mbjc88- Let's see if you can get it straight. This so called offer was imposed by telus which precipitated this dispute. telus will not- repeat not say what will happen if the "offer" went to a vote and it were turned down. This "offer" is over 150 pages long with contract wording that lays out employment terms and conditions, remuneration, layoff provisions etc etc. It was individually mailed out to each employee with no consultation with the TWU's bargaining committee. telus is saying "trust us"- sign it. I have made this challenge before but so far no takers. If a single non-telus lawyer will go on record and state that it is ok to sign such a document without representation or advice from anyone other than the party making the offer then I will sign it. If you would, then I would love to negotiate a real estate deal with you. The name sucker comes to mind.

I found an old phonebill behind by frig while remodelling. It was from the early 90's and the cost per minute to Toronto was 91 cents. I pay twenty bucks now for unlimited north american coverage, which for me works out to less than a penny a minute.

I am in the industry as a reseller and it is boom and bust, but fun. The problem is that with booms in a Tier One carrier, everyone, including management, ratchets up the fat in their package, and then when the industry drops off a cliff with new technologies and competitors, everyone is loath to give anything up. Well guess what, they have no choice. I would urge the union leadership to read Buzz Hargrove's editorial in yesterday's National Post. He editorialized in a lucid and restrained way that unions need to reflect the realities of the market, and in order not be excluded, be a rational part of the solution. The TWU are right to attempt to minimize their losses, but the energy spent on self destructive goonery is better used in productive discussions. If the employer is an enemy, start up your own telco and try to make it work!

david- The employer as you put it is not the enemy. Ask yourself when the last dispute was with BC Tel/telus. It was in 1980- that's a quarter of a century ago. Contracts negotiated and signed without dispute. The TWU, if you care to look at it's history was one of the first to understand the need for change due to technology- as employees we lived it every day. This one is a throwback to the 40's. Some senior management wish to go to non binding arbitration to settle this thing but the ego masquerading as a ceo has other plans. The spin that telus needs "flexibility" to compete is wearing thin. Check out the rates of return and EBITDA for telus under the "restrictive" contract. Ask yourself as to who's being inflexible.

The union folks aren't the goons here; did you not read the article? Security guards hired by Telus are allegedly assaulting picketers and that's the union's fault?

I have read that the union will park out front of employee's houses and honk early in the morning, follow the workers around and disrupt their lunches etc. But you're right, both sides are culpable. Telus must feel emboldened since their purchase of AGT. I foresee a future where they are just wholesaling data and voice services in BC, and run a bare minimum of technical support here, with all the admin, support and finance in Alberta. It just looks very acrimonious and destructive here in BC.

Telus realizes that the days of hard-line phone companies are numbered. Seems like the union doesn't. Anybody who works for Telus in the old technology sector is doomed. If they're less than 50 years old, they should start looking at their educational options before it's too late.

david- You're only half right about the admin, tech support etc- they will ship it to the Phillipine and India like they are doing now. Telus has said they will stop once the dispute is over but refuse to put it in writing so be careful what you eat cause it isn't chocolate.

martin- Those of us who work there know more than anybody that the technology must change- no one disputes that-especially the union. Take a look south and what was the first thing that failed- the wireless. While wireless is emerging, the land line has it's place also. ADSL for example and all of the new services that piggyback to it still need the wired line. I fail to see how people trying to protect jobs in Canada and within communities in BC and Alberta is a bad thing.

I disagree 100%. The backbone of the Internet, which is the future of technology and commerce, is supported over physical technology provided by telephone companies. Wireless will not replace that for a number of reasons, primarily speed and security. Comments like Martins reminds me of those that predicted the end of the postal service due to email, when if anything, the Internet has brought more activity to the post office in the form of increased trade and commerce (eBay anyone). And agencies like CanadaPost themselves adapted by providing services like ePost.

Telus must adapt surely. But there is still a vital and large role for their industry to play in the next century.

And in the end, regardless, I think that this sort of bad faith bargaining is the cause of the problem. I won't apologize for the union or the corporation and no one else should either. What should be demanded is that they be allowed to bargain in good faith for a solution. Locking one party out is not acceptable.

Don't forget that Telus is a result of investments made by Crown corporations BC Tel, and Telus. Despite privatization, I believe that the citizens of western Canada still have a right to expect that we can recieve positive benefits from those investments, in the form of a company that provides good paying jobs and good service for the members of our communities. I think this is a small thing to ask in light of the massive profits this company is generating for its shareholders.

Tbarnston:

BC Tel was never a crown corporation. From its roots as the Vernon and Nelson Telephone Company to its present entity known as TELUS, BC TEL was always a private company.

AGT, on the other hand, was at one time a government corporation.

In addition to the above comment, I would like to add that Telus clearly does not share my view that is has the repsonsiblity to treat its customers and the community with respect.

This is from http://www.gateway.ualberta.ca/view.php?aid=4793
"A day after the work stoppage began, the Canada Industrial Relations Board...found Telus guilty of bargaining in bad faith, influencing the collective bargaining process and interfering in the administration of a trade union."

That sums it up right there.

The The:

I stand corrected.

Tbarnston- Thank you for having the intelligence to recognise the info in your post- Some additional info is that since telus finally admitted that they were indeed shipping calls to India and the Phillipines the info has been supplied that the wage in Manila is $220/mo- That may seem like a lot in Manila- I don't know but I do know that since telus has reported record profits(in spite of the "restrictive" contract that they are trying to replace) their rates they charge their subscribers in BC and AB that they must justify to the CRTC, are based on wage rates in Canada. Who's being greedy now?

hunter--

It is not a bad thing.

Thanks for your vigorous and well reasoned defense of the union's position.

Here's what the Economist said recently in its article "How the Internet killed the phone business":

It is now no longer a question of whether VOIP will wipe out traditional telephony, but a question of how quickly it will do so. People in the industry are already talking about the day, perhaps only five years away, when telephony will be a free service offered as part of a bundle of services as an incentive to buy other things such as broadband access or pay-TV services. VOIP, in short, is completely reshaping the telecoms landscape. And that is why so many people have been making such a fuss over Skype—a small company, yes, but one that symbolises a massive shift for a trillion-dollar industry.

Now I know many Tyee readers set their hair on fire over the Economist's ideology, but this isn't a question of ideology unless one is a luddite. This is a debate over the future of technology. All the signs point to the death of old-line monolpolistic phone companies with featherbedded payrolls.

Thank you for this update.

What really makes my day is reading the posts from our wacky rightwinger contingent.

None of them appear to have any real understanding about unions or about the collective bargaining process, yet all can preach like born again christian fundamentalist politicians with deep Texas accents.

MBJC88, get back onto that turnip truck. Human resource issues appear a bit too complicated for you.

David's "I have read..." is a classic piece of dirt. Start a rumour and just leave it and it may fester.
Martin, well Martin's his usual "the sky's falling" cheerfulness. Why are all these anti-worker types so pessimistic?

Better still, why do they sound so bitter?

"It was individually mailed out to each employee with no consultation with the TWU's bargaining committee."

The union belong to took this kind of action by my employer to the LRB and won their grievance. I hope TWU does the same.

Martin- As usual those of your ilk try and use some obscure word to drive home the point. I get a chuckle when "luddite" is used as a synonym for all those opposed to change. The Luddites, who came into prominence during the Industrial Revolution were not the knuckle dragging destroy the machine types that you seem to think . They were a group that when the technology of the day began to have an impact, their first response to the mill owners and such was what the impact would be on their lives. In the response of the times the answer was a not so polite get back to work and never mind. Thus the beginnings of the Trade Union movement. It was only when they were given this response that they took the action that gave the incorrect meaning we have today. How interesting that lazy reporters and columnists use the term and have no idea what they are saying. More interesting is how things have not changed all that much re employer response to legitimate concerns.

Stump- The CIRB has found telus to be guilty of bargaining in bad faith and interfering with the operation of a trade union(see Tbarnston's post) on three occasions but refuses to sanction telus. The CIRB is a body appointed by Parliament. telus ignores rulings with arrogance aplenty- I'm beginning to wonder what role Parliament has to play anymore.

An electrical outlet can be wireless internet link.
Matsushita in Japan has invented a new chip.
Attach this device to any standard electrical outlet and all you have to do is plug in your computer and you get broadband network.
It provides 170 megabits per second, which is way faster than Ethernet cables.
It's expected to cost $20.00 per month for internet service. Telus is about $40.00 per month.
Are you listening TWU members ?

To mbjc88's post at the top. I am a locked-out employee of Telus experiencing my first labour dispute. There was a time I would have probably identified with your 'democratic' comments. I'm sure your sentiments are shared by many others and are ones that Telus loves to promote. Notions of 'free speech', 'the vote', 'individual rights' etc. all strike a deep emotional chord in all of us that have enjoyed living in a free society. However, these freedoms all have boundaries which have generaly been agreed too by our collective society. (Free speech does not entitle you to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater because you feel like yelling it)

Now, in regards to our present labour dispute; the TWU union was voted in by Alberta members over their old union the IBEW; rules of conduct at union meetings allow members to speak freely of their concerns/displeasure on any union business; any member in good standing can run for office within the executive; a bargaining committee dedicated to detailed attention to contract language is elected to negotiate in my best interest; the union took a strike VOTE in Feb. '04 (86% in favour) because of company intransigence. You now imply an undemocratic institution because the company cannot do a short circuit around our bargaining committee and force a vote on their offer? What, then, is the point of having a bargaining committe? Let me put it this way. If you don't like, or did'nt vote for, the currently elected government, do you simply 'opt out' in being a Canadian citizen? Do you declare yourself to be 'not bound' by the rules and obligations within our society? (Of course you will still expect to enjoy the benefits of said citizenzhip)

It makes me quite angry when I hear Mr. Entwhistle say that many members in Alberta are 'voting' with their feet. This comment suggests that there actually is some sort of vote to be taken. There is none. The fight is on, and if you carry a union card, you are on the union side. If the union says you're on the street, then you are on the street. Sorry if this offends the 'freedom lover' in you but this is how battles are fought. Solidarity is 95% of the union's (and most other institution's) strength. If you disagree with the union, that's fine. Take it up at your next local's meeting. Run for office. But do not cross.

In your post you say, "Yay, for Albertans who can think and act freely and aren't intimidated like sheep." (I assume in reference to those individuals crossing the picket lines) Bravo for the rugged individualist. I wonder though, would you applaud this conduct if you were shoulder to shoulder with these people on a battlefied with the huns pouring over the horizon and they decided to 'vote with their feet' and head for the hills?

Do we really want to keep middle class jobs here in Canada?

If so, I heartily applaud the TWU's efforts to negotiate a good contract for its members.

And a formidable task it is. They are up against rapidly accelerating technological change, the Telus CEO's ego and his toadies, the Labour Minister’s impotence and the corporate-lackey media.

Let’s hope the current negotiations prove fruitful! Otherwise, I suggest we further prepare ourselves for the seemingly inevitable erosion of the middle class.

CIRE- This is a constant acronym when this troll gets going- Coalition to ignore ron erwin

With the jobs gone, who can afford $20.00 per month. Perhaps the workers in Manilla, with their university training, can outsource some of the work to Canada.

I got my picture taken by picketers when I walked by the Telus building on Robson. And I overheard a violent reference about jamming something down a scab's throat. It was pretty nasty, I don't walk past there anymore.

Real concern about the potential to move jobs to Manila - how can Telus position this as anything good?

However, there seems to be a belief that Telus is raking in the profits based on their wireline business and the old contract - totally untrue. All their profit - ALL their profit - comes from wireless.

Jeez, Ron Erwin is making a good point!

The phone business is in deep doo doo. Forget about having a great contract -- they's ain't going to be any more work of this nature. They are in the same situation as the Pony Express.

Just got this in an e-mail. The source is usually trustable.

The Government of Canada attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation Canada Post will be attempting to bilk email
users out of "alternate postage fees".

Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP.

Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year,

And then, a couple of mails further in, I get this:

"Sorry Folks! It's a hoax apparently, and one which has been around for a while. Got fooled, but really, in a Gordo and Bush world, the sensation that such things inspire is an all-too familiar experience! Cheers,....."

Oh well

Sorry Scylla:
That -- over regulation -- is something I would expect in an NDP world.

Hoax.

That was interesting. Someone propagates a totally dumb, unbelievable and unworkable lie and then subtly shifts some of the blame to Gordo and Bush.

"Stump- The CIRB has found telus to be guilty of bargaining in bad faith and interfering with the operation of a trade union(see Tbarnston's post) on three occasions but refuses to sanction telus."

Oops, sorry I missed the earlier post on the subject. Interestingly enough, the CIRB didn't penalize the company I work for either. But, boy, did they wag their finger extra hard at them!

The problem I have with that video is that it does NOT show the start of the altercation. I would love to see what both sides did to start that catfight. I heard a rumor that the picketers were attempting to damage the building but I don't know for sure as I wasn't at that site when it happened.

scyllaa' are you okay ?

ppc7400, you represent one of the lowest life forms still slithering around in the mire.

In fact, if a good trade unionist were to tear a scab away from his body he/she would be best advised to cover the cleansed spot immediately with a sterile gauze to ensure that your type doesn't cause an infection.

Tell me ppc7400, are you a Telus management type, a goon hired as "security" by Telus, or a bitter and twisted sort who worries someone might get something you will never achieve?

One thing is for sure, you are a cowardly little creep as displayed by you actions above.

Yammer' Pony Express, that's a good analogy, but how about buggywhips.
These TWU people are living in a dream world from 20 years ago.

Mbjc88, no democratic vote anywhere is ever given to the people without it being thouroghly reviewed by the peoples representatives. Noone gets to vote on who wants to lead the country or the issues facing the people, the candidates and issues are picked for you by the party you back. Issues that canadians think are important don't get voted on either by the people unless the party deems it necessary.
The bargaining unit represents the union at the table and will bring a contract to the workers to vote on when the union representatives at the table decide it is worthy of a vote because, unfortunately, many people are dazzled by the glizt and glam of the offer and don't see the bait and switch hidden in the offer.
Gord, the Alberta workers didn't vote in the TWU over the IBEW, they were outvoted on which union would represent them as they had fewer members than the twu. There was a lot of bitterness over that for a while and I believe it is still a point of issue with some Albertan workers.
As for me, I don't see what the bad side of employing more Canadians in good paying jobs is. So what if the company can make more money if it puts jobs in foreign countries? The money saved doesn't go to making Canadians better off whether they are employees or customers. It is just more money in the pockets of the people running the show. Hey, we just improved our profit margins 15%. I can afford a bigger yaght. Promotions all around!

"The bargaining unit represents the union at the table and will bring a contract to the workers to vote on when the union representatives at the table decide it is worthy of a vote because, unfortunately, many people are dazzled by the glizt and glam of the offer and don't see the bait and switch hidden in the offer."

So true. Companies love it when the workers start in-fighting. They know that once solidarity is broken it's very easy to get a the deal they (the company) wants signed.

You'll notice that the company reps are always presenting a united front. Unfortunately, unions suffer from back-seat drivers and nay-sayers, who, despite not being present at the bargaining table, think they know better than those who are.

Whereto.
You're right. The vote over which union would represent us was across both provinces and not by Alberta alone. My mistake. However, I feel I must reply to your comments over 'bitterness' and 'still a point of issue with some Albertan workers'.

I believe the percent in favour of TWU was around 78%. Even if every B.C. member voted TWU and every Alta. member member voted IBEW, you could'nt get that 78%. It would seem that at least some Alta. members voted TWU. I'm not trying to be a nitpick or criticize the IBEW or in some way disparage Alberta members. In fact, I can readily see how a member in Alta. might feel like he somehow did'nt count. However, lacking the powers to guarantee a perfectly fair world, the best I/we can do is have a 'majority rules' vote. It may not be perfect (I'm sure most westerners, including Alberta, can relate to having our federal government always elected by Ontario and Quebec) but its the best we've got. Perhaps I'm rambling on a bit here, but your above comments appear to have a slight ring of 'justification' for Albertans to cross. In no way whatsoever is anyone's 'bitterness' or 'point of issue' a justification for crossing the picket line. If IBEW represented me and called for me to walk out, then I am out. Period. I can take whatever bitterness I may have to my union meeting. Albertan's and British Columbians are under one collective roof now and staying together is the only way to even try and make gains, or perhaps even to just hold our ground. Divide (for any reason), and we are conquered. (See the post by Stump immediately after yours. Read the second paragraph)

Sorry but anyone on the Telus side of this dispute (aka Ron Irwin and others) should be tarred and feathered. This dispute should get ugly. All unions should go out to the streets. Show these board room pricks what their made off, every day I drive by the picket and see these workers pacing rain and shine, sad faces as their jobs are being outsourced to the 3rd world. I wonder how many right wing pricks can compete with 20 dollars a day. Maybe the jobs can come this way to, I can see it, companies getting visas for temp oversees workers coming over to earn peanuts.

Telus is making cash hand over fist, they just want more and they are taking this stand. I say take to to them. Rallies , service cuts, protest, be creative. Take them down, take back the corporate charter , we built the lines, we own them for the public good not for some greedy shareholders to do as they wish. Anyway, just my 2 cents,
enough is enough.

"It's fairly intimidating for our members to be constantly filmed," said Massy. "It's predominantly females on the picket line."

Hypocrite of the largest kind. He says this while picketers are filming and snapping photos of those crossing the picket line. I guess intimidation is ok so long as the TWU is the one being the bully.

hey monster

How much filming do the picketers do? They do try to get pictures of scabs crossing the line. AFI does the filming. Constant, incessant filming. The same AFI that is constantly trying to provoke incidents with the picketers in order to get them arrested. They don't identify themselves, in fact one today told us that he was a TELUS manager. Too bad for him one of the picketers recognized his face. These are the goons that TELUS hired to 'protect their assets'.

One thing is for sure, you are a cowardly little creep as displayed by you actions above.

I don't work for Telus at all. My cousin, who I support, is on the picket line in Burnaby though and I find it sad that the picketers have lost sight of why they are out on the street. Why havent' the picketers actually done something constructive to try get this crap all sorted out instead of resorting to such pathetic displays of namecalling and insults that most haven't seen since kindergarten. I try to look at this with an open mind and hope that there are some mature adults out there that want to get this problem resolved. Plus both sides are coughing up so much propoganda to the extent that it's hard to see where the facts end and the BS starts. That is the problem I had with the incomplete video clip that was posted by the union. Granted AFI may have been excessive in what they did but I find it difficult to believe that AFI'd just swarm one picketer out of the group if they were just walking by picketing.

Stuart: the "lines" are owned by the shareholders who paid for them. And they have a right to a reasonable return on their investment. If you want to own them, you can buy shares like anyone else. That's the greatest thing about our free enterprise democracy. Opportunities are available to anyone who works hard and makes sensible choices in life.

commentor: Ron Erwinposted: 11 Hours Ago
Yammer' Pony Express, that's a good analogy, but how about buggywhips.
These TWU people are living in a dream world from 20 years ago.

Do you ever say anything different? Now I definitely know that you are telus ilk. You have posted similar in another thread the one on telus idol. The same propaganda keeps spewing out it is like a broken record. You bore me erwin. Just so you all know those of you who are not with telas there has been a constant and I must admit consistant barage of propaganda from the management at telus, as we are pretty sure they were all drinking the same beverage in order to come up with the similar rantings. Things like "the union is out dated", "what has your union done for you?" "why don't you let the people on the inside vote?" etc. etc. etc. It is getting to the point now that it is not worth the effort to type the rebuttals to these same quotes over and over and over. Like I said erwin you are boring and your propaganda machine and telus spin is wearing very thin.

commentor: Ron Erwinposted: 11 Hours Ago
Yammer' Pony Express, that's a good analogy, but how about buggywhips.
These TWU people are living in a dream world from 20 years ago.

Do you ever say anything different? Now I definitely know that you are telus ilk. You have posted similar in another thread the one on telus idol. The same propaganda keeps spewing out it is like a broken record. You bore me erwin. Just so you all know, those of you who are not with telas, there has been a constant and I must admit consistant barrage of propaganda from the management at telus, as we are pretty sure they were all drinking the same beverage, in order to come up with the similar rantings. Things like "the union is out dated", "what has your union done for you?" "why don't you let the people on the inside vote?" etc. etc. etc. It is getting to the point now that it is not worth the effort to type the rebuttals to these same quotes over and over and over. Like I said erwin you are boring and your propaganda machine and telus spin is wearing very thin. These good people should not really be subjected to the propaganda as well, however having thus said that, fill your boots erwin the people are pretty intelligent here and will figure it out soon enough.

commentor: Ron Erwinposted: 11 Hours Ago
Yammer' Pony Express, that's a good analogy, but how about buggywhips.
These TWU people are living in a dream world from 20 years ago.

Do you ever say anything different? Now I definitely know that you are telus ilk. You have posted similar in another thread the one on telus idol. The same propaganda keeps spewing out it is like a broken record. You bore me erwin. Just so you all know, those of you who are not with telas, there has been a constant and I must admit consistant barrage of propaganda from the management at telus, as we are pretty sure they were all drinking the same beverage, in order to come up with the similar rantings. Things like "the union is out dated", "what has your union done for you?" "why don't you let the people on the inside vote?" etc. etc. etc. It is getting to the point now that it is not worth the effort to type the rebuttals to these same quotes over and over and over. Like I said erwin you are boring and your propaganda machine and telus spin is wearing very thin. These good people should not really be subjected to the propaganda as well, however having thus said that, fill your boots erwin the people are pretty intelligent here and will figure it out soon enough. Here is the link to check it out and see how erwin repeats himself.

http://www.thetyee.ca/News/2005/08/21/TelusIdol/

Martin; I am both an employee and a shareholder. It bothers me how our assets have been sold off and the infrastructure has been allow to deteriorate. Decisions being made by this executive team are short sighted and irresponsible. A bureaucracy has formed around the current CEO that would make a government official giggle. Millions of dollars are wasted and middle management uses CYA as its credo. This has absolutely nothing to do with the TWU or the current contract. Nothing this ceo has done is creative or farsighted. His policies are based on an antiquated
ideology that should have disappeared years ago. We can complete in today's market if only there was someone could recognize the energy and skill sets that exist within our organization today. He has an iron clad contract with built in golden parachutes. All I want is a committment on telus' part. By the way, the TWU is my bargining agent. I pay them to make sure the "t's" are crossed and the "i's" dotted.

Google (according to the nyt) has offered to make the city of san francisco an internet free zone, as part of a city sponsored TechConnect program.

Nothing demonstrates better the need for some real competition in this portion of the market. The consumer can be held hostage by both the Company and the union. Over the years the CRTC has taken the aproach to limit the amount and types of competition.

government regulation, which insisted on full geographic service, at the expense of competition, was a good thing. appropriate to its time.

Martin,

Like investing in World com or Nortel perhaps? Hard sell for me.

Gord,

My point was not meant to condone crossing the picket line, I feel that if you are in a union, you support it.
I felt your post did not show that while the TWU did recieve the majority vote, it was not without opposition.
Telus has played on this from the start. When the TWU was voted in, there were rumors floating around almost immediately that Darren Entwistle and said if this was the IBEW contract we were starting with, he would have signed it immediately, further irking the people who backed thier old union.

ppc7400, I'm sure your cousin appreciates whatever support he can get on the picketline or at home, but pushing anti-union rumours as you did in your earlier post certainly doesn't enhance his chances of getting back to work with a decent collective agreement.

In fact, your reply that "picketers have lost sight of why they are out on the street", is yet another slap at the union side, while pretending to give a crap about the workers'
situation.

The picketers know why they are on the street,
because they were locked out by Telus after their bargaining team told Telus to stuff its final offer (demand).

I take it, the bargaining team took that stance because: 1.Telus used one of the most provocative weapons it could to send the "final offer", and (2), that offer was a crock meant to divide the union membership rather than set the conditions for asettlement.

Perhaps you are too wrapped up in your cousin's plight and missed the subtleties but when an employer ignores a union and attempts to bargain directly with the workers, it signals it isn't interested in reaching a collective agreement.

Instead it's saying "screw you, take it or leave it, this is war."

2. The final offer was never meant as a serious proposal for anyone other than those who know absolutely nothing about collective bargaining.

Perhaps the idea that picketers are vocals and even rowdy at times frightens you. It shouldn't and likely doesn't, although it does give you sort of a shallow excuse to point fingers at them.

As bad as things may appear to you on the picketline, you ought to grasp the reality that angry workers could do a lot more than grmble and blow off steam.

After all they have a direct stake in the final outcome of this.

Can you say the same thing about the hired goons who are there only as long as they or others can keep fanning those flames of discontent.

Do your cousin a big favour and let his or her bargaining team look after their members' needs.

They understand the issue better than you. Of course that comment is based on the assumption you aren't simply conjurring up your" cousin" as a handy prop with which to attack the TWU.

Tell me it ain't so.

Joe: given your views, you are a hypocrite for owning Telus shares. You should sell them immediately. Someone should only own shares in companies they approve of. Otherwise how can you look at yourself in the mirror that you are profiting off of something you feel so badly about. Come on, do the right thing. Contact an investment dealer and tell her/him to "sell".

Martin; You are right. I did buy shares in a company that I once believed in. Hopefully that company will re-emerge and we can move forward to an enterprise that balances profit with social responsibility. If this fails to happen, my sell order is a mouse click away. At yesterday's close I may break even.

After all they have a direct stake in the final outcome of this.

I know they could do a lot more but they don't *appear* to be doing anything that would be considered productive. After 2 months of picketing you'd think that a counter offer could have been tabled.

So what exactly does the union want? More pay? More benefits? Job security? If you choose job security just remember that it doesn't exist anymore. Very very few workplaces offer it and those that do, offer it in a limited fashion. The auto workers are a good example. For example Ford's recent 3 year contract has layoffs in it and only a meager 1.4% pay increase, and the CAW is one of the most powerful unions in the country. If the CAW can't prevent layoffs or restructuring, what chance does the TWU have?

"It's expected to cost $20.00 per month for internet service. Telus is about $40.00 per month.
Are you listening TWU members ?"

And when that technology arrives, imagine how many people will want it, and how many installers they'll need to go and do the work. Maybe it's not the deathknell of anyone or anything.

As to whether you have to approve of a company to own their shares... some people buy shares in companies whose policies they specifically disagree with, so that they can voice their concerns and have a vote.

Anyway, being chastised by free-market/capitalism advocates for owning shares in profitable companies strikes me as pretty damn funny.

Unions have outgrown their usefulness. People should have the coice to work for Bangladeshi wages or, well..say Philipino wages. Yeah. That's it. Besides, high labour costs will drive business investment from Gordo's trough, er,.. BC.. I can plug my finger into a wall socket and log on to freedominions. At 28.8 baud. A knowledge of BASIC helps. goto line 150. Can anyone please tell me what CIRE stands for? Huh?

What's even funnier, Stump, is seeing these jerks trumpet "Free Enterprise". When was the last time you heard of any non-management shareholders having any influence at a shareholders meeting?

If the TWU executive ran the Union as autocratically as Entwhistle and his gang run Telus, you can be sure the media would be frothing at the mouth.

Wrong Earwig,

Yes. It's an attempt by a few posters to have all join in ostracizing the scourge, Ron Erwin. Something-or-other to Ignore Ron Erwin (CIRE)

I would never join such a group, no matter how objectionable a poster, or his rants - preferring to use my scroll feature.

One of the great freedoms of the Web is the freedom to be wrong and/or to make a total a*s of oneself.

I intend to continue to make full use of that freedom while according the same - as much as is within my power - to others. ;-)

Say, since I know he seeks notoriety, your name isn't really, Ron Erwin....is it?

commentor: Wrong Earwig posted: 16 Hours Ago
Unions have outgrown their usefulness. People should have the coice to work for Bangladeshi wages or, well..say Philipino wages. Yeah. That's it. Besides, high labour costs will drive business investment from Gordo's trough, er,.. BC.. I can plug my finger into a wall socket and log on to freedominions. At 28.8 baud. A knowledge of BASIC helps. go to line 150. Can anyone please tell me what CIRE stands for? Huh?

Unions have outgrown their usefulness? Are you on crack? The Unions are needed more now than they ever have been. We now have child labour running wild in many countries and we are subcontracting by employers who employ them us as Canadians are condoning this behavior. So in Japan a very productive nation, the CEO's make approximately 10 times the amount of the average workers and in Canada and the US they make approximately 100 times or more of the average worker can this really be justified? BTW if we are all on lower wages what will happen to any disposable income will it not be non existent? Do you think that the average business will now lower their prices because there is less disposable income around? So where will this leave the average entrepreneurial small business? I guess they will be out of business soon and only the large corporations will be left for all to deal with, boy the customer service will be real great then won't it? Big business has thrown out so much propaganda, that most of you are buying the load of crap that they will not be profitable in today's business climate because of the competition. Telus made 1 billion dollars in NET PROFIT (on the backs of the customers in BC, AB and some in eastern Canada)in the past 2 years based on the supposed outdated collective agreement with the TWU now just who in the fork helped them make this kind of profit? I work in Mobility on the team that "saves" accounts for telus I personally know how many accounts I saved and there were 140 members doing the same thing in my department in Calgary mobility. BTW these departments are called Loyalty and Retention and are staffed in the landline as well. We are paid to keep the customers, and we do a good job. The churn rate in Telus Mobility is 1.4% and you can read that anywhere and it is the lowest in NORTH AMERICA.

CIRB means Canadian Industrial Relations Board it is under federal jurisdiction. And next time do your own research because as a person that does not agree with Unions you sure are lazy. You will need these skills as you will be working for less wages and if the Unions are all gone then you will have no one to fight for you and therefore you will be needing at that time to research and start your own Union in the future.

"Free Enterprise"

Telus-style free enterprise, or BC Ferries free-enterprise? Haha. Not very enterprising, hardly free for captive customers.

Either give us the benefits/disadvantages of free enterprise, or the benefits/disadvantages of a gov't watchdogged monopoly, but the disadvantages of both in a single package seems to be our lot these days.

skeptikool
By using your scroll feature you are doing exactly what CIRE is advocating. You are ignoring ronny. I think that CIRE has every right to ignore him if they so choose. It's a democracy. Personaly I find his rants rather amusing.

Is it possible for all of us to stand back for a moment? This is more than union vs anti-union, or free enterprise against a state controlled economy. No one in any industry has ever asked a potential customer whether they are union or non union or whether they are "right" or "left" of the political spectrum for the purpose of selling a product or service. Union members of all affiliatitions patronize non union shops and so- called free enterprisers will sell anything to anyone who has the money. We are all hypocritical in our everyday lives. The issue at stake here is what kind of society do we want? Is there any example in modern times that we wish to improve on? In the industrialized nations, the sacrifices of the labour movement in the early 20th century led to the creation of a large middle class, which in turn, purchased products and services from the entrepreneurs. For the most part society florished in many ways. Sadly, we are now progressing towards a two tier class structure which has the potential to lead to social disruption. There are many examples throught recent history which support this view. Let's not go there. Do we have to adapt to changes? Yes. Do we ignore the sacrifices made on our behalf? NO.

In Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky wrote of how he had worked hard to organise the "Back of the Yards", the Chicago meat-packing district.

Seems Italians had gained control of the hiring halls, etc, and were actively practicing favouritism, paycheck kickbacks and so on to favour their ethnic kin to the disadvantage of the Poles, who were being kept to menial, low paying, short-term jobs.

Alinsky organised the Poles, and got the situation fixed.

He writes of coming back twenty years later and having to organise the Negroes who were being victimised in the same way as formerly were the Poles, but this time the Poles themselves were the victimisers !!

This is the predictable result, in my view, of what happens when the teaching of social history is restricted to a Rightist perspective.

Let's just hope that the future regaining of worker's and civil rights won't involve the heads being bashed in that our grand and great grandparents went through.

Martin quotes

"Stuart: the "lines" are owned by the shareholders who paid for them. And they have a right to a reasonable return on their investment."

The Rail lines, Telephone lines and hwy's that move you goods to market, transit systems that carry your employees to work etc etc.

These were all built at public expense, so we "the public" are the shareholders. The infrastructure Telus uses to enrich
itself was built at public expense, the CRTC leases the lines to them to perform a public good and run a business, if the business runs amok and acts in a irresponsible way that harms the public( layoffs and off shoring jobs while making record profits) then they lose the privilege granted to them via the CRTC a public regulatory body, just like the MSM is drunk with power and its right wing doctrinarian. The company has lost its way and needs to have to have its corporate charter revoked, just the challenge would make the shares plummet, many years ago we had Kootenay Tel and other independent locally owned phone companies, it happened in Quebec . Alcan was beginning to pull punches and decided to leave the area, local residents took over the plant and are doing fine.

I am not a union member but enjoy the benefits from those who have went to bat for me for what I enjoy today. Thanks for the working conditions, vac pay, sick pay, regulated hours and protections.

Basically the folks who support Telus and low life aka Ron Irwin, enjoy your chase to the bottom, hey low paid 3rd world workers can always come this way via corp visas, how many of you can compete with $ 200 bucks a month.

Lets start putting pressure of David Emerson and others with an election coming up.

scylla

The conditions are perfect for history to repeat itself. Telus and the government has a callus disregard for the workers. The MSM is to close to power and serves the elite few and their holdings, time has to come to make
a stand. I say the union movement should stick together on this.

Injustice anywhere = injustice everywhere

Stuart, now that you mention David Emerson, here's an entry from Sean Holman's excellent website recently. Look who attended David Emerson's Federal Liberal fundraiser>>>

From the union movement there was British Columbia Federation of Labour president Jim Sinclair and British Columbia and Yukon Territory Building and Construction Trades Council executive director Wayne Peppard. Former top British Columbia bureaucrats John Allen, Lee Doney and Don Wright also showed up. And so did Barrett administration cabinet minister Bob Williams, ex-Vancouver-Fraserview New Democrat MLA Bernie Simpson and 24 hours president and former premier Glen Clark, who was sitting at The Pattison Group's table. Other notables included First Nations Summit executive member Grand Chief Ed John and Chief Stewart Phillip of the British Columbia First Nations Leadership Council, as well as a number of forest industry executives.

Nice to see the likes of Glen Clark, Jim Sinclair and Bob Williams donating to the Federal Liberals. How do your reconcile their and your class-warfare talk when you have leaders like this?

"How do your reconcile their and your class-warfare talk when you have leaders like this?"

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

You've gotta pay to play?

It's a really good restaurant?

There are pragmatists/opportunists of every political stripe?

You'll note that Glen Clark "sat at the Pattison Group's table." I guess if you're boss says you're coming to dinner, you show up and chances are the boss foots the bill.

C'mon Martin. Raise bar a little wouldja? You're make it too easy to poke holes in your pet theories.

Class warfare indeed. There are men and women of honesty and integrity in every income level. There are liars, cheats, and thieves both poor and wealthy. Money, and the amount you have, means nothing, unless it's the diety you worship.

Your boss, not you're boss.

"Nice to see the likes of Glen Clark, Jim Sinclair and Bob Williams donating to the Federal Liberals. How do your reconcile their and your class-warfare talk when you have leaders like this?"

Well you see I live in the real world, where unions and corporations donate money to both political sides in
order to carry favor and have a voice at the table, the unions also donate to the Federal NDP , we have a
minority gov now in Ottawa and the unions are aware of the political situation. Everyone is taking advantage of this
except maybe Stevie Harper LOL, even the Bloc has more power in the house at this time.

Anyway Jim Sinclair going to a $ 200 dinner to have a voice hardly proves anything, yes the union leaders should
come out harder but I am not counting on them, I am counting on the membership and others to take the cause,
for your info Telus was a large donator to the BC Libs almost 50K,

Hey rumor has it that Sean Holman is now being paid via CanWest to run stories, not really a shock , everyone else in BC is basically CanWest Hacks. I guess I can give him credit for now selling out a fast. Now he can write for the Ron Irwin and the Red neck audience. Him and Michael Smyth, Michael Campell and others can enjoy the spoils.

Hey Martin, Ponder this...

If your boss could outsource your job for say 1/100th the cost . Should he/ her .

Ask him/her if your company should be taking the Telus model. And if your job could be shipped off to India
for 20 bucks a day , tell us all how this benefits our communities in general. Your such a compassionate guy ,
you must have good reasons behind your words. Should shareholder value take first priority over the public good.

For example ---- If shareholder value increases over lax environmental standards , should we put harmful chemicals
in the water or the air.

You see the economic model we are using is flawed and needs to be reworked.
Okay ethics 101 is over for today.

Glen Clark, aka Glennocchio, = the great socialist Jimmy Pattison employee. Say no more. Mike Harcourt works for the federal liberals, Dan Miller works for the provincial liberals, and Joy Macphail has married a wealthy producer and is living in lala land. With leaders like that no wonder the lefties are floundering.

From two seats to what is it now, thirty-three in the Prov. legislature? The balance of power in Ottawa. Oh yeah, the Left (idiotic term, but I'll play along) is really floundering N! Your hysterical attempt to frame the debate with illogical, inaccurate statements tying former NDP politicians to the current situation smacks of desperation. Breathe. Relax. Maybe some oxygen to the brain will clear your tinged lack of vision.

Go ahead nemesis with your personal attacks, the NDP national vote was up 100% in the last fed election and up 150% in BC. Jack Layton has taken over the house and its agenda with the fewest seats. The Provincial NDP went from 3 seats to 33, not bad for comebacks.

If anyone is floundering in Canada it's Stevie Harper with the bad hair cut. How about Peter McKay with his dog Jack. Conservatism in Canada is dead. Hey what are you doing here, I thought you would be watching the border with your
reactionary conservative Minuteman, hey where is Ron Irwin LOL, you know he's sitting in the bushes somewhere on the 49th

Mr Entwistle doesn't care what happens to Telus, after the Twu and Telus settle he would probably move on with a 2 year salary severance pay plus bonus. Chances are he wouldn't even be in Canada. But than he doesn't want Canadians to be employed in Canada either.

Is say we revoke the corporate charter, the proceedings alone would make shareholder value plummet and Telus turtle, I have to review it, to see what's involved. anyone know, Telus is just a legal construct that can be un done. They no longer have the moral authority to run the company. If Telus gets away with this immoral behavior than all the others will follow suit. This is an neo con experiment.
The only thing they want is everything, a large global pool of cheap labour , a desperate population willing to
work harder and harder for less and less. That pimp Entwhistle needs a wake up call.

Get the F**ck out of BC and back to redneck land(Alberta)

The goal is to undue all the gains won over the last 30 years, global elites connected to power. If your not mad your not paying attention.

No, No, No. There are good, honest and dedicated people in Alberta and the rest of Canada. Don't let them get to you. Telus' tactics are to manipulate us and drive a wedge between us. Remember the divide and conquer tactic? People like Entwistle have no loyalties or allegiances, except for those that benefit their personal agendas. We must stay clear headed and stay focused. Let's send him back to Cable and Wireless (if they will have him). Bettter still, send him to Shaw.

I've seen this before. When Entwhistle is finished, he will move on, leaving the next CEO to deal with this mess. Telus is enjoying good times now but wait till times change, they will cry when they don't have the expertise to help them out. Then I will say, I told you so.

Oh my, I'm half swayed by Martin's postings, half swayed by Stuart's postings, half swayed by Stump's potings, two/thirds convinced by Joe's posting, and 100% by Chevy's post.

Oh my again, that doesn't add up right, does it?

So I guess all I know for sure is what all those breakfast, lunch and supper meetings with COFI execs did to the IWA. They sure got to know the "enemy" very well indeed.

But what happened with Blair's so-called "Labour" gov't? Or with the "Labour" gov'ts of Australia and New Zealand? We can see this all over the world.

Could the old adage about "power corrupts..." be true? Could our modern Fascists have learned well from Hitler, who coopted the German Labour movement, purging it of all Socialists?

I'm sure all the old Lefties like Tommy Douglas are gyrating in their graves. So sad.

"There have been more than 50 TWU members arrested for violating court injunction orders while picketing. Telus has fired 15 workers for alleged bad behaviour on the picket line. And Telus's hired guards have scuffled with and allegedly injured picketers."
...Didn't you mean TWU members arrested for ALLEGEDLY violating court injunctions?? A typo, I hope, as TWU members have not been found guilty & have primarily been arrested on the sayso of TELUS hired "security" AFI. One woman in New Westminster was arrested because she turned her picket sign over, with one foot over the "line" at the edge of the driveway. The AFI goons who assaulted a TWU picketer with MS, who is obviously unsteady on his feet (they pinned him to the ground, complete with knee to his chest), were not arrested, despite police attending.
Anybody know where exactly the University of Ambergris is located? If you use TELUS' Ambergris call centre in the Philipines, read the fine print, that's where the University Grads are from. No mention of anybody with an actual degree.
As for maturity on the picket line?? After almost 5 years of aggressive tactics in the workplace, many of us are more than happy to vent at those who have frustrated us the most. Anyone scabbing, is putting themselves in the middle of a legal collective bargaining process, delaying it, dragging it out, making it virtually impossible to reach an agreement. They are reaping short term benefits for themselves and will likely be let go when this is over. We will call them exactly what they are. Scabs. And really, just how nice do we have to be to the AFI goons who film everything, all day, every day on the picket line?? Try having every move filmed, every conversation recorded. The implication is supposed to be that we are doing something "not quite right." It's part of their tactics, they are not watching out for our best interests or protecting company property.
As for constructive bargaining?? Our democratically elected Bargaining Team has been trying to do this for five years. The company has underestimated it's own employees as simpletons who will sign on the dotted line, without any legal advise. Would anyone
sign a contract for the purchase of a vehicle, with no mention of the make & model in that contract? Would you buy real estate without the Legal Description of the property embedded in the purchase agreement(also a Legal Contract)? This is all about the Canadian right to Collective Bargaining and signing a legal contract.

13 January 1874
The original Tompkins Square Riot. As unemployed workers demonstrated in New York's Tompkins Square Park, a detachment of mounted police charged into the crowd, beating men, women and children indiscriminately with billy clubs and leaving hundreds of casualties in their wake. Commented Abram Duryee, the Commissioner of Police: "It was the most glorious sight I ever saw..."

I bet Telus management is trying to take us back to 1874, I say the union movement should work together against
this creeping fascism where corporations can make blushing profits while punishing those who helped them get their.
Make Telus the poster boy for corporate greed, any ideas.

"half swayed by Stump's potings"

Haha. How apropos. Normally, a lot of my posts would fall under that category, but I've been taking a break from inhalation lately!

To the point however. Yeah, it appears these people get a taste of power and it's like crack to them. Politics is one arena where the people who really want the work are the ones to keep a close eye on.

Hey, Boann

Just a heads up, their is a way to fight these kind of goons at AFI. And that way is very easy, hit them in the pocket. Let me explain, for years the VPD( Vancouver Police Dept) did whatever they wished and if you had
a complaint it went to the Police Complaints commissioner. They in turn had the VPD investigate itself and what do you know , their was never one valid complaint , never. So the process is flawed, even as you say
this company can assault workers with the police doing nothing to prevent it. SOOOOOOOOOO

What to to.

I must give PIVOT legal the credit for this one. Sue them in small claims, you go to the court house and fill out an application for around 150 bucks, the company gets served and has to show up in court. It is a very simple thing to do, flood small claims with every incident from Telus and AFI, the average settlement is between 5 and 15000 depending on the leval of assault, hey it has worked against the VPD with several settlements being paid. It hits the bottom line and holds power accountable, AFI may find themselves looking
for another contract. SO on the line, stay together , witness and record all incidents and have you day in court.
This also brings much needed media attention to Telus, imagine that girl with MS being interviewed on the MSM Imagine a union rally of say 10,000 plus at the courthouse,

Join AFI today, they are hiring, enjoy our website. Tell us what you think of us via our contact link. LOL, check it out, they brag about having a well trained force of scabs waiting in the wings and how good they are at protecting managers. etc. Hey just an idea, apply and get hired and form
a union and go out on strike. I love it

Just like what happened to sodexo , you know the dirty French company in our hospitals.

http://www.afi-international.com/info.php?code=ca

Very sad days when temp agencies and securtiy firms are are a growth industry.

Stuart' you better whach out, I have sent all your postings to the CIA and George Bush is out looking for you right now. As we speak ( Hedi Fry quote " they are burning crosses up in Prince George as we speak " )
Your days are numbered, get ready for Guitonamo Bay. Toture methods are being designed for you " as we speak "
Gordon Campbell and Steven Harper are sharpening up their blades " as we speak "
You are nor paranoid are you ?
Trust me and I will save you from the capitalist hordes.

It's finally happened , Ron's having the break down we all knew he would. I am not even going to try and get
in your head. Hey shouldn't you be on the 49th with all your minuteman friends and other reactionary conservative
red necks guarding the border. LOL

As far as Bush , Harper and Gordo. Put them together and you get one Forrest Gump .

Only you Ron could fantasize about places such as Guitonamo Bay where no one has due process
under any law. Do you consider Holocausts video's porno Ron,

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
Albert Einstein

Stuart, Albert Einstein aslo said " the hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax " He was a smart man and even he couldn't figure out how your heroes got us into this mess.

My understanding of that quote is that Mr. Einstein was referring to the complexity of filling out the forms. Can you provide any evidence to the contrary Ron? And what mess are you referring to? You're against universality, fine. Move to somewhere where might makes right and money talks to the exclusion of all else and leave the civil society to the rest of us mmmmkay?

Do you have enough? Yes? Then why do you begrudge helping others? I hope I'm never in a lifeboat with you.

nemesis posted:

"Glen Clark, aka Glennocchio, = the great socialist Jimmy Pattison employee. Say no more. Mike Harcourt works for the federal liberals, Dan Miller works for the provincial liberals, and Joy Macphail has married a wealthy producer and is living in lala land. With leaders like that no wonder the lefties are floundering."

Like so many Liberals nemesis is too stupid to realize that anecdotes like this put the lie to his usual labelling of these people as hard core, anti-business socialists.

One thing that may not have been mentioned is that once this dispute is settled, the majority of Telus managers will be quickly fired. For the past few years, the management ranks at Telus have swelled and bulked up enormously. This bloated supervisory component was built up for one, single purpose, to help the company through this inevitable work stoppage once it finally came.

However, once it's over, it's over. These managers who have worked all kinds of overtime to help the company through the lockout will be coming into the office to find a security guard at their desk and all their personal possessions in a box. With a pink skip on top.

Maybe it will be one of the same AFI guards who is presently photographing TWU picketers, and whom the laid off manager cheerfully waves to as he arrives at the plant.

The laid off managers will be shocked and upset that their "loyalty" to the company has been forgotten, and so very quickly. Many will be in tears. But that's their big mistake, for loyalty is essentially a political concept, and this dispute is over economics and productivity, not over polite values like loyalty.

An amended injunction has now been handed down that says the AFI goons are considered to be TELUS employees and cannot harrass, intimidate, etc - same as the wording against the picketers. Finally a judge who didn't buy all the shmooze from the TELUS lawyers.