Re:Trying to be Fair - while EA may or may not be offering Flextime is beside the point. Employees are working 80+hours a week. That's absolutely insane, no company should expect that of their employees. I say EA should unionize - good luck to you!

Perhaps if Trying To Be Fair had the ability to consider this from the perspective of a worker, solving "the overtime dilemna in a fair way in a flexible environment" would be relatively simple. That this tool is being used by bad employers to take advantage of trapped workers to produce ELECTRONIC TOYS is a disgrace that TTBF apparently hasn't been able to grasp yet. Let me explain it. It's called exploitation and you can come up with all the lame excuses about flextime you want, it still adds up to exploitation. To suggest that there is nothing in the legislation to allow employers not to pay overtime when the facts clearly show they don't pay overtime, is a crock. I really don't see much difference between the regulated slavery of these jobs and the unregulated slavery of poor farm workers that government had been addressing until the Liberals took over in Victoria. What really blows me away is that this type of exploitation, disguised as cooperation, got its start in Canada under NDP regimes. It's very discouraging, although I must say Bay Street's Bob Rae was hobbled early in life being the child of wealthy diplomats before tricking a lot of Ontario's NDPers into thinking he was another Stephen Lewis. If the jobs go to India, Pakistan, China or the good ol' USA, let them go. There is nothing exploitive employers like better than a conventient example of how their workplace should run. TTBF, you sound like an MBA racing someone to the bottom. May your batteries forever be duds.

You make some good points. However, I think there's a large difference between flextime where employees willingly work extra hours certain days and the daily, unrelenting overtime described in this article. I can testify from 8 years' experience that a lot of Vancouver high-tech companies do abuse the privilige of being able to force workers into unpaid OT. It's still considered a sign of "comittment" in high tech to work these idiotic hours, even though everybody pays lip service to the concept of work life balance. I can certainly understand the need to work overtime for deadlines or crises, but having all your employees working 80-100 hours/week for 2 months straight? That's a sign of extremely poor management. I recently left a large high-tech company who expected employees to put in regular unpaid overtime. You only got paid for your time if your manager "authorized" it (hahaha), and of course there was so much pressure on managers to keep costs down for sheholders that they simply leaned on employees who complained, marking them as "not team players" or "unmotivated". And god forbid you ask about telecommuting or flex time - while they were all gung ho in theory about these concepts, it was seen as "opting out" of work somehow (no matter if you were productive or not) and got you a black mark. Unfortunately in the current labour market a lot of companies in high tech have the attitude that they'd rather replace an employee who won't put in the hours without complaint than try to encourage productivity. After all, "there's lots of people lining up, don't let the door hit you" seems to be the prevailing sentiment when high-tech workers complain about this stuff, which means that people are afraid to complain in case they lose their jobs. And of course there are all the "employee perks" that the companies tout to get into the "Top 100 Companies" list - parties, free food, blah blah. I'm sorry - I don't want free food, pool tables or socializing or what have you to entice me to spend even more time at work. I want a life. I'm very fortunate in that I learned early in my career that work-life balance was important to me, and that my skill set is portable across several industries. For now I like high tech, and if I get fed up enough with my current position, I can freelance to get out of the rat race completely. A lot of people aren't as lucky. I think this article has just pointed out the elephant in the living room of the hiogh tech industry - it's an issue that desperately needs to be addressed.

This story is so old - where has Peter Tupper been, in a cave? The entire software industry, not just EA, has been exempted from overtime rules long before the current Liberal government. I am one of those overtime widows who has essentially been a single parent for the amount of time my partner has to work outside of core hours. This has been going on for YEARS - since at least 1997! For all their "cerebral" aptitude, the people in the software industry are INCAPABLE of PLANNING! not only are they incapable, they don't even try. I suspect that at their core, they don't believe in planning. So instead, they panic at the last moment, and rush faulty product to release just to prove to their shareholders they've put something in a box. Amongst themselves, there's a cachet about working long hours to get a project out, and bragging rights to be won. It's all great when you're 22 and just out of university, but not when you 42 and have got a life to live. Peter Tupper, if you're looking for the next story, look into how many companies are moving at least part of their operations to Bangalore. We ourselves are facing unemployment in February because of Bangalore. They're talented and hard workers in Bangalore, but that 12hour time difference is going to KILL all the team members on this side of the ocean.(meetings at midnight, anyone?)

Of course it's an old story. But everybody has been so into the whole "I'm so cool, I give up my life for my job, never see my family, grow ulcers and sleep at the office" crap that nobody has acknowledged how stupid and unhealthy it is. Sure, people might complain about long hours, but when the alternative to it is getting "laid off" or not being able to use your job on your resume, most tend to shut up and knuckle down - which is why EA keeps getting away with this shit. I know from experience that they really tend to target grads and younger employees who are easier to con into buying the company spiel and sacrificing their live to work. A friend of a friend worked there for 2.5 years. She burned out on the insane hours, developed some scary health issues due to stress, and finally got fed up and quit without notice when she was "encouraged" cut her maternity leave short by 6 months to return to work. She threatened them with legal action if they refused to give her a reference, and fortunately found another job. Another friend worked for Pivotal and burned out on the stupid hours they were working. She resigned on friendlier terms, but she was completely fed up.

Let me say that I agree entirely with Allan and SK (except, of course, the unwarranted insults, at which I nevertheless take no offence). I was just trying to explain, from a policy perspective, how an initiative like this was born, and what it was trying to do, originally. It was, in essence, a policy that was "trying to be fair". I've worked in labour and labour policy all my life, and I was never able to understand why minimum employment standards receive so little attention from any government in this country. Canadians work long exhausting workweeks, longer than at any time since WWII, and most people that I know work well in excess of any statutory maximum, even where it exists. These hours of work are destructive to family life, civic life, and culture i.e. the things that matter. Funny, all kinds of things get on the progressive radar screen, but this one seems to have a very very low priority. (For example, 'way behind inventing punitive measures to take tobacco away from the workers.) But I still see a dilema here: you can't require an employer to provide an individually-tailored flextime schedule. Instead, you have to imagine a scenario in which employer and employee might be able to agree on one, and what the necessary tradeoffs would be in that arrangement. Remember, it was public policy to encourage flextime. Problem: employees don't usually "agree" with their employer over hours of work. There's a power relationship there and they just do the work. And, if the employer can avoid overtime in the process, the worker takes a double hit.

Typical government - take a good idea and screw it up beyond recognition. Even with extended averaging, employers should be able to logically calculate overtime without getting screwed to the point of needing to be exempted. I'm not that familiar with the actual text of the legislation, though. Does it define what "standard" monthly or weekly hours are, and set a threshold for OT, or does it define OT on a daily basis? I think the "standard" workweek is assumed to be 40 hours, which from my POV could mean that you're working any combination of time that does not exceed 40 hours per week. For example, assume that Joe Developer wants one day per week off. Instead of working five 8-hour days, he works four 10-hour days. Because his weekly time is still 40 hours, he's not entitled to overtime. You can run this calculation over a week or a month, or even several months, even math lame-brain like me. Yes, employers and employees must accomodate each other's needs in a flex time scenario, but it's done in lots of industries. I work shifted hours - I come in early and leave early. I know other people who work three or four day weeks on extended workdays. The government would have served the industry better by setting a mandatory work week and requiring employers to either offer flex time or provide solid evidence of why flex time was not possible (in some industries it can't be done).

Trying TBF, I apologize for my dumping on you, a messenger, but I am still puzzled how no one who had a hand in developing this system could see that perhaps the work place has a few built in inequities that all but ensure the employer's demands get top billing. I guess I could take this another step and question why no one in the colleges or universities of this country ever gives future workers a heads up about what the realities of the workplace may have in store for them. Are educators worried about being seen as impartial or are they simply dancing to the music requested from the pipers who fund their research? My advice to the spouses of people caught in this workplace nightmare would be to try to convince your partner to contact a union and, if need be, take that first step yourself. The BC Federation of Labour can put you in contact with various unions who have experience and a commitment to help workers. No, I am not employed by the BC Fed, but until we have a government that protect's workers' rights, the Fed is one of the few options available short of quitting. You see, that's the largest problem. The liberals have gutted the Employment Standards branch of officers who could investigate and resolve these conflicts in the workplace. A relative handfull remain, essentially to complete the paperwork employees are now required to do themselves after confronting their employer about the abuse if they want help. Encouraging isn't it?

Having done an stint at EA in the mid-nineties, working in a 'support role', I recall some things which pointed to a thoroughly dysfunctional corporate culture

In my experience, anyone not directly involved in game production,(e.g. those working in facilities, research, IT support), was treated as a second-class citizen within the company, paid meagre wages, and made to feel as though they could be dispensed with at anytime.

Furthermore, I witnessed abusive behaviour, courtesy of a senior game producer, who hurled abuse at a subordinate employee, in front of others who were too intimidated to intervene. Shades of the film industry....

For any internal software team, missing a game's ship date is a cardinal sin, hence coders live on pizza and coke, sleeping in coffee rooms in 4 hour stints for 2 or 3 weeks at a time. Anyone who objects is labeled a 'problem', and quickly drummed out of the company.

EA likes to market itself as a fine corporate citizen and a great place to work, but anyone considering a job there should do some research; they'll certainly find that there's another side to it.....

The day unions infiltrate EA is the day EA picks up shop and leaves. Unions love driving out business. If you don't like the working conditions, quit. No one is forcing you to work there. I like how it's always the Liberals fault. If something isn't right BLAME THE LIBERALS. Thats's an easy cop out and that's all it is. We live a global marketplace and compete with firms all over the world. We know Allan that you would like nothing more than to drive another business out of our province. After all they're not union jobs so they must be inhumane and abusive. IF the managment is so bad, quit it is as simple as that. You can start your own firm if it's so easy.

“Corporateering: How Corporate Power Steals Your Personal Freedom - And What You Can Do About It” at http://www.corporateering.org/

I know a few people who work at EA - and none of them had any illusions about the working conditions before they chose to work there. Obviously they don't see working in those kind of conditions as a permanent choice, but weighing their own personal opportunity-cost, deemed the situation "worth it" for them. And Jim is right - if people aren't happy working there, they are always free to leave. Granted, jobs are not always easy to come by, but with the number of people beating down EA's door to work there, someone with "Software Developer - Electronic Arts" on their resume already has a leg-up.

The situation at EA predated the Liberal govt. and was facilitated to some extent by the NDP-lead Ministry of Labour turning a blind eye to certain practices, under the guise of 'sustainable high-tech jobs', or some other '90s tech-boom buzz-slogan.

BTW Jim, I didn't like the working conditions, so I did quit; nevertheless, justifying unfair labour practices and employee abuse under the guise of 'you can always work elsewhere' is a pathetic cop-out, unless you're one of those wing-nuts who believes in an unregulated labour market, in which case I suggest you move to Bangalore where you can code C++ for the princely sum of $20 a day

Jim, good to see you've slithered back onto the forum. So if workers object to working 80 and 100 hour weeks or putting up with blatant intimidation they should just up and quit. If forcing people to work such long extended work weeks for months on end with absolutely no added compensation isn't "inhumane and abusive", then perhaps you might tell us what is. Jim, just who should we blame for the gutting of the Employment Standards Branch, the Labour Code and working conditions for unorganized workers? Please enlighten us. I would take great pride in being responsible for chasing one of these scum-bag employers out of our province. Please tell me who is going to buy the retail goods, stay at Whistler and buy the new cars and homes etc., that keep so many of today's middle-class well compensated if workers can't afford to? Perhaps high tech workers earning $2 an hour or less to compete with your global marketplace will keep you, Gary Collins and Harmony Air flying, but most of us know better. Get out from under that rock and start paying attention rather than spewing your thinly-disguised, Liberal-tinged worker hatred.

Seems the older i get the more i see greed take hold and ruin lives,and in the case of employers insisting in going back two centuries. If workers do not risk unionizing then yes their lot will see the lowest common denominator -pay- being the factor. Sorry to see that B.C. wants this to happen while more solid local secondary , say ,furniture industry gets short shrift. EA and other high tech companies should not be exempt from employee standards that is what these standards should be doing ,not allowing abuse of workers ! Unfortunately, even the coal miners in Dunsmuir mines long ago got screwed while top of the pyramid gained enormously[castles etc.] Social darwinism is what is practiced proudly by capitalism . If only i could make a better electronic game with out any overhead and sell it for a large profit.Perchance to dream,Icould become as rich as Cressus! That is the point, jobs and pays only exist as a necessary requirement. the employer if it can be acheived wants through any method [intimadation.etc.]to reduce cost and forestall unionization!

I wish people would work half as hard on a space program, as opposed to making video-games. I am certain that I am not the only one that was blown away by the pictures from the Mars Rover. I think people would find more meaning in their work if they felt they were helping the species move into space. Of course government would actually have to organize a space program, because that is why we have public education, public healthcare, publicly-funded research and other public goods.

but look at the wonderful product ea produces. it keeps our children stationed in front of computer terminals and prevents them from getting exercise. there's nothing like spending all day playing video games and eating potato chips to make our children healthy. also these games are so educational and there's hardly ever an gratuitous violence in a popular video game. yes sir, this company deserves special considerations in respect to the labour laws.

Ranbir, the Mars images were disappointing. Remember that they were using atmospheric data to create "approximate true colour images". In other words; the effects blew! That's why kids prefer video games. Better graphics AND they get to embark on a life with stunted development and curtailed ambition for meaningful work. Oh, but they'l be great as technologically proficient warriors when we need them.

The issues raised in the main piece apply across the board to many creative fields. And the film industry is heavily unionized. In that case the workers may be happier vis-a-vis conditions but most are still working on garbage shows. I was at an EA X-mas party at the Commodore one year. It felt like I was thrown back to the fifities; al these young married kids not knowing that we've been through all this before (ie. overworked stressed families etc.)

Couldn't agree more Bob, when I was working for one of these companies I was amazed that they all seemed to think giving up their life for the boss was a wonderful thing that nobody had done before :) You're right, it was like watching people through a time machine. Would be interesting 10 years later after kids started showing up to see how many were divorced.

The weird thing is, the workers there actually believed what the boss told them about how important balancing family and work etc were. Yet their wages were nothing startling and not one had a life outside work. They were working 60+ hours a week, every week, all year for less than 40k, and less than 30k in most cases and with no benefits beyond their 2 week vacations.

And they thought they were pampered :) I still laugh when I think back and wonder how they're all doing :)

Anyone up on their Trajan?

"It felt like I was thrown back to the fifities; all these young married kids not knowing that we've been through all this before (ie. overworked stressed families etc.)" wrote Bob Alexander.

The whole time, everywhere now, for me, is like having been caught in some kind of reversing time warp. I keep coming across shit happening, where I find myself shaking my head and saying,"What the hell is happening? Didn't I, didn't we all just go through all this and settle that?"

The most troubling aspect is, what has happened to the power, influence and ideological direction of the trade union movement itself. Like, shit, it was riding so high, to have so quickly fallen so low. And the public mind set and level of political and economic understanding has done a lightening speed 180 degree, since Solidarity in 1983-, though there were signs even then of what was happening. We just didn't want to see it.

The good times bought too many people off, not excluding in the trade union movement, and allowed for too many illusions about the "reformed" and "beneficent" nature of capitalism to take root, in the great public consciousness.

So there is a great "learning" going on, all over again, so it seems to me. Too bad, but probably inevitable, precisely at places like EA, where we see a further example of the difference between being "Educated" and being "educated". Probably all connected with that long observed tendency of "folks" to, too readily forgive and forget. Which keeps bringing them and us all back to the need to repeat history, even, and maybe especially, working class history.

I build video games for fun in my spare time and had visions of working for one of the top companies in the industry, but no longer. If you can't make it independantly by starting your own company and producing a game you may as well work in any sweatshop environment. The greed of the corporate elite has no bounds. Those of you who make stupid statements like "if you don't like it quit" obviously have never had the misfortune to have to work for this type of company. You also don't have any self respect or the guts to stand up for basic human rights. Thank god stronger people than you fought the "good fight" against racism, sexism, and slavery or we would all be living in work camps right now. Who do you think stood toe to toe with the communists in the former Soviet Union, not gutless right wing toadies like you, I can assure you. The bottom line is, if you are too much of a wimp and cry-baby to stand up to abuse of working people then get the hell out of the way and let people with more intestinal fortitude do it.

Jeff Barkley, well said. Some of us call those people who like to say "if you don't like it quit" running dog, but your choice of 'toadies' is pretty accurate as well.

Indeed, well said, Jeff Barkley.

Thank you Coyote and Jeff...What is the "fun" of building "games" if "fun" is last thing in your life you get to have. If we are all so busy working our lives away for peanuts, who do they think will buy their product. It's a contradiction.

Jean you're creepy- I read your post to Coyote and knew it was you, not Lewis.

Nice one Coyote, well put. My brother works in this industry in Toronto and his laptop is basically glued to his eyeballs 24-7. I think this work in particular can become an obssession. The bizarre thing is my brother doesn't play video games- he thinks they're stupid; he's a painter at heart. Now he is doing work for corporate clients and he doesn't have very nice things to say about them....

I work as a freelance photographer for local editorial clients like The Straight (and the Tyee on occasion) right through to national and international corporations. I deal with design firms, ad agencies, know EA employees etc. etc. and there is but one truth: No one sector has a monopoly on the use of life-draining employment practices. After doing work for some "Politically Correct" non-profit types I was relieved to next be working with some professional corporate types who knew when to break for lunch ... and vice versa. Corporation bashing is tiresome and reflects appalling ignorance and resentment that has little to do with reality. There are a lot of left-leaning business people I've met who are pretty harsh on workers. The only time I'm doing 27/7 without good pay is when its a personal project. Uh, so I guess I better report myself to Labour Standards! BTW Vancouver is a particularly bad place to make your living in any "creative" field. There are few options for movement so people are afraid to speak out and stand up. And the bitterest fights are fought over the smallest crumbs.

Ok Mark. The next thing you'll probably say is Gordon Campbell for prime minister. These are people with lives. We do not go to school to become slaves later on. That;s the problem. Too many yes people, little people with vision and those with the power, they are scrawny little wimps using papa and mommy's money to get back at the people who made fun of them in high school. Listen, this industry is tough. The trend is seeing the industry moving to the third world, even after all the labour reforms and it is not the fault of labour or people not putting in their time. The big corps are greedy, that's all. The bottom line is what matters and that workers are irreplaceable. The big corps do not look at long term profitability with providing good time off for families to foster procreation and the installment of good values and practices to ensure a good and cooperative work force with intelligent people who get along. I know its utopian but it is attainable. To those of you working long hours, take care of yourselves the best you can because no one else will. Thank you.

Uh, Chevy? You should re-read my post and think a little harder. Did you see "vice versa" in there? Do you have broad experience working in both corporate and labour settings? I do. Who would make blanket condemnations of one or the other? They are mirrors of one another and the character of each organization varies wildly based on the personalities at the top. Even in the film "The Corporation" this is acknowledged. As for your Campbell comment...

To "Trying to be fair": Flextime and other arrangements exist in other countries and function as planned. I work in Germany for BMW (but the concept is not specific to them) - I have a contract for 40 hour work-week. - Any time worked over 8 hours goes into a "time account". The Works Council stipulates that this time account not have a balance of more than 200 hours. - I am able to spend the time in my time account as if it were holiday. - At the end of the year, a maximum number of hours in the time account can be taken into the new year (at BMW its 40 hours, in another company it was higher) - Any hours above this maximum must be paid out at time and a half (paid out of the department's budget, so this reflects badly on the boss, if there are too many hours to be paid because she will not meet her budgeting goals) This system works. It gives me and my boss flexibility, but discourages exploitation. all sort of work schemes are made possible. I have for instance taken up to 6 weeks vacation using time from my time account. Others take a long weekend every second week to burn up the time.

I agree with Mark's last post 100%. What EA's current abused staff needs to do is seek employment with a Corporation that 'mirrors the character' of one of these nice guy CEOs that Mark speaks of. Peice of cake. That wasn't just a new spin on 'If the managment is so bad, quit it is as simple as that.' Thankyou for putting all of this to rest Mark, lol.

... and still we see thousands of "graduates" every year from some two bit arts "Institute" cranking out 'game' or 'web designer' degrees. What these young, naifs never seem to grasp is that there will never be a plumber or an electrician in the Lower Mainland who'll have to *compete* with a Bangalore resident for their paycheque. As long as the myth of 'cool' jobs in the high tech sector continues to propagate, "symbolic analysts" will always seem to be a nice, clean (ie: no dirty hands) and respectable line of work... what they *really* ought to be promoting jobs like these with is the old familiar line, "you can't win if you don't buy a ticket"...

Hey Ben, do you think there might be a good reason I'm freelance? I just did a shoot for a business magazine for a piece about a dire shortage of skilled labour in the construction market. Several guys on the site were heaping scorn on "all these kids who just want to sit in front of a computer and get paid for playing!" There's probably an essay or two on class & ambition to be spun out of that. BTW I agree that if your ambition is to make games and you don't like the conditions you should take action to change the situation. That can take many forms. I've already said Vancouver's tough because there's nowhere else to go in such a tight market.

"There are a lot of left-leaning business people I've met who are pretty harsh on workers," proclaims labour relations expert Mark Mushet. Sorry to raise a question re your understanding of workplace realities, but your understanding of "left" and "right" appears to have been filtered through too much freelance confusion. Mark, someone who is a businessman and abuses his worker is not left leaning no matter what he professes too you. If you have to abuse workers to earn a profit you are certainly not left. That's pretty basic. If the issue is you just want to try to speak up for your corporate clients, then say so, but please don't feed me this crap about left and right. It's real basic stuff Mark. Excuse me if I miss the mark here, but I think you are trying to say that you, as a fearless independant (read=freelancer)can look after your own needs and so if people don't like being abused, get out of the workplace. Real left-leaning businessmen would know the value of their employees and at least try to nurture it rather than abusing their trust. And please, your Mark&Ben routine is a bit tranparent.

Wow. You've missed the mark allright. And made absurd assumptions. First off: I am not posting as "Ben" in order to follow-up to something I wrote if thats what your last line is suggesting. Second, I've helped organize a union and negotiated a first collective agreement with an abusive employer. It was the NABET union rep who was emphatic about the idea of a local's character often mirroring that of management if care was not taken to find balance. Third, I clearly left open the option of union organization as a possible solution to workplace complaints. Fourth, if you think people who claim to be "left" are not capable of abuse (and by "abuse" I'm thinking along the lines of subtle pressure to work long hours etc.), you're dead wrong. What's the litmus test to be considered "left" or "right"? I try and take people at their word until they're betrayed by their actions. What I was *obviously* saying was that there *are* good corporate environments in which to work as a counter to the predictable, tiresome and resentment fueled bashing that goes on here all too often. Once again, this point was made in the film The Corporation. As for my clients, I don't pursue work for companies that I think are problematic. As for freelancing, it just happens to be the only way you can do such a great variety of work. I'd be just as happy if there was a full-time position with good benefits, wages and hours that afforded the same opportunities.

Forgot to add: freelancers in the afore-mentioned tight market of Vancouver are even more vulnerable that those able to use the Labour Standards Act (or whatever its called now) to find some degree of redress.

Mark, one litmus test is if they abuse their workers. If you refuse to pay your employees overtime, or force them to work long hours under the threat of being replaced you are not left. Yes, there are people who mascarade as being left.They may be union members and even members of the NDP, but their primary goal is themselves. Some of them go on for years playing out the charade of being a real progressive human being. But if their bottom line is increasing their profits on the backs of their workers then their politics don't lean to the left. I'm sure you have lots of experience in both the corporate and worker sides, but that's not a prerequisite to understanding the right/left divide. Now, I will admit this is my view of what left is. Others, who condone the actions of our current provincial government, might argue anyone who disagrees with Gordo is a leftist and no doubt "a dirty rotten commie socialist leftist." I've actually met people who are running for election who use the line "trust me, I'm not a politician" to sell themselves. Some of them actually believe their self-created illusions. Now are far as Labour Standards in BC are concerned, I'd say that you as a freelancer, who contracts to employers, have far more protection through the courts than does anyone having to rely on provincial labour legislation to be made whole. Now, I'm sure it's a pain in the ass to sue for payment in Small Claims Court, but if you want an education in frustration try the Employment Standards process that Electronic Art employees would have to use. Here's what they face. They must first confront their employer on their own both verbally and in writing. The employer has up to six months to reply. Once the employer does reply, (and that might be after six months of sheer hell as your boss deals with you his way), you can then apply to an Employment Standards officer to investigate your complaint. Make any errors on your paperwork or process and guess what you have to start doing all over again. Even if you get it right, chances are the Employment Standards officer will push you into a compromise, because the officer really doesn't have the political clout or backing from head office to do anything else even if they want to.

Boo F***ing Hoo! Computer animators working overtime for just around 50 grand a year... I know that to be a logically consistant leftist I should unswervingly support all workers who do not own productive capital, but come on. How about going down to Labour Unlimmited and talking to the construction labourer who makes $8 an hour to jackhammer concrete all day. I've done it, got the callouses to prove it. It sucks and makes the plight of relatively well off intellectual workers seem like a featherbed. The next time I hear a university lecturer, computer techie or other white collar worker complain about the constant trips to the water cooler, papercuts etc. I'm going to puke.

So there's no essential disagreement here. As for the Labour Standards vs. small claims thing: "Yuk!" on both counts. I've never been through either and don't want or expect to. But I do know that the small things that are taken without payment (ie. unlicensed photo usage beyong initial, written agreements) are almost always a write-off in terms of expecting resolution. As for EA, I nearly "lost" a friend to its maw. But she's still there, having worked something out that gives her her life back. I'll have to ask again how that came about.

To "Bubbles": apparently there is a dire shortage of skilled labour on construction sites at the moment. I doubt the pay is $8 an hour right now. Don't know what the usual situation is though. The water cooler/paper cuts comment misses the point and smacks of petty resentment.

Most people at EA and other high-tech employers aren't making 50k, that's just the advertising bs.

As for paper cuts etc the point is not how physically demanding working at a computer is, I agree it isn't. The point is that you have to work so many hours that although they'll smile and give you a day off to be with your wife when your kid is born you won't see that kid again till they start work at the next cubicle.

Time with family and just to relax is important to an individual's ability to cope with stress. When that time is not there due to ridiculous "deadlines" being imposed by management it doesn't matter how physically hard the actual work is, it leads to breakdown.

By the way, some tech jobs are very demanding mentally, such as being lead programmer on a big project. Anyone ever seen a 50 year old lead programmer? I haven't.

Wow, we should all get paid overtime for reding through these comments. The Work Less Party www.worklessparty.org (running candidates in the provincial election in May) is planning a calendar givaway to EA employees. This is an issue whose time is well past due. For more than just the high-tech sector. When you're done reading all these comments, check out the Work Less Party website and get involved.

The problem with the right wing solution of 'just quit if you don't like it' is that it doesn't fix the problem. If you had a neighbor who stole your car, would you just go buy another one? Let him steal it again, then buy another one and so on. NO this employer needs to be fixed. Organizing is the only way, as one persons fight with the watered-down labour branch on your side won't work. If you can't be nice here in Canada, I say go away. These greedy bottom-line types want to live here to. Not Bangalore or some other third world type of atmosphere. We have a nice lifestyle in Canada, and by bringing our wages and employment standards lower and lower just ensures it won't stay this way.

Went over to the Work Less Party website, looked around a bit looks interesting.It may be a good alternate to the two main contenders, I'm mean what the hell does the average joe-jane have to lose any way. I may join up,why not! May be the Tyee could do a write up on this new political party.

If it takes two people working full time just to make the mortgage payments and taxes on a house in the suburbs, where would the money come from?

If I were a computer programmer - (old or young), I would be seriously looking for a different line of work because it won't be long before technology replaces human input.

Left leaning complainers should try relaxing at part time jobs, or do they expect more money for less work?

A few years ago you couldn't open the Georgia Straight without being bombarded by full page ads promising cool, creative, glamorous jobs if you take such and such digital program. Young people were sold an illusion at an average price of about $25,000.

The fix has been in at the LRB since 2001. Guess who the first co-chair of the Premier's technology council was?

Paul Lee, former COO of EA Burnaby, and now EA's president of worldwide studios or some such thing.

As I said before, EA's mistreatment of its employees predates the Liberal govt, but they must have been able to legitimize certain practices by simply whispering in Gordo's ear....

That link seems broken, so try this one.

It's stunning how the premier's centralized communications dept. hired a consultant, who then burned through 15 million to create a database-driven Web site, and there are still broken URLs all over the govt site....

The worst thing about EA's approach is there is no incentive for proper management. None. The only thing that matters is getting the game done on time and with a 92 rating on metacritic. The 92 rating is not as important as getting it done on time. I work in television. Crews work 10 hours then we have to start paying big bucks for OT. We don't want to pay big bucks for OT, so when scheduling we spend a ton of time figuring out how to get the most out of our crews within the scheduled work day. That means we work them as efficiently as possible. It takes a lot of planning, but it is worth it. EA management has no incentive to do this. They own their employees at a fixed rate. Work them hard or send them home, they cost you as much. So, managers can screw up production schedules eight different ways, and still come out of it heroes by working employees around the clock and delivering on time. If they could be organized enough and good managers they could deliver on time without doing this to employees.

Thanks for the links Deeby. Yes, you are absolutely correct about the LRB, now home to quite a number of fawning dependants of Gordon Campbell and a handful of compliant bureaucrats who have never let principles get in the way of a paycheque. Hey, want to decertify your fellow union members, call up the LRB's communications department for all the tips you need. As far as needing to legitimatize certain practices, the reality is if you don't have a union or a lawyer or both working on your side, there is little need for your employer to legitimatize anything. Complain and you'll be gone long before the complaint ever surfaces at any official hearings other than perhaps Human Rights, which will then be ridiculed by the mainstream media and threatened by the Liberals with dismantling if it doesn't stop embarrassing supporters. ***Seabass; as you likely know, when a union and managers sit down to negotiate a collective agreement they usually agree that most things not specifically mentioned on paper are the responsbility of management. The right to manage is reserved for management. Unfortunately a goodly number of managers are title collectors who expect the lowly worker to manage to get the job done somehow. Time management is simply not an issue when you have slaves.

In the interest of fairness it should be noted it was the NDP and its legions of cappuccino socialists who were duped into flexitime and other erosions of principles that workers fought for centuries to establish. I am and have been since I was in my teens a committed trade unionist and socialist. I have, since the 1960's spent almost a year on picket lines, lines,17 years enforcing employment standards in BC and a few years as National President of the NDP. I make my criticism as friendly fire. The NDP was being sucked in on these issues by employers organizations and a BC Federation of Labour that absolutely lacks any recollection of the power dynamic in a non union workplace. At that time I presented a paper to the Roper Ready Baigent commission and later presented a paper to the then Deputy Minister of labour Marg Arthur, her ADM and the then Director of Employment Standards. In my papers I showed them an alternative way of accommodating the workplace of the 90's without leaving workers open to exploitation. The government was far too fascinated with "appeasement at the alter of high tech" and "being seen to be business friendly" to pay any attention to alternatives. If anyone is interested in putting together a group to look at getting it right if the NDP ever gets the privilege of governing again I would help.

It's very encouraging to see that about 90% of these posts are just stoking the fire and bitching, not! Why don't all you concerned citizens brainstorm on some creative ways to solve this problem. Quitting or unions are both pretty lame options, and neither will help make any progress as a society or inidividuals. We need to foster these andvanced industries in a humane way not send them out of the country. I'm glad to read seabass' post had an idea about scheduling. There are many different ways to plan and manage software development projects, maybe scheduling is the problem I don't know. I think it's terribly unhealthy to expect people to work 80-100hr work weeks. If you only have have 68 total free hours, how can you sleep 8hrs and eat and manage your life. But just whining is not going to solve the problem. Who's doing anything about this? Well it's a hard problem...so I maybe I should debate the left vs right some more...it's much more satisfying.

Well, from a real real old fogey.we could all stop buying the sillyass games...most of them are just training aids preparing our kids for the day the great Amerikkkan empire sends them off to play a real-life kill game. I won't buy them for my grand-children. I'll buy soccer balls, basketballs, even volleyballs, I'll buy baseballs, softballs and tennis balls, I'll buy bats and racquets, I'll buy soccer boots and fishing gear but I will not buy something which suggests it's okay to use an array of weapons to kill a whole bunch of "people", too many of whom look, you should exuse please the term "ethnic". If more of us refuse, if less of these pernicious training aids brainwash our kids maybe we'll solve the problem of overtime and at the same time do something toward stopping the genocide being inflicted in the Garden of Eden.

"There are a lot of left-leaning business people I've met who are pretty harsh on workers. "

I agree with Allan, maybe taking a little harder line. This is complete charlatan, shape shifting drivel, transparent enough that I don't even feel any pressure whatsoever to respond to it. This guy is a joke, right out of pathetic Yuppieville. (And if it is the standard, what passes for "left" these days is pretty pathetic.)

As for the construction worker, down at the non-union hiring hall, you have a special problem. And the first thing you want to do is maybe talk to somebody down at the Labourers Union, or even the BC Fed. (At least, I assume that is still worthwhile.). At the least, start building a support base amongst those folks you work with. There's no big mystery to it. Organize.

But in short, if you want sympathy and support, you better learn to understand other people's special circumstances and problems as well. $8 an how is a joke. What our EA folks are getting paid, I and you don't know, or what they are having to do and go through to make it. (Though you do evidence that tendency of some "victims" to think, that nobody else is working as hard as them, nor really earns their money, like you do, of course. It's called "victim think": the other guy always has it better than you do. Quit wallowing and get over it. Trying accepting that other workers deserve what they get, and when they tell you that they are not being treated fairly, accept that, at least until you "know" otherwise.) $50 Grand a year, even if they are making that, especially if its before taxes and other deductions, is not a a great sum in the real world. It's about a bloody minimum you need to have any kind of meaningful life at all, to raise your family, buy you a home (if the old lady is working as well, otherwise...), educate your kids to standards needed in today's world, look after the health and happiness of yourself with a simple thing like some holidays every year, or give you much of a bloody retirement at all, which we all sooner or later have to prepare for-, or get ready for a miserable old age as well.

If you're making $8 an hour, and are seriously wanting to do something about it, and angling for the kind of community solidarity that will help you to do that, like I say, you have to be able to see beyond and identify with more than just your own needs and interests.

That's the problem with these so-called "left wing" business type shape shifters as well. You can hear the, "Me,me, me!" in every line they utter.

Hard to take anybody too seriously with that mentality working against them.

The word for today is, "Organize!". Once that lesson has been mastered, the word to fully understand is, "Fight!"

Without understanding the linkage and importance of those two concepts, one is just blowing hot air... playing video games. :-)

It's funny you should say that Fiona, my first reaction to that was, "Jean Spinnette." But Lewis is a pretty emotional guy, and I don't expect that all of us will agree on everything all the time. And I mean, like it's not the first time I have been told, "Fuck you."

I can live with that. :-)

I'm likely to be busy through the next weekend here. I've got stuff to do in my shop, that I've been putting off. So, in case, a Merry Winter Solstice to those of you I have come to know and respect here. If one can, and I hope you can, it is a time for feasting and family, for those of us outside the Religious/Christian tradition anyway.

After tomorrow I think it is, the sun starts to work its way back north again, with its promise of the coming renewal. I love watching for the first signs of those lengthening days.

This is a good article, but I would like to point out that many organizations, including government and unions, work their employees too much with too little pay. We need as many people as possible to rally together to improve their working conditions.

So let’s take Coyote’s advice and “organize” how long do we seriously expect EA to hang around Vancouver? A little concept called “cost of doing business” rears its head and suddenly you have another satellite operation setup in a jurisdiction where the costs are cheaper. Of course corporate spin-doctors will resort to this operation as an “expansion to cater to outside markets”, but in the end it will come at the expense to the BC economy. Do we really need this 90’s history lesson to be re-visited again?

I have often tought that high tech professionals should organize in some fashion. I am not an advocate for unions, but some for of protection is needed. Quite often I see companies take advantage of their high tech employees, especially when they can hold over their head ... outsourcing! You spend a great deal of time, money and effort to educate yourself, and a company treats you no better than as if you came out of hight school.

It's pretty disheartening to hear that people are actually pulling the "boohoo you guys make too much money anyway" lines. It's not about comparing the monetary worth of one human being's work to another, it's realizing that an injustice has been done in the name of greed and has created a situation of gross mismanagment which was supported by our provincial government. (And for the record 50,000.00 a year doesn't go far with a family that has student loans from an animation school that cost almost as much as med school.)

No question that some high tech workers are, to a degree, forced to work insane hours. And, no question that a smart company would change its culture so that insanity is reduced.

Some of the commentors suggested the "just quit" solution which is always an option. Other suggested organizing, unions and so on. Also an option.

Problem is that the backend of a game producing company is not a terrifically local enterprise. Once the deal has been cut to do the Lord of the Rings game which bunch of coders do it is largely irrelevant to the folks who own EA or any other gaming company.

It is easy to confuse coders with people who are, in fact, irreplacable. Coders you can get in India and that is where a lot of coding jobs are going.

Back a few years ago the various unions in the film biz in the US were outraged at the number of shows and movies shot in Canada, Vancouver specifically. The problem was that Canadians wanted the work and between the low dollar and a willingness to work for less, got it.

But the deals, as David Breener's article yesterday illustrates, were still done in Hollywood. The actual IP was those deals. Who shot the movie and where was entirely unimportant to the deal makers.

The game market is international and internationally competitive. Slapping a sticker on a game saying "Made by non-exploited, Employment Standards protected, BC coders." will not justify a price 20 or 50% higher than the competition. Or, more accurately, it will justify the price but that price is not going to be paid by the fourteen year old trying to get the most game for his Christmas dollar.

While good lefties will suggest this represents a fatal flaw in the capitalist system and that, come the revolution, 14 year olds will have the consciousness necessary to make the right choice, for the moment that is not an actual solution.

What may be a solution is for the EA-enabled coders to actually start their own companies/co-ops and make games which can compete. Now, here's the rub, they will be living on air or, at best, minimum wage, until they can get their product to market and, even then, given the competitive nature of that market, they may not be able to sell many games. But if they do they make a lot of money.

They will also find they are working insane hours and to impossible deadlines.

So we already know my opinion of the war games, now I take exception with the assumption there is something wonderfully "creative" and "innovative" about the work being done in animation. They tell you what the characters MUST look like..what colours..what shades..what tones..tell you the story...provide frames ... pardon me but it seems about as creative and innovative as sewing the side seams on the legs of jeans or shirts, or crayoning the pictures in a colouring book. Someone stated animation school costs almost as much as medical school... but the difference is obvious. No hungry kid in New Delhi or China is going to fix your broken leg by internet connection in a sweatshop where conditions are far worse than anything in Vancouver. You want decent hours, decent pay and security? Train for a union protected trade. You want to play games and colour inside the lines, you find out some of the harsh truth about expoitation. It might not be "right" but it's how it is. Or you can work prettymuch full time writing novels and , with a very few noticeable exceptions, wind up with an annual income which makes welfare look like a great option.// Solstice is here. Today the queen bee lays four eggs; from today onward she will lay increasing numbers of eggs as the sun , the light, the warmth returns. Already my Sedum has little green knobs of new growth, the primroses are braving the chill, the dandelions are trying to start again and the *(##%^$ creeping buttercup hasn't even slowed down. I wish you all a wonderful pagan holiday with food, family, friends and an awareness we are among the luckiest people in creation. Put up lights! Decorate the doors and windows! Celebrate! We're alive and the Georgia Strait Crossing has been cancelled!! To those of you who have become "good buddies", my best wishes...Fi, Shirin, Coyote, I wish you peace.

Anne, I'm with you, and not just because I just finished reading "The Whole Fam Damily" (brilliant, broken novel) but because it's those of us who consume the system that must make the changes. Anylize all you want to, if you're still buying the game, you're still enabling the abuse. As unrealistic as it may be to educate the consumer as to the effect of the product, it's the only game in town. If you like the idea of the real capitalist society, just go ahead and continue the pattern; soon we'll be Wal-Can, living next to Shellerica, trading with the Far Toyota and perhaps the MiddleExxon. War sponsered by Nike.

Thank you, Devils' Advocate...you might enjoy Those Lancasters, another broken (all my stuff is broken) novel...the whole computer technology thing makes me uneasy. The hype, the supposition those who are computer "literate" are in some way better educated, intrinsically superior, the templar knights of a new and brave rah rah bafflegab and bullshit...I use one, obviously. Do I trust any part of it? No. Each time you go to Google they can track the serial number of your machine, know where you are, what you're researching..and Google DOES supply Homeland Security with information (doesn't it make you wonder why they can't locate the stolen computers by serial number when they access the internet??) I think when all the frenzy and bumph is carved away we'll find that the military and international banking are the main beneficiaries. People tell me Oh no, Anne, LOOK at the way information is made so easily available, the technology is in the hands of the average person, WE will.......oh yeah, right , and Big Bro is going to let that happen!! All that information has to be fed in by someone...government censorship and propoganda can slant anything (and does). As for "creative" computer imaging... sorry, I find the images, even in something like Schrek (which my grandchildren love!) have an overlay of something sinister. One of my grandsons brought home a video game where the motherfucker asswipe fuckin' fucker language was so unending even I had to protest (and we all know I grew up in a coal town and have been said to talk like a dock whalloper)((and yes, there are political motivations to that, too!!)). I told the kid he had to use his earphones, I didn't want the babes to hear it and the next day he took it back because he said it was "stupid". Ugly images, ugly faces, jerky movements...what is artistic about any of it? The biggest creativity goes into the advertising to sell them. I won't buy them, don't play them, and if a kid has nothing else to do but become mesmerized by them Grandma can always find a chore she needs them to "help" me with..... usually outside, usually involving the garden, almost always including a shared chocolate bar. It seems as if there's an age which is particularly enamored of them, mostly boys, mostly from about age ten to maybe sixteen, after which most of them seem to mature and go on to something else. In our family it's usually fishing, or prawning or something to do with a boat. Some, thank heaven none of mine so far, stay fixated, I suppose, and lose the best part of their lives to the ozone. Happy Solstice, it's a gorgeous day in Tahsis! Sunshine and wisps of mist.

Perhaps Mr. Lahey could tell EA workers how to improve their lot. So far all he has shown is that he is anti-union and pro exploitation of workers. But then he does hail from Alberta where exploitation of workers is official government policy, isn't it? ***Regurgitated writes an awful lot like our old buddy Binette, beginning with an inane comment and then fleshing our far two many sentences with purposeful distortions that would make a Liberal communications flack in Victoria proud. Please, no more renditions of the Sgt. Montague -BCTV allegations. We all know that Clark was exonerated. Reading the pair of you above, one gets the impression there are some very nervous Liberals in Vctoria.

Regurgitated, are you for real? Let recap shall we – harry lalli aside. “Together they concoct tall tales about the imaginary privatization of BC Hydro, a make-believe crackdown on the poor, and so-called attacks on women and children.” Apart from bc hydro, what about the broken promise not to privatize bc rail and the debacle that is bc ferries and the claim that because they are a “private” enterprise they have every right to send jobs overseas, thereby screwing the B.C. worker. The attacks on the poor, women and children are not made up. Reducing welfare for the most vulnerable, shifting the tax burden onto the most vulnerable, cutting services for the most vulnerable; those are, regurgitated, blatant attacks that border on the criminal. “Under the NDP, one in 10 British Columbians was on welfare. Under our government, more people are working than ever.” Less people are on welfare now because the liberals made sure that it would be harder for people to get welfare. More people are working? Perhaps more people have lower paying, part-time work at the expense of decent paying jobs. Hardly a positive policy for a healthy economy. “Ask yourself this - what is your home worth today, and what was it worth under the NDP?” How the hell are higher housing prices a result of liberal policy? “Under the BC Liberal government forestry is starting to come back throughout BC. Real estate agents' phones are ringing off the hook these days. Housing prices are up and houses are selling.” It’s been very well documented that lower interest rates have affected the housing markets, but like the other liberal lemmings, you somehow attribute this to the Campbell economic miracle. “Ask yourself this - can your child get a job in BC today?” No, because he can’t afford tuition to advance his education. Sorry about such a rushed response, but I’m just in such a state of disbelief with the garbage you’ve spewed. And quite honestly, I’m very interested in what Allan has to say as he does so with intelligence and originality. all you've done is "regurgited" the same pap the liberal propoganda machine has published via the canwest global media empire.

Dosanjh backers heading to Van. BY KATHLEEN WILSON If you’re not a card-carrying supporter of Ujjal Dosanjh, you won’t be representing the Okanagan-Boundary at the NDP leadership convention later this month. It was a clean sweep for supporters of Dosanjh when the local New Democratic Party delegate selection meeting was held Saturday in Osoyoos. But the results of the meeting came as no surprise to constituency chairman Gary Gattrell who last week told the Chronicle that the meeting would be dominated by Indo-Canadians. Indeed, only about 30 of the 350+ NDP members at the meeting were not identifiable as of Indian descent. Those entering the hall were handed a document showing a photograph of Dosanjh. Most of the text on the paper was in Punjabi and listed the nominees – including only one female and two non Indo-Canadians - who would support Dosanjh if sent to the Vancouver convention. All delegates named on the flyer from Oliver and Grand Forks were sent to the convention by acclamation. A vote was held for Osoyoos and Keremeos delegates, but again, those listed on the flyer filled all positions. Travelling to Vancouver from Oliver will be Shivinder Singh Gill, Sher Singh Deol, Kuldeep Singh Bahniwal, Harpal Singh Gill, Harri Singh Butter, Jagdish Singh Gill and Kapur Singh Smagh. Representing Grand Forks will be Harold Funk and Kathleen Rush. (Despite being listed on the Dosanjh slate, both Funk and Rush said they are undecided.) Keremeos will be represented by Jagmail Singh Dhaliwal, Baljit Singh Bhathal, Mohinder Singh Dhaliwal, Charan Jit Singh Sihota and Major Singh Samra. A nomination for Suzanne Stocker failed to win support. Delegates from Osoyoos are Shamsher Singh Brar, Dawinder Singh Bains and Jagnam Singh Brar. Nominee Heather Kelliher was not supported by the meeting. Randy Singh Dhaliwal is attending as a youth delegate, and all four alternates listed on the Dosanjh flyer were also nominated. There were a few rocky moments in the raucous meeting. A challenge was made to Gattrell’s chairmanship when Claus Spiekermann of Grand Forks asked that all nominees state their leadership preference to the meeting. Gattrell had earlier ruled that no one can be compelled to state who they are supporting "because this is a democracy." But Spiekermann disagreed. "The only way I can feel my vote is going to count is to know who these people support," he said. A vote on the chairmanship was held and Gattrell remained in charge. He shared the front of the room with a Punjabi interpreter who translated the entire meeting. When voting occurred, several young men made their way into the audience and gathered groups of elderly and female Indo-Canadians. The men were seen filling out ballots for the groups. Gattrell said last week that he was frustrated by the sudden increase in local NDP memberships, sold by Dosanjh supporters for only $1 – much less than it will cost the association to maintain contact with the new members. He noted the association numbered only 189 members but had grown to 544 in recent months. Of the 355 new members, Gattrell said, about 80 per cent are Indo-Canadian. Some long-time NDP supporters also expressed their dismay at the sudden interest of new members to become delegates. One elderly man left the meeting early, commenting that former members were "out-numbered by about 50 to one."

It's your party so cry if you want to. Your friend allan is nothing more than a whiner who obviously doesn't live in the real world - some sort of Coyote-land-Nirvana I'd guess.

Go ahead and cast your vote for the "real" racists if you like, they won't get far anyway because ordinary people in British Columbia don't suffer from the abundant dementia that runs rampant throughout most of the crowd at the Tyee.

Carole James should be ashamed and resign for endorsing these candidates. However I suppose she will attempt to gain her seat in the same abhorrent and disgusting fashion.

You decide

I'd like to respond to "Coyote" who quotes me and appears to be calling me a shape-shifting yuppie (though do let me know if I've mis-read your post): 1st You don't seem to have a) understood me or b) have read the clarifying follow-ups.

Having emerged from the high-tech field, I understand some of the unreasonable time expectations that can become part of "company culture." I've been trying to research this exact topic since reading about ea_spouse last week: EA Burnaby's expectations, and whether they are working their employees to ill-health. I also would like to know if people in the engineering/software field feel it is a general (i.e. inescapable) problem in Vancouver's high-tech community, and what happens to the 'young grads' after they begin to burn out in their late twenties or mid-thirties. If you're suffering from high tech burnout, or even if you're not, and would like to comment for a published news article, then please contact me:

, and I'll give you my phone number in Vancouver so we can speak. [PS: Am I allowed to make a request like this on the Tyee? I'm just having such a hard time rallying the 'geek forces' around me...]

Talk about "can't win for losing"...for too many years the political system in this province was slanted against certain ethnic groups..the Liberals and Socreds wouldn't allow asians or native people to join their parties!! And the muddleheads went around ranting because "they" weren't "integrating", "they" stayed in cliques and groups, "they" still lived as if they were in India, "they" cooked funny food and "they" made no attempt to Canadianize. Now "they" take a huge stride into full involvement and holy old baldy "they" are a threat, "they" are taking over, "they" still cook funny food.....can you HEAR yourselves? WHY are you so frightened? From what nightmare comes your knee jerk hatred? Excuse me, I am Scots-English, born on Vancouver Island and in my sixty-six years of experience I have yet to be in any way mistreated by any of my "ethnic" (excuse me) neighbours. The food isn't "funny" , it's delicious and costs a fraction of what "our" food costs. For the past two years I have grown white mustard greens because my neighbour doesn't have a garden. I take her a big bag of them every couple of days. She makes curried chicken and other things the names of which I couldn't spell and can hardly say. Want to know something? She loves her kids as much as I love mine. She spoils her husband but that's okay because he bends over backward to spoil her. Now tell me they would in any way be a threat to you because they joined a particular party. Get over yourselves, for crying in the night! If you believe yourself to be Christian then we ALL come from Adam and Eve and that has got to make us cousins. Wipe the slaver off your chins, you look foolish

I don't quite get how this story on technology work got to the NDP leadership race four years ago. Carole James had nothing to do with that. I was at the leadership convention that elected Carole James last year and saw no evidence of bulk memberships.

Carole James publicly supports Lali and Sihota she signed their papers, and the problem with people like anne cameron is they either refuse to see past the end of their noses, or are reality challenged in some other way.

Do you think Lali's sister beat herself up because she married into the wrong family? - I think not, and I know others who are sure he's a beater

Furthermore, I have a partner who wears a turban and I've been to the Temple for food so don't feed me your funny "racist" bullshit. (remember the Nisga).

This is not a technology site, it's a haven for people who have no qualms using ethnic groups in an unethical way to further their political ambitions. Is that the Canada you want?

you decide.

Regurgitated says "Go ahead and cast your vote for the "real" racists if you like, they won't get far anyway because ordinary people in British Columbia don't suffer from the abundant dementia that runs rampant throughout most of the crowd at the Tyee." I am all for expressing our opinions about politicians who are professionals and who should expect peoples opinions to reflect their mood but the above comment is a little harsh! Regurgitated this site is a haven for people to express their opinions unlike other sites where comments get edited! Since it is so close to Xmas and I have very little time to read or post I would like to wish everyone a merry Xmas, including you binny!

I would recommend to anyone in the high tech sector, who wants to improve it for workers, to go scroll back up a few posts to Dave MacKinnon's and take his advice. He is as knowledgable as anyone, has an excellent name in the labour relations industry and can be a determined allie.

As aways you miss the point.

This is not a technology site, it's a haven for people who have no qualms using ethnic groups in an unethical way to further their political ambitions. Is that the Canada you want? You decide.

Jay : The problem Jay is that's how many guys started out. On their own, programming with a few like-minded friends and selling their stuff whereever they could. Once "big money" noticed that there was a market there they literally took it over. These are no longer the days of the TRS-80, nowadays you find yourself a big publisher or you won't be distributed. You can word-of-mouth it on the net but you will make peanuts unless a big publisher comes along and plugs your creation into their chain.

Once again the problem is open borders. You can't protect workers if the companies are free to move off-shore but not lose this market. If they were afraid of losing the North American market there wouldn't be any outsourcing to India, period. Open borders sounds nice but it produces a race to the bottom so let's not pretend that Cdn workers can protect themselves by working for even less.

Anne : over 50% of the gaming market now is female and the average age of gamers is over 35 I believe. Don't look only at games for adolescent boys and think that's all there is.

Mr Lahey : What the article boils down and what others have pointed out is that the management skills of these companies are nil. There's no point in defending bad management in any sector regardless of your politics.

Regurg : shouldn't you go back to Ezra's Shotgun site? They're very receptive to rhetoric and innuendo masquerading as facts.

Frankly I don't give a damn.

Regarding Frank's remark on the average age of gamers being over 35: If you listen to commercial radio that is geared to the mainstream 40+ set (ie. Classic Rock or All-sports formats) or read magazines targetting the same age group, one can be forgiven for still insisting that adolescent boys (and girls) are the target market. Remember, 40 is the new 15.

Mark : That's true :)

Now, how did that go..."the problem with people like Anne Cameron is they either refuse to see past the end of their noses or are reality challenged in some other way." Thank you , son! You may never know what an absolute relief it is to have someone with your percipacitatious outlook FINALLY pin-point the "problem" with me and , it would seem, other people as well. I mean, here I am, sixty-six years old, no criminal record, never committed to a mental asylum, self supporting and ...obviously there is something seriously "wrong" with me. Now that you have so graciously given me the benefit of your astounding insight, could you please suggest some manner of treatment, or even cure? And then, if it isn't too much of a burden on your time, could you please give us the specifications for a perpetual motion machine? Here I thought the world was round, or at least ovoid, but obviously your world is flat and since you are so generous with your words, could you please tell me how the force of gravity works on a flat world? Thank you, son, you have quite made my day!! Your mother must be very proud to know it doesn't matter if you throw away the kid and keep the afterbirth, instead.

First off Allan, we are assuming that the EA workers are overworked and unhappy, however to answer your question, the answer is simple – find another job. By all accounts everyone seems to agree that having EA on your resume is a good thing, so use that to your advantage and find what your looking for; be it a slower pace, more money, whatever. As for EA, if they loose staff to competitors, believe me, they will respond in a much more meaningful way. Business does not like to loose to the competition. And I am by no means anti-union, I do not believe in type formed opinions based on the actions of a few bad apples. I do however greatly despise certain Unions, specifically HEU, CUPE, BCGEU and the BCTF. Other Unions such as the IWA as an example, I have respect for.

If EA and the other programmers-in-a-cubicle factories paid overtime and made that overtime voluntary or hired more people so that overtime was unnecessary or set deadlines based on what can be done within a normal hour workweek, I doubt there would be a lot of complaining. Asking that high tech companies not be exempted from basic labour laws would go a long way towards making people happy.

Peter Tupper's last paragraph in his article is revealing in that what it seems we are dealing with here is delusion. Workers who because they work in business, in a high-tech industry with a certain cachet to it, view the word "worker" as derogatory; that they are somehow above the title, above organizing for workplace rights, even though ironically it appears they have now become almost virtual slaves. Frank makes an important point about the significance of open borders.

In fairness Frank, I think specialty industries require a degree of flexibility in how the workplace operates. That said, an industry can always improve. If EA were to suddenly loose some of its skilled workforce to a competitor, you can bet they would respond swiftly by improving the workplace and/or remuneration and whatever other steps it deems necessary to secure a competitive workforce. No tech.or manufacturing company likes staff turnover, it is costly, and very inefficient. Ultimately the worker needs to understand that they have the skills that get the job done, using those same skills to acquire other employment and ply their “trade” elsewhere is a right that all workers still have. If EA workers took these steps you can bet your bottom dollar the company would react quickly.

Happy Holidays to you too, Anne- I'm off to minus 750 on Friday (ok, -25 or so)- Ontario, but hopefully mounds of snow and blue skies too :) Here's to the longer days!!

I don't have an issue with "flexibility" but its abused. For example, I think that when a deadline is looming most programmers are willing to work overtime for no extra pay. But a 12 or 18 month project will get underway and the first milestone will be in 2 months and the overtime has to begin immediately or there is no way of making that milestone. That's either terrible management or out and out abuse of managerial power.

Not all employers are the same. One company in the southern US used to run 7 days a week, 7am till 10pm for up to a month at a time. However, that company recognised people's effort and paid great bonuses when projects were completed at which time you could take up to 2 months of holidays if you liked.

Here in BC though the overtime is demanded while paying much lower salaries (and that was when the Cdn $ was low too). They get away with it because programming jobs are becoming more scarce due to offshoring and because as Lynn suggested, too many programmers see themselves as being above the "working class". A condition they seem to grow out of as they get older.

So although I'm open to flexibility in some cases, programming is a mature sector, it doesn't need special handouts from government, those days should be over. All those handouts are doing now is rewarding bad management. "High-tech" has to stop being seen as somehow more cool than other trades or professions, it should not be the recipient of special favours in my opinion.

Frank, I'm with you on flex hours. Yes, it's great if it is done on a cooperative basis in which both sides agree to predetermined maximums and mininums. The reality is that the employer gets to agree from a position of authority while the employee more often than not abides by the employer's proposal whether asked or told. In theory cooperative approaches do work, but in reality, and I've walked the walk, the employer decides on the need, sets the conditions and then waits to see who will agree to meet both first. There is a natural power imbalance here that will have most employees attempting to reach the goal set or suggested for them. Current society does a pretty good job of conditioning children to try to please the parent, then the teacher (authority figure), who eventually becomes the boss. For an individual, even one blessed with the ability to negotiate, to stand up and say "no", when others likely will simply accept, creates an uncomfortable climate for true cooperation. Whether the employer means it or not, most workers will process the situation as intimidation even if they don't acknowledge it. I guess my question for Lahey is why, in your theoretical world, where workers can just flit merrily from job to job without loss of income, benefits or other securities, would employers need special treatment by government, especially when all businesses get the same special treatment. That suggests the options for workers is to jump from the frying pan into the fire and to continue buying their jobs. Some option. At the very least, under a union contract, flexible hours and pay would have to be agreed to in writing and would be policed by people who can't be intimiated by a boss with an attitude.

When I think that people are creating social problems (divorce, depression, sleeping deprivation, poor nourishment, family suffering, abandonment of children and spouses, total stress) just to produce a game that will create more sociopaths and columbine's types, I wonder what this so called programmers really learned at their college and universities? I know a group of them. Weird bunch, arrogant, self-righteous and social inepts. I used to work as a low clerk for such an autofit. They had this written to everyone at X_mas time: "Thick skin - It may not save lifes, but it may save the day. Work on it. Frugality This year more than ever, we all must watch every penny. They paid non-programmers minimum wages, they treated each other in a mean spirited manner and the owners made millions. They boasted of having money in safe heavens. Meanwhile programmers came and went just like dirt rags. The experience made me to look at computer workers as stupid, brain washed people. You put a toy in their hands(computer) and they will follow you and sale their soul to the first rober baron. Now can someone tell me how can we continue to subsidize corporate greed and provide free medicare to morons that can't make health living/working choices? Why should I pay for psychistric treatment for people that choose to work in a profession that squashes your self-steem, makes you depressed and force you into prozac, zoloft and suicide? Go figure. I cannot hear anyone telling me we can't afford health care. Yes we can. We just have to stop subsidizind India, Pakistan and others with AID subsidy and they cannot provide the "incentives" to attract our jobs.

The long hours continue, that's true, but it's because of - BAD MANGEMENT PRACTICES AND BAD MANAGERS! That's why there are long hours. Young video gamers who grew up in EA "culture" (in Rob's day) with no practical business sense or formal traning in business management, project management or people management (the most imporant, complicated and vital management to any project) and an inbility to understand these things are interconnected impacting like a domino effect time and again. It's become worse over the years because now they want to now attempt to bring in trained professionals and the ego maniac executive/associate/assistant producers need their asses kissed rather than understanding fundamentals to a project success. "Success", is also under constant redefination at EA usually with a dollar sign beside it. Yes, employees can leave and should leave if not happy and this is a simple concept but it's not that easy when rent is due. No one wants to challenge anything because of fear they will be fired for politically upsetting the apple cart. Yes, people are terminated for this reason more so then "job related performance". When the executives and executive producers do not know or understand project management fundamentals how can they begin to fix it? What have the executive done to improve themsleves and the work place over 5 years? These issues are not new by any stretch. It's been an open sore bleeding for years. Is leadership by example, with integrity and a little common sense with timelines and schedules too much to ask? It's not rocket science. In house leadership training is pointless if not put into practice or followed up on by the most influencial leaders otherwise it's just words and time in classroom when project dates are looming. Organizational culture is top down. Now that's simple and easy. Challenge Everything? I challeng all EA executives to challenge themselves by addressing these issues in themselves as people and then with real head on action. Don't send out another "token" email.

Mr. Lahey, you sure are full of contradictions. In one breath you state, "I do not believe in type formed opinions based on the actions of a few bad apples" and, then to prove how "open-minded" you are, you let this one slip,"I do however greatly despise certain Unions, specifically HEU, CUPE, BCGEU and the BCTF." Reading your posts certainly shows that your hatred for unions comes from the fact that that unions fight for fair wages and we do not wish to be players in the race to the bottom the "low wage Campbell Liberals" wish to sign us up for. What do you know about the BCTF Mr. Lahey? What do you know about what is is they do to protect public education from being sold off to the highest bidder? The BCTF has been around for close to 80 years because of the need for teachers to quit being used as political footballs. We have used our democratic right to organize ( and don't forget...it was Vanderzalm who put the gun to teachers' head to unionize...we did, and have used it to promote a strong public education system...did you read the paper a few weeks ago Mr. Lahey? BC scored in the top 5 nations out of 41 developed nations in reading, writing, math and science...all due to those darned unionized teachers! This government has done nothing to help our system...they have laid off 2,500 teachers and closed 113 schools. We'll see where BC ranks after this damage has been done.) Your anti-union tirades do nothing to explain why unions exist: abusive, exploitative management who power-trip employees like EA seems to be doing. Fix these abuses and unions will no longer need to exist. Like your weekends? Like your universal healthcare? Like an 8 hour day? Like a safer workplace? Like vacation benefits/pensions? Thank a UNION Mr. Lahey. Those EA employees would be wise to start organizing or learn to enjoy living in Bangladesh on $4 a day. I am proud to be a BCTF member and I will not agree to your vision of a low-wage, anti-social version of globalization for me or the students I teach everyday just to line the pockets of the already wealthy so they can squeeze out the middle-class and make us third world. Think about it Mr. Lahey...Canada was built on the backs of these workers you "despise".

I used to read all of the articles on this site and post on many threads. Unfortunately I recently sold my soul to a high-tech, I now don't have any time and have only skimmed this thread. Oh well at least Visa and Mastercard will be happy.

I'll be back in 6 months when I'm physically and mentally drained and have quit my new found employment. Until then, cheers everyone.

A comment on unions was made earlier, that they were responsible for business leaving the country, and that if people didn't like their conditions they should quit and find something else. That doesn't really fix the problem does it. I expect a person of that thinking would walk past a women getting mugged and leave it up to someone else to take the risk and help out. EA keeps exploiting their employees and will put up with the turn over rate as their primary concern is profit. What value is in a relationship of hard working employees and an employer who won't compensate fairly for good results and the inhumane hours it takes to get them. The cost to the employee is imeasurable when you look at sleep disorders, loss of quality of life , marital or relationship problems or long term health issues that are borne from working long hours for long terms. I don't advocate working those hours for any amount of money but if it is a condition of employment you must insist on proper compensation. If the government won't do it in the Labor Standars Act then you must engage a union to establish a base of fairness. If the business goes to China, what have we lost? We have lost a company who exploits local employees, treats them badly, is unfair, and shows no loyalty to their community. We can't compete with the wages and conditions of China, but this is where the EA's of the world are leading us. Look at the film industry!

I'm at my last stop in this industry and I know of many people that are feeling the same way. if this one doesn't work out. f*ck it. I'm gone. The industry is wounded , and it is self-inflicked. The word will eventually get out, especially with posts like this everywhere. Karma: I hope EA gets stomped one day or snuffed out like they did to SEGA. Peter look that one up. To those EA managers reading this. How do you sleep at night? maybe you get off on it, you think your just doing your job. ruining lives. just remember your head is on the chopping block waiting list too. keep f*cking stressing people out. Perhaps some will go postal on you and put of your sorry existance. it won't be me though I'm too burnt out. I'll laugh my ass off though. you f*cking deserve it. Especially HR and ML.

I decided to quit high tech after a stint in Silicon Valley in 2000-2001 (reading "Microserfs" by Douglas Coupland only solidified my decision, while making me laugh my ass off and shake my head in dismay - and that was written in the early 90s!!!). If you or any of your buddies working in high tech (or who used to, like me) would be willing to help out a budding writer (me) I'd like to hear from you, either on- or off-record. Let me guess... there are few female programmers/engineers and they get burnt out even faster? My email is

; personal website is www.sfu.ca/~acoppin (I posted an earlier comment in this thread too....)

There are many insightful comments here that I won't repeat (and a few ludicrous ones that have already been effectively exposed as such). The only thing I have to add is my recollection of EA's evident eagerness to come off the fence in the last provincial election. The steady procession of "celebrities" passing through the EAC environment gets old pretty quick ("whose entourage is clogging the caf lineup today?"), so it takes something special to generate even the slightest interest. It's hard not to notice, though, when your American employer hosts an extravagant media event and photo-op for an opposition candidate in an upcoming election. I wonder if the studio would still be here had he not won. Enjoy democracy.

Well, Allan, Coyote, Jeff and a fewspeak others speak of the solution: Unionise, promote governments that will legislatedecent working conditions and hours, etc. But there is another thing here -- boycott "offshore" stuff. Don't buy it. Don't shop at Wal-Mart. Limit imported goods like gamesa dn other electronic things. Right away, things will change. Think about it. When we buy a toaster (all made offshore at this time now), we are paying nearly Canadian prices for a vastly inferior product than what we made before. Not only that, we know the workers are virtual slaves! Why do we do this? Why buy Nike? Why drink Cokme? We KNOW these companies are willing to murder any "offshore" workers who try to unionize! We are part of the probolem when we buy "offshore" products. We are ensuring our kids won't have decent jobs. Even when we vacation in places like Thailand and the Phillipines where the sale of children to the perverts of the world is encouraged, we are allowing such inequities and evils to continue---which will eventually put our own children at risk! Why can't we coooperate, instead of compete in all things? And why don't we Guillotine people like Phillip Knight (Nike) and the Waltons (Wal-Mart) who have $$$BILLIONs, but are unwilling even to share a fraction of their profits with those who make the products they sell? These people are using up the world's resources without giving adequate return to others in it.

Well, Allan, Coyote, Jeff and a fewspeak others speak of the solution: Unionise, promote governments that will legislatedecent working conditions and hours, etc. But there is another thing here -- boycott "offshore" stuff. Don't buy it. Don't shop at Wal-Mart. Limit imported goods like gamesa dn other electronic things. Right away, things will change. Think about it. When we buy a toaster (all made offshore at this time now), we are paying nearly Canadian prices for a vastly inferior product than what we made before. Not only that, we know the workers are virtual slaves! Why do we do this? Why buy Nike? Why drink Cokme? We KNOW these companies are willing to murder any "offshore" workers who try to unionize! We are part of the probolem when we buy "offshore" products. We are ensuring our kids won't have decent jobs. Even when we vacation in places like Thailand and the Phillipines where the sale of children to the perverts of the world is encouraged, we are allowing such inequities and evils to continue---which will eventually put our own children at risk! Why can't we coooperate, instead of compete in all things? And why don't we Guillotine people like Phillip Knight (Nike) and the Waltons (Wal-Mart) who have $$$BILLIONs, but are unwilling even to share a fraction of their profits with those who make the products they sell? These people are using up the world's resources without giving adequate return to others in it.