Christy Clark is (was) a social liberal?!?!? Sure and Joseph Stalin was a champion of the people. Don't forget she was the minister who was responsible for all of the education cuts and the forced contract with the teachers unions, I don't see how that makes her a socialist in any shape or form.

Nothing new about Kevin Falcon however, those who watch Voice Of BC would have seen KF proudly state that Ronald Reagan is one of his heroes!

What has happened to the state of politics, everyone is right, even the NDP fall somewhere just right of centre. Someday Dickens will become popular again and we'll throw out the lot of these thieving criminals who are too busy bending over for the corporations.

And just out of spite I hope that Christy Clarks son either becomes a communist or can't afford to go to university.

Tension exists within all larger political parties. The NDP has them, the Socreds had them and so do the BC Liberals. I know people do not want to believe this, but the BC Liberals are much more Federal Liberal than Federal Conservative. Yes, some of the cabinet members are social conservatives, but they remain the minority. Policy wise, the government in BC and the Government in Ottawa are very similar. Liberal parties are not leftist parties, but centre right parties - exactly what we have here in BC. The BC Liberal party will remain a cohesive coalition into the next election. The question comes in the run up to 2009 if we have a new electoral system? I suspect the social conservatives will strike out on their own as a seperate party and take their 15-20% of the vote and some 5 to 15 seats, depending on electoral system.

"But none of the socially-liberal Liberals are saying this publicly. Instead, they are just going away quietly, saying that they've decided not to run in the next election." writes Barbara.

With similar thinking quietly happening within all parties actually, including the NDP. (The Greens I'm less certain about.)

That said, I'm not convinced that the deterioration of politics, political loyalties, and voter participation, seeming inevitable as it is anyway, is going to prove a bad thing over the long pull of history. What "is" must likely be turned away from and lose its loyal following, even passively, before the way can be cleared to allow "alternatives" to seriously contest and enter the picture.

Which may not be what is happening yet here, I concede. Only time will tell us that.

I would also have thought that, by now, all serious small "l" liberal's would be sidelined, in the rump group left behind by Wilson and Tyabje, or in the NDP anyway.

Nonetheless, regardless of what is evolving here in the broader political picture, Christy's departure, which has a number of suspicious elements to it, in the suddeness of it and the way it was dropped on Gordo, in a phone call while he was away at the Premier's conference with Martin, is hopefully the early warning of a great unravelling "within" the neocon-Libs.

I won't run to the bank with it just yet though.

I will say it again thowever; the strength of the winds of change within politics generally, throughout capitalism everywhere, is showing signs of beginning to blow again.(There was even talk on German TV a few days ago, about the possibility that the regions of the old DDR/East Germany just may vote for the Communists in the next German Federal election. Wouldn't that be strange?)

One can dream anything though.

More likely, it is going to get worse before it gets better. That being the instinctive pessimism of an old leftie whose been down this road more times than he cares to recollect.

Still, there is a difference out there-, in the widespread "non-participation". About which there may be a tendency to "underestimate" the importance of.

A good and timely article. Yes, there may be disaffection within the ranks of the more supposedly "liberal" members of the bc neodickensian party. But good people, DECENT people, when the poor and the disabled, when inner city school children are attacked and assaulted, to pay for "the taxcuts that were going to jumpstart the economy and leave more money for social programs..." DECENT people CROSS the floor of the legislature or resign. That protest from so-called progressive liberals has been so pathetic and WEAK, leads me to suggest once again that bc liberal mlas were either forced to sign some kind of loyalty oath by martyn brown, or that, at the very LEAST, they were threatened with legal action for speaking out.

That said, did bc liberal mlas really expect anything else from a "man" who hijacked the bc liberal party with a massive phone call phone in takeover, a tactic not unlike the ballot box stuffing at nomination meetings both the federal and provincial wings of the party are so addicted to? Why not just change the name of the party to the bc liars, -it's really the only thing the party is known for besides backstabbing and seling your kids out to their friends for a nickle on the dollar. And yes, if these scum are reelected you will see a hidden agenda even more horrific than their last with both hydro and icbc gone forever (the victoria colonist says the bc liars are already shopping for a company like accenture to take over book keeping and payroll at icbc) and an assault on the poor and disabled that will undoubtedly ruin the lives of thousands more vulnerable people all in return for another clawed back "tax cut." David Shreck's column of today proves bc is still second last in real economic growth.

I suggest that tyee readers and posters begin responding to the "Sound Off" feature in the ONLINE editions of the vancouver sun, the province and the colonist. You do NOT have to be a paid subscriber to do this, and it is definitely an effective way of infiltrating all three papers with something besides bc liar propaganda...

Clearly the solution is for Gordon Wilson to take over the leadership of the now-moribund Social Credit Party...

I agree Lewis. It would be like a form of culture jamming if we starting infiltrating the canada.com sound offs. Unfortunately, they have editors that don't believe in free speach so you have to be careful what you say/type. If had quite a battle with them once: i responsed to a few posters who made outright rascist remarks. the editors changed my post which altered my meaning. I quickly did another post demanding that the editors remove my comment and blasted them for changing my post. Anyway, an eamil battle ensued. they claim that they are not editors and that i was not sticking to the subject; therefore, my comments were change. Long story longer, good idea lewis, let's do it.

Maybe Glen Clark was on a secret mission for the socialist party of BC when he was inadvertently smoked out of the fox's hole with that trademark shit-eating grin of his, eh? Perhaps he's got da dope on dem BC Libservatives now, eh? Ah, you gotta love the direction this Titanic province is takin, no? Mates, me see an ice-berg on the horizon, ETA to impact: May 2005. Unless, of course, Carole can pry the dope from Glen's greedy little hands.

There is more than a whiff of covert Machiavellianism in the mind set and world view of the socially conservative fundagelical movement in North America. They have a stealth, radar deflecting quality to them that has taken them decades to perfect.

I'm not in the least surprised to read this Barbara.

"I'm not in the least surprised to read this Barbara." said dana. ditto here. we have been hearing rumblings in the party for some time now. in fact it all started when gordo stole the party from Wilson. we`ve all forgoten how the sun and gordo crucified Gordon Wilson and Tyabje for their affair which allowed gordo to take over the party compleatly. the pathetic media in B.C. not once has questioned gordo`s ethics, not once. he has lied as we all know on numerous occasions including his druckin maui shame, broken election promises etc. why hav`nt the "true" liberals come out against their leader? because they are a bunch of gutless cowards whom are happy to dwell in the back benches as long as they collect their saleries and build their pensions. we cannot wait for them to get some balls and call gordo to task. they will not. some have left the party and others will follow. but they will not talk. why? that remains to be seen. in the mean time B.C. needs to get out and vote and get rid of some of the gutless wonders in victoria.

Bernard - "Similar to the Federal Liberals?" I hardly think so. This sounds much like what we heard from Campbell's so called Liberals prior to the 2001 election - the most open and transparent government ever. Really just a ploy to suck in the huge voting block in the middle. Look for much of the same as we approach the next election. What we have now is the most neoconservative government in this countrie's history.

I hate to be contrairy, but I think the article is a rather poor excuse for an editorial. Not one attributable source in the whole piece. This off-the-record muckracking has gotten out of hand in recent years, would-be journalists stirring up controversy where little is to be had. The fact is, it's in the best interest of opponents of the BC Liberals to paint such dark pictures of an ideological putsch in Victoria. All the recent policy announcements point to a move in the opposite direction, challenging the NDP for the expansive mushy middle. But never mind: some eminently forgetable backbenchers have some axes to grind. Off the record.

"I'm not in the least surprised to read this Barbara."

Here as well, Dana. No more surprised than I was when Dosanjh et al went over to the "confederal" Liberals. There has been a move to "the right" all along the political spectrum, from centre left.

It parallels the movement of people away from "participation" in politics generally, within the country and across the global capitalist system. It's all part of the character of what is happening within this broader/international social order.

It is. It's truly interesting times. (With only that certain quasi-fascist drift which the rise of the neocons bring with them, being the truly disturbing/ dangerous element in the piece. It warrents our awareness.)

Matt, how attributable are you willing to be when what you might want to speak up about could cost you not only your job but your reputation as well.

There have so far been 2 members of the BC Liberal caucus who have spoken out. Both have been completely ostracized and had their characters viciously and relentlessly attacked. The lesson is not lost.

Those who speak out in their own names will be sacrificed. So they try and do it other ways.

One could just as well have asked "How much is left of the Left within the NDP"...and the answer, given the apparent control of the provincial NDP by "big labor elites"..is that not much is Left. The BC NDP is visibly a "Blarite" -don't rock the boat - business almost as usual - lets put a human face on capitalism party. Does that imply that those on the Left who don't agree with the Blarite approach should abandon the NDP, or not vote at all, or should they start a genuine Left political movement , or should they identify others on the Left and attempt to create a larger space within the BC NDP for the Left to assume positions of power in opposition to the Blarites? What do others think? Is the NDP a winner or a loser in the next election...check out the poll at bcpolitics.ca ...and add your vote!

I don't think people who don't use their full real names on a web site sounding board have any reason to believe that an article without direct quotes has no factual basis behind it. The fact that they don't want to go on the record against their boss seems pretty realistic to me, and its not as if Barbara is an 18 year old cub reporter who just arrived here from Moncton. As far as the BC Liberals being like federal Liberals. Well, I can believe that too. Hasn't anyone noticed the party of PE Trudeau is being run by a world bank - shipping magnate type?

I for one would appreciate the honesty were Campbell's "Liberals" to officially change their name to the BC Conservatives. Let's ask Mary Polak for her opinion.

Sorry, I don't buy the alibis of these suddenly disenchanted "social liberals." There is not a social liberal among them. They lost control of the party because they were all at the party (save two of them). This was a party where every one wore the party hats and never took them off, not for a moment. They all voted for almost every piece of legislation that went through, they all followed Campbell like lemmings, they hardly uttered a word in the legislature about their constituents concerns and yet they all gladly accepted their handsome pay for representing the people. As the clock closes on midnight they still refuse to acknowledge the real damage their government has wrought in this province and the important part they, themselves, played in it.

Really, political labels mean nothing, they are a mask. They are words not actions. And in this case "social liberalism" is a disguise against the truth - a truth those suddenly disenchanted MLA's are afraid to face about themselves. At the end of a mandate that has brought such losses and such pain to so many , how comforting is the denial, how convenient is the memory, and how large is the failure of this cowardly lot.

I suppose you could call those dumb clucks chicken.

I wouldn't mind if the NDP was a little more Blairite, referring of course to when Blair was a rock star, pre-WMD. Like any other party, the NDP could only benefit from a charismatic frontperson. I have only the vaguest impression of Carole James. Um...dark hair.

"The BC NDP is visibly a "Blarite" -don't rock the boat - business almost as usual - lets put a human face on capitalism party." wrote Peter Dimitrov

You and I clearly carry reasonable facsimile views, my friend. We must find a way to share email addresses, without opening our mailboxes to every right wingnut out there.

All the questions, reluctance and ambibalences you have towards the NDP, as it has and is evolving, while not yet being totally ready or seeing the usefulness of completely writing it off, for ourselves or others, is likewise a shared element. Pleased to make your acquaintance. Shared commonalities are always pleasant to come across in other folks.

I agree with Lynn, these MLA's are paid better than most and exist to serve the people. If they can't, or couldn't, stand up and speak out against a neo-con agenda, then quit. Along with the huge pay and ridiculous expense accounts comes huge responsibility.

Beautifully said, lynn.

Indeed, it's the new reality. Denial, memory loss and failure have become far too commonplace in Canada’s parliaments. Gordon Gamble & Co. are held to the light as Canada’s most recent example. That said, I don't think Gordon Gamble gives a fying fluck who's coming and going. Remember, his party, the BC Liberals, is an amalgam of Canadian Alliance supporters and former members of the BC Socred party. The original Liberal party members took a reduced role when Gordon Gamble wormed his way into the top job. All in all, it was a brilliant PR job on the BC public. Gordo took the Liberal name, but not the platform. I think it’s important to also remember that Gordon Gamble’s objective is to win the next election, even in his tentative position as leader. And considering the ideological structure of the party, scary Mary Polak’s a good fit. This little drone will be the perfect submissive. She’ll win Surrey-Panorama Ridge and be a good little girl. She’ll listen; she’ll toe the line—she IS that smart. While her political slant seems anomalous to us, she fits well into the Liberal_big_tent. Would that there were more like her, eh Gordo?

And yet, there are; they come in the form of a young social conservative. Consider Kevin Falcon, Rich Coleman, Graham Bruce, David Emerson, Colin Hansen...these guys’ll get elected, then go after Gordo so as to maintain the hold on the average man’s throat. It's building up to election time and Gordo's still got his hands on the levers of power. All social-conservatives are allowed in—they’ll listen, they’ll deny and you can be sure they’ll forget.

All aboard.

"Sorry, I don't buy the alibis of these suddenly disenchanted "social liberals." wrote Lynn, in another very good piece.

As I said early in this thread myself; I would have thought any really serious small "l" liberals, of any real principles at all, would by now be long gone from this Neoconsevative Party masked as "Liberal".

But especially astute is, in my view, your observation that, "Really, political labels mean nothing, they are a mask. They are words not actions. And in this case "social liberalism" is a disguise against the truth..." Which carries the attached, if unspoken cautionary warning, be careful about judging people by the labels they attach to themselves, for good or ill. And that holds pretty much across the political spectrum. People's actions are the most concrete indicator of who and what they really are.

You have obviously spent some considerable time developing your political views, woman. They are finely honed.

This article makes too convenient a book-end to the one about Glen Clark's legacy to the NDP. Good quotes, good logic, but the whole thing is just too convenient and comes across as simply a balancing act. Oh, certainly, it makes me feel a little better when I read that politicians who have said nothing in four years are starting to privately mouth fears most of us have spewed on about since they were elected. But unattributed quotes are at best flags in the wind. These so-called social-liberals may be voicing their honest opinions to the reporter, but their ability to just sit there and do nothing over the past four years speaks far louder than their now timid off-the-record sniveling. The only ways any of them might redeem themselves in my eyes would be to cross the floor or stand up and call themselves independants and then state openly why they are taking such steps. While certainly not an expert on children, I have parented for a quarter of a century and I know a sane parent would not start focusing on her child three years after his birth. No, I am not opposed to child care. But I would think any parent would understand the focus should be there before the child enters those terrible twos. Ms. Clark may have every right to feel she didn't get enough respect from Gordo (welcome to our world), and thus resigned in a snit. But to put the onus on her little son, when her husband's backroom political dealings appear to be near the centre of other embarrassing scandals makes me wonder how anyone could suggest this woman has an once of progressive blood in her genes.

Some posters here have argued that there are no small-l liberal values espoused by this "Liberal" Party. I for one don't care what political category their values fall under; the fact remains that we have not yet seen an open attack on women's right to choose, sex education in schools, freedom to marry, etc.

I think the author's main point -- that the departure of certain individuals from caucus makes that attack much more likely -- is being obscured by attempts to pigeonhole the bastards as uniformly neo-con...

test

If anything the BC "Liberals" have been consistent in their silence. I can remember back to the Coquihalla fiasco. At the town hall meeting in Kelowna, their wasn`t one of the local BC "Liberals" present. The only MLA there was Joy MacPhail who did receive a standing ovation for her efforts to oppose the BC "Liberals". I can remember watching city councillor Ron Caan`s uncomfortable look as he decided to stand up and join the crowd. Point is, this bunch of imposters has only represented the interests of the BC "Liberals" or Gordo himself, not their constituents. The BC "Liberals" have been in BC before, under the name "Social Credit", Reform BC, and it is amazing that the people continue to support this bunch to the degree that still shows up in the polls.

Here's some stuff on divisions within the federal NDP. The full reprort is at www.members.shaw/nspector4 Animal activists are targeting the Mounties’ furry hats and an NDP faction is targeting Jack Layton’s pro-Israel policies. (Here’s Layton’s reply, and here’s the original letter.)

Here's some stuff on divisions within the federal NDP. "Animal activists are targeting the Mounties’ furry hats and an NDP faction is targeting Jack Layton’s pro-Israel policies. (Here’s Layton’s reply, and here’s the original letter." The full report is at www.members.shaw.ca/nspector4

Geez, Spector repeats himself pointlessly online too.

Mr Spector, with all due respect, tell me a single group who all sing from the same page when it comes to Israel and Palestine. I bet you couldn't get all the individuals on a small rugby team to agree. The NDP is not monolitic... The NDP is not monolithic...

Is anyone going to Media Democracy day at the Vancouver public library? Actually it's two days- Fri Oct 1st and Sat Oct 2nd... I think it would be interesting to meet some of you people...

spector you are off topic here pal and I suspect you are fishing for hits on your web page, not interested!

I hope that your not the real Norman Spector, I did have a little respect for your opinions but all will be lost if your shamelessly self-promoting your website on this message board.

Moe could whip your sorry ass anytime, in any case.

Oh yeah if you are the real Norman Spector I must say that I really took offence to a somewhat populist claim you put forward on TV once. You were discussing teachers with Moe and said something along the lines of "Go ask the guys in the mills if they think the teachers have a fair contract".

I certainly can't speak for all mills or the teachers union but I will tell you that I grew up as the son of a teacher in a mill town. My mother worked incredibly hard, 12 hour days were normal even though I believe she was paid for eight. A huge portion of her "summer vacation" was spent in various courses which she paid for herself. For example she had a deaf student coming into her classroom in the fall so she took it upon herself to learn sign language over the summer and took a recognized course (paid for out of her own pocket) to become certified. Mill employees in my area were well known as being the biggest slackers around, I believe they are compensated well only because the mill jobs are so boring for the most part. There are endless stories, in the town I grew up in, about employees stealing from the mill and laughing about it and people literally sleeping on the job.

I would like to pre-emptively (got that from the debate tonite) apologize to any mill worker who is offended by what I said. I do not want to start a seperate discussion topic, my comments are directed to Norman Spector and I hope that they are only reflective of my personal experiences.

Beware of Tyee censorship!

I posted comments criticizing the tyee's technical support only to have them taken down by the site manager. I guess the truth is hard to swallow, hopefully the site manager doesn't have any facist political leanings.

Ssseesh, since getting canned by the NewVI, Norman Spector keeps turning up in the strangest places -- but still repeating himself, as always, and still shamelessly shilling for attention. McLintock's article is rubbish strewn with innuendo and superficial analysis. As Lynn says, where were all the social Liberals when it came to vote on Draconian legislation that tore up contracts, carved into services for disadvantaged citizens and trashed the forests? Not one of these so-called social Liberals stood up to be counted. Nice try, Barb, but I am not buying.

Fans of moe can now see him debate rafe mair with gloria macarenco hosting, generally, but not always, every thursday night at about 6:45 on cbc tv news. (Sometimes if there's hot political news emerging the panel takes place at 6:45 on another weekday night.)

So all 77 Liberal MLA's are right-wing Alliance people? I find that hard to believe. Besides, a couple did stand up and ended up as independents.

Barbara isn't calling these people some glorious movement that is going to save BC. She's just saying they exist and the Campbell Liberals may all look like they're singing from the same page but some are just mouthing the words. I don't see an agenda here.

Obviously it would be good for the province if Social Credit, err, the BC Liberals split back into Liberals and Conservatives instead of this so-called free-enterprise coalition that exists just to keep the NDP at bay.

Many interesting views above but may I suggest the following: Labels mean very little in politics today. To truly understand who has their hands on the controls of government, look no further than the BAGMEN operating in the shadows. Campbell has strings all over him that are controlled by these individuals; he is not in any position to control the government. FOLLOW THE MONEY and the motive for the recent 'decisions'/deals that have been made, suddenly take on a new perspective. In B.C.'s recent history, the small group of current BAGMEN REMAIN THE SAME regardless of the party: it is a coopertive corporate network of individuals controlling large financial vested interests for themselves. It is behind the scenes that the real action takes place and it has nothing whatsoever to do with 'party ideals'. The answers lie in who holds the strings.

Here's an essay from George Monbiot's website called "Expose the Tax Cheats."

The point is, most western governments already have some degree of proportional taxation laws in place, but there's no way for the public to moniter who's paying and who's scarpered off to the Turks and Caicos or the Principality of Andorra or some other haven for cheats.

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/09/28/expose-the-tax-cheats/

The backgrounds of many provincial Liberal MLAs would be enough to assume that they would be the small "l" type. Gordon Campbell has done a wonderful job staying clear of anything major that would get their backs up. Additionally, you can see what happens when they do step out of line. The government seems to be holding embarrassing information on all of them. Campbell is effectively keeping the small "c" and small "l" members of his party together with fear and intimidation. He openly admits swearing at members of his caucus during meetings. It appears now that those who cannot stomach it anymore are simply choosing not to run again instead of meeting his wrath. They probably feel that the NDP is the greater of two evils. It's a pity that the NDP hasn't been able to recruit some new talent. People who can be viewed as in the "centre." If you are in business, articulate, and want to make this province a better place for all, I hope you consider running for a seat in the legislature as an NDP candidate. The BC Liberals are on their way to falling apart. If they get elected again, they will no doubt start the craziness of banning books and abortion clinics. Can you imagine Mary Polak as Minister of Education? If that doesn't scare you, I don't know what will!

" It is behind the scenes that the real action takes place and it has nothing whatsoever to do with 'party ideals'. The answers lie in who holds the strings." wrote Donna. True, true, true. Again, unfortunately, a reality that exists within all political groupings, of which I am aware, across the spectrum. It's why, to my mind, an alternative model of democracy needs to evolve, even over time, outside ALL elitist dominant political movements and party structures.

I don't think for one minute it can be done all at once, but in the end, it's in the economy and the power that resides there, currently in the controlling hands of a ruling class, which trumps everything, even politics. Again, which is why it is there, that a new "popular power", based within the economy, that a beach-head needs to be established, and given the opportunity to evolve.

how did lynn stephens provide more gender balance?

Although they sound really stupid to me, the BC Liberals do not come out with the moronic retrograde statements that we hear regularly from the federal Conservative/Aliance Reformers. Nevertheless the BC Lier Liberals come out with a lot of stupid decisions and policies. All the expensive media nonsense about an economic boom, job openings, BC being such a great place to live and having clean up the "mess" left by the NDP! All of it is pure BS.

Of course there are small 'l' liberals in the BC Liberal Party, but it does not count for anything. The BC Liberals have further enriched the top 10% and left everyone else to pay more for everythign.

The only real liberals in BC are in the BC NDP. If you want to see any return to progressive policy, the only way is to vote NDP.

These disenchanted so-called "social-liberals" do not and will not affect the outcome of Campell's agenda no matter what they decide to do. They have allowed themselves to make no difference. They do what they are told. Whether they stay or leave, whether they are an ingredient in this extremely noxious right-wing soup or not, their presence makes no difference to the upholding of social and human rights and values in BC. Why not? Because when they were "actually" there, when they were "actually" ingredients in this vile political soup, they did not speak up, they did not defend, they did not have the courage of their convictions, if indeed they ever had any convictions at all. They were tested and they failed.

The evidence is all there in the legislative hansard, the debates, and their voting record of the past three years and runs off the page into the despair of our streets and rural towns.

These disenchanted liberals did it to themselves, by their silence and cowardly refusal to act. In the end, they didn't matter, they became non-entities. I can't imagine a more miserable legacy to have to live with.

we all know now that gordo is a dictator.he's out of control,his buddy martin brown puppets gordo into doing what ever martin says.the unfortunate thing is there isn't a big opposition in government to catch and spill the news to the public.not only that did anyone watch bctv news tonight and watch some minister give a apology to the dukabores wow that was a top news story,even the media is up gordo's ass.

The point here isn't whether or not dfisaffected Liberals should remain anonymous in a story; it's whether or not an ethical jornalist should write a "news" story with no attribution whatsoever. The answer is NO, except in extraordinary circumstances. This is nothing but straight agenda-pushing. As well, no editor with even a sketchy acquaintance of journalistic ethics should permit such a piece to be published--again, unless exceptional circumstances require such. This is clearly not the case here, and it is the second dicey Mary Polak piece on this site, deserved though she may be of criticism.

md, do you expect any BC Liberals to step forward and allow their names to be used as an "attribution"? With all of the garbage writing that I see each day in the Vancouver newspapers, we need the other point of view, what you call the "agenda-pushing" that happens at the Tyee. Vancouver needs the Tyee and the Georgia Straight to give an opposition.

NO BC Liberal is going to step forward and say anything. Elaine Brenzinger and Nettleton spoke up and they were harrassed right out of the Liberal caucus. They continued to be harassed after leaving the Liberal Party. This is not exactly an environment that promotes freedom of expression. I do like to read the nonsense in the Sun and Province, but I don't give a hoot for the attribution when it is the Fraser Institute or some other self-promoting "genius" like Michael Campbell.

md : I don't share the same beliefs as you do when it comes to the high standards of journalism. Are you aware of the Vancouver Sun or Province? I haven't read either in about a year but when I did the level of garbage was too much to bear. Writers like the premier's brother whose economics degree makes him an expert on everything or Trevor Lautens calling for the NDP to resign over the Vaudreuill case or people like Jon Ferry, nuff said there. I think Barbara is a far better journalist than any of them. You call it agenda-pushing, I personally don't see an agenda here at all unless its to say the BC Libs aren't so bad as being 77 Gordos.

There was a purge of small 'l' liberals from the BC Liberal Party after Gordon Wilson's leadership was highjacked by Gordon Campbell's people. Progressive and moderates who were expressing their opinions were ejected from the party before the 2001 election. Judy Tyabji's first book. Political Affairs, gives an entertaining perspective on this transition.

No guts, no glory. In the end, despite the harassment, both Brenzinger and Nettleton at least walk away with their self-respect which is much, much more than the rest of the lemming brigade. As for being thrown out of the BC Liberal caucus - I say wear the badge proudly.

Lynn, Sue Clark and Coyote -- I concur with all your comments here -- and of, course share Peter Dimitrov's concerns over the centre of the road attitude taken by the majority of NDP members. I think that stance is Wrong, Wrong, stupid Wrong and may cost the NDP the election. Yes, there are morons out there who believe that there is a magical Middle-of-the-Road to be had, but as one American sage put it, there is only a yellow line and dead amarillos in the middle of the road. You are either for Big Corporate Rule or you are for the people and the environment. There is no other choice available anymore. I, for one, am ardently nagging, harranguing, pushing, ...actually downright harassing -- those timid souls in the NDP to be better than balanced budgets (which they never got acknowledged for, anyway), but to go on and conquer poverty at its sources! I want to see dental care and foot care included in medicare. Meaningful and effective mental health treatment. Senior care earlier. I do not want a two-tiered health system, and that includes for WCB cases. I want to see free post secondary education and more condensing of the long-winded crap that passes for education from Kindergarten to grade 12. Too boring. Let's have the same excellent health and education systems as Quebec. Never mind giving tax incentives to business to induce them to do the environmental and social things they should be doing anyway [By the way, thanks for the monbiot site on tax cheaters, from whoever posted it]. Make the laws and enforce them. Get rid of corporate personhood. There's no way a corporation should have more rights than us or the environment. Even the business-revering Milton Friedman recanted his "profit is all" and other Marketplace Myths that capitalism "creates" wealth and jobs. Wealth and jobs were there long before a human evolved on the planet. Capitalism and its bullies exploit and hoard that wealth, taking "profits" from our commonwealth and our labour. The Hannibal Lector Solution: Eat the rich -- with a nice chianti. ;)

Brenzinger, Nettleton and the "unattributed sources" are the heroic characters in the battle against Gordon Campbell. If Watergate did not have deep throat, we would not have had a very interesting story. We are not talking about the Enquirer here with aliens, Elvis, ghosts and monsters.

In the context of a coming election *..., The very idea of " community " and Democracy itself is at the very core fondation of our collective mindscape* , should we ever wake up from what seems to be a dream*.. , ( nightmare for some ) * When I think of representation and in particular elections themselves, combined with how little informed is the inhabitants of whichever political jurisdiction one cares to examine.. , brings me to wondering when will we ever include within our Educational System a very important.. Politics 101 *.., - as in what it means to be a citizen in a Neighborhood , in a City , in a Province and in a Country*.. Indeed, the very nature of our role and responsibility - when it comes to our Democratic Responsibilites and duties - meaning we need to better educate our children as to what we want for all of our futures *.. And as to our Past recollections and Memories... we clearly need to make an effort to better inform ourselves..: FROM THE GROUND UP! ( What's the use of participating in Elections if we cannot grasp it's true meaning and influence on our day to day lives... ).. as in CITY POLITICS ..., as a first step , in a journey of and to National elections via , Provincial .. participation in our day to day life * ?

Am in full agreement with marysue's response, especially on getting rid of corporate personhood, which is the major "rock" on which today's unprecedented corporate power and influence is built. An excellent piece.

Sue Clark, I always enjoy reading your posts but I have to disagree that the "unattributed sources" are heroic. If we accept so little from our MLA's who are being paid to represent us we are all dead ducks. The fact is that they voted in favour of every piece of legislation that the Campbell agenda put forward and there have been dire consequences to our province and to the people of our province because of how they voted. Now at the end of a mandate, and fearful they won't be re-elected, they decide to squeak a little.

I watched the legislative debates and Lynn Stephens defend the Campbell cuts that led to the United Nations singling BC out as the only province in Canada exacting such a terrible toll on the lives of women and children. Now, suddenly she is a "social liberal", after all the damage has been done. The lady doth now protest too much and too conveniently - it might be a more flattering image for her now to assume but it is not a truthful one.

Our MLA is also not running again, he says it's because of the grandchildren. He also voted in favour of every piece of legislation. Our hospital has undergone massive cuts, our senior residence is being dismantled, our civil liberties office has closed, women's shelters were lost, schools were closed, drug and alcohol counselling gone, logging trucks rule the road and continue to log dangerously close to residential homes. For all this and more, his office has been picketed almost every day... and his response...he stood up twice in the legislature, both times to announce the birth of his grandchildren. That level of representation must never be acceptable if we are to live in a free society - people's lives literally hang in the balance as a consequence of the failure to speak up.

Really, so what if they decide to take off their party hats so late in the evening, that is not worthy of commendation. In fact, it reeks of that same self-interest. It is toooooo late... the party's over in more ways than one. As Marysue says above, pass the chianti...

My "unattributed sources" comment was a further response to MD from an earlier point within this thread. The secret information that these sources reveal can have great power to turn things around. Noone in the hospitals for example is stepping forward to say that the expensive adminstrators (such as hospital presidents) hired by the Gordon Campbell government are totally out of touch with the actual operation of the hospital. They were just hired to get rid of the HEU and now they serve little purpose. There is a really good story there. Noone is talking about how the computer workers in the hospitals received the 15% pay cut and then left and now these low paid job opening are almost impossible to fill.

Sorry Sue, there is no excuse--none--for publishing an entire article with no attribution. Comparisons to the dreck served up by the local dailies are irrelevant to the point being made. It matters not a whit what others do, and their sloppy ethics cannot be used to justify yours (so to speak). Journalistic accuracy and integrity are not served with such sloppy, unethical, and downright lazy reportage. Any such article should be regarded skeptically, at best. And anonymous sources are not heroic; they merely value money more than personal integrity. And please (although someone else made the point, I believe), no comparison with Watergate! Good God! A scandal that brought down the leader of the most powerful nation on Earth being compared to kitchen gossip from scared backbenchers, if they even exist. And the Georgia Straight, although on very rare occasions allowing single anonymous sources, never publishes entire articles with multiple hidden sources and no other attributed quotes. This should have been under an Opinion slug, not news.

No problem, MD. I am not a journalist and you are bringing up an issue that I have not really considered. Nevertheless, if information can be provided that will help to bring down the BC Liberals, I will certainly consider it heroic. You will have to explain to me why it is such sloppy ethics. It is beside the point that nothing of much substance has been leaked.

If some anonymous source did reveal that Margaret Thatcher was lying about the circumstances in that battleship that was sunk and the newspapers published it, how is that unethical?

md: You may live in a world where journalistic ethics and integrity mean every story is the culmination of weeks, months or more of hard work and all sources are footnoted, but I don't. Even big papers like the NY Times print stuff that is not checked let alone giving the source. In politics the "source close to the government" has been going on since newspapers were invented. Is it ethical? I don't have a problem with it no matter whether its the right or the left being targeted. But again, unless you happen to be the editor of a major daily I think Barbara knows her stuff better than anyone else here.

marysue : People are not divided into camps of left and right. There are 4 million different political positions in BC, not 2. That's why we have elections, sometimes people vote for someone different than they did the time before.

All of the NDP voters do not agree that its either corporate rule or the people and environment. There's lots of other issues that divide us as well. In fact, I'm sure some on the left would happily rape the environment if it meant less poverty for themselves. Many on the right might not. We already know there's lots of union members that wouldn't vote NDP for any reason. There's lots of cross-over. I doubt there's much difference between some Liberals, Alliance and NDP. They would probably agree on many things if they sat around a dinner table discussing politics. And what would divide them would not always be a constant, it would change depending on who was invited to the table.

Had McClintock waited for cowardly liberal mlas to be willing to be directly quoted, there never would have been an article at all. Posters above worried about journalistic integrety should be besieging the vancouver scum with letters and e-mails. A "newspaper" like the sun which features regular editorials by the premier's brother praising the premier's government, saturated by continual op ed pieces written by fraser institute hacks, that you have to sqint at to see the tiny byline at the end of the article; a paper that regularly publishes attack pieces on the ndp but refuses to offer any defensive rebuttals; a paper that crawls so far up the premier's ass that it needs five miles of rope to find its way out is not a paper at all but is rather merely a compound of ink and pulp, not fit for a vulture to crap on. The sun should be SUED for its lack of journalistic integrety.

Frank: No, I obviiously don't live in that world; no one does. But I work in that business, and have for many years. Just because "big papers" like the NY Times overuse anonymous sources and don't take the time to check some facts doesn't mean all journalists should do the same, or that such behaviour even approaches acceptable journalistic behaviour. It doesn't, and that's exactly why the Times and various other esteemed US papers and magazines have been so thoroughly embarrassed in recent years with plagiarism scandals and outright made-up news. You may accept this as common practice and not even care; that's your prerogative. And, no, Barbara doesn't come even close to knowing this stuff better than anyone else here. Sue: Again, using the ouster of a powerful country's head of state as a comparison with the unattributed gossip presented here is not really useful. However, if only for legal reasons, any editor worth her salt would (and this is a journalistic standard) confirm the fact with at LEAST two other sources before publishing, plus would require the reporter to supply the source's name, even if not published. I fear that one could bet large sums of money that that procedure was not followed here. And if you argue that this information is hardly of the import to require such stringent guidelines, all I can say is where do you draw the line? And what does such use do for the integrity of the publication? Unless you're publishing Frank magazine (whose former owner once confided at a social event that if even half of what he printed was true he'd be happy), your journalistic integrity is all that you have. Compromise that and you might as well print news releases from companies and politicians instead of the news. Another point is that using anonymous sources is a technique of the lazy reporter. If enough people are telling you something, it only takes a little effort to find someone willing to go on the record. Plus, unrestricted use of such techniques, along with e-mail interviews, etc., opens the gates to requests for such considerations from interview subjects who previously would not have had a problem going on the record. And, finally, although there are many other reasons I could give here but I don't want to bore everyone, when I read an article with no names I wonder about its veracity. Not to cast aspersions on Ms. McLintock's work.

Lewis: You are right, of course, except for that bit about waiting for cowardly MLAs to be willing to be named. Then don't publish the article, or write an opinion piece. There are lots of ways to get a point across without resorting to anonymous sources. As far as the Sun or Province goes, though, why waste paper or electrons rebuking them? They've been a lost cause for years, and everyone knows it, including the people who work there. On a positive note, their editors and reporters breathe out carbon dioxide, which is good for plants. Good evening.

Good response, md.

I have to clarify what I said earlier about something that is definitely not gossip. The BC Liberal government does not use any Health Economists to do cost-effectiveness studies in the hospitals and in Pharmacare. Millions of dollars are being wasted in these areas because these evaluation programs were eliminated.

The Campbell government has hospital presidents drawing extravant salaries for the job of arbitrarily squeezing money out of every service. They do not bother to communicate with the people running the system. Doctors are short of secretarial support staff, computer tech and networking staff are underpaid and are leaving.

Good afternoon md. Yes, but, you know in victoria, the times colonist was nearly as banal deballed and eviscerated as the vancouver scum...but the people there got really annoyed, developed a collective spine, phoned in massive subscription cancelations and e-mailed and phoned harrassed the lest than earstwhile editors, until they didn't know whether to squat or go blind. And now, the victoria colonist, unlike the vancouver sun, actually publishes a rebuttal by andrian dix or sean holman or their ilk, when marke milke or some other soixante-neufer of the free market gets a gilded invite from canwest to ram their neoliberal cant down our collective throats.

In the sun and province? Nary a rebuttal, unless you count less than a half dozen sometimes mediocre letters of criticism of gordon liar. Interestingly though, the "SOUND OFF," interactive feature of the sun, province and colonist (the colonist already has a much fairer letters page) are vulnerable to the virus memes of the true state of affairs in the province: ie, second last in provincial economic growth and performance, the diappearing tax cut, what is gordon scumrot's secret agenda THIS TIME and other infiltrations. It's easy to post there, even anonymously. You know md, people should be willing to put a fight and to educate that critical undecided middle, because as increasingly seems to be the case in polarized conditions, it could well be a close election.

If you compose a picture from the information in the comments above, it makes for one very intrigueing but scary as hell picure of this province. Sadly, a very true picture as well. Lewis swift describes an arrogant, biased media, md says the reporters who work there know their newspapers are a lost cause , Sue Clark reveals a health administation system that has become totally out of touch with the workings of their hospitals due to the discarding of much of the evaluation and accountability practices. No doubt, Sue, these same kind of concerns are happening in our schools, senior residences etc. Everywhere, it seems, there remains a grand fearful hush with whispers of rage but apparently not enough, not yet, to overcome the frozen apathy.

If we remain as this company of silent men and women, the game will be lost. The Tyee has certainly given voice to vital territories of concern to all of us. I also think that what is needed in BC to fill the investigative role the mainstream media has failed miserably at is a good documentary film company. Film the hospitals, inside the senior residences, talk to kids about their schools, try to find a caretaker in our parks, walk the streets and talk to the homeless. You don't need names, you only need pictures. That's why Michael Moore was so effective, people don't forget what they see. That's why advertising works and it would be a great counter to those glossy misleading BCliberal ads. The NDP should take note.

One last thing, if only a film crew could have filmed this scene that took place recently in Powell River. The townsite of Powell River has been declared a national heritage site. Logging trucks that usually pillage our mountainous coast forests crept closer and could be found this year logging next to residents' homes in the heritage townsite. When one of the trucks rolled over a bank it brought down power lines right into the yards of a number of residents, landing on garage roofs, in trees and onto the neighbourhood streets - the danger inherent in this situation needs no mention. It is especially chilling when you realize a lot of young couples with little children live in these homes. That picture would have said a lot about the state of logging in BC.

Well said, lynn. And if the ndp won't support an aspiring young documentary film maker there must be other funding sources.

md said "Just because "big papers" like the NY Times overuse anonymous sources and don't take the time to check some facts doesn't mean all journalists should do the same, or that such behaviour even approaches acceptable journalistic behaviour."

Unfortunately I would say the opposite is true. If every journalist does it then it is acceptable journalistic behaviour. We have to live in the real world and not in the world of "should be".

Also, saying Barbara never checked her facts is an assumption which I can't agree with based on her work in the past, including at the Province.

Well if anything events are proving that the pendulum is still swinging and that we may have just experienced the apogee of the arc of public opinion...the next election at least has the current government flying its true colours and the electorate will now be able to see exactly what we are getting pk

FranK: I never questioned whether or not McLintock checked her facts; please read more carefully. I did, however, lament her use of only unnamed sources. And regarding your casual acceptance, even emracement, of sloppy, lazy journalistic prractices as entirely acceptable solely because everyone seems to be doing it, well, all I can say to that is you get the journalism you deserve. Our mothers used to trot out that old classic about "If your friends all jumped off a cliff, would you too?" I guess you're one of those people who responded in the affirmative. Chacun a son gout. Speaking for myself, I prefer to read news with facts that can be verified, as should any right-thinking, intelligent, informed individual.

But I'm not a journalist nor have I ever gone to journalism school and nor do I count any journalists among my friends. I'm just saying holding the Tyee to a standard everyone else ignores is unrealistic. And based on your standard what papers could you possibly be reasing?

Frank: Sorry, I'm officially blue in the face. And I can't say any more than what you yourself just said. That says it all. And as I've said before, most people get the "journalism" they deserve.

Lynn makes a great comment about the need for documentaries and although we do not have the films, Bill Piket with his web site at

http://www.haveyouhadenoughyet.com/index.php

is the closest we, in BC, are to Micheal Moore right now.

The documentary "Tale of an Addicted City" has made a big impact in Vancouver. We have the first safe injection site in North America as a result.

I think you are all missing the point - the BC Liberals with all but two of the seats in the legislature are in a constant state of implosion and have been since about 12 months after they were elected. This has nothing to do with their policies or direction, it has to do with the type of people the have representing them, their ego's their personal agendas [we all have them] and their lack of time in the spotlight. How long can this constant patting of their own backs go on ? I've known Christy Clark since her days at SFU, she is a strong, outspoken woman with a family tradition of liberalism. The party she belongs to are not Liberals at all, they are not even Socred [who had a degree of social conscience]. The Liberals of BC are right-wing in the sense of Republicans, they cover up this fact with the presence of people like Clarke, when people like Clarke leave the true colours of the party will be exposed.

I agree, Sue, Bill Piket's website "Have you had enough yet?" is one of the great ones.

Rocker biff: Christy Clark defended the Campbell agenda of massive cuts every time she stood up in the legislature. She had an absymal record as Minister of Education and she is responsible for much of the chaos in our schools today because of their underfunding. Read the legislative hansard and see how she voted on issue after issue. She was a good little soldier of the Campbell regime - one of the best, in fact. It may be flattering for her to believe she is a liberal but actions are the truest indication of character and Ms. Clark ain't no liberal - not by a long shot.

Lynn: I don't doubt what you say for a second. Party politics being what it is maybe she had to compromise her values and finally she has had enough of it. I'm not saying I agree with what she has been a part of, just that the Christy Clark I knew and the Christy Clark that is in the legislature seem to be two different people.

I pity an actual liberal in the BC Liberal caucus. How hard must it be to watch the lies and abuses and contempt for the people, and have to keep your mouth clamped shut so tight.

Rockerbiff: Pretend for a moment that are a slave and the only thing standing between you and freedom is your vote... so you vote for the anti-slavery candidate. She wins. You can feel the chains loosening...but when she takes power, she votes every chance she gets for the continuance of slavery, she brings in legislation promoting slavery, and she defends slavery every time she rises to speak.

Her every action betrayed her words. So, did she compromise or betray? Remember, as a slave, your life depends on how you answer these questions. In game show lingo, "to tell the truth", I think the "real" Christy Clark has stood up, you just have to recognize it.

Maybe she didn't either compromise or betray. Maybe she just lied to get what she wanted. Seems to have been quite a lot of that about.

If Christie Clark is an actual Liberal, maybe she just believed the lies told by those other "Liberals" who are nothing bet retread Socreds who had been so exposed in their corruption that they knew they were unelectable in their true colours. There's been a lot of that about too.

So, there are social conservatives and pro-lifers in the BC Liberal Party after all, despite its organizational linkages to the Federal Liberal Party. Just prior to the 2001 election, I sent several reporters and pundits copies of a letter that MLA Ted Nebbeling had sent out in 1999 warning of the growing backroom influence of the social conservatives in the Campbell Caucus. I wanted to ask these journalists whether or not this kind of thing would be news during the provincial general election. The answer was generally a no and a yawn, except for a Globe and Mail reporter who angrily asked me what business was it of mine to ask about this kind of thing. In the provincial general election next May, don't expect the social conservative views and actions of the various Mary Pollaks in the BC Liberal Party to be any bigger an issue in the mainstream media, including the CBC, than what they were in the recent byelection, when all we heard about from Mike Palmer and Vaughn Smyth was twinning the Port Mann Bridge and unions running the NDP and the Jagrup Brar campaign office. Two questions. What is the status, post byelection, of the Port Mann twinning project? Second question. How does the media rationalize the starkly different treatment of the abortion issue in last June's federal election and the what gets done in provincial elecions?

Interesting isnt it - how the News media plays the game, plays along like good little boys & girls ? Guess they won't have a job either, if they dont. So what about INTEGRITY ? ? What about the Province they also live in ? How do they live with themselves - real easy ?