When the NDP allows full access to democratic participation in its policies and platform to its members then and only then will it represent both the social and environmental concerns of British Columbians. The top down regime created by Clark, Meggs and others in the Premier's Office led to the the disasterous defeat in 2001. Has it really changed? Who manipulates policy and platform behind the scenes now? Are there new faces with new ideas involved in policy making? I've read both the Green Book 2001 and the draft version of the NDP's environmental policy 2004. Interesting to note: The NDP's 2004 policy seems awfully similar to the BC Green's Green Book of 2001. It's rather disappointing that the NDP uses so much of its time and energy trying to destroy the Greens while giving lip service opposition to the BC Liberals social, environmental and economic policies. Where was Carol James and other NDP officers during the Olympic Bid Debate? Or the RAV debate where the BC Liberals have thrown $465 million at a dubious project when seniors have to sell doillies and sock pockets to raise money for diagnostic equipment for their local hospitals? What are the socially and environmentally redeeming factors of this heavily subsidized public project? By the way, who is Ms. Berman and what contribution has she made to the Green Party of BC in the last 4 years? Before trumpetting the Canwest/Global spin, why didn't the author of this piece question Ms. Berman. I used to belong to the NDP but like many others disillusioned with the NDP executive power model (the back room gang), we'll look for another real alternative rather than more window dressing.

plg, I think you have pretty much confirmed what Alisa quoted the only elected Green in BC and probably in Canada as saying. Let me repeat it for you:"The Greens have a problem - they think they're right and people will just cleave to that," stated Vancouver school board trustee Andrea Reimer,who just happens to be that single elected Green. So there it is plg, in simple black and white.

plg you say that the NDP has used lots of time and energy trying to destroy the Greens. I havn't heard that at all. I hear the NDP saying this. If you vote for the Greens, then you are voting for the Liberals. I say pick the lesser of the two evils, and leave the Greens out of it. Greens will never get enough support as they only attract idealists (the young who have no one to support or care for but themselves and haven't quite got a grip on reality as yet) and eliteists (the very rich who can afford to have any opinion they want).

i am an ndp member and a union member who voted green last provincial election, and I may vote green again. but my vote will be determined on the type of campaign that the ndp runs on. if carole james continues to drift to the center and continues to say that we may have to live with many of the liberal cuts under a future ndp govt and bring in more business voices...you can be sure i will vote green again. It seems that the ndp is taking my vote for granted just because i am oppossed to the gordo liberals. but, I want to see an active ndp campaign against fish farming. Say you will close it down and legislate it on to land! lets hear the ndp say it will re-instate conservation officers in wildernees areas and invest in a culture of greening the urban environment. At the same time that the ndp edges to the center, the liberals/tories will simply shift the goal posts by moving further to the right as well. This contributes to the whole culture moving right. the ndp should stand up for the working people with a bold positive and emotional message otherwise i will be casting a vote for the future: the green party.

The job of whatever party is elected should be to look after PUBLIC interests instead of selectively addressing private ones. Opponents of the NDP often place themselves there because they see the NDP as a party who robs Peter (business and the upper class) to pay Paul (welfare recipients and union employees). Foes of the right wing vote NDP often because they see the Liberals (the right wing's current incarnation) as a party that robs Paul to pay Peter (ie. rips off labour and transfers taxation expenses to the lower classes in order to benefit the rich). One would think Green issues might transcend this political polarity. We all breathe essentially the same air, fight the same public health problems, etc. As has been said about religion, we have just enough religion to make us hate one another but not enough to make us love one another. The same might be said of politics. Green issues, which ought to be of concern to everyone, could be an area of political attention to bring us a bit more together. In a time of global warming, increasing population, threats of flu pandemics, and other more or less non-partisan challenges it seems to me that the party that best addresses such issues will be the party that will win the most public support in the long run. (Of course, as has also been said before, in the long run we'll all be dead.)

I think that there are alot of people that actually believe that the NDP is controlled by special interest groups simply because the press (completely owned and controlled by right wing) has used the "big lie" technique successfully for decades. They just keep repeating the same old lies while they themselves are doing exactly what they are attacking the NDP for. Whenever there is a real look taken at the facts it can be clearly seen that the BC Liberals receive almost all of their money from a very few large corporations and very little from individuals. The same studies always show the NDP recieving approx 5% of their money from unions and almost all the rest from individuals, the complete opposite of the BCLiberal/Canwest "big lie". The same can be seen in the increased gambling in BC. The Liberals berated the NDP for increasing gambling and promised to stop it, but they have done the exact opposite and have added alcohol with gambling to top it off. This pattern is repeated over and over. Now, with regard to the Green party. They truly do not have a full slate of policies and are a special interest group by definition. We all know that the Green party stands absolutely no chance of forming the next government in BC. We also can see that the BC Liberals will completely decimate our environment if they are re-elected. The changes they are making, such as turning ALL of our crown lands over to special interest groups (logging and mining) are irreversible. They are legal binding agreements that future generations will be held to, regardless of the need for change to protect our environment. It is absolutely imperative that the BC Liberals are defeated in the next election, there will be NOTHING left if they are not. No more new parks or protected area's, no restrictions on fish farms, no stopping coal fired generating plants that will export all of the energy south to fill a few billionaires pockets even further. The only thing the people of BC will get will be the pollution. Imagine no more wild salmon or choking on the fumes from the extra cars funnelled into Burnaby and Vancouver with a twinned Port Mann bridge. Make no mistake about it, the BC Libera/Canwest big lie machine is hard at work. There is very little chance that the Liberals will be defeated even with the Green vote behind the NDP. Many people will be swayed by the expensive ads and constant one sided reporting of the press. So here's my challenge to Green supporters, members of their executive and candidates, put your support where your mouth is. Everyone talks a good line but in the end all Greens have a respect for and love of our environment that should never be shaken, so show it! Vote NDP and help defeat what will surely be the final "nail in the coffin" of our environment. Put the environment ahead of your political ambitions....it is ahead of your political ambitions, isn't it???.....

I voted Green last provincial election. It was a protest vote. I'll be voting for the NDP this time. You have to make your vote count this time around.

Amen!

Chris - I won't be voting Green or NDP that's for sure. But this time around, regardless of who the winner is, I am going to make sure that he or she does more than just collect their monthly paycheck, and I hope you will do the same. (I'll likely end up with the same representative who in my view barely measured up to the previous powerhead.)

What a pity BC doesn't have a proportional ballot. Then people who really want to vote Green could freely do so without letting the damn Illiberals in and the Greens and the NDP could form a coalition.

That would be frightening.

As one who once voted NDP, I can assure you I'm not going there again. Why?? Here's three reasons: Adrian Dix, Corky Evans, Harry Lali ... all brushing off their mouldering suits to help lead the 'new-era' NDP (sic). Gimme a break. The zealots are back ...

Here's reason number four: I have helped to craft GP policy and I avidly contribute to discussion on influencing government to adopt moderate policies aligned with principles of sustainability. I have little interest in contributing to the politics of extremism that have 'doominated' BC since .... 1850?? with the only hiccup I note in recent times being the election and all-too-shortened-term of M Harcourt, who headed for the exit when the jabbing of the zealot's knives (led by Clarke and Dix) in his spleen got too uncomfortable.

A third political party that captures a significant part of the electorate is long overdue in BC. Next may, I hope that voters cast their ballot according to which party offers the soundest options, and NOT according to the fearful scenarios posited by the party pundits. I also urge voters to carefully review the GP platform, I think they will find it a welcome break from the politics of extremism.

As one who once voted NDP, I can assure you I'm not going there again. Why?? Here's three reasons: Adrian Dix, Corky Evans, Harry Lali ... all brushing off their mouldering suits to help lead the 'new-era' NDP (sic). Gimme a break. The zealots are back ...

Here's reason number four: I have helped to craft GP policy and I avidly contribute to discussion on influencing government to adopt moderate policies aligned with principles of sustainability. I have little interest in contributing to the politics of extremism that have 'doominated' BC since .... 1850?? with the only hiccup I note in recent times being the election and all-too-shortened-term of M Harcourt, who headed for the exit when the jabbing of the zealot's knives (led by Clarke and Dix) in his spleen got too uncomfortable.

A third political party that captures a significant part of the electorate is long overdue in BC. Next may, I hope that voters cast their ballot according to which party offers the soundest options, and NOT according to the fearful scenarios posited by the party pundits. I also urge voters to carefully review the GP platform, I think they will find it a welcome break from the politics of extremism.

"whereas Green support was up from two to eight percent, suggesting that their converts came from people disgruntled by the Progressive Conservative-Alliance merger, an Ipsos-Reid poll announced before the June 2004 federal election." writes the author.

While I agree with those Green Party supporters who say that this is certainly an over simplification of their movement, it is pretty clear even from what we hear from Greens here, that small "c" conservative ideology certainly does holds much sway there now. This bullshit attempt to potray themselves as being above the "tainted" right-left divide, for example, is certainly one manifestation of that. All the while, in practice, cleaving to a business class view of economics and social priorities, built no less than the current NDP or the Liberals, around creating a business friendly "incentive" based environment. Which net effect is typically very much more broadly "people" unfriendly in actual outcomes, tax and benefit wise, especially the lower placed one is amongst the various class strata. Only the trade union movement, it seems, comes in for serious "regulatory", as opposed to "incentive" based control where it impinges upon the perceived "public interest", such as in the case of public workers' right to strike; maintaining pretty much the classic right wing tradition across all the business class political tendencies; whereupon the carrot is the method of choice one uses on the ruling class, and the stick, only on the working class. (And which is not to say there is no support for either the "official" Greens or broader green/environmental interests amongst the working class, for their certainly is. As there is for Liberals and the Alliance. It takes all kinds to make a world. Welll, it may not, but we have them anyway.)

The point being, of course, as I never weary of pointing out, on the basis of the available empirical evidence, all extant political parties centre stage in the socio-political system right now, are pressed cheek to cheek, nose and genitalia to butt, hip and thigh around the same central black hole into which they are all seeking to enter at the same time together, including now, the more heretofore, extreme rightist Canadian Alliance, dressed up as Conservatives. Or so all are seeking to appear.

In the midst of an economic, social and environmental time that fair screams out for change and a challenging of Big Business class presumptions, it is a fundamental opting by all nonetheless, for no change-, rather for "business as usual". All of which shows in evolving child and household poverty rates, declining working class incomes and wellbeing, deteriorating air pollution levels (of which a new national study has just been released), in epidemic sea lice levels in the most senstive wild salmon habitat and passageways on the west coast, (WildCanada has just announced), whilst the wild salmon themselves continue to decline and go the way of east coast cod. All serving to demonstrate in the laboratory of real life, the real outcomes of these "business friendly" policies being pursued by one and all.

Whereas what is really clearly needed, is a political movement that seriously challenges all the bullshit presumptions of these same "business friendly" policies being pursued by virtually one and all political parties, from Canadian Alliance to the NDP, sandwiching the Liberals and Greens in there, all around the anal centre.

"Other representatives of the new environmental voters aren’t necessarily convinced the Greens are the only party that can save the world." Alisa further writes.

To say the fucking least. That being about as good a concluding observation as could be made. To which one could only add or substitute the NDP and all the other political groupings extant in the country currently, in their turn-, and play it again Sam .

The above piece was from moi.

Campbell Liberal and NDP are two sides of the same coin. Despite all this end of the world, fear mongering by NDP partisans, it’s still heads they win, tails we lose. Both parties are tied into a growth economy that depends upon unsustainable industrial expansion. They will both continue to promote economic practices that benefit big business and big labor to the detriment of our province. After all, the NDP initiated the Olympic bid, doubled the number of farmed fish produced in BC, and gave the green light to old growth logging in Clayoquot sound, creating the largest demonstration of civil disobedience in Canadian history. NDP leaders called environmentalists eco-terrorists. Two sides of the same coin! Good cop bad cop. Kerry or Bush. You folks are dancing to their tune. Have you heard them speak about conservation and limits to growth? Until you are ready to reduce your consumption and redefine the way we do business in this province, you will simply be the dancing dogs in a corporate circus, no matter the political ringmaster.

Robert East, I find it a bit ironic that you would use the term limits to growth, which is the title of a quite interesting argument and book put out by the Group of Rome in the 1960s. Quite a read. While you didn't endorse the Greens in your summation of the NDP and our current fascist regime, it is certainly implied. I find that fascinating because the current crop of Greens while, in their best holier-than-thou attacks, fail to notice their own leader's claim that she can work with business. That certainly sounds to me she is implying that she'll compromise as quick as anyone else if it means getting elected. Better make room for yet another dancing dog.

"Until you are ready to reduce your consumption and redefine the way we do business in this province, you will simply be the dancing dogs in a corporate circus, no matter the political ringmaster." writes Robert East.

Whilst true, begs the observation that in the prevailing corporatist system, that we are in fact talking wide,wide disparities in consumption between the top and bottom class strata. The point being more true at the top class end, and diminishing in relevance moving towards the bottom, where there is much already a problem with "inadequate" consumption opportunity. Which suggests to me that, lying at the heart of the problem, if we are serious about the problem of over-consumption, which is indeed a huge problem overall, that along with that has to be 'fessed up to and dealt with, the parallel problems of gross economic and power "inequalities" within status quo society, both of which feed into each other, making each and the other, and over consumption moving to the top end of society, so intransigent and problematic to deal with.

And if there is one single key that offers the greatest potential for opening the door to "real" solutions, it begins with this problem of "unequal power" in prevailing society, and our narrow view of democracy, especially economic power and democracy-, imbued as it is with the primary tension creating gender and class elements.

So, fundamentally, I agree with you about the consumption issue. Though it is necessary to view the problem standing on its feet rather than its head.

I know this has been said a thousand times before already, but I will say it again. Under first past the post the Greens will never win a seat in BC because they will never get above 20% support, never. Green supporters need to get over this fact and realize that when the vote Green in the next election they are helping support the Liberals and we know where they stand on environmental issues.

For myself, it comes down to the question, which is better- re-electing a government that has proven itself to be outright liars with a definite corporate bottom line mindset, and not electing any Greens, or throwing one`s vote to the NDP, and giving the NDP a chance to govern. Carole James is not Glen Clark. I say it`s time for a woman Premier in BC, and Adrienne Carr doesn`t have much of a chance. Put the vote where it counts this time around. If Campbell gets a second term, it will be really scary.

I agree Parkhurst. If Campbell gets a second term kiss goodbye to all the feel good announcements we are hearing right now. It will be more bad news; more privatization, less regulation etc etc. How will the Greens feel then? With James we'll see a Greener province than we have now that's for sure.

GO LIBERALS, I hear a lot of the same old rhetoric and not much truth. You forgot to mention how the Liberals meet once a month finding new ways to take money from the poor and give it to the rich, that’s a very important fact. And by the way many Greens do vote Liberal because although they do support the environmental movement they do not support the NDP’s policies of economic suicide.

I think the Greens should become Liberals, (the lessor of the two evils) and then they should nominate the candidate of their choice. Mr, Green Jeans, you missed Moe - was that intentional? ( and I entirely disagree with you about Harcourt.)

"I think the Greens should become Liberals," writes Jean Binette.

Don't laugh. Jean B The Liberal may just get her wish one day. Certainly, given the rancor and bad blood between them, and the fact The Greens are no less closer ideologically to one than the other, indeed, probably closer to the Neocon Libs, it is more likely this than they will move to the NDP-, at least talking the top leadership end of the Greens. (Already, Adrienne talks pretty much like a Neocon Liberal, to me.) But then, even the NDP appears only a Zig Zag paper thin more distant as well.

In the political bed of the status quo, there is much humping and bumping going on amongst strange bed fellows. With the emphasis on "strange". :-)

There is no bad blood between me any Greens that I know, and if there are greens with rancor towards me, I don't know about them. ---- A vote for the NDP is a vote for Moe. Now that would be "strange". (in my view.) I note your use of Zig and Zag as an example. Just how thin is that?

Jim States: "And by the way many Greens do vote Liberal because although they do support the environmental movement they do not support the NDP’s policies of economic suicide."

Same old rhetoric and not much truth just like you said no? How can you judge the polices of a party (the NDP) that has not drawn up a platform yet?

"There is no bad blood between me any Greens that I know, and if there are greens with rancor towards me, I don't know about them..." states Jean.

Which was my point actually. I was referring to between the NDP and Greens, though on second read, I was not very clear, I agree.

"I note your use of Zig and Zag as an example. Just how thin is that?"

P> You have obviously never rolled a joint either. :-)

Well I suppose that's what happens after you roll a joint. I said "I think the Greens should become Liberals, (the lessor of the two evils) and then they should nominate the candidate of their choice ..." - which was my point exactly.

KWL writes "I know this has been said a thousand times before already, but I will say it again. Under first past the post the Greens will never win a seat in BC because they will never get above 20% support, never. Green supporters need to get over this fact and realize that when the vote Green in the next election they are helping support the Liberals and we know where they stand on environmental issues.” Green supporters no longer buy into this logic, they used too, and they do not anymore. I submit that if you are looking for green support politically you will need a sound platform that the Green supporters will endorse. Simply coming in and saying “I won’t be as bad as the guy before” is no longer good enough for green voters. How green can the NDP really be when they have thousands of memebrs in the IWA to answer to? The days of having your cake and eating too for the NDP are over, the Green party is proof. That is somethign that the NDP needs to get over.

Stop the progress, vote N.D.P. a subsidiary of the B.C.G.E.U.

I voted Green last time and I really regretted it. (I went with the fuzzy name, but then realized they are in essence right wing.) This time I will vote NDP because I have an environmental conscience AND a social conscience.

Evidence, evidence all over the place, as to the class allegiances of The Greens-, and it's not with the organized working class. That much is fucking sure. Along with business, they want to see a "disorganized" working class, standing individually cap in hand before the bosses.

Whatever Greens may say that is even true about the NDP, they themselves are even more blatant in their support for the economic and political status quo. The IWA may represent the interest of working folks, however imperfectly, as seen at any given point in time, but constantly evolving, whereas there is no mystery about where the "so called" Greens see their interests aligned either. And it ain't with folks at the end of society struggling to survive, pay the bills and raise families-, but with their Overlords.

Read no further than the very statements of the Greens here, out of their own mouths, to see on which side of the social class divide they line up. The Greens are ever more on the extreme right, a handshake distance away from the Neocon Liberals, not "above" partisan politics, as they would have you believe. The Greens are but another party of Big Business "Blue" themselves, dressed up in leprechaun green, so as to be out playing tricks on the masses, with their eye really on the pot of ruling class gold at the end of the rainbow. (Not that the IWA is very often a whole hell of a lot better, mind. Which is what is really tragic about the current state of politics, including trade union politics, within current capitalism. And I say that as a trade unionist. It all being a measure of the full change that has to occur within what passes for "progressive" politics within the status quo state of affairs.)

You see Coyote, here is the real issue; voters have become more demanding. They ask for more, and they expect more. With the emergence of enhanced communications technology; voters are better informed and specifically more so when it comes to issues of a common interest to particular group. If they like what they see, they vote for if, and if not, they advocate against the government-du-jour like crazy. It used to be that parties could always count on certain segments of the community for support – Not anymore. Nowadays it is a “what have you done for me lately” mentality that prevails, and some groups are far more difficult to satisfy than others. The environmental movement in particular. In fact, NDP environmental policy of the 90’s was partially credited for being one of the significant, contributing reasons on how the NDP destroyed our provincial economy so decisively. And in return on Eday they watched the Green Party get more votes, while traditional NDP support form the Forestry, and in particular Mining industries dropped like a rock with a Trudeau caliber salutation offered. A definite loose/loose scenario. Of course I won’t bother to tell you that these hi-paying jobs are back on the increase again since the Liberals took over, that would mean saying something positive about BC today, a concept not known in these circles. Of course this puts Carole James in a pickle dish...after all, she so dearly needs to re-direct that green support, however at the same time (and something that the NDP does not tell you about) Forestry and Mining job are back on the rebound again in BC, of course the guys who have these jobs are well aware of this, and up until 2001 they used to call the NDP home. So an interesting conundrum indeed. Certainly put some pressure on the NDP platform to take a position on key issues. Will Carole speak of the IWA as lowly as you do ?

Yes, you can paint your target from the above post on me. Surpise, surprise.

Before you take another toke coyote. To be clear are you in support of Moe Sihota? So far nothing you have written changes the view. I said "I think the Greens should become Liberals, (the lessor of the two evils) and then they should nominate the candidate of their choice ..." Also, is the "F" word necessary?

Hello again Mr. Lahey I thought you had departed -I would say that Liberals don't know where Greens stand on environmental issues. That's why Greens need to become Liberals and nominate candidates of their choosing.

"I won’t bother to tell you that these hi-paying jobs are back on the increase again since the Liberals took over," says anonymous.

Which is complete and utter balderdash, of course. I believe it was the Vancouver Sun reported, front page if I remember correctly, a week or so ago, in fact, (quickly confirmed by my Mrs. who never lies :-) known to me, that full time, high paying jobs, necessary to support families and communities, are continuing to decline in BC, while it is part time, minimum wage jobs that are actually increasing. So it is important to get this much right, at least, if anything else you say is intended to actually have any credibility.

It is not enough to just pretend you know.

Additionally, it is not just in forestry and mining that "relatively" high paying jobs occur, most of which in fact ship most of their real "added value" to the United States, the "imperial heartland" to which we are too much beholden and "dependant" upon. The real economic development that needs to occur in this country and this province, in fact, is outside of these exclusive areas, reducing these offshore "bulk" shipments, and instead, still, after all these years of obvious need, developing the industrial and manufacturing capacity to process them and add value through finished product manufacture ourselves.

Which again is, what is wrong with the current and persistant "neocolonial" model pursued by all status quo "business friendly" political groupings within this country, from Neocon Liberals to NDP and Greens. To the degree that we will actually need an economy, and we will, even within a reduced population and reduced consumption environment, the real need is to get away from the over reliance on the foreign, typically US dominated, raw forestry, petroleum and gas pumping, and mining model of economic development. Instead we need to complete, as in round out in a finished and full way, our economic development. This, US dependant capitalism and a chickenshit toadying ruling class within this country, continues to prove itself incapable of doing, for all the "business friendly" policies put in place by all political parties, at great expense and deprivation to ordinary folks.

Conclusion? We need to break this ruling class "power" monopoly model, and evolve a more "popular" based economic and political power model, that brings to bear in direction, management and planning, the interests of the far greater community (not just trade unions, though including them), now shut out and shunted, like I say, cap in hand to the sidelines.

Neocon capitalism as practised by the Neocon Liberals, the NDP, and proposed now by the Greens, is already a demonstrable failure. Time to move on and develop an alternative model and experience.

For which we are the rest of us merely waiting for the light bulb of realization to come on in the popular mindset. But which I have no doubt will eventually happen here-, the way you Liberal fuckers are running the province and the country, and the way it is being proposed to continue running it, by Conservatives, NDPers and Greens alike.

You are all hooped.

Further Mr. Lahey, IWA members are "Human beings too"! (at least according to Jack Munro) I would venture there are plenty of Greens among them who are looking for work. Another huge parking lot is not exactly an environmental success . Liberals need to become greens as much as greens need to become liberals. It's a matter of survival. - Suzuki/Gordon.

Yes the further Mr. Lahey post was mine. - Coyote wrote "we need to break this ruling class "power" monopoly model we have..." that Coyote, is exactly my point, Greens should become liberals and vice versa. But why are you so angry! And what about Moe?

There are no longer any liberals in the BCliberals. They don't exist. It is pure neo-con real estate now. There are no liberals left for the Greens to become. Not within the party. The BCliberal record speaks for itself. Their MLAs voted almost unananimously for every piece of legislation brought forward by their government under Mr. Campbell, good little soldiers all. Hardly one of them stood up for their constituents even though petition after petition was presented on areas of concern for the citizens they supposedly represent.

The "liberal" in BCliberals ended the day Gordon Campbell deviously ousted Gordon Wilson from the party and crowned himself "King of the World" on the now BCliberal proud ship Titanic, (it's party plank liberally snake-oiled as well).

And I'm with Coyote in that there is very little original thought now being demonstrated by any of the parties. They are all hanging on faded laurels.

Not so fast Coyote, yes you can spout paragraph after paragraph and cherry pick numbers all you like, but when it comes to mining in this province, no way are you pulling another fast one. FACT in 1991 there were 30 “significant” (meaning big money) mines operating in BC - after the NDP was finally ousted there were only 12 left standing. An industry that directly employed over 16,000 people was decimated to just less than 8,000 people after the NDP inflicted damage was done. This is an industry that on average pays $ 80K a year in Union wages to card carrying NDP membership And let’s not forget the IWA – coastal mills output is up 30% this year over last and even the Heartlands mills are pumping out an extra 12 % compared to last year - More output means more people are working, and Mills pay good Union wages. This is good news for everyone in BC, except of course the NDP who know all to well, in today’s day and age carrying a Union card just might mean voting for the party that actually delivers the jobs. Small wonder why the left is trying to pretend that the good jobs no longer exist, is the NDP really unaware that the big money resource sector jobs are coming back on track, or are they to busy spending all of their time trying to unionize the Wal-Mart’s in this Province to notice?

Not so fast with you own spouting Mr. Lahey - "pumping" more lumber and digging giant holes isn't the answer Greens are looking for, so all that extra output and cherry picking isn't "good news for everyone in BC. More output means depleted resources. You might notice that not every "card carrying union member votes NDP. Obviously for some undisclosed reason you hold a great deal of animosity towards Union Members. I doubt if there are many Wal-mart employees pulling down 80k a year, so what do you pay your truckers with? (food stamps?)

Mr. Lahey- with your apparent right wing slant you couldn`t have picked a more inappropriate moniker. The actor that plays your namesake was a candidate for the NDP in eastern Canada a while back.

Regardless of the number of "holes" being dug or not dug in the province, or the amount of acreage going to deforestation parking lots, I have already dealt with Mr. Lahey's argument immediately above, and will not repeat myself. You still do not address the problem of the need for an "alternative", and a more rounded economic development model, as opposed to the current, fundamentally neocolonial, over "resource extraction/waste" dependant model-, the bulk of which feeds into Empire USA needs, and makes us overly dependant on finished foreign products and depletes our own resource base. I dislike wasting my time tail chasing with NeoLib apologists in any case. (See Lynn's explanation of "liberals and Liberals" above. Which works for me.)

And Jean, you amuse me. Though I see nothing wrong with a little cussing, frankly. I like the colour and "from the gut" feel of it. It's like talking dirty with a woman in bed. :-) I will though, so as not to overly offend you, "attempt" to restrain myself "some". :-)

I scarcely know Moe (Moe, Curly, and Larry? :-), to be able to make any kind of serious assessment of him. I live in a remote area of the province where he is only barely known to me, as an exNDP cabinet minister, with whom I do not recall being impressed particularly. (He was forced out in one of the many media created scandals the NDP suffered through, I seem to recall. And he is currently in some kind of radio/tv talk show.) Indeed, the last NDPer I was impressed with was Tommy Douglas, frankly. Since, they have all scarcely been noteworthy at all. (Though Stephen Lewis I do admire some, for a principledness I perceive in the man. Likewise, Svend Robinson, before he self-destructed,unfortunately. Though I do like this Parrish woman, disgraced MP for the Federal Liberals, just about as much.) Though I am some curious as to the source of your obvious hostility to this man, Moe.

And, like I said, I basically agree with you; the "official" Greens, being fundamentally an "emerging" right wing manifestation in the broader environmental movement, in my growing view of them at least, are probably closer to the Neocon Liberals indeologically, than they are to the NDP. And given the level of the rancor and bad blood between the Greens and NDP, I would certainly not be surprised if the "official" Greens, at the leadership level certainly, either went over to the Neocon Libs one day, or strategically voted for them in the interim, rather than the NDP.

You are as persistant as you are straight laced, Jean. :-) My impression being that you are some kind of a classic, small "l" liberal, before the meaning of the term became so corrupted by the current crop of Neocon Liberals around Hawaii 50 Gordo. (To which, being honest with you, I am much further "left", frankly. Though I generally much prefer a liberal to a Liberal. Again, see Lynn above.) And I certainly enjoyed your last post to our rotund, cigar chomping Mr. Lahey. (My "cartoon" image creation of him.) A good day to you.

Actually Binette, your comment “ “pumping" more lumber and digging giant holes isn't the answer Greens are looking for” is precisely my point. The Green Party interests will no longer sit back and endorse (read vote) for a government that does not cater to their agenda. Yes, we have three major mines that have re-opened in the province since the NDP left government, and record exploration investment again in BC as well – however as you have rightly pointed out, not something that the green party will endorse or vote for. More mines means more hi-paying Union jobs, and I actually believe that is a good thing for everyone, our province included. In remote rural areas these types of jobs support families and communities. Pointing out that traditionally these resource-based workers have voted for the NDP was not meant to be an attack, but rather to illustrate that many are now voting for the government that brought in these jobs. This thread is about where the Green vote will go, and from my perspective it will no longer go just to the NDP as was the case in the past, nor is it likely to vote Liberal for the obvious growth in the resource sector. The Green vote will go where they see significant environmental policy, and lacking that will continue to go it alone – Catering to environmental voters as well all know, comes at the expense of the resource sector votes, not to mention revenue dollars that we all no governments love to spend, so for Carole James and the NDP you are in pickle as you can no longer cater to both sides of the coin as was the case in the past, or as I said earlier, expect to have your cake and eat it too. The Voters (especially Green) will no longer stand for it.

Coyote writes: "Read no further than the very statements of the Greens here, out of their own mouths, to see on which side of the social class divide they line up. The Greens are ever more on the extreme right, a handshake distance away from the Neocon Liberals, not "above" partisan politics, as they would have you believe. The Greens are but another party of Big Business "Blue" themselves, dressed up in leprechaun green, so as to be out playing tricks on the masses, with their eye really on the pot of ruling class gold at the end of the rainbow."

What drivel! The GP - far more than the N-Dippers or the neo-cons - are allied with small business, that is, those enterprising people who work like hell to earn a living wage, without the benefit of management or union-derived perks. To me these people are the heroes of this province, far more than the union hall subscribers who cry foul or 'shop steward' every time they are called upon to do some real work. Your head's in the clouds, Coyote, you should come down to earth where there's more oxygen, and while you're at it have a chat with the people really working in this province to make ends meet.

Wow, yesterday appears to have been quite a day for revelations on this thread. More high paying jobs being created, mining firms abandoning South America to take advantage of the our own South American-styled crisis politics we now enjoy in BC. Trucking magnates criticizing unions for attempting to help Walmart workers attain a livable wage (why not his employees who I suspect might benefit from a union as well). Coyote blowing enough hand-rolled smoke to affect our friend Binette, who, suddenly freed from the mind-numbing constraints of capitalist mumbo-jumbo, finally understands that Mr. Lahey is so colour-challenged he sees black as white. Yup, training wage ($6ph) or part time Walmart jobs at less than $9ph are apparently high paying jobs, according to Lahey, while jobs that paid $20+ph and had benefits won't be forced onto workers any more if we get another Liberal government in May. And how about the Greens? Will their leader Adriane or some of her more zealous supporters on these pages please explain why the Greens had to meddle in the BC Constitutional Assembly efforts to re-invent our electoral system? Aside from the fact Carr and her supporters shot themselves in the foot by their blatent attempts to influence the CA, it raises another important point. All three parties had previously agreed they wouldn't interfere. It seems Carr has about as much credibility as that drunk driver who promised he wouldn't rip up union contracts. It's all been so educational, especially the increasingly illogical and desperate rantings of Liberal apologists who realize, as we all do, that change is coming in exactly five months and one week from today.

Allan, Perhaps you are upset that the word has finally gotten out that the resource sector is back on track today and this means more hi-paying Union Jobs in BC, kind takes away from the easily winnable Wal-Mal argument doesn’t it. In fact BC has the highest percentage of people (57.2%) earning ABOVE $ 16 or more an hour in Canada. The reality is, there are more jobs today in BC period. Conceivably you see this as a bad thing. Some of us see it as a good thing.

Mr lahey still here eh, lets get into this mining story a little deeper I know a good right wing idealogue like yourself would like to place all the blame on the ndp but that is simply not the case! Btw were you actually living in b.c. in 91, I was and being in the construction industry used to work in the odd mine! I thought Huckleberry and Baker were built during the ndp era, by Alberta labour while locals were starving, I was living up North at the time tnl and ledcor trucks (ledcor is owned by a former alberta politician) were passing by daily loaded with steel from Edmonton shops going to Construction sites here in b.c., sites employing Albertans at our expense! The ndp is friendlier to labor but not as friendly as you seem to think, didn’t they allow Huckleberry to ship its ore by truck to asia for processing at the expense of local jobs, again! You are also forgetting the Asia flu, their economy was in the tank and this hurt the forest sector the most but the mining sector was affected! Around the same time the Bronfmans were allowed to take 2 Billion dollars out of the country penalty free to invest in south America, seem to recall us taxpayers bailing out several of their operations shortly before that. Add to this the world bank and imf who had been financing the construction of mines in third world countries, when ore prices went south these countries still had to make their loan payments and could not afford to stop production and wait for higher prices, so they continued to flood the market with cheap ore, molybdenum is a good example, copper as well! Add to this mess a b.c. public who was tired of the mess left behind by industry and wanted the mining industry to clean up their act, the industry being what it is started heading to climes more friendly to polluters, willing to shirk their responsibility. More easily bribed? I can personally show you many polluted sites left behind by the mining industry! Ever heard of Babine Lake or Pinchi? Anvil mines in the Yukon shut down about the same didn’t it, and the Yukon government could hardly be called hostile to mining! Bre-X hurt the industry a hell of a lot more then the NDP! I had mining shares when Bre-X

We've lost 22,600 full time jobs in BC under the Campbell neo-cons. This is now a haven for part-time jobs. For jobs you can lose your home on. What Mr. Lahey isn't saying is that the hourly wage has not grown as fast as the Canadian average. Under those "dismal" NDP years between 1994-1998 the hourly wage grew faster than the Canadian average and continued to grow at the the same pace as the national average until slowing, in sailing they call it luffing, under the Gordo liberals.

where is the proof lahey that gordo has created high paying jobs, if anything he has cost us high paying jobs. Sixteen dollars an hour is hardly high paying jore like poverty for a family! The construction jobs are mostly low paying jobs in the non-union sector and this guy has been doing anything he can to screw the trade unions, hell they are quite willing to bring people in from out of province or country instead of creating a level playing field for all members of our society to compete! Phil hochstein is setting the standard for construction in b.c. and he isn't a special interest, give me a break! Idealogues are such morons!

if 57.2% of the population really is getting more then 16.00 an hour then that means 42.8% is getting less. Hardly worth bragging about! The job of a premier is to take care of all the citizens not just the corporations and insiders like hochstein at the expense of others! gordo was not given a mandate to sell b.c. rail to an american company, he has broken trust and lied to the people of this province and does not deserve to be re-elected! He is taking care of more special interest groupls then the ndp ever did! We the people of this province have no idea what deals he is making behind closed doors and have no way of finding out either and this is wrong!

Some damned fine articles here, with the entry of Allan, Vick, and Lynn into the discussion. Fine comments from all, but some especially good and pertainant ones from Vick, especially regarding the legacy left behind for us all by his much overblown mining industry. And that is NOT to deny the need or value of mining per se. But really, there is a need to keep it all in correct and realistic perspective.

Mr. Lahey and his NeoconLib apologist ilk are trying to sell us another one of their much abused pigs in a poke.

And Greenjeans, despite your contempt for the labour of ordinary working folks, especially those who would be so damned uppity as to seek to be as "organized" as Big and Little Business are, and your "Green" disdain for their contribution to raising the living standards of ALL working people, and the prosperity of those small businessmen and women you profess to so value (Do you really think it is minimum wage, non-organized labour keeping your shops afloat, even prospering?) no one here is denying the hard work and value of the small business sector. But the reality your kind of small business type needs to come to realize is, that your prosperity depends much more than you credit, on the prosperity of your customers, who in their great numbers are more likely working folks and their families, rather than the corporate class you so anxiously seem to "wannabe". (Unless you are so fortunate as to be in a ritzy class area somewhere, with an exclusive clientele, or some kind of supplier to major corporations.)

Indeed, it is said, the really smart small businessman wants to pay his own labour minimum wage or less, but have his competitors all paying union rates, and his customers all being well paid union workers. It's in the nature of the Free Market Beast, Greenjeans. Think about it, and you might get a better appreciation for your real place in the scheme of things, caught between being neither fish nor fowl.

And once you get that, you might just want to reconsider where your more natural allies really are, regardless of any closet pretensions and desires you may have, to wannabe one of the Big Boys. (Once you get there and ARE in fact one of the Big Boys, then you can turn on everyone else, if we haven't succeeded at getting control of you and your ambitions by then. Until then, you might find it more prudent to suck up to your customers, posibly even workers with some good union discretionary spending to blow in your shop, or on your services.

As it is, you are just one of those pretencious small business shits we roll our eyes over, and go across the street to your competitors shop. But I'll bet you hide what you really think of your Union customers, eh? ;-) Wink, wink.

I meet your type all the time.

Have another toke! Coyote and I'll get back to you later. For clarity, I think most of your read is just to stupid to repeat, but for the sake of Moe ...

I'm glad I don't meet your type all the time.

I'm glad I don't meet your type all the time.

I'm glad I don't meet your type all the time.

Moreover, I'm glad I don't meet your type all the time.

Moreover, I'm glad I don't meet your type all the time.

Moreover, I'm glad I don't meet your type all the time.

Bidet, you keep hanging around like a bad smell. Why don't you, lackey, colons and el Gordo go cruising in Hawaii and give us all a break; become an International public nuisance.

Moreover, I'm glad I don't meet your type all the time.

hey bennite are you really gordo lol! Greenjeans what are you smoking, most unionist are big supporters of small local business, preferring to give their hard earned cash to their neighbours instead of walmart where the people making 16 dollars an hour have to shop! That sure doesn't sound like much money to me, lets see 16 x 40 = 640 x 50 = 32,000 before taxes and claw backs, if they are able to work that many hours! To make 80k a year a union tradesman would have to work 50 weeks at an average of at least 60 hours a week here in B.C.! They only get 25.00 an hour (80k divided by 25$ = 3200 hours) and overtime is time and half except on Sunday which depending on the deal made can be double but hardly ever worked! Far more money to be made in other countries and provinces that are crying for high skilled labour! Europe needs skilled trades. Iraq will need a lot of trades soon; hell the Germans are probably looking for shipyard workers after their latest windfall thanks to gordo. Do you really think the German trades people are spending their money in the local economy supporting small business, are their wife’s getting their hair done in local salons, I don't think so! Alberta has just made it possible for foreign workers to work on a ten billion tarsands project requiring as many as 6500 workers at its peak, must make you proud eh lehay! Very Canadian of klein eh!

Lehay,you're a bag of laughs. Could you please elaborate on where all these resource sector jobs are being created? How many will be near Barriere where Tolko Industries closed its sawmill operations after your favorite government eliminated the requirment that logs harvested in a specific area had to be processed in the same area? BC Rail was built on the expansion of resource extraction industries in the Interior so perhaps you can tell me why its new owner is firing most of those long-time BC Rail employees who ran the trains that hauled those resources to market. And they haven't even been figured into those 23,000 fulltime jobs we lost of recent. You know the ones that were replaced by those 22,000 wonderful part time minimum wage career-setters Campbell is touting. I just hope for your sake, you have a better handle on math than his boys do.

SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE GREENS AND THE BC LIARS: BOTH PARTIES HAD THEIR LEADERSHIP HIGHJACKED BY PHONE IN VOTES, REPLACING ETHICAL CANDIDATES WITH CORPORATE PUPPETS; BOTH GREENS AND THE BC LIARS TRUST "BUSINESS TO DO THE RIGHT THING;" (no matter who gets hurt)BOTH PARTIES HAVE AS THEIR SUPPORTERS MOSTLY SPOILED YUPPIES WHO HAVE NEVER MISSED A MEAL IN THEIR LIVES!!!

Gary colon feret doesn't just say nice things about the greens by accident, he knows that smug, ignorant, votesplitting yuppies are bc backstabbers best hope for reelection. Note Ian greggson's (aka "rockerbiff") smug letter in this weeks georgia straight, in which he characterizes ndp supporters as "the ndp masses..." Gee, you forgot to invoke karl marx, greggson! Here we have a gay, disabled man who doesn't care if his run for office helps to reelect the gay bashing, disabled assaulting bc backstabbers. And why not? He's got his pension, he could care less if programs for gay street youth are eviscerated, just so he gets his run at the public trough!! The greens in their support of a former mike harris tory in the federal greens, are a joke in any discussion of progressive politics. They have but one function, using the deluded and the misinformed to split the vote of the left. Next may 17, 2005, however, all but the terminally stupid, and the willfully deluded opportunistic, will unite to get rid of the social and human parasites, that constitute the bc liars.

To see myself and many others endlessly, vigorously and repeatedly KICK jean binette and his buddy, mr lahey's butts, go to the thread about Maximus, the american neofascist corporation the bc liars are giving away BC to, now archived under "NEWS" on the Tyee home page....

I just knew Lweis was going have another bowel movement before he woke up. Hardcore harcourts might notice that he's crapped all over the other pages as well.

Perhaps jean binnette you should get a hobby...you have had a very constuctive weekend...

he is right bennite you haven't being doing to well of late or ever really, just can't seem to back your rhetoric with facts and lehay must be a real dissapointment to gordo!

lehay where is the proof that gordo is responsible for any job creation paying higher then six bucks! Some urls please and not to a canwest paper because they have no credibility in my opinion! To biased!

A hoot folks! Who said what, to flip out Binette? I can't stop laughing.

Now, really, I'd love to hang out here for the evening, and resolve the problems of the world with you guys and gals, but the good woman says I have to take her out and entertain her.

And a man does have to keep his woman entertained..., as well as be handy. My being handsome doesn't seem to cut it, by itself. :-)

A man's work is just never done.

I am seriously going to laugh so hard at all your crushed little political egos when the BC Liberals again stomp on the NDP in the coming election. Where and what will you say then?

Earlier Coyote wrote: - "And Jean, you amuse me. Though I see nothing wrong with a little cussing, frankly. I like the colour and "from the gut" feel of it. ("It's like talking dirty with a woman in bed") - "I scarcely know Moe (Moe, Curly, and Larry? to be able to make any kind of serious assessment of him. I live in a remote area of the province where he is only barely known to me",

Earlier Coyote wrote: - "And Jean, you amuse me. Though I see nothing wrong with a little cussing, frankly. I like the colour and "from the gut" feel of it. ("It's like talking dirty with a woman in bed") - "I scarcely know Moe (Moe, Curly, and Larry? to be able to make any kind of serious assessment of him. I live in a remote area of the province where he is only barely known to me",

I am amazed that even someone from as far north as the North pole doesn't know about Moe. Just so you know that I'm not a prude, may I suggest that you call on Sister Lynne for your dirty talk needs, You could whisper the Moe's name over and over. and afterwards .... Obviously you are far more than a "little unwell". And frankly you don't amuse me much , and you definitely ought to lay off the loco weed.

Binette, I have communicated with my Liberal MLA several times. He promised me that there wouldn't be any widespread school closures or teacher layoffs; he blamed that forcast on the media and big labour. He also told me that my daughter would benefit from any changes they made to the school act. Guess what ... over 100 school closures, 2500 less teachers, and my daughter had 22 children in her kindergarten class with no support for the children with special needs in it. How could I vote for him next election. He lied to me. It seems you aren't impressed with your Liberal MLA either, so will you be voting for him?

adam why would it hurt my ego if the people of b.c. are so gullible and stupid to vote for someone who is screwing as badly as this guy is?Do you like to see him spending our money running adds to get himself elected again, I am sure you would be up in arms if the ndp did this and rightfully so. I just want democracy again, if the ndp get 30 seats I will be a happy camper because the sh!t is going to hit the fan! Interest rates are going to go up eventually and when they do we are in for some interesting times considering how so many people are maxed right out with todays interest rates. How will they be able to support the new era when they are broke, oh yes and don't forget the dropping u.s. dollar, more interesting times, softwood lumber grain mad cow...

Before this forum descended into the toilet (literally), I believe the question was "Where will Green voters go". It is relatively simple. NDP Greens will go home to the NDP. Green Greens will stay the course. Disgruntled Liberals will go Green or go home. Adriane Carr's showing in Panorama Ridge, 8.4%, demonstrates that despite thousands of dollars and hundreds of volunteers deployed by Liberals and NDP, Greens still get 8% in a totally inhospitable riding. That 8% will go to 20% in many ridings, and be the deciding factor in the race. This is why the NDP is trying so hard to demonize the Green Party. Liberals are also scared and proved it by offering Green Party initiatives in Panorama Ridge, such as junk food bans in schools and money for bikepaths. Both parties will pander to Green voters in an attempt to grab the winning margin in the next election. What many of you on this forum refuse to acknowledge is that the Green Party may ultimately offer the only real alternative to the poisoned and polarized political landscape we call BC.

Robert East, have you been smoking out of Coyote's stash or what? Your intrepid leader manages to drop some 14 per cent voter support from the last election when a no-namer ran in that riding for the Greens and you imply she will be the deciding factor in the May election? Give me a break, she wasn't even a factor (and barely and afterthought) in the Panarama Ridge vote, but the general election will turn on her? Let's get real here as well about the effort to demonize the Green Party. If that is taking place it is hardly required as Ms. Carr is managing to do a pretty good job all on her own of bringing your party down. I'm still curious as to why Carr tried so hard to influnce the Constitutional Assembly after she had earlier agreed not to interfere. To me that is a two-faced move and a sign of desperation, no doubt spurred on by her massive 8 per cent voter support in Panarama Ridge. The future, you say? Ya, maybe in 2105.

Jean binette, the other posters are right,your a pain in the ass , and why not take a slow boat to any where, to think that the average joe has to vote against your ilk. Ed

and yes Vick you have it right on the nose,just about where binnete should get it,its hard to believe that some think its female. ED

can you imagine having a mother like binny? Is there a word for it?

Allan, every time you open your mouth there is an air of ignorance. First, I am no Green, but an Independent attempting to inject some rationality to this partisan salon. Second, your statement regarding some Citizens Assembly agreement by Carr needs clarification. I followed this process and saw nary a wit of such a agreement. Prove it with some fact or hold your breath. And third, do you have anything positive to say, or are you simply an NDP hatchet(person). And forth, I stated that the election will turn on the Green Party, not Adriane Carr. Got a thang for her?

Adriane carr has never been a option as She has let gord plunder the province with out a word.The people like my family who voted for her in the past will not make that mistate again...We are tired of power hungry left and right and now the center...who figure?Most BCers are tired of spin docters.... that spend to much time on this page...as a tax payer how much are we paying you jean?

Vick I suspected you would resort to the usual NDP excuses for the devastation of the mining industry during the 90’s. Blame the international commodity market; the asian flu, the IMF, the world bank you say - Yet the Liberals have faced the softwood lumber issue, the avian flu, SARS, 911, BSE and still our economy grows and leads Canada. Make no mistake those 18 mines were shut down by the NDP. It was the former NDP government that wears the blood on it’s hands form the thousands of mine workers and their families lives that were destroyed by their inept regime (trying to use a Lewis Swiftism there for dramatic effect) The real reasons on how the NDP destroyed the mining industry in BC ? First they started off by shitcanning the Windy Craggy Project – after many years and millions of dollars invested by the resource company the NDP said “too bad so sad” What a great way to encourage other companies to invest in BC. Did I mention that project was worth at least $8 Billion alone? Half the amount of money the NDP added to the provincial debt could have been had from this one single mine and they pissed it all away. Got them lots of Green Votes in 2001 as well didn't it. Good Job NDP! Next was the water tax increase, the industry begged them not to do it, but the NDP said “too bad, so sad” But no, they were not done yet, next would come the Corporation Capital Tax; the absolute deathblow to this industry and the first nail in other industries coffins. In fact industry (including Placer Dome remember them? they used to have four mines here in BC) begged the NDP not to do it and warned that mines would close if they did. What did the NDP say? “Too bad so sad”. Guess what? Placer Dome no longer operates any mines in BC. They did keep operating in Ontario though. Remember the planned copper smelter for Kitimat and the resulting 1200 jobs (not to mention a $ 500 million dollar investment in BC) The investors said see ya’ later NDP ! Cominco reported having to pay $ 61 million in taxes and declared a loss. Mining assets had shrunk from $8 billion to 3 Billion in six years. In fact by 1999 with an election looming even the NDP knew they had screwed up royally and hired a consultant to investigate what could be done to fix the mess they had created. The end document, a big one, was not made public by the NDP as it clearly proved that it was in fact the NDP Government that had destroyed the mining industry in our Province. Thankfully the Liberals are repairing the damage that was done by the NDP and mines are again re-opening in British Columbia instead of closing (as they did under the NDP) with more exploration on the way (in fact record exploration). More mines=more hi-paying jobs. Something you would think that the Unions would cheer for, and interestingly enough, some still do.

Robert East,you might well be an independant, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that most people who read your earlier post, which I commented on, would get a pretty strong sense that your just oozing Green. No mention of "I'm an independant", but lots of Green, Green, Green, Adriane , Adriane, which reminds me of your last concern about who you said the election will turn on. Perhaps I was mistaken, if that is the case, it's because you left the impression Ms. Carr single handedly marched into hostile territory and, after beating off two huge opponents, managed to scoop up record numbers of voters. You then seemed to take an optimistic bent and started the old chamber of commerce game of multiplier effect, assuring us that her 8 per cent would soon be 20 per cent and then we'll seize Berlin or something. It seemed like maybe you had a theng for her yourself, Robert. But you know what really got my interest? It was your precious "What many of you on this forum fail to acknowledge is that the Green Party may ultimately offer the only real alternative to the poisoned and polarized landscape we call BC." Hey, we've all been waiting for wisdom like that since we signed on, but can you tell us where the Green Party has been able to end polarized politics already or did Adriane tell you that? And when Green grows up and is the big one, will it lean to the right or lean to the left?

Chris H, 12/12/2004 5:46:40 PM, writes: Binette, I have communicated with my Liberal MLA several times. He promised me that there wouldn't be any widespread school closures or teacher layoffs; he blamed that forcast on the media and big labour. He also told me that my daughter would benefit from any changes they made to the school act. Guess what ... over 100 school closures, 2500 less teachers, and my daughter had 22 children in her kindergarten class with no support for the children with special needs in it. How could I vote for him next election. He lied to me. It seems you aren't impressed with your Liberal MLA either, so will you be voting for him?

Good question Chris, even though it has already been asked and answered several times over. -- I have not communicated with my Liberal MLA at all because he never promised me a rose garden. However, my impression is that he hasn't done much other than pick up his paycheck with regularity. But the question was, will I vote for him? My answer is yes!, because sadly he would still be the best candidate in my riding and to do otherwise would be suicidal. I can't even fathom how any candidate for election would remotely consider handing the checkbook back to Sihota and company. -- I don't know much about the school system so I can't know for sure if your Liberal MLA lied to you, but if he did, then in that case I would inform him I expect much more and I would rely on and support other informed party members like yourself to point to his shortcomings. (and I would cut off his subscription to Michael Smythe)

I mean, can you possibly imagine the damage that would ensue with a Carole James governemt with members of the original "Gang of Six" at the remote controls from the Cayman Islands. Business both large and small would be aghast! The eastern media would die laughing. My question for you is, are you prepared to take that chance?

No surprise at your comments, but if you were a resident of b.c. in the 70s 80s and early 90s you would know what really happened to the mining industry in this province! It was not just ndp policy! Where is your proof that the drunk is doing anything to grow our economy I would say not considering the hurting going on in the northern communities! How many high paying jobs as this bunch gotten rid of and how many of these new era jobs are part time mcjobs!

18 mines shut down by the ndp? Got the names and dates of these mine closures, I had a stockwatch membership for years and I used to get daily newsletters on the mining industry, stock promotions etc, I am still on their email list and I don't recall 18 mines shutting down! I do remember the industry being hurt across the country and why!

Endako mines got a huge break from the ndp on hydro to keep them operating or they would have shut down to name one, didn't cominco get a huge bail out back east, nice big tax break from the feds just before the bronfmans took 2 billion out of the country tax free! People were fed up with the mess the mining companies were leaving behind for the taxpayers to clean up, a perfect example would be the tar pits in sidney n.s.!

I remember the smelter, K2, the aluminum plant and the mines built by albertans while ndp were in power and locals were unemployed!

the aluminum plant I referred to is the toyota wheel plant!

vick, vick, vick, vick. Are you sober? The damage that was inflicted through the 90's was massive. - Too massive to forgive.

yes binny I am sober, unlike you and the albertan (if you are not one and the same) I am not blinded by ideology! The ndp were far from perfect but I suspect they were reacting to public opinion, not being run by howe street and the vancouver board of trade and a lot of back room deals! The mining industry was affected by global issues, as was forestry, it is ok for lahey to cry about sars but the asian flu or world supply don't count, yeh sure!

the windy craggy mine is a perfect example of public reaction to mines that are considered to be an enviromental dissaster waiting to happen! gordo doesn't care about the environment he has been focused on creating jobs or at least the allusion to get re-elected while taking care of his friends and contributers, (grizzly moratorium!) he has failed in this so he is using our money for these feel good adds to keep his job! He is a hyprocrite in my opinion! I think most people in this province care about their environment and future generations!

It sounds to me as if you were in charge everything would be as green as green could be, but we would have nothing to eat. Wasn't it you who was protesting at Clayquot sound?

nope never protested at clayquat tho I do think we should save some old growth for more substainable use, like tourism etc, why not. I am all for mining if it is done properly managing pollution, containing and cleaning up when they are done, but this is rare and most mines leave behind toxic chemicals! You support this?

Of course I don't - I worked in some of those mines. So join up, and be and off-center liberal like me to ensure you get what you want.

I seem to recall hearing a few months ago that Gordo forgave a 300million debt to Huckleberry Mines. Corporate welfare is alive and well in BC. Even in good economic times, corps can't manage on their own. Must be paying to much to their high flutin executives, so they can still afford to buy Gordo's next move. Jean...get a heart or watch Scrooge or something other than your constant business is good, blah, blah, blah... Vick, I love you, will you marry me?

do you have any idea why the executive council forgave the debt? Maybe there was good reason, I don't know.

"I just want democracy again, if the ndp get 30 seats I will be a happy camper because the sh!t is going to hit the fan! Interest rates are going to go up eventually and when they do we are in for some interesting times considering how so many people are maxed right out with todays interest rates. How will they be able to support the new era when they are broke, oh yes and don't forget the dropping u.s. dollar, more interesting times, softwood lumber grain mad cow..." wrote Vick.

Fundamentally my approach to the next election as well. I'm not entirely pleased feeling strategically pressured to vote NDP, but the alternatives are infinitely worse, in my view of things. (Though I am still humming and hawing some.Sometimes doing nothing IS best.) And while even the NDP are making noises that they have no real intent to any time soon try to turn things around, they will "likely", at least, slow the pace of societal and economic deterioration that has been going on with the Neocon Liberals, and may even act as the first shoe dropping in a "process" that WILL eventually result in turning things around.

For like Vick says, though I will use my own choice of words, there is more downside to current capitalism coming yet, with the collapsing Yankee dollar, the rising pressure on the Canadian dollar relative to that, signs that the Euro is being positioned to replace the Yankee dollar as top global currency in international trade, and as Empire USA slides into the deep dark pit of its own creation, both as result of its own de-industrialization to offshore cheap labour havens and the economic bleeding off of what was left of its global stature in yet another war adventure gone wrong. And if one thinks Canada, whose toadying ruling class has much tied its fate to the presumptions of a never-ending ascendancy of US Empire power, is not going to suffer the economic and social consequence of that miscalculation, and the coming up face first against the brickwall of this newly emerging reality, then one has been toking up on more than a little loco weed. Said "true believer" is in denial and psychotically delusional.

My own view is, beginning now, but gathering momentum whatever the outcome of the next election here, there is a need for labour and it "progressive" allies, actual and potential, to begin building a powerful extra-parliamentary movement, that can help create a sustaining social climate to carry this "process" of making deep changes in the character and nature of capitalist society, and in evolving a new vision of "economic democracy" there, to the next level. Reversing the damage that has been done to society and its economic base by extreme rightist policy since the late 70s to early 80s is, in my view, not going to prove to be enough. The newly emerging economic and social period coming out of all that I have been talking about above, is going to serve to make that clear, in all likelihood. We have to ensure that it can never happen again, and set society and the economy upon quite a different course.

Analysis, especially of the kind I engage in here, that involves trying to predict future outcomes, I appreciate, is a risky business, no doubt. That said, I think Bob Dylan's old song is still true at particular historical moments, like this one is, I suggest: "You don't (always:-) have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

But for sure, we shall see.

See Leonard Cohen - "democracy is coming to the U.S.A."

vick, you're the best. It's amazing how the sheer truth and geninue honesty of vick's words can cut through lahey's spin.

As far as binette's off-center liberal (well, it speaks for itself). Of course, he'll keep voting for the gang who have sold this province out, no surprise there. It's one of the main tenets of off-center liberalism. Keep voting for the dictator, all is well. When he "lets us" change things we will. When he "lets us" dream a different dream, we will. Til then keep obeying Gordo. Keep saluting.

vick for premier!

Yassuh, mr lashey, us po' folks in bc sho' is glad about all dem bc liars helpin' us out....Does yo wants to scratch my wooly haid for luck?

Give me a break, half the bc liars were former socreds heavily involved in northest coal, what was the loss on that under billy bennett?2 billion or 3 billion. I wonder what the economic loss from mining in national parks is going to be if this pack of pimps in victoria manage to lie their way back into office with their phoney, nonexistent, MISLEADING, cherry-picked statistic "good economic news?" I refer you as well to achived articles about methane strip mining in this province that the bc backstabbers are attempting to promote. Guess what, mr lahey, stupid, if methane is disvcovered under your company property you'll be looking for a new place to park your trucks with minimal compensation. But then what can we expect from a moron willing to sell out his children and grandchildren for nickles?? 22,600 FULL TIME, WELL PAYING JOBS GIVEN AWAY BY THE BC LIARS LAST YEAR SO AMERICAN COMPANIES COULD BUY BC CHEAP. You're not even a good canadian, lahey, ley alone a decent human being or a decent british columbian!

While little jeanny spinnette has somewhat asexual, androgenous personality characteristics, possibly connected with his morally neutered beliefs, mr binnette, is indeed nominally, male, as he has referred to his "wife" in one thread, months ago, when he first made his odious, and sneaky debut...jean, you're not just an off-center liberal, you're a heartless, reactionary backstabber, and as of may 17, 2005, you'll be WAY past your due date as well...

While little jeanny spinnette has somewhat asexual, androgenous personality characteristics, possibly connected with his morally neutered beliefs, mr binnette, is indeed nominally, male, as he has referred to his "wife" in one thread, months ago, when he first made his odious, and sneaky debut...jean, you're not just an off-center liberal, you're a heartless, reactionary backstabber, and as of may 17, 2005, you'll be WAY past your due date as well...

Well vick - I suppose you should comment, your the one who woke him up.

"ad hominem" (to the man)argument - Attacking the character or background of an opponent instead of answering his argument. Webster

been busy running errands jeez this xmas stuff is costly and time consuming and it isn't over yet! CH thanks for the comment on the 300 Million given to Huckleberry I will look into that one for sure, have to read some of my stockwatch and stockhouse emails I guess! I seem to recall the right wing being up in arms and oh so rightous about the ndp giving 86 million to skeena to bail out thousands of jobs in Northern Communities from the Hazeltons to the Charlottes, hmm am I missing something here... Or is this just more hypocrisy? Wonder who owned shares in Huckleberry, might be interesting to see if the stock was played, big buys before news big sells into news! innocent on the Doman deal?

oops sorry about the doman deal thought I had erased it all in my haste! A puzzle for binny can you guess who this was about?

"While little jeanny spinnette has somewhat asexual, androgenous personality characteristics," writes Lewis, in observation of Jean, of the light brown hair and dubious sexual identity.

My first impression, not always correct, I concede, was that it was a distinctly femme voice I was hearing from Spinette. And as for his/her "wife" reference, the Mrs and I were somewhat friends with a couple of homosexual males years ago, from whom we bought a beautiful little purebred Collie bitch, and were much amused that each had adopted specific sterotypical roles, one doing all the cooking and housework, who was referred to as the "wife", whilst the carouser and layabout was, of course, the "husband". (I mean, why is it always assumed that the carouser and layabout, being waited upon hand and foot, is the much down trodden, misunderstood male?

So I still say, Jean's true identity is very much open to speculation yet.

Oooo, I've got some whole wheat and rum soaked raisin muffins cooling on the rack, I'm desparately wanting to taste.

Ta, ta dahlings.

That's the problem Coyote, you open your mouth and no information comes out. I suppose that's pure tyee ....

you do have a great way with words Coyote, keep it up.Lewis you dont do to bad either, thanks. Ed

You know Coyote, you strike me as a reasonably articulate person, and while I do not share your perspective with respect to “sustaining social climate” I am curious as to where you see the revenue’s coming form to support said “sustainable social climate” and more so, what exactly do you define as such from your point of view ?

lehay I am still waiting for the names of the 18 mine???

Why would any progressive ever vote Green? The 01 election never told never told us anything except what a great job the media did of villifying the NDP. The Green Party is even more confused about which side of the fence it's on than the NDP.

Screw the mines, I want the recipe for those muffins.

Your right Vick, no mimes ever closed under the NDP, and our Provincial debt did not increase, Placer Dome didn't actually leave BC, they only went on vacation. Voters only ousted the NDP because they were bored, they knew that we were not really last in economic growth. Everything was wonderful during the 90's. We don't really have anymore jobs in BC today, we really are not leading Canada in economic growth, major banks are all at a loss without a guru like Schreck to guide them. Glen Clarke is making minimum wage working for Pattison and our credit rating has not been upgraded. How have we all been so wrong ? I just cannot wait to cast a vote for a real leader like Carole James. How could BC not be better off with people like Harry Lali and Adrian Dix onside. I am so excited about May 17 I can hardly wait for the NDP to bring back the real economic growth of the 90's we are so sadly lacking.

As I understand it. Glen CLARK doesn't actually work for Pattison, (In 1996 Pattision said he could make him a "millionare in no time at all" if he was in business. Apparently he gave him 5 million in wriggle money to get him started.)

Good comments Mr. Ed

Then again it depends on which end is doing the talking.

Hi everyone! I see you are all uptight - from what I've read especially Jean and Coyotte - good for you - "Have you actually gone to the Mall and shopped for Xmas" I bet you all watched "Trailer Park Boys" last night eh? All Gov't Officials as our Premiers are the same .....Drinking and Driving....Family Maintenance" They are all going to fix it all! You all sound like red-necks to me!~

who me, francis...?

who me, francis...?

Dave F - How do you do? I bet you got the bit Gordy promotion eh? Bonus maybe? Have you done your shopping? I believe this Gov't has axed us all into health authorities with their big CEO's getting the big bonuses for cutting staff! Merry Xmass!

Besides going with fists with Dave F....What do you all want to do with our children out of work? and the homeless?

Oh by the way I truly miss a really true blue news worthy guy - "Pat Burns" Hello Doll!

Hey Doll....been out too the mall..Gordie has messed up so much but I never had my wages cut, but, so many people have lost their jobs.I work for one of Gordie's experiments...Crown Corp.s, that has more than a seamless transition... so far....lost huge existing contract with the feds. Ontario influence has touch all realms of this goverment'whether it saves or not...Joyce Murrey has been sold a bill of goods. Ask small B.C. business who invoice's ontario and waits 4 monthes to paid...................

...Only a 155 sleeps till The Fiberals are "GONE" GONE GONE... remember when Gordo Cried on TV.. That was good realy good...

lahey whats the matter can't come up with facts so you are trying to baffle us with b.s.? Of course mines close they all will at some time but my point was and still is, the ndp were not the only reason, as I have stated before! You weren't even living in b.c. when the mining industry got into trouble so how the hell do you know anything anyway?

lahey you said " Make no mistake those 18 mines were shut down by the NDP." end of quote, what 18 mines are you talking about, you make an accusation now back up what you say.

Thank the Gods and the Citizen's Assembly that we are finally going to get a more proportional election system (BC-STV) which will reduce this vote-splitting crap, and dramatically reduce (dare I dream) the mount of rushing for the fuzzy ideoogical centre and the party leadership's control. It will also, very positively, elect some Green Party candidates. By the way, the signal to noise ratio here is phenmomonally low this time. I think it idicates that there's something important being dodged around - perhaps the failure of the old-line politics to address ecological and human issues effetively? Best Sam

Thank the Gods and the Citizen's Assembly that we are finally going to get a more proportional election system (BC-STV) which will reduce this vote-splitting crap, and dramatically reduce (dare I dream) the mount of rushing for the fuzzy ideoogical centre and the party leadership's control. It will also, very positively, elect some Green Party candidates. By the way, the signal to noise ratio here is phenmomonally low this time. I think it idicates that there's something important being dodged around - perhaps the failure of the old-line politics to address ecological and human issues effectively? Best Sam

Your dreaming if you think they are capable of anything other than the same old phenmominal nonsense that has made the party what it is today. Carole James must be proud. I trust you won't be voting for Sihota...

Do the fab four debaters that hijack every story here think that they're making a difference? That others share in their self indulgence? Take the time and thought to write one focussed submission and leave the space for others to submit. Please If you want to further your debates perhaps Yahoo can provide you a custom site. You can even name your own site. Please, editor, one or perhaps two submissions per piece per article.

So who are the other three fabs? And, are you with the Tyee police? I trust you won't be voting for Sihota.....

when the right wing zealots quit posting their idealogical rantings I will quit asking questions and holding them accountable, in the meantime no one is stopping you from posting yours!

binette, when you tell your "jokes" to friends and colleagues, are they met with uncomfortable silences?

"...when the right wing zealots quit posting their idealogical rantings I will quit asking questions and holding them accountable," wrote Vick.

The silence from the other end is deafening. :-)

Only 154 more sleeps till G-Day. (G=Good Riddance)

From what I have seen Tzeporah Berman has never been a member of the Green Party, in fact one web site labelled her as a TROTSKYIST. http://www.web.net/~bmilani/rpc2.htm She was a founding member of the "Radical Party" working with the late NDP MLA Emery Barnes on this. She has worked for Friends of Clayquot Sound and Greenpeace, which in my book does not make her a Green Party member in any way. As for Carole James definintion of TAX SHIFTING, as described in the article, don't that sat it all ? TAX SHIFTING ? er sure Carole good definition.

No Michael, not at all. Whenever I mention Carole James and the NDP they laugh their heads off. Are you voting for Sihota?

THIS JUST IN: GARY COLON FERRET HAS RESIGNED AS FINANCE MINISTER OF BC, LIKE A RAT DESERTING A SOON TO BE SINKING SHIP. SEE FOR YOURSELF BY VISITING THE ONLINE PROVINCE OR VANCOUVER SUN WEBSIGHTS. WHAT DIRE, FORTHCOMING NEWS IS COLLINS CRAPPING HIMSELF OVER? PROOF THAT HE KNEW MONTHS AGO ABOUT THE FORTHCOMING EQUALIZATION PAYMENTS TO BC, BUT WENT AHEAD WITH INDEFENSIBLE CUTS ATTAVCKING THE MOST VULNERABLE ANYWAY? SHAME AT RUNNING A HAVE-NOT ECONOMY FOR THREE YREARS OUT OF FOUR, PERHAPS? OR, HAVE SOME NEW DISGUSTING AND EVEN MORE AMAZINGLY TAINTED AND CORRUPTED TIES BETWEEN THE FEDERAL AND THE PROVINCIAL LIBERALS SURFACED, LIKE THE ROTTING CORPSE OF A DISABLED PERSON WHO KILLED HIMSELF BY DROWNING TO ESCAPE DEATH ON THE STREETS, SURFACING, IN A STENCH AND MIASMA OF SWAMP GAS AND CORRUPTION??? We'll soon know....

Good comments, coyote, but I essentially regard little jeanny spinette's gender as beside the point. Far harder to prove is the status of binette and mr lahey, in the HUMAN FAMILY...For, can we really count as human, backstabbing little sneaks, willing to lie and distort facts relentlessly, no matter how often, how effectively and constantly rebutted, no matter how intense the STENCH from their tainted taxcut, that would gag a maggot...No, now that the new era is obviously over, I propose cross breeding experiments, with jean and the aforementioned DESIREE BINETTE, who may or may not be a gay gorilla...if so turkey basters and dna splicing can still be employed to maximum advantage, perhaps in an extinct species ZOO setting. While such experiments can regretably only DEGRADE goriilla DNA, by the same token they can only enrich and ennoble the dna of bc liar supporters...

RIGHT ROCKERBIFF, TAX SHIFTING BACK TO THE WEALTHY AND TO BC CORPORATIONS WHO GOT THEIR UNCAMPAIGNED ON, TAINTED 25% TAXCUT THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION. JAMES CAN STILL LET THE MIDDLE CLASS KEEP THEIR TAXCUT, ONCE THE UNAFFORDABLE TAXCUT FOR THE WEALTHY THAT'S DONE NOTHING FOR THE ECONOMY IS CANCELLED. One thing about taxcuts under the ndp; people BESIDES THE WEALTHY got to hang under their money, unlike under the bc liars that vote splitting greens are determined to reinstall....

Rockeriff, Berman is certainly green in the larger sense and that's really the what counts. As you noted she has been in the trenches with Greenpeace and Friends of Clayquot Sound. Whether she ever carried a Green Party of BC membership is really not an issue. The fact that she is one of the feistiest and highest profile environmental campaigners in BC says a lot more about her credentials than a membership in the same party Rafe Mair voted for in 2000. Loved your little Radical and Troskyite swings with your hatchet. You'd get more reaction on that one over at the Sun or Province, I'm sure.

Rising on a point of information. Mr. Lahey is not to be confused with myself. I'd hate for my friends and colleagues to think his opinions are mine. Mr. Lahey, if your a long lost relative give me a ring. We can chat over a cuppa.

Is this one more leak in good ship campbell,stay on board binnete we wont miss you. Ed

"She has worked for Friends of Clayquot Sound and Greenpeace, which in my book does not make her a Green Party member in any way." writes rockerbiff.

Ignoring the question of whether anyone here really cares, or what the relevance is if, Ms Berman is a Trotskyite, a Green or a green, an Anarchist or a Tory Blue, as the Greens really are, in my view, what you reveal here besides a thinly veiled attempt to red bait, is something much more important to get at. You see, like Allan points out so rightly, it is this mistaken belief of yourself and too many "official" Greens, that you have some kind of "right of claim" to a monopoly on what is and is not green that is so wrong and aberrant.

We here would prefer to judge her on her ideas and actions, which is where the "so called" Greens fall so miserably down. I have suggested before that what passes for "official" Green with you folks, is in fact a leprachaun costume to hide your real Tory Blue view of politics, economics and the environment, and a mere attempt to hoodwink us and the rest of the mass of society.

It will take more than your "book" to keep you afloat here. You are clearly out of your depth.

And I am not judging you on the basis of labels, designed to hold you up to ridicule or "Green Baiting", for I really did initially think The Greens had something more "progressive" to offer, but the ideology and practical politics you folks bring into here consistently makes clear to me, that you are from quite another more reactionary part of the poltical spectrum. For a more sympathetic response, if that is what you seek here, I think Gordo supporter Jean Binette is really right, you need to seek out a forum, more like the Neocon Libs, who are more to the "right", where you folks more accurately are politically.

Which is not to say that I do not enjoy your presence here, or the opportunity to engage in the "clash of ideas" process with you. I certainly have, and do find it still "informative", and giving of many insights into the real mind of what passes for "The Greens". And I'm sure many other folks here have been as "surprised" as I have, of what is revealed there. (Actually, I even enjoy the ideas clashes with the Neocon Liberal trolls who show up here from their sinking ship from time to time, such as the discovery of the much they have in common with the more blatantly fascist Brownshirts.)

Actually, this forum has not been a particular love fest for the NDP either, near as much as yourselves. Though there are clearly more NDPers about than Greens, which is quite naturally going to weight the discussion some. Though I had initially expected it to be overwhelmingly, an NDP propaganda site actually, with no room for other views at all.

'allo, allo, I am looking for people who believe the bc liberals "fixed" the bc economy, I 'ave some comic boooks I wan' sell them as stock portfolios, and some dog crap, I wan' sell to 'em as bc bud...'allo???!

Hey another big rat has jumped ship...the liberials ship is losing balast and one small wave on may 17 going to take Her down...FOR GOOD!

Nothing but crap.Louie time to move from your hoch 118#

Could some of you reduce your language level, plus are you also Retired, or do a few spend your entire life on here ? Thats a question. Carr's message for the record - "A merger, coalition is not in the cards. Fundamentally the Green Party and the NDP are very different parties. We have some similar platforms, and in those areas it would be great to work together and I look forward to working with the new leader of the NDP on issues of mutual concern. But the fundamental differences will keep us as separate parties." Adrianne Carr, BC Green Party Leader, CKNW, June 3, 2003 (2 PM)" She's an opportunist, day in, day out.

no I'm not retired I am one few that are fulltime employed,but I'm sorry if you feel my views are not important unless I'm retired and living on saltspring.The between greens and ndp ...rich and working poor.

Although the Green may have made the difference between 2 NDP seats and 8 NDP seats, the fact of the matter is that unless BC adopts a new electoral system, statistically the Liberals will probably have a majority government for as long as Klein has had, or as long as the Social Credit did. The left, green party + NDP, has never combined pulled more than 44%, and generally its closer to 35-39%. The green party will never be credible unless it gets an MLA in, and unfortuneately will never get an MLA until its credible. The right, since 2001, has for the first time in B.C's history is unified, whether rightwingers like it or not. If it wasn't for the reform party / pda in 1996, the NDP would have had under 30 seats, not the majority. As much as left wingers hate what Gordo's been doing, a majority of voters will hold there noses and look at their wallets, including many union members if GC unleashes that 2 billion $ surplus on a few select unions. So let the Green be Green and lets get a new political system, or get use to Wacky Campbell. www.stvforbc.com

sorry to be jumping in to this convo so late but i just heard about the site. i am a union employee in healthcare, own a small bookstore/community hub, worked with greenpeace and the green party since 1992 and am presently running to be candidate for the greens in bc 2005. many of the comments about right wing greens and adriane carr made me laugh. admittedly, there has been an influx of conservative people into the green party, but same goes for socialists, youth, non-voters, true liberals and true ndp; the reason is that our concerns OVERLAP. we are all part of this environment, effect each other in society, and share in an economic reality. all of these have obviously gotten worse with the neo-con bend most media, politicians and business has gone in the past 10 years, let alone the last 4. i don't know how many of you here have read the green policy book but check it our before you speak so authoritatively about greens. the policies are clear: triple bottom line accountability (enviro, social, economic), guided by genuine progress indicators with a view 7 generations ahead; this puts our philosophies and policies years ahead of the other parties who think in terms of 4 years and special interests. no neo-con party or look alike would touch that future: its bad for bad business. tax shift to the polluters and big business (that drains our resources and revenues to other countries); support ALL workers in this province and re-build from the community up; support low income and working poor; invest in alternative fuels, fibres and possibilities; genuinely recognize that economics is ECOnomics and there is no economics without people first, and no people without the environment first. THAT is hardly right wing. as for the coming election. stop voting the lesser of evils, raise the standards, consider the merit of each candidate and vote with your conscience. maybe that is idealistic but the alternative is pessimistic and gotten us this far. of course greens won't form the next government, but the only way you will see green policies after the election is by having a green in the legislature. a couple greens can keep the other parties in check unlike they ever would check themselves. certain constituencies can win and that will happen by the trust of voters whose concerns mostly overlap. a green can represent core liberals and core ndp far better than either of those parties could/would represent each other or the greens- we have seen this in practice already. not the green part tho. there is more going on in the green party at a grass roots and constituency level than any of you know (obviously, by your comments), and the people involved are far more social/democratic, from across social spectrums, and CAPABLE than you say. we have a full platform addressing all the main issues we face with sensible, sound, long term solutions. show me something better and i'll consider it, but, been there, done that. the real (big picture) future is green or its over, and i think we all know that. thanks for the thoughts and the forum.

dave F writes: "the liberials ship is losing balast and one small wave on may 17 going to take Her down...FOR GOOD" I wouldnt go that far. In four more years the BC public will cry foul once again and vote for the other guy/gal. If BC voters spent half as much time researching policy platforms as you folks spent on this thread, I think the reactionary, media-influenced west coast voting style would take a more meaningful, educated form. Stop typing and get your word out to more than the 18 people here!

I am kinda semi-retired from the construction industry, preffering short term jobs working long hours in and out! I did not retire to b.c., I have spent most of my life working here paying into b.c. medical in the hopes that it will be there for my generation when we retire and use up the what 90% of the medical in the last year of my life?

The big picture is without a doubt directly related to our environment, and without the fresh air, water, food, it`s all over. The very short term problem we have in BC is Gordon Campbell, and it may be necessary of all political beliefs to say what is the easiest way to rid BC of this plague. The answer is fairly simple.

so what is it vick? What's the answer.

Let me rephrase that . So what is the answer c. Parkhurst? Please keep it simple.

To talk to you and you one line laziness masquerading as posts, jean, one needs not to just keep it simple, but at a kindigarten level. You have never made a single comment worth responding to jean, here, as in life, all you do is waste space.

Jean Binette, 12/15/2004 4:37:55 AM, writes: Thanks Carlos Bud, you have proven that intelligent life still exists at the Tyee. - and Jim who wrote "And Lewis I don't even need to respond to your immature back talk. I know 5 year olds who make more mature statements than you". --Point taken.

There is one good example in recent memory of how "green" the NDP really is: After humming and hawing for a week, NDP candidate (and ultimate winner) Jagrup Brar came out in favour of twinning the Port Mann bridge. This is the NDP for you: talk a good story but the reality is quite diffferent. Welcome to the NDP/Liberal future for the Fraser Valley: blacktop, sprawl and pollution from mountain to sea.

And that is an extremely good example of a reason for joining the Liberal party and nominating greener candidates of your choice.

nice try binny, we do need more green candidates in all parties but the liberals are only interested in environmental exploitation at the cost of the environment! Coal bed methane, mining in parks, changes to the forest practices code to mention a few! So pfrovtar on the big picture I am a little surprised that you would attack someone for being in favour of twinning a bridge to reduce air pollution, idling cars pollute a hell of a lot more then the ones home in 15 minutes. It is gordo and his developer friends who are turning paradise into a parking lot, wait til 2010! Expo started it all and the province hasn't been the same since! Lots of big wig socred friends dure did make money on that one, remember the new west water front deal? I do, how about the expo lands deal. Who paid for the clean up? The real issue here is how do we get people out of their cars and into public transit?

If you build it (a bigger bridge) they will come. Green + Liberals = more Green Liberals than red. - The real issue is the dead salmon that float feet up in the river out my back door.

At the risk of being repetitive; I don't like being called "binny". You don't see me calling you "vicki" do you?

sorry binny. Have you looked at the changes gordo made to the pollution act reducing the standards, you might want to if you are concerned about fish, water quality, or air quality! I don't think gordo would let too many green types loose in his party!

Actually vicki I have an american acquaintance who is digging up a nearby mountain and putting his septic field next to a stream as we speak and I don't like it at all. - All of the above, I'm also not in favour of a billion acres of greenhouses either. The Premier wouldn't have a say if there were enough greener liberals.

lol you are delusive if you think gordo will green!

The only green that Gordo likes is money.

Well suit yourself vick, but a greener liberal could just as easily be a more liberal green. However, if you support the New Democrats, I think you will end up broke and out of work.

what has gordo done to deserve the support of green members, scrapping the forest practices code, at least the parts the corporations don't like! I can just see all the greens supporting coal bed methane, done your homework on coal bed methane binny you should it is a real nightmare! Its up there with selling us out to the americans another fine liberal accomplishment!

a lot of hard working northerners are out of work, broke and unable to get assistance because of gordo! Watching logs get hauled out of their communities to major centers! Barriere is a perfect example!

You talk about members and I talk about people - two different concepts. As I have said repeatedly the Premier can be easily replaced by greener liberals. All green doesn't make much of a salad vicki.

I am talking about the members of our society who are outside looking in, the ones who have not benefited from the new era of tax breaks meant for the 10% of the population who got what 80% of the tax break! What has gordo done for the people of Barriere? He allowed Tolko to haul the wood out of the area without rebuilding the mill, this is happening all over b.c., wood being hauled away from local mills! The people got burned out lost the biggest employer and gordo sits back and watches lose everything nice friends you have there binny!

Thanks vicki, but about all I know about Barriere is that the Liberals didn't start the fire. I note that you have filled pages and pages of complaints. Do you have a specific solution to the problem at Barriere?

you might consider them to be complaints, or could it be that I am pointing out the error of the new era, the lies and deceit, the pain and suffering? The libs didn't start the fire but some say that they laid off so many forestry workers, (you know the ones who are in charge of firefighting) that the response was to slow and allowed the fire to get away on them! That resources were stretched to thin! The changes to the forest practices code are wrong and gordo should have forced Tolko to rebuild that mill in Barriere, they would have had that mill insured so it would have been no cost to them except in lost production which would give them incentive to rebuild the mill quickly! The people in Barriere were used for a photo opp by gordo and martin then in my opinion forgotten, didn't gordo privatise their welfare office. Nice friends you have binny! Btw I have given you a rather childish nickname because you act like one! You can call me whatever you like, it matters not to me!

Vick, you are absolutely correct about the Barriere mess and who is responsible. That Binette won't acknowledge Liberal complicity in it says an awful lot about why he acts like such a clown anytime someone asks him a specific. Easier to act the friendly idiot than defend the Liberals apparently. Gordon Campbell's government amended the forest act in May 2003 removing any requirement that firms with harvesting rights in a forest district had responsibility to process the wood in the same area. Three months later a fire destroys Tolko's Louis Creek sawmill. More than 200 high paying full time production jobs and many seconary and support jobs were immediately lost to an already financially troubled region. Then Tolko, thanks to these Liberals, turns around, takes 60 cent on the dollar insurance payments for the loss rather than rebuild and get full payments. In giving up the 40 cents on the dollar, Tolko can simply take the money and run, severing any responsibility to the community and leaving a burned-out mill as a legacy to its corporate prorities. What makes it even worse is that local Liberal MLA Keven Krueger remained in denial about his government complicity for months, claiming lazy sawmill workers were the reason why Tolko fled. Yes, lazy sawmill workers, an argument that even Tolko openly denied. As for the fire itself, I too share your sense that the Liberals can't escape responsibility for gutting the forest service of the people who might have properly managed that fire. But it doesn't end there. During that fire there was much interference by politicians into fire fighting efforts who seemed more interested in keeping the media out of the region than in protecting anyone's property or lives. To top it off, Campbell's Liberals then had the nerve to hire disgraced former Manitoba Conservative premier Gary Filman to prepare a report on that summer's fires and efforts to control them. Filman, who prior to that probably didn't know the difference between arid interior forests and damp coastal forests nor the difficulties of steep mountain terrain, presented exactly what Campbell wanted, a virtual white-wash that lauded the Liberals. Word is that Krueger is now publicy booed at community events and appears set to join Gary Colins and other Liberals in leaving office. But "foghorn" Krueger appears determined to force his constituents to turf him rather than doing the right thing. But then maybe there's a financial advantage to being fired.

isn't one of filmans former aids working for gordo? That might be the connection there! I thought that was pretty odd myself why wouldn't he (if concerned about the public good) appoint someone who knew about b.c. forestry to do that report or not do it and save us a few hundred k like a true fiscal conservative? Kreuger has to be worried about his remarks because the people I know around there don't take crap from anyone, and they are ticked off!

Nice try vicki, but you forget that you most likely heard it all on CanWest (you know, the ones who are in charge of reporting the news you don't trust, (except the rumors about the "others")) -

I heard the fire was started by a careless person flicking a cigarette butt from his roof while he was adjusting his sat dish. I also heard he was a grower.

I didn't notice Filmon pointing any fingers at forestry workers and how could the Premier have "forced" the mill owner to rebuild, at gunpoint? Could it be that the area was running out of wood?

don't watch much canwest binny old boy, oh yes of coarse spread a malicious rumour he was a grower to add to your feeble refute. Nice try to you, it was changes made to the forest practices code that allows the multinationals to haul wood wherever the hell they want to. This makes gordo and company 100% responsible for what happened to the people who worked for Tolko! There is lots of wood left in the Barriere area and if they run out I’m sure gordo would give them access to the local parks! I have friends and relatives in Kamploops and Barriere so I don’t need any canwest news trust me! You are right though I probably wouldn’t believe them as I don’t think they have much credibility as I have said before, I have a tendency to avoid their rhetoric!

Vick, do you see what I mean about the friendly (I'm stretching there), idiot? I do wonder, did Binny hear what he claims he did about the cause of the fire on Can/west or was he talking to Liberal MLAs?

"reduce your consumerism".......if I reduce my consumerism any more than I already have it will be in a deficit and I'll be walking nekkid in the rain. It is raining in Tahsis today, the mist is thick, the bluff across the river peeks in and out of the fog, the big face in the rock winks at me and I really wonder if I have a bad case of the blues or if I've actually gone clear around the bend, over the tip, snapped my twig, gone over the water, because NOTHING suggested in any of the above seems to me to make any SENSE at all...we all seem to be experiencing a kind of hubris, as if the fate of the free world depends on whether this arstle or that arstle gets elected...the political parties have shifted position so much in the past eight to ten years...the NDP is no more "socialist" than the T. Eaton company or the Hudsons' Bay...the Liberals flat-out aren't the least bit liberal except in the way they hand OUR money over to THEIR friends...so...here's my take for today... I am still pondering the news that THREE companies who had fuck all to do with the making of a documentary on hockey (ohmigawd yes what else) got huge sums of money from the feds..what if we all write in and say HEY, I had fuck all to do with making that documentary, could you please send me MY ill gotten gains by return mail...Lewis Swift..Coyote...Fi...what say we start our own political party...we just tell the truth and then crack jokes about it...maybe we are all taking these witherdicks so seriously we've given them delusions of grandeur...such a tremor as went through the hysterics who serve up the TV news because Ferret Collins left the sinking ship...the sky is falling the sky is falling the sky is falling.....well, when the sky is falling lie on your back with your feet in the air...one does what one can...me, I'm going to take the dogs out to collect our negative ions and I promise myself I will, for the next half hour at least, not give those trough swilling swine the respect of considering them to be the least bloody bit important regardless which party they claim they represent.

I'd form a political movement with you and these good folks anytime, Anne. They don't come any better quality.

Why so much to critisize Global? Not socialist CBC/Goergia Strait? Honest people not only left-wing.

grivnic good question why don't you go to the link anonymous was kind enough to give us on another thread! “Common Ground: Global Media” at http://www.dragonflymedia.com/cg/cg3112/globalmedia3112.html

A startling example of the problem became highly visible in the United States in early 2004, about nine months after the U.S. invasion of Iraq. A national survey found that people who received their news and information from Fox News (as much as 40 percent of the population) had an entirely different view of the circumstances that led up to the war than people who read newspapers or watched other networks. Fox News has consistently shown a strong right-wing, pro-war leaning in its coverage. So the polls showed that 80 percent of Fox viewers believed at least one of the following: that there was a conspiratorial connection between Saddam Hussein and Al Queda terrorists, or that weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq, or that the majority of the world population supported U.S. activities there. Forty-five percent of Fox viewers believed all three, although it was already long after all other media and governments had accepted that there were no terrorists, no WMD, and little global support.

The CRTC was kind enough to let fox into Canada, one can only hope the harper and milke fans will be the only people watching or we will be swallowed by the elepant next door! These are really scarey times if you do your homework, try reading Hurtigs Vanishing Country the stats are all from Stats Canada and it will open your eyes to how many of our Companies are now owned by the u.s.! Some might not be concerned about this but I think anyone who really loves this country has to be worried! Btw I watched a talking head on ctv's news channel for a few minutes, they did the story on the tragic mine incident in Yellowknife where a miner blew up some strike breakers, the judge placed blame on most of the players including the pinkertons management union etc but ctv said the judge placed blame on the union and that was it! What a lie, no mention of the rest of the story, that is media manipulation and they should be called on it! There sick people in all walks of society! And you wonder why we are bashing them here??? I try to find out what really happened with out the media spin, do you?

Nice to hear from you, anne. I hpoe all is going well for you, or at least as well as can be expected, in this disastrous "new era" of selling bc out at 10 cents on the dollar to gordon liar's friends and owners. Good idea, about that political party, but I don't know if bc's ready...if it helps at all, I believe the bc liars are going to lose the next election, especially with what I see from the mainstream in canwest sound-off posts. Let's hope the ndp installs a new ministry when they get elected: The Ministry for Suing the BC Liars and their Corporate Owners For Their Last Dime, staffed by tyee posters, such as yourself and yours truly, for, as gordon liar squeeks, "Dare to dream..."

To return to the point, It's my opinion that, unless the Green Parties develop and promote a coherent platform, and do it in a hurry, they will remain just another marginal political entity in the stewpot. I like "witnessing" and sitting around "blue-skying" as much as the next person, but the condition of our beloved earth is nearing critical. If we are serious about trying to maintain and then improve the earth's health, let's quit whining and get started.

Agreed. But it will be a very sorry start to improving the earth`s health by re-electing Gordo Campbell.

got any suggestions on how we do this RougePierre we seem to have right wing dictators running both provinces who do not know what the word environment means!

Check out this new political party www.worklessparty.org

Vick that suggestion about the workless party was from me.

thanks Henry but I don't think we need any vote splitting the way gordo is spending our hard earned tax money on spin adds to get himself re-elected! Hey binny don't you work on Sundays?

The real shame here is that a few egos feel they have to highjack these forums for personal battles. There are very important issues that should be given the time and respect that they deserve. Perhaps someone should rend the forum so they can duke it out once and for all and then the rest of us can resume calm rational discussion of these issues

Tom Lalonde, I agree with you. The tone of this forum has been disappointing, with most of the 'arguments' being ad hominem. To answer the original title question - "Where will Green voters go?" -, one Green voter isn't going anywhere. My vote stays Green. No party and no leader is perfect. None of the three leaders have performed well, and Adrienne Carr's recent blunders won't be enough to change my vote - although they do have me writing to her expressing dismay and the reasons for it. The party has possibilities way beyond 'mere' environmentalism, as will be seen when its 2005 platform is released. I'd like to answer 'ch', from the post of 12/10/2004 1:18:32 PM, who wrote: "Greens will never get enough support as they only attract idealists (the young who have no one to support or care for but themselves and haven't quite got a grip on reality as yet) and eliteists (the very rich who can afford to have any opinion they want)." ch, your description of Green supporters may have been correct back in the 80s, but it isn't now. Myself and other Greens of my acquaintance are neither young nor rich; in fact, many new Greens live below the poverty line. As one person recently put it, "The Green Party has given me hope and purpose. A lot of people need that right now." Most supporters of the party are not naive enough to think the Greens will get voted in as the Government or Official Opposition, but we do see working toward the goal of having Green MLAs as something worthwhile.

Ocean, I'm just aware of how I see things around me today. I am not familiar with the Greens of the 80's. I do know plenty of Green supporters, and only one of them is middle class. The rest are below and above so to speak. I recently went to hear Carole James speak, and was very surprised by how many Greens there were in the crowd. They were busy attacking her and the NDP. I was quite suprised by this. Tell me what it is that the Greens don't like?

Tom Lalonde I think the topic is pretty much covered here and in other stories, you have die hard liberals like binny bashing the ndp, a few greens still supporting Carr, some NDP, and people like me who are anything but gordo and think he has done far to much damage! I can't think of anything scarier then seeing him with another majority can you? He i s quietly supporting coal bed methane gas extraction and sable fish farming to mention a few, how scary is that, if you are really concerned about the enviroment why wouldn't you throw your support behind James who could form the next government, join the party and work from within to get them greener! To vote for Carr outside of her home riding is in my opinion a wasted vote and gives gordo the opportunity to win again!

Ch, thank you for your question: "Greens ... were busy attacking [Carole James] and the NDP. I was quite suprised by this. Tell me what it is that the Greens don't like?" First, let me say that I don't like anyone attacking anyone else, no matter what party colours he or she wears. That said, it appears to me that James has been particularly hostile in her attacks against the Liberals. That wouldn't be so bad if she offered something constructive in addition to the attacks, but she hasn't. That really puts me off and I know of two NDP supporters who have turned against the NDP because of it. I also differ philosophically with the NDP. For example, I don't see top-down management (Big Government) as the solution to poverty. That kind of approach is demeaning, as though 'they' need 'our' help. There is a role for government of course, but it should be much more at-arms-length, enabling and encouraging communities to take the lead. It's in communities, after all, that people live and so that is where marginalized people are most likely to be invited and enabled to participate in creating solutions.

Vick - the NDP have proven their worth when they were in power for nine years. I strongly doubt the changing of the leader has actually done anything to change to overall party. Win at all costs, vanquish your enemies and promise everything, the Greens simply won't stoop to this level and you can use that against us Greens if you like.

Good of you to finally admit that "the ndp have proven their worth for the nine years they were in power," Rockerbiff. Now when can we expect you and other votesplitting greens to step down?? Will you be making a media announcement to your supporters, to support the REAL green party, the ndp, in your riding?

Ocean, you have got to be kidding when you say Carole James was "particularly hostile" to the Liberals. Aren't you? I mean, how can you be neutral when Campbell has caused so much harm?Oh, BTW, this article was on 'where will the green voters go'. But you appear to be so self absorbed in trying to trash the NDP, you probably hadn't noticed you come across like one of those egos that Tom Lalondes complains about above.

don't have anything against the greens, I do fear what will happen to the environment if gordo gets in again! Now is the time for anyone who is concerned about the environment to help Carol James defeat the liberlas or we are in huge trouble if he gets another land slide!

VANCOUVER (CP) -- Former cabinet minister and current NDP candidate Harry Lali has apologized to a Liberal MLA for comments made in a Lower Mainland newspaper.

In a column in the Indo-Canadian Voice, Lali accused Patty Sahota of betraying her responsibility to her race as a government member.

Lali wrote that the Burnaby-Edmonds MLA "has completely abrogated her responsibility to her race and, along with the other six South Asians in her caucus, has left the task of representing South Asians for the last three and a half years to Gordon Campbell." On Friday, Lali issued a statement saying his remarks were not intended to embarrass anyone. "I want to apologize to Ms. Sahota," he said. "My intention was never to offend Ms. Sahota or anyone else." >p> Earlier in the day, Sahota said if Lali did not apologize, NDP leader Carole James should declare him unfit to be a party candidate in the May provincial election. Lali is running in his former seat of Yale-Lillooet.

James told The Canadian Press on Friday he remains the party's candidate there. She said, however, she had asked him to apologize to Sahota in a call on Thursday. "(I) said to him that his comments were inappropriate, that they did not represent my values, nor the values of New Democrats and that I expected him to issue an apology," James said. James said the comments had moved from political to personal. "That's where Harry's comments crossed the line," she said. "I asked for the apology, it was issued and, in my mind, it's done." Sahota called the comments racist. "There is no place in Canadian society for this kind of racially divisive politics," Sahota said in a news release. "As a society, we need to unite people, not divide them along racial lines. "I'm proud of my heritage and I'm proud to be a Canadian. For a politician to say he only represents the people who share his ethnic background is unfortunate and wrong. It does nothing to build a stronger British Columbia." In his statement, Lali committed to keeping the debate political in the future. "I am very passionate about my politics and about political issues affecting my constituency of Yale-Lillooet," he said. "I am also very passionate about issues relating to the South Asian community where there is presently a strong debate raging about which party, NDP or Liberal, has done a better job of representation. "That is the context of the debate with Ms. Sahota," he said. "In the future it must remain political. I am committed to that."

Wow! Some hours ago I was googling around when I came across a blurb on The Tyee. Believe it or not I hadn't heard about this online zine before and so I clicked the button. Then, only minutes later, I spotted the article by Alisa Smith and thought hey that one seems relevant to what's happening today and went on to read it (little knowing that afterwards came THE COMMENTS!!! :-) Now 3 hours later I'm sitting back trying to grog all the incredible bits of info, stats, stabs, humour, and insights that all that verbiage produced. Amazing. Thanks to all of you for your respective comments. At this point I'm uptohere with conflicting arguments and will reserve my own thoughts for later. Congratulations to The Tyee for providing this info site and forum. Arthur

Your a sick puppy arthur

A lot of posters here just don't get it - The Green Party has a platform and identity that is distinct from the N-Dippers and the Neo-Cons. Period. The party is legitimate and draws from sentiments that do, indeed, draw from both the left and right, but generally it hangs out in the centre of the political spectrum, aligned with principles of (environmental) sustainability. It's a very honourable place to be, and I consider it an honour to continue to work in support of the GP. Nobody should be gulled by the shameless whoppers thrown around here by the zealots who regularly roost here. And as for Lewis Swift's admonitions about the Greens vote splitting - it ain't so, baby, and just because you believe it in that highly imaginative cranium of yours doesn't make it so!

I mean, gimme a break ... the GP reflects the sentiments of many thoughtful BC citizens who can and have defined a future that is not dominated by Gordo and his band of Big Business renegades or Big Union, now featuring those 'madcap masters of yesteryear' - 'Lali, Corky and Moe' !!

Move over. The Green Party has arrived and it's here to stay.

name withheld. It's "You're".

While harry lali may have stepped over the line, his comments seem essentially accurate: the bc liberal cabinet and government HAS TREATED its own minority members SHAMEFULLY. What did it take, three years before we even saw an asian in cabinet, and now we have only two? Are there any indo-canadian cabinet ministers in cabinet at ALL? If so, they are all in lesser cabinet posts. And then look AT the east indians formerly in the liberal government -BASI and VIRK, both facing criminal charges. Now look at all the reputable indo-canadians, in or connected with the ndp, moe sihota, brup, many more.

No, the fact irrefuteably remains that the gordon campbell cabinet is dominated entirely BY AGING CAUICASIAN MALES, you could probably find more ethnic diversity in ALABAMA, which now has more progressive child labor laws than bc. And today's victoria times colonist reports that the BC LIARS ARE VEERING EVEN MORE SHARPLY TO THE RIGHT, with all the so-called progressives quitting, whose ineffectual squeeks may have still moderated the "liberal's" policy a little. Many of those running for the liberals in 2005 are going to be anti abortionists, and those who believe that even the severely disabled shopuld BE TOSSED IN THE STREET.

A post above claims that many green supporters are low income; if so, you will be the first to be attacked if campbell's reelected by YOUR VOTE SPLITTING. While you may be progressive, rest assured that Carr, who has said not one word against gordon campbell's many attacks on the disadvantaged, is not. The federal greens are OWNED AND OPERATED BY A FORMER MIKE HARRIS TORY, WHICH SHOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. If you are true progressives, YOU ARE SIMPLY BEING USED. So support the true green party, the ndp. WE DON'T TRUST CORPORATIONS TO DO THE RIGHT THING NO MATTER WHO GETS HURT, UNLIKE CARR AND ROCKERBIFF!

In short Mr. Swift, Bc liberals appoint their Cabinet Ministers on merit without concern for "backstabbers".

"The true Green Party - the NDP'"... Somebody, quick!! check the expiry date on Lewis' egg nog ... he's hallucinating, again ... As I recall, a certain former NDP premier, a little runt seen recently posing alongside his new-NDP-era-buddy-nominee Adrian Dix, declared BC environmental advocates "enemies of BC" ... and the outrage from the NDP rank-and-file was ..... (wait for it) .... non-existant.

The Green Party is the GP is the GP ... it is not the NDP, nor does it wish it were the NDP. It does wish the NDP well, however.

Having read through all the responses to Alisa Smith’s article it’s clear that, like the province as a whole, there’s little in the way of consensus as far as where the Green vote will go next May. The die-hard NDPers see any votes going to the Greens as votes for the Liberals. The Liberals obviously could care less where the Green vote goes as their record speaks for itself on green issues. The Greens in turn are hardpressed at this time to increase their membership and support because of reasons which I suspect still eluded their strategists. The big problem in terms of electability for the Greens is not their platform but rather their leader/spokesperson Adriane Carr. I feel that she doesn’t have the intuitive sense nor the gut-inspired courage to be the astute politician that she likes to project to the general public. I say this because of personal dealings with her wherein I noted her inability to seize opportunities to act upon information that might have propelled the GP much further ahead in terms of public approbation. As I see it it’s a tough go to garner memberships when you don’t speak out vehemently against the injustices that have been occurring in this province since Campbell came to power and Carr has been extremely silent for someone who wants to gain the attention of the electorate and the mainstream media. Politics is a dog fight and if you ain’t willing to jump in and raise a ruckus when the obvious is happening then why would you expect people to suddenly think that you’re going to champion the good cause after they vote for you during the election? Carr appears to display more an element of arrogance rather than the fiesty vigor of an underdog novice (which she really is). I get the impression that she sometimes behaves as if she’s already the Premier and expects the masses to do her bidding regardless of the fact that she’s but the leader of a fledgling party. Style is extremely important in the business of politics as is content and the green content may be intelligent and pragmatic but if the medium for transmitting such knowledge is flawed then the message too will be skewed.

Thank you Arthur - she reminds me of the "egg lady"

Well put, arthur. And I would remind the greens that the ndp created more parks in bc than any previous government...nor did I say the ndp was perfect, but the ndp still looks greener than the green party to me, unless you mean "green" in the sense of inexperienced, and over confident.....

Lewis (the not so swift) Ya sure lewis, the bcgeu oops pardon me, the ndp created something that already exist here in b.c. trees, water, rocks,wild animals, drew a line around an area on a map then mandate it park,that sure requires a shit load of brains, give us a break, both you and allen profess to know so much, you two know diddle squat, practicaly every goverment we have had here, has mandated a park and or parks. Now that Tzedorah has joined up, I suppose the rest of b.c. will be tranformed in one large park, Then each area(park)will have it's own nice little welfare office and rather than a park manager, a social worker like Carol can issue us our cheques as we will all be camping as there will be no jobs, due to the fact that no industries are allowed in parks, and in the future no(canadian) humans will be allowed as well, as this province will be the play land for the rich americans(See the great bear economy article) now doesn't that make you and allen fell nice and warm and fuzzy all over.

C-bull, at the very least you could spell my name correctly. BTW, could you kindly list a few of the parks our current government has mandated. Perhaps you could add a list of parks created during Bill VanderZalm's term as premier as well, just so we can understand better what "practically every government we have had here" did or didn't do. I do want to take this time at the end, however, to wish you much better government (effective May 17),in the year ahead.

Oh ! so sorry about the misspell, Alien. Whats a BTW suppose to signify? NDP in a foreign language.

Allen funny is'nt, how you and your alter ego BSE(BTW) know all about how many parks there are but know squat about whether it's god or religion thats mentioned in the canadian charter of rights and freedoms. Almost forgot, along with knowing how many parks there are, you NDPers are also knowlegeable of the speed of the trains that pass through Salmon Arm, all good pertinent information for running a province, definitely NDP logic all the way.

C-gull - go easy on the alien his little sidekick swifty, (the little guy tends to crap himself when he hears the truth.) I guess they're just not aware enough to realize that almost all of the parks in this province were created before the socialists bullshitted their way into power. I wonder how fast those trains go - hopefully these idiots can jump a freight heading east to NDP country and we can be rid of them for good.

NAME Withheld---perfect,you hit the nail bang on.

Hey C-gull, seems like you and "name withheld" get a little put out when faced with a few realities. Please, answer my questions above about all those parks "practically every government" has created according to you. It shouldn't be too hard for you or "name withheld" to tally up all those parks your right-wing governments have created in recent years even without taking your shoes off. If you can't list more than handful (that's five), you might just name a couple. I truly hope that in the new year both of you come to the Tyee with something resembling a little intelligence. Oh, go ahead and call me a "socialist" or whatever drivel you quivelling right wingers spout when fear drives you to react.

Alien ALLEN come on get off the pot,prior to the 1972 communist government it was all (normal) governments in power, right, I don't know the exact numbers but Im sure 12 to 18 parks were installed and many were quite large, as well the normal peoples goverment have added more parks since and no I don't numbers,but I don't have any recollection of the 72 communist goverment installing any parks either but if my memory serves me right they did give birth by rectum to the BCGEU. Ok Alein now how about you answering my constitution question, you been beating around the bushes for about a month now on that one.How do you get off by referring to me as a "right winger" thats the problem with you extermists wing nuts, if some one normal disagrees with you, then you guys get all torque up out of shape. Tell me, do you Swift share the same rubber room.

Allen Alien Im sure you more than likly had a predetermined number of parks in mind before you popped the BIG question to me, don't over look the $20 million the the present government has allocated for the the trans canada trail and the rebuilding of the burnt out trestles near Kelowna, but hay Im sure you would have included this with out my input. I over looked to ask you in my 12/24/2004 11:26:05 PM comment,Besides building the Island Hyw. and repairing the Lions Gate bridge,what other major road projects did your bingo playing government accomplish , hummmm, Alein had your bingo players stayed in power any longer our road and bridge infrastructure would have surly collasped, your bunch doesn't believe in road and bridge work, now some else has to make up for the bingo players neglect, which also occurred when the bingo crew lost out in 74, how about a comment from you regarding the sexual discrimination complaint your juice king has settled on several weeks ago---ooo juicy juicy stuff.you guys are despicable.

C-gull, 12/24/2004 11:26:05 PM, writes: "...How do you get off by referring to me as a "right winger" thats the problem with you extermists wing nuts, if some one normal disagrees with you, then you guys get all torque up out of shape. Tell me, do you Swift share the same rubber room." Dear C-gull. As you profess to be just a "someone normal" why can't you debate the issues in a "normal" manner without all the resort to ad hominem attacks? That would be a welcome relief to all the insults mixed in with serious questions that I'm sure folks would be most interested in reading. This isn't meant to be a defense of Allan and/or his position on the issues but just a comment on the level of debate that's happening on this site. And Seasons greetings to all!

c-gull, perhaps I'm being over generous here, but sober up before trying to impress anyone with your thought process here. And please, when you do, just answer my simple question, which comes out of a dumb claim you made that "practically every government" has created parks in B.C. How many parks were created by this current government and how many by the VanderZalm, Rita Johnson government that disappeared in 1991? Please tell me a bit more about the $20 million your government has "allocated" for the Trans-Canada Trail and trestles in Kelowna? I couple of more questions. How much of the $20 million is coming from Ottawa and why won't your government do anything to rebuild the jobs lost in Barriere from the same fire season that burned the trestles? About 300 high paying permanent jobs lost there because your government amended the forest acts to allow forest companies to abandon communities. Now, to satisfy your inane question, I knew you were a right winger when you told me several weeks ago you didn't like Pierre Trudeau and his "speeding train". That understanding was cemented in your most recent postings when you refer to a middle-of-the-road party like the NDP as "communists." By the way, the same "communist government" that allowed workers to form the BCGEU, also created ICBC and the Agricultural Land Reserve, two 40-year-old pieces of legislation that even this fascist regime hasn't the intestinal fortitude to eliminate even though they hate it. I just love it. Hey, rumours now have it Geoff Plant will be announcing his move to the private sector any day now. That's quite a trend for a successful government, isn't it?

Allan I already told you 12-18 parks by previous governments, the present government hasn't completed it's mandate, so Im unable to give you any numbers. I stated "practically every government has mandated a park" I do not recall using the words all or every government. Yes ICBC and the ALR were great legislation, thats why 34 years on it's still here,but with the same token let's give the Social Credit government under W.A.C. Bennett credit for legislating in Medicare here in B.C. 40 years ago. Governments do not remove good legislation. Regarding the NDP and BCGEU their synonymous, not once have you or troup rebuted this. Allan whats this middle of the road crap,the NDP are so far to the left, that the fog line(shouler line)had to be moved to the road right of way to accommodate you guys, further more the NDP- BCGEU have accomplished very little for the average working stiff. You have ommited the main substance in your Trudeau remark, it was parts of the constitution that were the topic, to which yet, you have been evasive in your answers.Im not at all happy about the amended forest act,it has affected other areas also, be it not as bad as Barrier at this point of time,but Im concerned as to what it may do to several small towns in the future. The rumor I've heard is that Tolko and Weyerhaeuser swapped timber lots, Weyerhaeuser got Barriers timber and Tolko got Weyerhaeusers in the Merritt ,Princeton areas, the balance of the rumor is that in 10 years, there will be built a super sawmill at or in Kamloops,and that is when many small towns could lose their main and or only source of incomes. No, Im not at pleased about any of this. As for Geoff Plant isn't he the one that the Ladies from Bountyfull went to for help and were shown the back door.And no Im not right wing,I may be bit off to the right, but Im a lot closer to the middle of the road than you and your NDP-BCGEU bunch.

Allan I your over looked your question in regards to the trestle and trans Canada trail $20 millon funding, Im not sure if the feds are kicking in any of that $20 million money, but in the final analysis it matters not, as it comes from the same source you and me, correct. Arthur I hope you find this comment and my previous one, in a little better tone, seasons best to you

C-gull, your "final analysis" is correct. It all comes from you and me. So why would you suggest that our Liberal friends in Victoria are being so generous for announcing the spending of money Ottawa, rather than Victoria has directed at a project? Now, this BCGEU thing appears to be a real problem for you, yet I just don't understand why you would be asking me about it. They've certainly done more to help your "average working stiff" than this current government has with its extra minimum wage for young workers, elimination of minimal hours of work, the devious introduction of "voluntary" and "flexible" work arrangements into the natural imbalance already in the workforce, and the gutting of the labour code, employment standards legislation and the agencies and officials who once policed bad employers. But having said that, there are in my estimation better unions to represent your "average working stiff." But you've got me chuckling with this claim that old Whacky brought medicare into BC. Yes he was premier at the time, but it came into BC only because it was coming in as a national policy and even Whacky realized that after Tommy Douglas, an NDPer, by the way, was the only premier to deliver on his own. By the way, if Whacky did bring medicare to BC, then I guess that means he is responsbile for the formation of the most militant union in the province when he allowed doctors to set up the BC Medical Association. Tell me, what has the BCMA done for "your average working stiff" lately?

Allan Im well aware that Tommy Douglas of the "CCF" party was the oringinator of medicare,which Im sure all canadians are thankful for.Personaly Im not troubled by the BCMA, I feel they earn their way,wasn't it the NDP who curtailed the training of Doctors and Nurses in the early 90's. Tell me though, who was it that created that monster called the BCTF,Im sure you will come up with some pleasantries for them. As for the BCGEU it's not much of a union , real unions earn their way from ceritfying it's menbership then standing behind them, only legitimate unions such as operating enginners. teamsters, steel workers-iwa, boiler makers union and a whole raft more of what I refer to as private unions, are out there looking after their members and not sitting in some ministers office in Victoria hobnobbing and liveing the good life while their members go without decent reprsenatives out in the field.

C-gull, 12/26/2004 10:39:52 PM, writes: Arthur I hope you find this comment and my previous one, in a little better tone, seasons best to you. Yes, thanks C-gull. It's now a pleasure to read through the discourse untainted.

Oops. Sorry for omitting my name in the previous post C-gull. I find it interesting that you refer to the BCTF as the "monster". How so? If it was, then the addition of the College of Teachers has to be another monster piled on top of the first. Who was responsible for this level of additional red tape and beaurocratic bungling and control? Vander Zalm's Socred wasn't it. I must concur with you though on the BCGEU C-gull. I was supposedly a member in good standing until the day came when the Socreds decided to privatize my position as a Park Warden and hand over the job to the private sector. What did the BCGEU do to defend me? Diddley squat!

C-gull, your almost as good a another Liberal scandal in Victoria to generate response so please stick around. Perhaps you can tell me why so many of the so-called "private" unions you appear to favour are still taking their marching orders from overstuffed porkers in Washington D.C and New York city. Wasn't it Washington-based "international" unions that saw the pension plans of their BC membership pretty well wiped out a few years ago because of bad financial advice that saw virtually every penny invested in the shaky real estate schemes of others? Is that what you call "looking after their members"? Is this the same group of "private" unions that still put more effort into fighting off each other in long-outdated jurisdictional freys than in servicing their own membership's real needs? Besides the international reps, who wins in those juridictional disputes? Remember your "train speeding through Salmon Arm"? Wasn't that good ol' Teamster senator Ed Lawson sitting beside Pierre Trudeau as the PM fingered you and other Reform-type revolutionaries that evening? I'm really curious why you want to slam the public sector unions. Is it because they follow democratic procedures rather than taking direction from guys in suits who prefer to hold their conventions in Miami?

Arthur-Allan why do I refer to the BCTF as a monster,because it's is a big snow ball rolling down a hill,only getting bigger, not any better,a few years back I had a gentlman assisting me on a small job, one day he brought his son along ,as it was a school day I inquired as to why boy wasn't at school, he explained that the boy had been in trouble several times at school, not for serious things but silly antics also he was no longer welcome to the school apparently at age 15 or 16 (I can't recall which he stated) the school could refuse to accept him back and this was now about to occur,out of concern for this boy I tried to encourage his father to have the school board interced on the boys behalf,I felt as a child he does have specific and special rights,the father threw his arms up and stated you can't fight the teachers's their right, were wrong,needless to say the boy failed at most job attempts, went on to get into problems with the legal system, eventually left the province, Im very confident that with a little patience and perseverance more could have been done with this young boy, but he was being a pain in the ass so he got chucked, the system failed him and would the monster give a hoot,I dought it, the monster looks after it's own.Oh I know the monster and school boards would plead it's policy we have to enforce it, yea right and I wounder who would it have been who flexed their political muscle and influence in order to get such a policy put inplace I feel that the boy rights as laid out under the charter of rights and freedom were infringed upon, but being a child he was unaware of his rights. regarding union pensions, Yes some private unions lost their members pension fund, in fact I had paid into the teamsters, which incidently I should inquire about soon,at my last place of employment where I was at for a number of years the union there wanted to administer our pension plan, they tried on several occasions but always the crew turned the union down, we self administered our own pension which for me has worked fine, so far, the unions it seems have a poor track record in administating pension plans, if a private union does lose your investment, those people have no fall back correct, so tell me allen didn't a teacher pension fund fold or disappear about 15-20 years back and did we not the citizens of bc couver their losses,appears as double standards It only took you a month to admit that Pierre fingered the folks in salmon arm The only public sector union that I mentioned was the PEOPLES PARTY subsiduary the bcgeu, their not only are a public sector union but have also crossed over to the private sectior where I think they have failed miserably,you mention jurisdictional freys I assume you are refering to union raiding another union I belive the ndp rewrote the labour act on making it pretty well impossible to achive raiding, the only union that Im aware of who had increased their membership substantially up to a couple of years ago was the bcgeu. I just had a finial thought maybe that wasn't Pierre's finger,you say ED was on that "speeding train" interesting

C-gull, you are pathetic. First you praise the private sector unions and then when shown a few warts, you are dumping all over them. You trash a whole pile of public sector unions including the BCTF, but then claim you were only mentioning the BCGEU. But what really has me shaking my head is your BS about teachers controlling school districts and determining which students are allowed to attend class. If even half of the accusations you have levelled against unnamed teachers in an unnamed school district had a shred of truth to them, you and virtually every other right-wing fanatic who either supports or is supported by Gordon Campbells would have the Vancouver Sun, Province and BCTV doing specials and ambushing innocent teachers on a daily basis. Quite frankly, I call that cowardly behavour and I think you owe all teachers and school districts an apology for what certainly sound like a concocted untruth. That you don't know what I was talking about when I referred to jurisidctional disputes within international unions tells me you know quite little about the unions you were lauding in your post yesterday. But please, if you are going to respond once again, pay attention to what others write in reaction. I have never suggested Pierre Trudeau didn't give you and your Reform revolutionaries the finger in Salmon Arm. He certainly did, but he did not do it on the "speeding" train you claim. Perhaps the reality was Trudeau gave you his salute and by the time you and your gang of red-necks had deciphered the one-finger statement his train was already long gone. Speed, like stupidity, is relative to those who experience it. Next time bring a watch to the protest.

Allan unlike you left wingers who use every one else to blame for your incompetance, I don't have to, I can look you or your comrades in the eye and state, I don't bull shit, ALLEN old chap I don't have to, bin there done that, money talks and bullshit walks and your full of the latter old chap, I would prefer to be addresed a red neck rather than being chicken shit such as youself , simply read over your threads its all there, do you recall when I mentioned the lack of property rights in the charter , you replied in the Leaving Bountful thread-- allan 11/23/2004 1:44:53pm "your private property red herring that was properly was tossed" that statement exposed your lack of intelligence,in other words you don't know what your talking about OLD CHAP, Im really starting to suspect that you and Swift are one and the same.

C=gull, do you work in government communications or are you always this shallow? Was it the errors in the sentence you quote above that prompts your statement or do you think I have a lack of intelligence because I think your idea of protecting property rights in the Constitution is a load of bull? If its the former, I confess to having made an error I didn't edit out later. Most of the posters and readers here manage to great around these regretful errors. What can I say, but READ REAL SLOW C-Gull. If you are twisted out of shape because I give absolutely no weight to your property rights red-herring, may I wish you an expropriation notice at the most inconvenient of times. But, what I suspect you are really whining about is that I exposed you for what you are, a pathetic right-winger who can't remember from one post to the next the weak positions you put forward and when they are subsequently thrown back in your face, you revert to the favorite weapon of the idiot, you lash out. Go back and read my posts in response to yours. While I may not be very charitable in replying, I at least try to stick to the issues. Tired cliches such as your latest "bin there done that, money talks and bullshit walks," simply prove you have no imagination. If you want contradictions, go back and read your postings on this story, but be careful you don't get dizzy with all the back and forth wavering.

ALLAN you constantly criticize peoples comments ,you do not offer credible suggestions, solutions, you insult and demean, doing this must give you some sort of perverted satisfaction. (this is the location again where I lash out at you like an idiot so close your eyes) your under standing of property rights, land, real estate is not the property rights version that Pierre omitted from the charter this is where you had a blond moment the word "property" means ownership it had dick all to do with real estate had property rights been entrenched then, eg with the recent invoking of the gun law, the removeal or taking away peoples guns may have been difficult or possibly impossible now having said that I know that your salivating and wanting to shout out in a high screeching voice thats why that idiot is ragging on about property rights, sorry Im a firm beliiever in some type of gun control unfortunately the present one is doomed for failure. Allow me to try to bring you up to speed, A remark made by you in regards to property rights went some thing like this, without property rights you and your lackeys would be are unable to exploit from real estate deals, this was not exactly what you stated but a long those lines, if property rights had been entrenched the ranchers,farmers, people with hobby farms etc would now have protection from the methane coals gas developers, they could have prevented the exploitation of their land, the gas company could have prevented from entering their land and force meaningful negotiations, but now due to any lack of protection the gas companies have total rights and control over these peoples land and basically the land owners have to accept what is offered to them. Allan you just can't grasp any of this can you,Pierre was a lawyer,his constitution is designed to make work for lawyers it does squat for the average person,but if property rights had been included then the average person would have had meaningful protection, There also would be less need for so many lawyers. I could go on with your other off the wall statements but what for, it's very apparent to me that your a self proclaimed intellectual perfectionist that you hold your self in very high esteem and your unable to purchase a hat, due swelling size of your head. What are you allan, a 65 year old career student who still lives at home with his parents? no imagination eh

C-gull, perhaps you can tell me why Canadian realtors were among the strongest proponents to have property rights enshrined in the Constitution. While a good number of them may have seen it as a means of being able to keep their guns, you flatter yourself and other gun owners if you think all the noise about property rights had anything to do with your right to bear arms. No blonde here but some of my best friends are and no doubt will wonder why your picking on them all of a sudden. Some of them are avid hunters too. I see you are again dragging the late Pierre Trudeau into this issue, as you may, given that he is primarily responsible for our own Constitution. But to suggest that he was really working as the advance man for a whole new crop of legal beagles is like suggesting the fight to enshrine property rights was simply a failed conspiracy by gun nuts to remain prepared for the red hordes. Did Alberta's Conservative government oppose property rights to protect ranchers, farmers or hobby farmers from intrusions by its prime source of campaign contributions? No, it specifically supported property rights. Asked today, I suspect Ralph Klein would again champion property rights and argue they should have been included, however, when was the last time good ol' Ralphie or his fellow Tories supported homwowners against incursions from oil exploiters. The conservatives also opposed gun legislation, but argued separately, each as separate issues. Had your property rights won the day back then, would you have the right not to register an automobile, yet drive it, or be able to dump whatever poison you wanted onto you private property? I doubt it. While I do support aspects of the "my home is my castle" philosophy, I've learned over the years (no, not 65 yet), rights have to be balanced. Your right to have guns runs up against the rights of others in your community to be protected from the excesses your right may impose on them if you stock your castle with "so-called defensive or hunting weapons. There comes a time when the community says we (through our police) have the right to enter your home and remove those weapons if they pose sufficient danger to the public. Now as to being negative, I think I have offered a number of suggestions on various articles in the Tyee. Positive or negative is like sweet or not so sweet and depends sometimes on what you ate previously. Your repeated gripes about Trudeau could certainly been seen as raking the muck long after it's dried. Your attacks on unions, in which you rant endlessly in vague and predictable directions without anything resembling a solid fact, are, in my estimation, anything but positive, but it's your casual use of hot-button words and phrases you like to colour your posts with that most turn my crank, like the "speeding train" whizzing through downtown Salmon Arm. I mean, that's right out of a Superman comic. In conclusion, I do live at home, my home in which I'm the parent, sometimes fancy myself a student of life, but have given up thinking intellectual perfection is an achievable goal this time around. Perhaps if I'm lucky and come back as a deer or other "game" animal gun laws will give me the protection I need to for true intellectual bliss.

Good luck and Happy New Years, "Bambi" and may you find your self a well hung buck.

C-gull, go eat some garbage, only next time, regurgitate it elsewhere...

Ya you bet "Not So" will do it at the next NDP shin dig, only problem is nobody will be able to distinguish it from all the BS that's being banded about,little out of your element aren't you, thought this thread was for the greens not you reds.

There, there...