Agreed. Funny how these same people don't fly into action when the leader of China or other repressive regimes visit Canada. I am no fan of George Bush and would have worked my ass off to defeat him if I lived in the US, but this is fantasyland stuff. By all means protest his visit, but trying to stop him from enetering Canada? It's in trying to take that kind of action that the far left exposes both its hypocrisy and its own self-righteous bigotry. "We don't agree with you so you shouldn't be allowed to speak" is a position I will never support no matter who espouses it.

i'm pretty sure bush has a real good lawyer and would be able beat any charges. he would probably countersue and canada would have to give him vancouver island.

Worth a try I say,like pinochet,idi amin,zeming of prc,and added assortment of relics of crimes against humanity,show these guys,usually a guy, no compassion , what have they got that makes them immune to human rights as we all must be human? In short the economic sanctions against canada as a ramification will only show how wrong and out of step bush's policies are. Like m.thatcher ,he will be seen by many as not more than an opportunist, and genuine threat to humanity. TheUSA does not abide by the court in the hague, during the nicaraugan sandanista days the gulf of nicoya on the pacific coast was blocked by anti submarine nets /mines to deter shipments to supply arms against somoza [the USA favourite]The court international in the Hague announced that was a move not allowed ,then the USA said we are not abiding by your ruling. This they of course do constantly,not in step with the rest of the world.

I agree that it is unlikely that we will be able to bring Bush to trial. Not for the comment "it is that kind of action that the far left exposes both its hypocrisy and its own self-righteous bigotry" but for other reasons. The war crimes that have been committed in Afghanistan and Iraq are well documented. It is unequivocal that they should be brought to trial with the full force of the Nuremburg trials as precedent. This will never happen because the u.s. has almost 1/2 of the worlds armaments and spends 1/2 of the yearly worldwide global armaments budget. So they will never be tried because they are too big and powerful. This is what we mean by justice, right? An additional note, we can't even get proper trials started against our own for their involvement in (for instance) Haiti. I know the u.s. is the worst perpetrator of strong arm tactics the world around. I don't want to suggest that efforts to change this should not be made, however we are not pure and white in these matters either. As good Canadians we should keep in mind our own shortcomings even as we criticize the worlds worst offender.

Yeah, that's going to happen...

Provocative but about a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, I agree, which is kind of depressing... So we have to continue watching U.S. leaders stomping around the world, killing, torturing, stealing & enforcing regime change in the name of democracy, human rights and the rule of law--principles to which they know they can never be held accountable.... The only ones who can hold them accountable are the Americans themselves. (Sigh!) A national poll following the horrific revelations about Abu Ghraib showed that more than half of Americans (especially males and Republicans) supported the use of torture if U.S. "national security" was at stake.... And yes, no country can claim absolute purity in these matters, but there is a huge difference between a Lynndie England running amok and a George Bush publicly rejecting the Geneva Convention, the International Criminal Court, the UN and commissioning a legal brief to sanction the use of torture.... Sometimes it seems that much of the so-called progress of human civilization over the past several thousand years has been largely illusory.

There is only one way to challenge the empire and it can be practised by all. Just dont buy their products. This is the only power you have and it is considerable.

Right on, TJ!

The older I get, the more I realize that it's the activists and idealists of this world that bring about change. My thanks to you all: the rest are just flotsam. I'd love to see Bush et al charged, denied entry, and rejected as the criminals they are. TJ, you're absolutely right, and I already boycott US goods. But how many of you out there have been running down across the line to buy cheap gas, cheap milk, cheap anything? By doing so, you're cutting your own throat in the long run. Shame on you. Whatever happened to "Buy Canadian"?

Aside from boycotts, I think that the main point is to make the statement "Bush-Americans are war criminals" public and keep on that. It's not about debate or opinion, but the expression of truth. There is considerable power in that.

Yeah, not a chance in hell that Bush would ever see an international war crimes type of tribunal for the obvious reasons stated by others.

Hitting them in the pocket book is a good way to start but I don’t really want to punish innocent Americans who are trying to live within their current situation. Personally I really have no interest in spending any of my time or money in the States, be it on vacation or on cheesy gas and beer. Call me a proud backward ass Canadian simpleton but I make my money here so I spend it here where taxes gathered go to pay for things such as healthcare. Not at the Bellis Fair mall when the Looney happens to jump past the 85 cent mark. I’m not by no means anti-American but rather just Anti-Republican.

Oh well, if you plan to protest anywhere near Bush be prepared to be pepper sprayed like they did at the Apec Summit.

Remember………

C+P………. Commission er Hughes' task is to investigate the conduct of Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers who were involved in policing a major international conference held in Vancouver in November 1997. A summit of leaders of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (A.P.E.C.) "economies"-APEC never refers to its member countries as "states" or "countries"-was held at the Museum of Anthropology on the University of British Columbia (U.B.C.) campus on 25 November. Predictably enough, demonstrations were held. Things went awfully wrong, resulting in a number of complaints regarding alleged police misconduct. These complaints included allegations of wrongful arrests, improper strip searches, and unlawful seizure of communications equipment. Also alleged by complainants was the creation of illegal security perimeters, an unconstitutional infringement of protected rights including freedoms of speech, assembly and movement, the harassment of law-abiding citizens, and the excessive or gratuitous application of force including the use of pepper spray and police dogs.

groovypippin is obviously unaware that the libertarian left has always opposed all despots and war criminals, those of China, Indonesia, and everywhere else as well as Bush. Some leftists might be hypocrits , but not all of us. Get yer facts staight first

I note that Bill Clinton, noted war criminal (no UN endorsement of the little bombing exercise in Serbia) managed to sneak into Toronto to sign a few hundred books without Dudley DoRight slipping on the silver bracelets.

But surely, if we are going to start arresting war criminals we should start at home. Chretien and BC's very own Lloyd Axworthy were up to their elbows bombing the hell out of Serbia without so much as a by your leave from the UN. (And action, I might say, I throughly approved of.)

A grip is needed here folks.

I was at the A.P.E.C. march and rally at UBC in 97 and it really got ugly. Although I am a HUGE supporter of our right to gather peacefully and make ourselves heard I get bothered by the usual malpheasants who decide to trash the locations in the process. I hope we have a great turnout of marchers when the American president arrives and I doubly hope that activists don't go and tarnish the constitutional rights of the rest of us by destroying. Protest should be part of a constructive process.

I disagree with Gail Davidson that "the prime minister should rescind his invitation to Bush". The obvious course of action would be to have the RCMP arrest Bush, and deport him to Syria.

Let ME after those Malpheasants. Let me! Let me! I know exactly what to do with fowl evil-doers. Grrr, Grrr, Grrrrr.

Hit them in their pocket book, where it hurts. Boycott American goods and product. That's the only language this criminal undestands. As it, everybody has already started getting out of the sinking ship (US dollar), which is understandable.

Hit them in the pocket book? Ok, give me a list of places that AREN'T owned by American companies and I'll give it a shot. Damn, just when Starbuck's has those nice eggnog lattes going on... can I get those anywhere else?

And Fi nails it, of course. Canada is already largely a US possession. They just don't need to overtly occupy us, as we do that quite well ourselves for them, so that they can have their way with us up the old butt, without the expense if we actually resisted, seriously. And we live the illusion, or delusion of independance by displaying just enough "free will" that we don't really piss them off. Our ruling class has the typical cowards instinct of knowing just when to pull up without going too far.

A colonial mentality, bootlicking bunch, them Canucks-, so long as they have the NHL. Welllll... the illusion of, there too.

Yes, Coyote, but there's always a place to start, isn't there? Or to continue as the case may be.

Dictator Bush has stolen *two* elections in the U.S. The people did NOT elect this Reichwing whackjob, and we want an end to the Bush regime. We must undo the coup! Sincerely, Lori R. Price Gen. Mgr., Citizens for Legitimate Government http://www.legitgov.org/ The Grand Refusal http://www.legitgov.org/#grand_refusal Receive the CLG Newsletter every day!

"Yes, Coyote, but there's always a place to start, isn't there?" asks 'the fox'.

Indeed, my friend. At least I hope and act on the presumption thay it is all not yet lost. There is need of some serious sign of "will" however. Once that is present in large enough measure, there is always a way.

I recently made 2 overseas puchases. My options were to pay in euros or $u.s. I used Euros even though it cost more that way. I am taking a trip and I will not be buying travellers cheques in $u.s. It is extremely difficult not to buy from u.s. companies here in Canada but there are small ways we can consciously choose not to support them. If we all start doing that to the best of our ability hopefully we can have a democratizing influence that will bring about change. I would like to see and participate in more radical change but I just don't see that happenning here.

It seems there are some very regular visitors to this website and since I love a good conversation I'm going to jump into the mix. Fi and Coyote, There is no denying that the Canadian economy is a branch plant economy of the United States. The bulk of the goods, at least dollar value wise, of what is produced is then exported back into the U.S. This, of course, is why Canada and the U.S. have the largest trade relationship on the globe and is the long-term result of our entering NAFTA. NAFTA supporters knew that if we hadn't joined the boat, the relationship we now share would have ended up between the U.S. and Mexico. Cars and auto parts are the main name of that game. I would argue that this fact alone does not make us a colony of the US. But, lets continue. Magazines, including all dual-run publications like Time, People, Maxxim....must meet a Canadian content benchmark in every issue. This means that, by law, US publications must add different content to these magazines. Content that is more relavant or desirable to Canadians. We have a radicaly different system of Democracy, Justice and Health. Our education system operates on an entirely different philosophy and thanks to the decision not to go to war in Iraq we have boldly shown that we will not always go where the US leads, militarily. I suppose this leaves the TV and Capitalism as the final two similarities. Since Capitalism isn't going anywhere soon that leaves TV, the easiest of all these issues to deal with. Turn it off. On balance, I'd say we're doing a bit better than the pessemists would have us believe.

I'd urge Canadians living near the border, and that's most of us, to simply not travel into the U.S.. Not even for a quick fillup,to have a few cheap cool ones or a few sunny days golfing in Calif. Washington state and others keep stats and, if enough stop buying, the message will begin to show. If you meet Americans in Canada just sympathise with them about the mess their country is in. If the response suggests they're republicans don't be shy in condemning Bush, the war and the animals he has advising or leading him. If you need a bit of motivation, look at what ordinary people are achieving in the Ukraine these days by sticking to it and sticking together.

I love the comments here. All, know that there are many here in the US that are working to remove him from office as well, in whatever little way we can. I hate to say it, but boycotting is probably a good idea -- the GDP has gone down four times in a row now -- and our currency has lost it's position as first place in the world to either the Yen or the Euro depending on the day. The worst the economy gets the more this president is shown to be the liar he is. I just hope we can get our boys and girls home soon, and I just hope there IS an election in 2008.... www.scdemocratgirl.com Carolina Dancer

Agreed, Boycott any US product you can.Do not fly down to warm yourselves in one of their destination resorts. Tell our spineless regime to quit artificially deflating our dollar. Remove ourselves from free trade . Stand up and recoup our losses in the soft wood lumber rip off.Charge fair rates for exported Hydro but let our own nation have it at a minimal mark up. Employ Canadians and stop sending the care and control of Canadians southward in the name of fiscal management . What a crock. It is simply the selling of oursleves to become the 52 state, behind Puerto Rico.If you call that protectionism, so be it, but that is exatly what the good old boys to the south practice.

November 28, 2004 Mr. Bruce Campbell Toronto Globe and Mail GlobeandMail.com Via electronic mail:

Dear Mr. Campbell: I read with great interest your online article of 26 November titled “A Path through the Bush Visit”. I felt compelled to write to you after your description of the crossroads at which Canada finds itself. Millions of Americans admire and respect Canada just the way it is, and would be deeply disturbed to see a greater ideological integration with “the United States”. We would be so disturbed because of the damage Bush and his cohorts have done within the U.S. and abroad, and because the Bush group represents only a part of our country, and in my view certainly not the better part. Reputable historians, scholars and experts on our government have already written about George Bush and cohort’s damage to the U.S., and there is enough information for hundreds of books yet to come. Graydon Carter’s “What We’ve Lost”, Richard Clarke’s “Against All Enemies” and Ron Suskind’s “The Price of Loyalty” come immediately to mind. In addition to these books, I can point to statistics about how the U.S. has declined in a number of arenas. I am sure you are familiar with many of these already-the current accounts/budget deficit, job losses, failing airlines the world ranking of U.S. high school children in science and math (next to Mexico), and less well known the decline in patents and scientific articles. Bush and cohorts of course do not claim responsibility for any of these ills, but also of course have done nothing to address them. I think the damage of corruption that has occurred on Bush’s watch deserves particular attention. Whether is the Enron scandal (let us not forget George Bush’s friendship with the former head of Enron Ken Lay), cheating at brokerage firms, or Haliburton’s rape of the American taxpayer the connections to Bush and company are well established. I was shocked to read that Canada is considering accepting FDA judgments without any testing. After the recent Vioxx scandal, some have described our FDA as a “marketing arm of the drug companies”, an indication of corruption due to conflict of interests. And of course the greatest incidence of corruption is the Iraq war. I referred to the United States in quotes when talking about Canada’s potential decision for greater ideological integration in order to remind you and all other Canadians of how inaccurate this term is. Despite what you may read in the U.S. media about a “mandate”, the number of votes separating the better candidate John Kerry and George Bush was less than 2% of those cast. Even more telling, only around a hundred thousand votes in Ohio were decisive because of our electoral college system-and even this is in question. I can tell you that millions of people in Ohio are as concerned about their voting process as Bush is about what is happening in Ukraine (a little irony and hypocrisy here I think). The main topic of conversation among my friends is that we have no desire whatsoever to be “united” with the majority of Bush supporters-and the feeling is mutual, as some of them have suggested we should all “move to Canada”. These are people who: • Still believe that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq after all the evidence to the contrary • Are perfectly willing to use American soldiers and Iraqi civilians as “flypaper” (the lets create terrorism abroad so terrorists won’t come the U.S. group” • Buy vehicles like the “Hummer”, Lincoln Navigator and Suburban, which get atrocious gas mileage even as the world’s petroleum resources dwindle faster as the Asian economies grow. • Are more concerned about someone else’s homosexuality than their own health care or education for their children • Want to “teach Creationism” (how can you “teach” a science related subject that has no supporting evidence? Is the flat earth next?) • Are viewed as hypocrites by many truly religious people since they have illogical positions such as opposing abortion but also opposing social programs to support unwanted children. Let us also not forget that one of the largest and most influential religious groups supporting George Bush, the Southern Baptists, was founded as a pro-slavery organization. • If well heeled, have no moral compunction whatsoever about using religion as a tool to manipulate the “Wal-Mart Republicans” As Canadians prepare for Bush’s visit to your country, I hope you ask yourselves if the America created by the people I have described above is really the one you want to grow closer to, given that many other Americans don’t even want to grow closer to these people. I also hope that your fellow citizens will give George Bush the unwelcome welcome he so deserves. Thank you for your timely and thoughtful article. I wish you and your wonderful country the best always. Sincerely,

I don't know that the comment, "Capitalism isn't going anywhere soon." is entirely accurate. Though I guess that much depends on one's concept of time. I also think it much depends on where you are in the world.

Old Marx made an observation that, what he called "communism", though we can call what comes "next" whatever the hell we like, was likely not a practical possibility, or words to that effect, until the great historical mission of capitalism had been achieved, of creating an advanced industrial/technological economic base for societies, a disciplined and educated working class, and an internationalization of economic and social relationships. (There's more, of course, but close enough.)

During the period of the Russian Revolution and thereafter, until, ooohhhh, say, the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the emergence of the Communist Party of China as the main party of "capitalism" there, everyone had thought the evidence of the "national liberation" period of history, against old European imperialism and rising US imperialism was, that capitalism could now be bypassed as a necessary stage of development on the road to modernity . I think by now, the most recent body of evidence is, that capitalism is, in fact, a stage of development all societies have to pass through on the way to modernization, and the further evolution of society to higher social forms. (Which is not to claim that Marx was necessarily right about everything. And which one, even a Marxist should expect to be highly unlikely.)

Indeed, many parts of the world, even those parts of the world that had sought to bypass capitalist development, like Russia and China, have been compelled by real circumstances and socio-economic needs to go back and pick up capitalism, from where they left off feudalism and attempted to go straight to "communism", or whatever the hell label you want to hang on it. Being where we are at right now, in my view of things.

My central point being, that where the "advanced capitalist" world is at right now, is likely a whole hell of a lot nearer the end of capitalism than anyone, certainly any "revolutionary" has thought, since old Karl baby. It is turning out that the old boy was likely right and further seeing than anyone had imagined.

And the clearest evidence of that is, what is happening right now within the United States itself, the quagmire it is caught in, in the Middle East especially, and in the deteriorating social and economic relationships occurring "within" global capitalism itself, as a consequence of the rise of Neo-conservative/neo-fascist policy since the time of Reagan and Thatcher, and their profoundly destructive impact on capitalist development since.

Now, clearly it is too early yet to start claiming certainty about the imminent collapse of capitalism as a global system. What is clear though, for example arising out of this most recent WTO decision, to allow Europe and Canada to impose trade sanctions involving multi millions of dollars on the U.S., whilst its international debt escalates into the stratosphere, and its dollar collapses, threatening to drag the entire world into a possibly preciptous economic collapse, is that there is an extremely serious crises beginning to emerge "within" the global capitalist system.

I for one will want to watch these latest developments a little more closely, and for a little while longer yet, before I am prepared to say with any great certainty that capitalism will last for another hundred years, or for even another decade. I don't think, given the seriousness of recent economic developments, and the risks of global "intra-capitalist" war that arise out of the frictions and tensions created by US Imperialism's latest Empire Adventure in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East, that one can speak with certainty about anything just yet. Other than we are clearly entering an extremely "interesting" period of many sudden and unexpected possibilites. At which point I am reminded of the old Chinese admonition, "May you be spared having to live through interesting times." (Crudely put, I agree.)

My God! Even old Canada, loyal bootlicker of Yankee boots that it be, even with a Prime Minister who would really rather give old GWB a blowjob, is showing restive signs of being discontent with its NAFTA lot, as loyal and uncomplaining supplier of raw materials and carries of water for the US Empire! What is the world coming to????!!! The entire world is showing signs of wanting to get up off its fucking knees!

As that happens, I think, many things thought impossible to here, will suddenly begin to seem, at least, more possible. Though there is always that bothersome "worsening" tendency, before things get better. Sometimes necessary to motivate folks to get up off their asses. Which certainly "feels" about where we are.

As one of "these people" who's been toiling in the background building the case against Bush, I can assure the snotty critics above that rather than living in a "fantasy" activists such as myself live in a very real world -- one full of horrors that we can't ignore. For myself, I've witnessed, over the post-WWII period, the crimes of successive U.S. administrations and the shadowy criminals that do their dirty work wherever there is a U.S. "interest" to be served. Sure, America is not the only country to have transgressed international law, but find one other country that has so flaunted the rules of civilization it purports to represent, in more places, at more times, than the U.S. The Bush regime is now the most brazen criminal enterprise on earth, backed by the biggest stockpile of WMD the world has ever known. According to its own records, the U.S. security state directs “hundreds of employees on a daily basis . . . to break extremely serious laws in countries around the world.” The 1996 House Intelligence Committee report admits: “A safe estimate is that several hundred times every day (easily 100,000 times a year), [intelligence] officers engage in highly illegal activities.” I can assure readers that the case against Bush is highly persuasive. Much of the material compiled for the legal briefs comes from leaks within the Bush administration. Hence the frantic purge embarked upon by the neocons since the November 2 "election." The purpose of filing charges against Bush in the next couple of days is symbolic (though not frivolous) in large part and rumour has it that the possibility is being discussed with some trepidation in neo-con circles in Washington. So, before the chatterers look down their noses at this action, they might consider what the real purpose is . . . and the effects which already seem to be going in the desired direction.

Canada has a great opportunity to stand as a world leader in a world that hungers for a moral compass. It would be an act of monumental significance for your nation to refuse entry to the criminal head of state of the most powerful country in the world -- to do otherwise would be morally corrupt. The spirits of all people of conscience cry out for your beacon of light.

Besides, if you don't help us out with George we may have to close Myrtle Beach to Canadians!!!! Greenville, South Carolina

These People, Tompagne. Much enjoyed your comments. And that of other good US citizens here. I share your hopes as well. Good luck with your struggles against the Neocons. Hopefully we can help by, over time, defeating their allies and like-minded up here.

Though I much may sound like a raving narrow nationalist myself from time to time, I actually understand that out there in time is likely continental unity here, not much unlike the EU. And Canadians and US citizens will be unable to avoid the consequences of their shared geography. First though, we Canadians, along with our brothers and sisters of South America, must be able to feel that we are able to sit down and cut deals with your great people, as equals. Without that starting point of complete equality, what exists is something entirely different, more akin to the lamb trying to lie down with the lion.

I am convinced however, that in the end, we will work it out-, just not this side of capitalism.

Carolina Dancer, most regulars here certainly know and appreciate that many Americans live with the same fears we have this side of the border. The frightening thing is that despite the hair-width divide in numbers between pro and anti-Bush voters, that administration is hell-bound to impose it's will on the world. It gives us great encouragement to be reminded often that there are people like you in the USA, who agree with most of the world that GW Bush is the most dangerous man in the world. I can only hope that sufficient fellow Canadians, who are near or in Halifax this week make sure Bush is reminded of this. In the meantime Carolina Dancer, please insist that your Democrat politicians speak out loudly and consistantly so that other Americans will understand its ok to criticize Bush and still love your country.

The question of the relationship between Canada and the US (culturally, politically, economically, etc.) is an interesting one.

Given the disturbing trends in the US these days, I'd say that Canada is actually diverging from the US more and more, culturally. Gay marriage was a major sticking point in the US election, while Canada, on the whole, seems pretty comfortable with the idea. Then there's health care, drug policy, etc.

My guess is that Canada may end up culturally (if not politically) somewhere between the values of the European Union and the US. An interesting, if not comfortable, place to be.

Hey, Dancer from the Carolinas, have you checked out the terrific picture gallery from the Kyev, Ukraine protests on the Guardian Website? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,8542,1357673,00.html)Is that encouraging, or what?

How many Americans do you figure it would take to create a similar situation in the States. What if half your population just told your president "To Hell with this bullshit. We AREN'T cooperating!"

A government in power cannot be indicted, however, if they think US officials should be prosecuted for the Iraqi prison scandal, then surely they must be willing to lay charges against the Canadian Prime Minister and his Cabinet who were in charge when Canadians beat, tortured and killed Shidane Arone - the Canadian prisoner in Somolia?

Ok. I'm going to stir this pot a bit. If Bush didn't send the US into Iraq, what else would he have done? Iran would not have behaved any different, invasion or not invasion. I think it was a strategic invasion for the US to imprint a stronghold somewhere in the Middle East. At this juncture, the argument also plays into the control of the flow of oil. That came with the invasion. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. Would any of have rather the Chinese or East Indians or some terrorist Middle Easter person in charge of such a colossal amount of oil? I'd rather have G.W. in charge of that instead of any of those mentioned above. To be cont'd....

Except that the Iraqi conflict was supposed to be about WMDs, Chevy, not a strong MidEast Presence.

Secondly, what sort of person's head is stuck so far up their ass that they think the USA's presence in the MidEast is actually STRENGTHENED by alienating every Muslim on the planet and uniting them against the common American enemy?

Where Canada dropped the ball Canada could have gone into Iraq way before the US. They could have left Afghanistan and OBL to the US and us Canadians could have taken care of the Iraqis? How? The UN could have said, "Saddam, your country is a mess. The Canadians have a stable budget and live somewhat harmoniously with its many cultures. There are reports that you have massacred people. The Canadians will re-train your police and your military and all other emergency personnel. The Germans and the Japanese will help out with technology and so on. The Canadians could have been the grand contractors. To Be cont'd.....

Thirdly, Iraq looks like it's shaping up to be a Napoleanic or Nazi Moscow for the Americans: The longer they stay, the more people there and in the rest of the world hate them and want to kill them.

... as the war continues to suck up American men and dollars.

Canadians don't support the US presence in Iraq. The overwhelming majority of Canadians were solidly behind Chretien when he said "I'm no friend of Saddam, but where does it stop?"

Here's your exit plan, America:

Pick up and get the hell out of there. Now. You cannot salvage it.

Robert, I do believe there was a prosecution of a Canadian on that file. It was a lone soldier, who happened to be native Canadian who was made the scapegoat on that one and sent to jail, while his superiors and colleagues walked away unscathed. Funny how its always the uneducated, underprivilaged poor young underclass recruits who are going to jail for US torture crimes in Iraq. Lowest on the totem pole Americans also seem to be scapegoats too. But then, Canada didn't go into Somalia on the basis of a well-planned lie. ***Note to Chevy: More of that humorous pot stirring please. You've got some of us in stitches with your "strategic invasion" stuff. Oh BTW, you've either confused Iran for Iraq or you are talking in the future tense.

Agh, you got me. I truly had you pegged as some Neocon racist idiot. Allan's right. The whole "strategic invasion" stuff is hilarious in THAT light.

Mad fox, my head isn't in my ass. I'm trying to construct a logical and cogent argument. Now, the WMD's were the reason. I bought it. Why? Because the US sold it to the Iraqis way back. So they know something is there. This is where everything got screwed up. The UN, it its grandeur, seeing that the US was going in regardless, should have put its foot down and send someone in but in a different context or mandate. Ok? So as Canada as the great contractor, Iraq keeps the oil, its sovereignty and Saddam gets a dignified way out. No war, stable gas prices and an excellent demonstration of Canadian diplomatic skills. And this easily could have been a scenario. Why? Because we do not bow to the US and this would have been a great chip in bargaining for future considerations. And, When the Iranians start bitching at us to keep out of their business concerning Ms. Kazemi, well, it is our business because she was a Canadian citizen and had we more respect in the Middle East, we wouldn't be getting spat at by the friggin Iranians. Thank you.

And on any given day, regardless of money, I would rather have G.W. in charge of the oil in Iraq rather than the Chinese or East Indians or the Russians or the filthy French. Thank you.

Ok by this American. You could keep him if you want. It would save us from having to move to Canada...

Gawd, you are a scream, Chevy. The Onion should put you on its editorial board.

Wow, To borrow from a popular phrase: "God Bless....Paranoid Marxists" I'm always amazed by people’s views of human nature and ideological motivations. * "My central point being, that where the "advanced capitalist" world is at right now, is likely a whole hell of a lot nearer the end of capitalism than anyone, certainly any "revolutionary" has thought, since old Karl baby." * By "advanced Capitalist world" I suppose you’re referring to "post-industrial economies" and by saying "where they are now" you are implying that where they are now is a morally repugnant place because you claim we are closer to “the end of capitalism” than anyone has predicted. Well lets consider this for a moment. I too am a student of Marx. It is impossible to get a university education in this province without spending a period of your life as a Marxist but further, I've lived in the former Soviet Union and have a little first hand experience with the socio-economic position that part of the world faces. Marx claimed that Capitalism would eventually so corrupt the “Capitalists” that there would be a revolution of the workers, overthrowing the Capitalists, ushering in the Utopian society where everyone did an even amount of work and was valued the same. OK, now, I’m no genius but there are some substantially, MONUMENTALLY, large leaps of faith one has to make to believe this could ever be possible. In my opinion, Ayn Rand made the most compelling argument in her book, Atlas Shrugged, for why Marxist-Communism will never work. It boils down to the fact that the vast majority of people do not possess the talents that are required to make a technologically advanced society function. In its simplest interpretation, the Utopian dream was that everyone in the society would be motivated to do their best work simply because everyone would be valued evenly and all work would be measured evenly. To say that a person who applies dry wall for a living puts in work that is of equal value to a Radiologist for example, who goes to university for about twelve years to gain the skills of their trade is ridiculous and leads one ultimately to the acceptance that they deserve greater compensation for their work...and I've installed a fair bit of dry-wall. This philosophy and Communism can never co-exist. Sure both people work hard and deserve compensation and recognition for their work but by saying that their output is of equal value is simply not true. Either human values or the society we wish to propagate will have to change before this can ever happen. There will always be “classes” of people, you can change the form of compensation but the nature of the system doesn’t change and that in a nutshell is why the great Soviet experiment failed. A class system evolved in a system where this was supposed to not be possible. Very simplisticaly stated, the Communist Party members sat at the top of the system and then there were local party apparatchiks that held a rank below the big party officials but above the average worker and then even in the workplace, it broke down further. In a factory, when one guy did more work than the next, he’d be named a “Hero of the Workers or something or other”, given a medal an extra bread or vodka ration and by default was advanced to a higher class than the next worker. The system failed to motivate humans and broke down because of that. Of course I’m not even going to dare calling the Soviet experience Marxism. It started out as Leninism anyways and as you pointed out, never followed a Marxist path. On a fundamental level trade is a necessity because not all regions of the globe can create the same products. Oh and by the way…why do we continue to propagate the myth that Canada is the hewer of lumber and hauler of water for the United States? Because we sell timber??? The largest portion of Canadian economic activity with the United States is industrial manufacturing, specifically autos and auto parts. More harm than good is done by making that statement. Anyways, we probably sell more timber these days to China but moving on. What we are looking at in this period of history is a situation that can more appropriately be likened to the circumstances that led to the French Revolution. A period when the ruling class had become so corrupt and hoarded so much wealth and power that the under-classes revolted against the status-quo. Sounds a lot like the current situation in most Post-industrial economies. Ironically, Thomas Jefferson supposedly once said that a little revolution now and again is good for a society…or something along those lines. Evolution of the Capitalist system is inevitable and the system will evolve from the Industrial/Post-industrial era into something new but be sure that Capitalism and Liberal Democracy are the most comfortable systems humans have yet devised. But this rant doesn't really belong in a forum about how warm a welcome the President of the United States should recieve upon entering Canada.

Well Coyote, at least you've figured how to get spaces into your texts, I still haven't figured that one out.

New Guy, your last sentence is the only one that makes any sense, other than your confesson that you think Ayn Rand is worth reading. That darling of fascists privilage never succeeded beyond the fairy tales like Atlas Shrugged. Citing her as an authority on truth is like giving a used-car salesman your money before you sign the purchase agreement. It makes you look extremely dated and certainly incapable of rational thought.

New Guy: To make a paragraph break at end of sentence type in: "

" without the quotation marks.

I"ll try again: At end of sentence to make a paragraph break, type in the "less than sign" followed by the letter p followed by the "greater than sign".

mad fox? Which Onion? I am just learning how to use a computer and the internet so let me know where to go to profess my sophisticated views. Thank you.

After reading all that, I just have to comment. Canadians better hope that war criminal George Bush is arrested when he crosses the border because it is our last chance. While he is here, he is going to sign an agreement with the lapdog who replaced Chretian that will militarily annex Canada (and Mexico) to the US. ( See Michel Chossodovsky Is the Annexation of Canada part of Bush's Military Agenda? http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411C.html ) What are you going to do in the coming war?

Thanks for the paragraph info

Allan perhaps you should re-read my (admitadly too long) post - "In my opinion, Ayn Rand made the most compelling argument in her book, Atlas Shrugged, for why Marxist-Communism will never work. It boils down to the fact that the vast majority of people do not possess the talents that are required to make a technologically advanced society function.

- I did not cite Rand as an "authority to truth" in fact I'm aware of her criticsm. I also did not say that Rand was worth reading. Have you never read something purely to try and understand how others think? I simply said that she provided what I believe to be a very realistic description of human behavior.

Further, if you think that the fact that I've read Rand dates me then, wholy cow I must really be dated since I've also read from the Tora, the Bible and the Quran. Age = Bad?????? I'm not sure about that. Man, History that must really be useless stuff.

The Chinese will soon control the oil in Iraq by virtue of their current ownership over the American debt, without having to sacrifice a single citizen -- and they will look like heroes to the rest of the MidEast. Bravo Bush-league!

New guy, you are certainly painting a fairly good picture of yourself, at least based on your reading material. History, you call it? Well, I'm sorry New guy, but if I were to seek out a few accurate tidbits of history it certainly wouldn't be from the three books you cite. Right now I'm about 70 percent through Will and Ariel Durant's 11-volume 'The Story of Civilization," so, as you can see, I do appreciate history, which is really important stuff from my perspective, and certainly a little more reliable then the competing 'holy' books you mention. But back to Ayn, most of whose books I managed to get through some 30 years ago when I still had the patience to. I can appreciate why budding capitalists or others who fear the bogeymen of socialism, communism or anything else not based on greed, would flock to Rand. But please, to be quoting or citing her seems further out there than your readings of the bible et/al. "The majority of people don't possess the talents that are required to make a technologically advanced society function," you offer in an effort to sell Ayn as being wise. I'd call it arrogant and not just your cornerstore variety of arrogance, but that special brand that comes wrapped in ignorance and a hate for anyone or anything not familiar. Ayn Rand was a bitter woman who just couldn't get over the fact she and her family, who were essentially rich leaches in Europe, had to flee from the great unwashed who wanted to be free of such people. She wouldn't have known what the majority of people had the talent for any more than she understood the misery inflicted on the peasants of Europe until her kind were sent packing. She wrote radical fiction, in a somewhat pathetic effort to justify her family's treatment of the poor and powerless before the poor shrugged off their chains and chased the leaches out. I do, however, think your statement about Thomas Jefferson is bang on.

We are so, so sorry that Bush was able to heist the election yet again. I helped carry Michigan, but that wasn't enough. There was just too much money at stake for a clean election.

Welcome New Guy (and all you Americans- how did you hear about the good ol' Tyee?) I'm way ahead of you on the tv thing, NG- Haven't owned one in 6 years and doubt I ever will again. But I still don't have an answer on the eggnog lattes...

moltar, we're sorry as hell for you guys too. Ordinary taxpaying Americans will be left with the bill when it comes in for this crusade, and I expect Haliburton et al will close down their branch offices in the States to avoid retroactive damages brought against them. That's why it's so important to have a strong world court.

Fi: Soy Nice has a great "Noel Nog" (made of organic soy beans) found in the refridgerated section of your preferred health food grocer with which a good-for you latte could easily be assembled. The bonus - its a Canadian company - of which there are quite a few that are into the soy thing (lucky for us vegetarians - even Yves Veggie cuisine was a Canadian brainchild that McD's managaed to assault by frying in animal fat... those americans....).

I think the Chevy failed air care. I was too overcome with tearing eyes and coughing spasms from its toxic fumes to actually find any humour and laugh at the rattling comments.

Allan. There is no way to alter this conversation other than for me to say 'bon au revoir'.

Allan - No actualy, instead I'll say this. Rand may have been, in fact probably was a very bad choice for a citation. Truth be told, I'm not afraid of a socialist bogeyman. In fact I'm a raging Socialist, albeit a VERY disilusioned one. I have lived in a post-communist country and seen some of the results of the distortion of Marx's ideology. I am well aware of the corruption that abounds in our political and economic system. I would love to see meaningful change. On the other hand I've experienced the remnants of humanity's only manifestation of Marx's system and it left a little to be desired. I understand that it was not the Utopian dream. I appologize for offending you with my comment about the functioning of advanced industrial societies. In fact, I actualy value everyone's contribution evenly, believe me, I'm in no position to criticize. What I was trying to say was that different people have different strenghts. While I value each individual's personal strength evenly, I do believe that some people have propensities for certain skills. Our medical system for example requires extremely skilled practioners. I suppose I have not entirely rectified in my mind whether they deserve greater compensation because of more time spent garnering the skills required for their position, or not. Putting this aside, (as I'm sure you're aware) modern industrial societies cannot function without these trained people. So the way I see it one of two things has to change (correct me if you think I'm wrong) either there is fundamental change in what motivates humans to engage in all of that training, i.e. we all accept each other's work, regardless of what it is as equal, to stick with my medical example, work done on a house in return for MRI's (as a very rough example) or the structure of our society has to simplify so that no one does a task that requires more preparation than the next person. (maybe I'm totally wrong?)

Regardless, the division of wealth that currently characterizes humanity is, frankly, horrifying and I believe will one day lead to a redistribution, be it violent or otherwise. In any case I think the environment will probably lash out and kill us all anyways.

Ironicaly, I too am reading the Durants' volumes, I'm only on the second volume...Greece but I do not dismiss the Judeo-Christian texts. Although their teachings are not my cup ot tea I do not dismiss them entirely. I try very hard to never to be ignorant or arrogant and offer this reflection as evidence. I consider myself standing corrected and appologize for all these long rants that don't really pertain to the forum's topic, it won't happen again.

New Guy, I'm delighted you too are working your way through Durant's life work. It's a long read, but (and here's the value of history), offers so many parallels to later, current and, no doubt, future events that it makes you wonder if politicians ever look back before rushing headlong into the frey. You needn't apologize for ranting in this forum. While I might not have appreciated your choice of social commentators (Rand), or her views, they are as pertinent to this forum as others. As far as the bible, koran, etc., if they help some people live good lives, as they no doubt do, great, but much of the ugly bagage we as a species continue to carry about, is firmly ensconced in those teaching. You certainly are right that society must soon change from its personal acquisitive rewards system to a more sustainable cooperative model if we are to survive as a species. And yes, the environment, like a big, angry loan shark holding an onerous IOU that's overdue, is already kicking up a fuss. We certainly won't rid ourselves of this wasteful and eventually deadly system without a struggle, but change we must. We have the technology, the smarts and the ability to make changes that can turn the tide toward a more equitable and sustainable world, but it's tough getting people to pay attention when they are endoctrinated before school age into the consumers' dance ritual that shakes to the rythem of "more, more and more".

Tue 30 November, 2004

BERLIN (Reuters) - Lawyers acting for a U.S. advocacy group will today file war crimes charges in Germany against senior U.S. administration officials for their alleged role in torture at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Those to be named in the case to be filed at Germany's Federal Prosecutors Office include Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld, former Central Intelligence Agency chief George Tenet and eight other officials.

Shirin, All my vehicles exceed Aircare standards and are always kept in good working order. The same goes with me. Bush had the fortitude to try and do something that nobody else would have save for maybe the Chinese later on in the future. What Bush did is a positive thing for North American civilization. Wait till the Chinese start cranking up their prices on their toasters and TV sets and to then ratchet up the prices to machinery which we would use to manufacture goods, then we'll see who cries. As far as I'm concerned, we're better off with a North American foothold in the Middle East where previously there was none. Don't cry over this though. You remind me of one of those people who openly patronate the Da Kine and when it got closed down, you bitched, moaned and whined because you can't get your supply of weed for that day. I'm new to this forum. If you want to make some personal attacks, go ahead. But trust me, I know better and will not let things escalate. Now go smoke your joint and write me a response. I eagerly await it. Bush rocks, 'nuff said!

Yeah shirin. Go smoke a joint, and let Chevy suck on his tailpipe in piece.

Er, that is 'peace'. You made me so mad ooooooooooooh! Now I'm going to have to go and chew some shoes and blame you for it, being the republican example of war-dog that I am.

Chevy, you'll get used to the personal attacks :) Bush does not rock, he is a fool. He has a dog so I can't entirely hate a man who has a dog- and besides, he does make me chuckle, but really,...

As far as "the Chinese cranking up their prices on their toasters and tv sets" - THAT would be a good thing for North American "civilization", because then maybe we could stop buying such useless junk; although my guess is the prices would have to go pretty high and like zombies, most people would just work more to afford more 'cause "more more more" is what it is all about (as Allan points out). Geesh...

Ok Ok, I got it. Bush doesn't rock. I know. But Kerry was no better and people aren't far-sighted enough to look at the benefits of Ralph Nader. So who do you pick? Bush? The free-trade, tough talking, crazy-man? or Kerry - protectionist, isolationist, ex war vet? Who do you pick? In this realm, Bush is the better of the two and Kerry did want Saddam out and did vote to got to the war. As for making Fluffy mad, sorry. As for the Chinese cranking up prices? Its over. The entire world economy goes into the tank. Every manufacturing giant in North America and Europe has a branch plant somewhere in China. So, who's better? At least Bush says what he's going to do, like it or not, not like Kerry who said one thing, did another, then talked a whole different story about what he said then did. Thank you

I say we should roust ourselves some American soldiers, call them 'illegal combatants', stick 'em in a cage out on Raging Granny Island without charging them, then degrade them in all violation of the Geneva Convention -- like making them eat supersized McDonalds day after day after day ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1363573,00.html

Good god, did this get Freeped or something? Where did all these idiots come from?

How do we persuade our Attorney-General to lay charges?

Seems someone imagined how this news story might be written: http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_14050 .shtml Unfortunately for Google News, it thought the satire was real: http://battellemedia.com/archives/001085.php

billy pilgrim, 11/26/2004 1:20:09 PM, writes: "i'm pretty sure bush has a real good lawyer and would be able beat any charges. he would probably countersue and canada would have to give him vancouver island." ---- Best! one of the bunch Billy, but let's give him the Charlotte's instead.

I was utterly gleeful that Vancouver Bush protesters made the Jon Stewart's comedy show - where the scene with Bush's statue being carried away (in memo of the fallen Saddam statue the Americans took down in Iraq). I'm glad it was shown to Stewart's anti-bush audience rather than that tucker the trucker's audience in which gutsy Perrish made an appearance under attack with republican WMD for her attack on the bush voodoo doll - they would have shed more friendly fire our way I'm sure.

Paul Martin says he wants reassurances from the US that the missile defence system won't be used to militarize space. Earth to Martin: Haven't you learned anything these past four years? Why would you look for reassurances from liars?

"I'm so angry. I hear you Canadians want to arrest our president for war-crimes."

Yours truly takes a nervous glance around for shotguns at the ready.

"So why d'ja go and let him off?"

FROM:JOHN GEZI EMAIL:johngezi_@hotmail.com Hello, A PLEA FOR ASSISTANCE My name is Mr JOHN GEZI the elder son of Mr. ANTHONY GEZI,of Zimbabwe. It might be a surprise to you where I got your contact address, I got it from South African information bureau. During the current crises against the farmers of Zimbabwe by the supporters of our President Robert Mugabe to claim all the white owned farms in our country, he ordered all the white farmers to surrender their farms to his party members and their followers. My father was one of the best farmers in the country and knowing that he did not support the presidents political ideology, the presidents supporters invaded my fathers farm burnt down everything, shot him and as a result of the wounds sustained, he became sick and died after two days. And after his death, I with my younger Brother decided to move out of Zimbabwe for the safety of our lives to South-Africa. BUT, before he died HE WROTE HIS WILL, which reads "(MY BELOVEED SON ,I WISH TO DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE SUM OF ($25,000,000=00). TWETY FIVE MILLION U.S DOLLARS WHICH I DEPOSITED IN A BOX WITH A SECURITY COMPANY IN JOHANNESBURG (SOUTH-AFRICA). IN CASE OF MY ABSENCE ON EARTH CAUSED BY DEATH ONLY". You should solicit for reliable foreign partner to assist you to transfer this money out of South Africa for investment purpose. I deposited the money in your name and it can be claimed by you alone with the deposit code. Your mother has all the documents. Take good care of your mother and brother.I will be very grateful if you can assist us. I with my younger brother are now living in South-Africa as POLITICAL ASYLUM SEEKERS and the financial law of SOUTH-AFRICA does not allow ASYLUM SEEKERS certain financial rights to take out of south africa such huge amount of money .In view of this, I cannot invest this money in South-Africa, hence I am asking you to assist me transfer this money out of South-Africa for investment purposes. For your efforts, I am prepared to offer you 15% of the total fund, While 5% will be set used to refund for local and international expenses and 80% will be kept for me and my family . Finally modalities on how the transfer will be done will be conveyed to you once we establish trust and confidence between ourselves. Looking forward to your urgent reply .For detailed information. NOTE: THE KEY WORD TO THIS TRANSACTION IS ABSOLUTE CONFIDENTIALITY AND SECRECY. THIS TRANSACTION IS 100% RISK FREE. YOUR URGENT RESPONSE WILL BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED. BEST REGARDS, JOHN GEZI (FOR THE FAMILY).

one shot triangle ulated would do the trick get your weapons ready this is a quote from ny from 2years ago remember when a small group of men conspired to kill hitler the only reason they failed was because of lack of fire power