Yeah, I know. We constantly hear bitching about the $350 million spent on the fast ferries, which incidentally work quite well and are currently operating profitably on the Seattle run. We don't hear any bitching about the $500 million the Liberals shipped to Germany to build the boats to do the job that the fast ferries were supposed to do, before the Liberals sold them for a pittance to get the most political points possible.

The problem with "P3" developements is the supporters can never explain how money is saved. The P3 hospital deal signed in the dying days of the Ontario provincial conservatives had a clause that no details could be revealed. You would think if it was good they would have wanted to shout from the rafters.

In Alberta a number of projects were pursued in anticipation of doing them as P3's but they could not be done better this way so the government did not carry on with them.

I'm not aware of the hospital deal in Ontario, but the P3 401 highway in Toronto has been and is still a big issue there. I've heard that 'confidentiality' rational expressed by Campbell and his inner circle about some of the P3 projects here in B.C. We as taxpayers are paying for them, but we're not allowed to know if we're getting a good deal. It seems that the goal of this government is that we as citizens should own no assets and instead rent them from large corporations.
Ideological Politicians at the extremes of the political spectrum can't seem to see the big picture. They shy away from debate on issues cuz they know in their narrow minds that they are always right.

The following statement made by BC Mary is rather misleading: "No B.C. builders could create the NC." In fact, the construction of the NNC will most likely involve many unionized jobs and that is perhaps, why the NDP candidates in both Nanaimo ridings have been silent on the P3 issue.

Nanaimo's City Council linked up with the American developer, Triarc International, which is a self-described hotel firm. Triarc partners with Marriott to build Marriott hotels and condos. Nanaimo's City Council wanted a conference centre and so the City is getting the "full meal deal".

Once again, the Tyee omits the Green Party's position on P3's.

Ditto the Sex Party's as well Seanorr.

Terrible eh?

I know that P3s can be a complete bust, witness the caper that was the Maple Ridge town core project.

But if the Nanaimo City Council is solidly in favour, and if a referendum supported them (albeit narrowly), what's left for provincial politicians of whatever party to do? Should they say, "I don't like this project, and if our party wins, we will tell the Nanaimo City Council to stop work on this, and if they refuse, we as a provincial government will put them into trusteeship!" Is that how to do things?

P3s fall into the same category of Liberal ignorant arrogance as does salmon farming.

A huge preponderance of evidence indicate that open pen salmon farming is destructive to wild fish stocks. But the Liberals have *one* old
(and coincidentally discredited) study that says otherwise and so they go with that study because open pen salmon farming is the deal they made with their backers in that industry.

An equally huge preponderance of evidence indicates that P3 projects neither save taxpayer dollars nor improve the efficient operations of said P3 institutions but the deal they made with their backers must be kept.

The Liberals will keep any promise, no matter how harmful or deceitful, made to their backers and break any promise made to the citizens of BC.

The citizens can be safely relegated to the category of a "special interest group" after all.

BC Liberal financial backers on the other hand are the lifeblood of heart of the province.

I think this deal smells. But I agree with Budd, its up to the people of Nanaimo and since they seem to have agreed on it then the province shouldn't be involved.

Where exactly is the line in the sand for P3's? Why have any private sector? "Caring, working people" to use one of the favourite self rightous euphemisms of the loony left should be assigned responsibility for all economic activity? That's worked really well elsewhere. Has anyone in your party (NDP) ever considered taking a university level (sorry Carole) economics course, or is that just the purview of the running lackey American dog, tie the widows and orphans to the railway track (BC Rail) capitalists. P3's aren't always the right choice but they aren't inherently evil either.

Actually there are probably more economists among the NDP than among the Libs.

Joy McPhail was certainly a high profile economist who happened to be left-wing.

And what does a "degree in anything" have to do with shit?

The economy is not one of the Black Arts. It is entirely discernible and understandale, at least as much as educated "economcists" do themselves, with their many schools, clashing obscurantist theories and analysis.

Nor is economic analysis either, above different class interpretations of data and phenomena. What the capitalist sees from one side of a wage negotiation, and the economy as a whole, is viewed from an entirely different perspective by the worker on the other side of the equation, even though they are looking at the same social phenomena/ life process.

You are surprised by that? Come over here, we'll give you a course of our own.

Better you tick your piece of "paper" where the sun doesn't shine, Bootlick, for the good it does in understanding anything but mumbo jumbo learned by rote in the great educational Institutes of Capitalism. (Science, my ass!) The likes of yourself and Jim would just have working people believe that outside of yourselves, it is only capitalists and those educated in "sanctioned and approved" institutions of capitalism, that have the right and capability to interpret economic phenomena.

Well, goofs, working people have a particular experience with the economy, no less than do the capitalists, that with a little attention to what goes on around them can make them as expert in economics as certainly capitalists dependant on the advice of their trained seal flunkies, and be right at least about as much of the time as official economists are.

But then, we know, you Brownshirts have trouble tying your shoelaces without taking an "approved" course.

Whereas we say, the best and most effective teacher to a mind capable of understanding, is still real life lived in the real world. At which the Hallowed Halls of Academe scarcely rate at all, especially when it comes to politics and economics.

Though I can see where it would be viewed as indispensible to those who know dickie doo about either subject, really, and suffer feelings of inadequacy.

Further evidence of the ineptitude, inadequacy and state of dependance of the Brownshirt mind-, or rather lack thereof.

And that is NOT to say that educational institutions do not play a useful or important "facilitating" role in society. They do.

They are, however, far from the only avenue by which people are educated and come to know the world around them. Nor is their curriculum or content above being influenced by the ruling ideas and perceptions of the time, which are almost invariably the ideas of the ruling class-, and upon whom they depend for their philanthropy and influence.

Suck it up, Brownshirts. Real life is more complex than your lunatic and partisan ravings.

My goodness Mr Coyote you seem ....upset

&*^^*(^%^%$$$ to you to

you babbling moron

For this P3 deal in Nanaimo did the chamber of commerce launch a huge advertising campaign? Did the local media cheerlead the cause? Against local volunteers? How level was the playing field in this vote for P3?

sparky; be patient with coyote. guys like him will be angry and vindictive as long as they feel that they can blame the gov't and the system for all of their problems. they're actually happiest when a right-wing gov't is in power, as they are assured of an easy target at which to aim their venom.

No question you Fiberal Neocons and sundry other variants of Neoconservatives and fascists are making it easier for the likes of me, hitherto consigned to the wilderness for the better part of my life. :-) I keep telling you that, and trying to warn you, that the influence of ideas such as mine is bound to grow exponentially-, with your assistance and inhumane policies. But you hear only yourselves.

Thank you, so much for that. :-)

We will meet eventually-, likely first on the streets one day. Soon.

It is the right-wing that blames government for their problems thus their desire to dismantle it.

Democratic government is the little guys way of leveling the field against groups that do not have the peoples best interests at heart. Unfortunately global corporations are too effective wooing elected officials.

:-) We agree, finally. Right-wing governments make an easy target.

You appear to be weakening, or "learning", Spinny (In Drag again), dependant on one's perspective, of course, like perhaps you are slowly shifting poltical/ideological sides/perspectives. You are even showing compassion for me, urging patience with me.

You aren't falling in love with me, are you? :-)

Succinct, Mel, and disproportionately perceptive. Study this piece, Sirj and Dead Spark Boy, and enlightenment may yet be yours. Sirj, at least, was unable to plummet the mystery of "the sound of one hand clapping."

Mel, you have my respect, brother.

Regards.

Good write again, Banquos Ghost. Another Brownshirt ass kicker.

In another time and in another world, it was called featherbedding. Remember? Only this is real featherbedding, for global capitalism, intent upon stealing the wages and security of unionized public workers, and receiving "state guaranteed" profits.

Aye, the exact same State they claim to hate so much, when it is used to provide healthcare, secular education and all the other essential services to "the people".

"STOP!" the right wing nutcases and corporate capitalism say, "The state is there to serve our interests, exclusively. Where is your initiative, peons? Why don't you go out and get a job at MacDonald's?"

Indeed, where is THEIR initiative, these P3s, all of them?

What really gets capitalism off its ass quicker then P3s, or any other forms of corporate welfare handouts to the Great Corporate Elites, is a working class with disposable income in its pockets to spend. Then watch them go to work creating products, developing new industries and coming up with catchy marketing tunes, trying to find out new ways of separating the workingclass/ consumer from the contents of his/her wallet.

How's that for Fundamental Economics 101, right wing losers? Give the cash to the working class.

When we make it too easy for the ruling class, they content themselves with getting rich off tax breaks, subsidies, P3s, and all the other goodies in the public trough. And like Rip Van Winkle, nobody wakes up again until the working class is bled dry, broke, demand dries totally up, and we have a major depression because there's nobody, or not enough bodies, to buy the asshole's goodies. Then they go to war to kick start it all over again. That's been repeated a number of times in the history of capitalism.

Y'all forget?

And how's that for Advanced Economic Theory, Brownshirt Nutcases, from a mere Joe Average working class? It even has hisorical experience on its side.

Like I say, come on over here, where we can teach you how capitalism really works, on this perspective side of the class war divide.

I think it was Mark Twain that said:

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

coyote; not so much falling in love as feeling sorry for. just kidding, of course.

Now Mr Coyote we haven't forgotten our meds again have we.

I knew it, that demon devil raper pig fornicating brown shirt wearing beelzebub Gordon Campbell and his lackey wackey neocon disciples have dowsized your meds ration to finance their money whoring working persons slave parlours.

sirj: I sense a real mellowing on your part, you could be suffering from that Stockholm Syndrome, from being held captive by our leftie comments for so long now...growing more and more sympathetic to our side...finally becoming a tyee leftie love child... that grows up to be a conservation officer saving wilderness areas from the clutches of evil mining companies or... yikes! even worse... a teacher.:-)

As enjoyable as this article is, some points of clarification and elaboration are required. I'll also offer some additional notes about the Nanaimo situation that will inform and surprise readers.

First the points that require clarification:

1. The citizens' group did not accuse Mr. Cantelon of conflict of interest. It instead argued that the circumstances were such that an investigation by a qualified third party at arm's length from City Council was required. The City refused, NDP and Liberal Councillors alike joining forces to protect Mr. Cantelon. Council instead proferred bogus advice, telling the residents who filed the report to take the matter to court under the Community Charter. But the City's policy is much more exacting than the Community Charter and legal action under the Charter is restricted to matters the Charter covers. The Mayor is a lawyer. He must have known that Council was proffering bogus advice. If he did not, it's easy to see why he's in politics and not trying to make a living as a lawyer.

The Council is not entirely averse to assessing conflict -- it did so a couple of years ago for a rookie councillor and gave him a slap on the wrist for his misdeed. But Councillor Cantelon is beyond reproach it seems.

2. Mr. Krog went to the trouble of informing me and this information was conveyed to Tyee by e-mail that he did not work for labour unions -- well before this story was filed. Your reporter was also advised of this when he interviewed me for the story. It was disappointing to see any reference to this in the story. I did not suggest that Mr. Krog "may be" doing legal work for unions because he had already made it clear that he did not do such work.

One final point that was discussed with the reporter but omitted:

There are several government directives on P3 projects, including one authored by the Auditor General. Each one presupposes or explicitly states that there will be a call for proposals or a competitive tendering process. The Province is aware of this but still permitted the City to proceed. The Community Charter provides direction to municipalities on financial stewardship. Putting over $50 million dollars of public money into a project without a tendering process in financially irresponsible -- in the extreme. For this reason alone the Province should not have passed enabling legislation to permit the City to proceed after it was revealed that prior permission to hold the referendum had not been granted, as is required by provincial law.

It is bad enough that a government supposedly committed to free enterprise refuses to insist that all devlopers be given a crack at bidding on a project of this size; it is ludicrous for the NDP to add its support.

The NDP policy, like the Liberal policy, is as follows:

1/ It's OK to give away prime public waterfront land to a developer if the right sort of blandishments are offered. It matters not that the land concerned and the buildings on it have heritage value (one is on the national registry). It matters not that citizens in the depths of the Depression made enormous private financial contributions and passed two referendums to construct one of the buildings, the Civic Arena. No, if a developer comes calling and wants the land for condos, so be it.

2. It's OK to avoid several provisions of provincial law and a number of municipal bylaw requirements to facilitate the ambitions of a private developer. No one in government and but one member of City Council are the slightest bit fazed by the extradordinary audacity of both levels of govenment. Take us to court if you don't like it and we'll fight you with your own money -- that's the attitude, plain and simple.

3. It's OK to run a steamroller referendum campaign, using large amounts of the taxpayers' own money, to secure the vote you want. It's OK to put out false and misleading information in the process. It's OK to deny funding for an independent appraisal of the project. What's fairness got to do with it? --life is unfair.

So the NDP-Liberal consensus is a wonder to behold. Don't investigate conflict of interest, don't involve the public in the process of formulating a plan for the most important decision in the history of the City, don't play fair in the referendum campaign, and above all, remain committed to a really bad idea even after a parade of experts offer detailed, pro bono, advice on how bad this idea really is.

In the case of the Nanaimo P3, that advice has been offered by:

Dr. Robert Bish, Professor Emeritus of the University of Victoria and listed in "Who's Who in Economics." Dr. Bish stated that the City's claim to economic benefits from the project was either dishonestly or incompetently stated, he could not be sure which.

Mr. Lewis Villegas, B.Arch., an urban design specialist, who showed how damaging the NNC project was to the historic streetscape of downtown Nanaimo and how the City's densification objectives could be met without going along with this outlandish deal to give Triarc prime public waterfront land of incalculable value on which to build unsightly condo towers.

Mr. Robert de Leeuw, B.Eng., a consulting engineer and risk analysis specialist with 38 years of experience in provincial, national and international projects, who showed quite clearly that the City had assumed large and unwarranted risks by not investigating all possible financial contingencies in advance of the deal with Triarc.

Mr. Trevor Boddy, B.Arch., distinguished architectual and urban design critic, who found it unbelievable that City Council would throw away the historic character of the downtown for the sake of a conference centre and future high rise and tower developments spotted through the inner city.

Dr. Heywood Sanders, Professor of Public Administration at the University of Texas (San Antonio), almost certainly North America's leading authority on convention centres and what makes them fail to match the promises conveyed by consultants.

Dr. Sanders warned Nanaimo that "it does not get to choose its competitors" and that the massive expansion of the Vancouver Convention Centre and the planned expansion of the Victoria Centre pose a real threat to Nanaimo's ambitions. He noted that some large centres in the United States even contain special small convention facilities -- a measure designed to suck up whatever business is available in a marketplace of ever-expanding, publicly-funded centres facing a steady and spectacular decline in convention business over the past decade and more. Dr. Sanders, says the respected Bloomberg columnist Joe Mysak, is the expert Wall St. doesn't want America to know about -- because Wall Street is busy underwriting bond issues for a bloated industry that somehow manages to escape public accoutability.

Some of those who offered comments earlier in the strip may wish to review what they have written in light of this information. For more detailed information, simply "google" the Friends of Plan Nanaimo website and check out current articles, the forums, and the archives.

There's a wealth of information about why the City is bent on the wrong course but there's also a proposal that should make everyone happy. Believe it or not, that's within the realm of possibiliy if the City pulls in its horns and senior levels of government become involved constructively in what otherwise is a classic boondoggle in the making.

Interesting piece homo civicus. Further distrubing evidence to my mind, of a fundamental convergence of ideology occurring twixt the Fiberals, Greens and NDP, certainly around this issue of P3s, and indeed, we shall see, privatization of government services and cut-back elements themselves. (Assuming the NDP gets elected, of course, more will be made clear as their policies evolve after the election, always a more reliable indicator of direction than is stated in the course of-, when it is important that one keep their core constituency on side, even if deception is necessary.)

Certainly I am some alarmed myself, by some of the emerging directions being evidenced from within the NDP (Their role in the settlement of the HEU contract, and a soft pedalled, polite election campaign.). Like I have said before, what we seem to unfortunately be facing here, are devil and deep blue sea choices, within a crippled democratic capitalist system , in which conundrum, I am no more impressed with the Greens.

All will be made more clear in the fullness of time, no doubt, and have its consequences.

Everybody, and all "acceptable" political elements it seems are agreed upon which asses to kiss, and which to stick it to. Most here will be able to sort that out, I presume.

But personally, thank for these comments of yours, homo civicus.

lynn; you're right. indeed i do feel sympathetic. after all, i am a humanitarian.
you've misguaged on my feeling towards teachers though. nothing more valuable than a good teacher, and there are a few in the system for sure, but as my kids move through the public system i realize what a joke it has become. too many are just weak lapdogs of their bctf masters who didn't know what else to do when they reached the fourth year of their liberal arts degree. such a shame.

sirj: I taught for a number of years and teachers are workers who deserve representation like anyone else. There are valuable lessons for children to learn in seeing individuals in their lives willing to stand up for their rights ( in this case as teachers) and the rights of others ( the students they teach). As Coyote said above, real life is often one of the greatest of educators... Okay, I'm out of here...back to P3's .

My thanks to homo civicus for some very important data.

The objections cited from Dr. Robert Bish, Professor Emeritus of the University of Victoria, Mr. Lewis Villegas, B.Arch., Mr. Robert de Leeuw, B.Eng., Mr. Trevor Boddy, B.Arch., Dr. Heywood Sanders, Professor of Public Administration at the University of Texas, are highly persuasive, at least to me. If I were a Nanaimo resident I would have voted NO.

But Nanaimo residents and their council voted yes, so what should the BC Govt do? If Nanaimo broke the law in the way it proceeded to referendum, that's a different matter, but if it's just collective bad judgement on the part of the Nanaimo Council and the people of that city, what is the rest of BC supposed to do?

Ohhh, I don't think so.

It is actually rather common out there, especially in the absence of good quality, accessible and affordable day care for working families, and especially amongst women who would like to get out of the the lives their trapped in, to resent teachers, their rights, and especially when they exercise them by going on strike. This primarily being because there is a tendency, seldom conceded, to want, desire , or view teachers as a kind of substitute baby sitting service for, like I say, especially hard pressed families. When teachers choose to exercise their rights, that every worker should have, unless we really do want to go back to the forced labour of slavery, to withdraw their labour and seek redress of their greivances and isses, no doubt it creates a disruption in working mothers and fathers lives, who then have to scramble to find alternate baby sitting.

That is regrettable, but the solution is not to trample all over workers, and in this case teachers democratic bargaining rights, but for society at large to get off their asses and get out there and DEMAND that, if society and the bloody benefactors of the economy want everyone, including mothers to work, then society and the main economic beneficiaries better come up with a useful model of alternately looking after and raising children.

As for the trauma of a strike on the wee bairns, if that was the issue, hog swill! That alone will do them nary a twaddle of harm. It's certainly not worth trampling on the hard won rights of working people-, including teachers. So we should know and admit that is not the real issue, but the scapegoat. 'Fess up!

The issue is babysitting, more particularly the need to finally resolves this issue of good quality, accessible and affordable daycare for ordinary and hardpressed folks.

Back to P3s. :-) (Had to say it.)

Sorry for all the typos. Failed to review my write.

I know I shouldn't add to this but Coyote brings up a central issue that is never said. It is the disruption of the work day world that is so feared by those who protest against teachers' strikes and strikes in general - they will just never freely admit it. Daycare being a real issue here, again as the wise Coyote says, for those who count on it.

This is a society inculcated with the god of work - you mess with the 9-5, (that has become the 8-8) hour work day and you become a major threat, a work terrorist. And those that protest strikes, especially teacher's strikes, often use children as their dodge.. but strikes can teach kids great things: to fight for what you believe in, that human rights are hard won, that you can survive when the world stops for a moment and that life no matter what you've read in fairy tales is not a straight line, is pretty messy at times...hey and ain't that great...what better lesson, what better preparation for the real world than that...survival skills for when life gets tough.

If you want a life that's neat and tidy with all the ends tied up, no mess, no disruption, and no chaos , pull the plug now because you're already flat-lining.

For those who look at this case, the referendum approval often seems to be the stopper. If the residents approved, isn't it their own picnic?

The problem with that way of thinking is that the referendum was manifestly unfair. The City shamelessly used taxpayers' money to pump out propaganda and refused to provide any funding for an independent evaluation. Compare to the PEI causeway referendum: the government set up yes and no sides and stayed out of it. That would have been the appropriate model.

No one on City Council was given a mandate in the past civic election to proceed with such a scheme. Yet they collectively fell in with a developer to give away public property and devised a method of hoodwinking the public that was hard to offset. The media played an abysmal cheerleading role, as did others in the community who should have been concerned that the issues were properly debated and the information flow maximized.

The editor of the only daily newspaper joined the yes campaign and shamelessly produced an unending flow of distorted coverage. A media bias study of referendum news by a UVic PhD student shows just how bad it was. The editor of the daily is incapable of anything but boosterism and distortion. He even edits letters to the editor to his satisfaction and refuses to publish letters from correspondents whose views he dislikes.

Those are just some of the problems. Importantly, many provincial laws and City bylaws were not observed. Both levels of government could care less.

When the rule of law is scorned and citizens are told to take their disputes to court where governments will fight them with their own money and at great expense, democracy is in sad shape.

It is also in sad shape when journalists fail to grasp the significance of this story and run with it. Several efforts have been made to get important provincial reporters on to the story. None has accepted thus far. Ditto radio talk host Rafe Mair -- simply not willing to look into it. Somehow it's not considered newsworthy. They are all mistaken. Governments that abuse the democratic process are and should be an issue. Governments that don't respect their own laws should be an issue.

Anyone who would like more information should go to the FPN website and check out the forums, news articles and briefs in the archives. That's at:

friendsofplannanaimo.org

To Coyote and lynn:
You sure got that right about the 'essential services' designation foisted on the teachers of this province by the Liberals - it is all about 'babysitting/daycare'. If education really was 'essential', why haven't the 'concerned' Liberals brought in legislation and enforcement to require all parents to send their children to school every day that they are open? Gordon Campbell, like many parents, has taken his children out of school for extended periods of time when it suited him.
Going on vacation to Hawaii, Mexico or California is hardly a valid reason for falling behind in ones education.

The NNC referendum is certainly not the first time that Nanaimo City council has bent and twisted the process to the breaking point, ignoring their own rules and policies and disparaging critics along the way. When the province decided to help out a couple of Vancouver developers by taking land for a yet another shopping centre from semi-rural Lantzville, Nanaimo tried to shift the blame entirely to the province and then proceeded to 'work the process' for all their worth.
If you want a little background, as well as my take on how our current so-called democratic system is 'broken', please visit http://vigilantz.blogspot.com

good one lynn--about sirj getting the Stockholm Syndrome. ha ha ha. I think Norman Spector got it too, but I see he's off somewhere, probably getting debriefed by one of the Asper kids.

Yes, vigilantz, sadly our "democratic" system appears to be broken at all levels of governance.

I have quickly reviewed your blogspot and your reference to the antics of Watt Ventures caught my eye. I, as a citizen of Nanaimo, was involved in another of their rezoning applications --- to rezone their land in order to construct a large liquor store. Was finally turned down at 4th reading, due to our persistence. Incidentally, Watt Ventures donated $100,000 to the City of Nanaimo for its Linley Vally Park. I am quite familiar with the conduct of Mayor Korpan and his Councillors.

Now that the election is over the fall-out of the NDP's strategy in Nanaimo may be assessed.

For Krog, all went swimmingly. He's elected and now on the same page as the Liberals: P3's involving multi-million projects without tendering and without fair referendum rules are OK. Leader Carol James agrees. Expect more of this sort of thing now that there is NDP-Liberal convergence on community development projects. And it won't matter if valuable public land is lost forever to private interests.

For candidate Carol McNamee of the NDP there are or should be lessons to be learned. Such as:

1. Don't let party bigwigs dictate your strategy in a riding for which the strategy that made the most sense was obvious: cast a broad net because you have many thousands of votes to make up.

2. Don't flinch from the issues: your opponent is a highly controversial real estate agent whose priorities were and are obvious. He was up against Nanaimo's own conflict of interest rules and with the connivance of NDP Council members managed to avoid accountability.

3. Put the party bigwig view to the test of party principles:

3P projects OK? No.

3P projects without tenders OK? No.

Abuse of democratic procedures OK? No.

Give-a-way of valuable public lands OK? No.

Insisting that the issue is purely local given certainty huge provincial contribution will be requested? No.

Remaining stuck in a position against all evidence OK? No

Given the above, the proper response would have been to tell the bigwigs that your campaign could not endorse such a nonsensical position. Saying even that much would have done you a lot of good and might have pushed you over the top.

Hopefully, these lessons have been learned in case there's a next time around.

Meantime, residents of Parksville, keep your eye on your new MLA. When it comes to development projects and the public interest vs. private interests, you should be watching his every step.