go around. Alternative options are needed and thus social enterprise can be one of the answers to the problem.

The only reason there 'isn't enough money to go around' is because it is a policy decision. That is all.

There is enough money, but the people who have deceived the public (ie Campbell and his great socialist speeches before the election) and who are in power right now have different priorities.

There is nothing wrong in my view of what you are doing Barryjo. In fact it sounds great and innovative. Good for you. I'm sure you are helping a lot of people and your community.

Redriver, we are helping people in the community at large, not just "our" community. Every addict has parents, siblings or children and they are all affected, not to mention the crimes that most addicts are involved in to get drugs affects many outside "our community".
We now live in a global village, so to speak and inclusion rather than exclusion by creating different communities for evry class or lifestyle is the answer.

I certainley don't have any solutions to the DTES, however here are some observations about living in Vancouver. It's dark, grey and rains alot. DEPRESSION. There isn't a sense of community as many people not living in overly expensive areas are somewhat transient, eg. students, & service industry workers. Poverty, addiction and homelessness are normalized through constant exposure to it. I found that addictive lifestyles are hard to escape as it gives a sense of community. Vancouver's somewhat warm although dark weather attracts marginalized people from across canada as living outside is indeed possible (read wet and miserable). What if the DTES didn't exist as a ghetto? Where would these people live? Would the residents shift north as a whole or would they disperse into other areas? Would it be easier to help these people if they weren't concentrated with others in similar situations where destitution was normalized. If there was a sense of hope in living, surely it would help many to seek out better lifestyles. A little sunshine goes a long way. Let's send them all to mexico for a vacation instead of leaving them into a pit of dark marginalization akin to the movie "blade runner". Just a thought

Redriver:

"Yammer, if the best you can do is attack my grammar and spelling, your argument is woefully inadequate."

No, my best shot was the criticism of your "right to stay in neighbourhood" argument. To condense your position, you believe that everyone has the right to stay in any given locale, regardless of funds to purchase the opportunity to do so. I pointed out that there are senior and junior rights, and invited you to make a Charter argument.

Instead you changed the subject, if indeed you understood it.

TONIB,
You are partially right, the warm weather does attract many from accross Canada as sleeping outside is better here than Edmonton or Montreal in the dead of winter.
But the lure of cheap, powerful drugs coupled with all of our measures such as safe injection sites, needle exchanges, free heroin programs etc. attracts addicts to Vancouver like pilgrims to Mecca.
Drive down the alleys and talk to some addicts, the ones from out of town and province will tell you the same thing.
As for the safe injection site, if you think it works well drive down the alley behind it when it is OPEN and you will see people shooting up and syringes all over. What a waste of money. Since last year when it opened the provincial percentage for overdose deaths declined by 8 percent while they were up by 28 percent in Vancouver. Money well spent, I think not.

Well, Yammer, you are correct. I can not make a 'charter argument' for the belief that people shouldn't be exiled from the neighbourhoods they were born into because other people choose to exploit and manipulate markets. (including flipping but also from profiting from slum rentals while waiting for the market to rise etc) I believe all people need to have responsibility to their communities, not just poor people. I remember a time when local businesses swept their sidewalks. Just a very tiny example of business/personal responsibility. You are right, from what you wrote, I certainly did not discern that you were inviting me to make a charter argument. Yammer, an ad hominem does not enhance your position. In fact, it clouds your argument and makes me less inclined to read your posts or to respond in any way, including thinking about your points.

Yes, Barryjo, I agree we live in a wider community. Personally, I believe in integrated communities, schools etc. I do not believe in ghettos/enclaves that are derived either from poverty and/or the fear of poverty.

Tonib- funny you should mention the lack of community. I just got back from walking my dog to a nearby park (at 10pm) and though for about 20 minutes we were alone, shortly Tony and his dog Chuckie showed up, then China and her owner. As the three dogs chased each other in circles (one aged 2, one 6 and mine 7), the three of us, an East Indian man, a black man and a white woman, who on any other night and without our pets would probably have walked past each other without so much as a glance, stood and chatted and laughed about things going on in our neighbourhood, all in all had a good time. Best sense of community I experienced all day.

redrivergirl:

Except of course for the British Properties...... :~)
I mean, there HAS to be a limit to these things. Right? I mean, we can't have light industry there, right? Where the owners of factories actually might have to breathe the fumes........

Right on Rick W
These Crème da la Crème are to good to pay taxes & their Gated British Properties to protect them from us commoners. We bust our asses to try & make a decent living but we are the law abiding working poor.
My kid is working 2 jobs & still can't afford a place to live. Starting @ $750. for a basement suite w/no fire exit, death traps.
(does somebody have to die before our so called Democratic system does anything?)
How many others w/similar stories & with welfare being denied so many people after Campbell & his lap dogs made those disgusting changes. Maybe he is in contempt of the Human Rights Charter?
Hope I haven't strayed too much.