Falcon will indeed make the "right" decision, but this decision will be based on his government's priorities, not those of West Vancouver residents. What West Van is about to discover is what every other host of the Games has found: Number 1, each and every time, its about what's best for the IOC. Next, it's what's best for the politicos and their developer backers who are the local shock troops for the IOC. Anyone else is far out of the running. Sorry to tell you, in the Games, its all about winners and losers, and ordinary people are not the former. As for promises of green Games: totally apart from Eagle Ridge, think what the Games will do to the Callaghan: now an alpine valley with minimal logging and development, soon to be a 4 season resort to rival Whistler. Sorry, Mr. Moonen and Mr. Evans: We told you what the Games were made of. You bought the hype, now you get the reality. Enjoy.

Oh the bitterness this government engenders. How about - west vancouver residents are finally discovering what union workers,welfare recipients, children and the like, have already discovered about the neocon B.C. "Liberals." This majority government can do and does do what it (or its behind the scene backer) wants. [Everyone knows that social workers are much more comfortable removing abused children from poor households because as EH above notes, the wealthy make more noise and have "connections."] But will the rich prevail this time? I am of two minds: I want west van residents to "fail" because perhaps that will be the final nail in the coffin of the present majority government at the election in May 2005; but I want west van residents to "win" because I would prefer a tunnel, which is the most long term practical solution. What a dilemna.....oh the bitterness...

Chris... not so fast on the Callaghan. I've spent a lot of time there. Former gold mine site, fomer west coast clearcut logging site, forestry road all over, including right to the lake (read 4x4's and beer drinking rednecks - guilty as charged). And in the winter, snowmobiles everywhere. Suddenly, a development (green or no, certainly much more environmentally sensitive than current conditions) of a nordic resort doesn't look so bad. If you want to talk about enironmental concerns, how about the inability of the Whistler infrastructure (such as the Cheakamus River) to support the ecological footprint of all the 2010 activities. If you want pristine, you have to look elsewhere (and there are lots of places even near Whistler).

As one of the very few right-of-centre types who seems to post on this site, here's my take. West Vancouver is the wealthiest community in Canada. If they want a more expensive option - a tunnel - they should pay for the fucking difference themsleves.

I never said Callaghan was pristine...still what it is, or should be, is a far cry from what it will be: a 4 season resort with a golf course, hotels, lots of roads, etc. In other words, a mini version of Whistler and part of what the entire Games bid is really about. One can make various arguments in favour of such a development, but this is not a "green" option.

Wow! The rarified atmosphere up in West Vancouver must be having a deleterious effect on the thinking of its residents. For retired teacher Michael Evans to have to rethink his support for the "Green" 2010 Olympics because the proposed route will destroy a kilometer or so of hillside in West Vancouver is beyond ridiculous. Are these people considering the "greenness" of the highway project only when it affects them directly in their priviledged enclave on the hillside? I have to ask these residents: "Where were your voices when this project was first announced? What in the hell is so green about a 600 million dollar, multi-lane and 120 km highway punched through the coast mountains to Whistler as part of the 2010 Olympics? Or where you perfectly happy with this megaproject when it was originally proposed because the improved road meant added convenience in accessing your properties in Whistler?" I didn't see West Vancouver's Mayor Ron Wood out advocating alternative methods of transport, whether it meant an improved passenger rail service or whatever, back when they were all too briefly discussed-and dropped-because they were too "expensive." Now he's sounding more radical than a Greenpeacer what with his sudden environmental awareness. What is the eventual cost of this highway going to be, now that West Vancouver wants their portion hidden from sight? Never mind the massive ecological damage to one whole side of Howe Sound, what is the cost to the environment going to be from all the additional vehicles on this road? If these people who now complain about environmental values had had any belief in a green Olympic games they would have been pushing for an alternative, more sustainable alternative than more blacktop. After all for a 17 day event you could have accomodated the additional people with some planning, a hundred or so buses and a few extra trains. Now they are sounding like those anti-light rail residents of Vancouver's Westside who were so adamantly opposed to a RAV system down Arbutus even though a rail right of way already exists because, as one resident was so eloquently quoted, "we're the creme de la creme " and we're not going to put up with anything so plebian as a transit line through our exclusive neighbourhood. Face it West Vancouver, highway expansion is an ugly business, and you're going to have to put up with your share of it unless, of course, you have the same kind of pull as the Westsiders in Vancouver. You think?

Some of the posters here are implying that certain people are 'getting what they deserve', either for being rich, or for supporting the Olympics in the first place. Who cares? The govt is proposing that it cut a 100 metre-wide swath through Eagle Bluffs, cutting the Baden Powell trail in 1/2, and disrupting an ecosystem in the process. If you buy the argument that this is not an ecologically sound project, what possible difference does it make that somebody might get their just desserts?

Well Doug, I guess I could offer the same advice I received from city hall when they wanted to locate a needle exchange accross the street from my condo. You can always move if you don't like the view.

Oh dear, what a delicious dilemma. I'd suggest that W.Van mayor John Wood take advantage of his community's unique situations and help shut down this entire political pig trough. Even if Scrooge were your accountant chances are if you live in W. Van you pay more taxes than say laid-off millworkers in Burnaby, so it's in your interests not to have your hard earned pesos squandered in Whistler unless your doing the squandering. Now all you people way out there in W. Van have two reasons to be really pissed off at the Campbell government and both have to do with those dang Olympics. Revolt!

I think the problem most people have with these West Vancouverites is how hypocritical they are. I can remember reading many comments from people in that area complaining about their tax dollars going towards RAV or any rail transit solution in Vancouver. I specifically remember one lady who wrote to the Courier saying why should I pay towards it, it has no benefit for me. I felt like telling her that when she can see Mt. Baker clearly with no smog she will realize the benefit. West Vancouverites have constantly complained about their property taxes paying for Vancouver's transit system. When everyone stops being so self-involved and realizes we are all in this together things may actually work out.

" I guess I could offer the same advice I received from city hall when they wanted to locate a needle exchange accross the street from my condo. You can always move if you don't like the view. wrote Eddy, with an experts parry and thrust.

True, an ecological disaster is such anywhere, in any neighbourhood. But, standing at one of the major "class lines" in the lower mainland, like penniless pauper urchins staring wide-eyed into the candy store window, we will have to be excused for not being able to muster much sympathy for the "well heeled" kids who otherwise get pretty much anything they might desire. Gordo is their man, bought and paid for, and one of their kind. We find the irony just too delicious-, like sweet candy.

Sorry. We can't help it.They wanted the Olympics. Well, now they've got it. Originally content in the knowledge as they were, that it was only we Great Unwashed who would be negatively effected. For them, they expected that it would "naturally" be, nothing but a positive.

Even they must see the deliciousness of the irony we savour.

I just HAD to say, "Let them eat cake!" :-)

i think that there are only two obvious choices; the tunnel or upgrading the existing highway. i would like to see the existing highway upgraded. it is less costly and it is already there. i am only a teenager, but i would like to see a healthy inviroment. my family and i go for walks up there and i dont want to see it destroyed. the b.c. liberals don't care but they should.

"You can always move if you don't like the view."

Move where? Away from East Van where I live? Eddy Haskell, Coyote's so-called 'expert', is parrying and thrusting with shadows....

I'm a frequent user of various stretches of the Baden Powell trail, some in West Van, and I happen to enjoy the view from Eagle Bluffs where the proposed highway is supposed to run.

Sure, the irony is delicious, and schadenfreude is always fun; but will you tolerate needless ecological destruction just because it allows you to laugh at those who live near it?

I don't give a rat's a$$ about how West Van citizens feel about the highway...I simply don't want to see the ecosystem damaged. Period.

"...I simply don't want to see the ecosystem damaged. Period." says East Van resident, Doug.

And that I can relate to. Though I am still licking away on my "irony lollipop".

Though my real sympathy goes out to all those bears being shot this summer in Whistler, who dare to try and feed on their former "home range" in that now richman's playground. (They need more, more, more room to play and jet set.) An issue which deserves as much attention from all the sudden West Van ecology activists now bleeding their hearts all over the bloody place.

By all means, let's do get it all in perspective!

I'm with Coyote on this one: one shouldn't enjoy the irony lolllipop too much with so much at stake for all of us, but it's hard not to. I'm still trying to get used to the idea of West Van glitterati lying down in front of the tractors to protest the road. We all know what would happen in East Vancouver or on 1st Nations land to anyone trying anything of the sort. Still, you never know: a bit of pepper spray, some tear gas, a few plastic bullets and we might just grow some radicals in West Van as they see what happens when you buck the system.

The moot point being that the Baden Lake trail will be bisected if the highway proposal goes through. Too bad... you will just access the trail from a different place on the highway. I'm sorry you feel your vista will be ruined by having a highway in the landscape. But then how did you get there in the first place. Did someone mention an ecological disaster? Stop the hyberbole. The eagles still fly and there is already a major highway in the area as well as environmentally intrusive urban developement. Which is what this is all about. Highways don't pay municipal taxes. Homeowners do.

Half of the story is missing from this article: West Vancouver council has a plan to develop up to the 1200 feet level. They're planning residential (palaces), parks, schools, the full suburban works. It's all there in last year's council minutes. Imagine what a highway will do for property values. And they're crying about the environment? What a trick they're trying to pull! What is Cypress Mountain Ski Resort and it's expansion doing in an environmental zone? And Michael Evans is quoted as saying the eagles are "there because of the richness of the flora and fauna which owe their presence to the wetlands." He can only mean the wetlands in the Fraser Delta - you know those wetlands which are sliced and diced by highways 10, 99, 17, 91, the runways and flightpaths of the Vancouver Int'l Airport, the BC Ferry causeway, the Superport railways and causeways. It must have been out of their concern for those wetlands that his city council voted against the RAV line. Everyone north of the North arm of the Fraser doesn't think twice about zooming along the freeways to the south, but heaven help the rest of us if we want to scoot through their backyards.

Well, Chris...Coyote..Bring out your cameras, and the buttered popcorn. Wondering if the glitterati might have stand-ins to lay down for this passionate display at the end of the day? The "Highwayman from Hawaii"..just approved it.

this link shows council's discussion of development plans http://www.westvan.org/cdwv/agenda/020225.shtml

West vanners could perhaps emulate budhist monks, only set their money on fire instead of themselves, the smell of someone else's money burning would instantly bring the bc liberals running...if all else fails, play hula music and have a big pitcher of martinis handy as well as some contracts, for napkins.....hell, let phil hochstein build a mall, paint it green and then the liberals can PRIVATIZE the ecosystem, which as we all know from the bc liberals is their green solution for everything, when you said green, they thought you meant long green.....but don't worry, you'll get to keep the land under the mall.....

My wife and I are not rich and certainly don't find it an easy thing to afford living in West Vancouver. We are not even well off. It is through a bit of good luck and a choice we have made to live here simply and without frills so that we can enjoy the natural beauty. We value the ecosystems on the north shore and have lived in North and West Vancouver for many years. I opposed both the Olympics and the Campbell government. I had a Green Party sign on my lawn this past federal election. Some of the posters on this site should focus on the real issues and not type-cast people and grade their concerns based on unfounded characterizations. After all, I did not change between the time I lived in Burnaby, Vancouver, North Van and West Van. Why should my voice be less valid because I make my home in West Vancouver? Kevin Falcon is from West Vancouver yet he wants to ruin some of the most valuable parts of it. Some on this board sound eerily familiar -- like those who would classify East Vancouverites as ne'er-do-wells, or like he who said "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists". The fact is that the ecosystems that remain in West Vancouver should be available for the future generations of flora, fauna, and all British Columbians to enjoy. The fact is that these lands are largely undeveloped and posess great non-commercial value just like Burns Bog does. By preserving as many vestiges of nature as possible close to an urban centre and exercising a precautionary principle in planning, we can provide an example to the rest of the world and show them how to bring nature and city together. Join your voices and focus on the result that needs to be achieved.

Eddy, Chris, Coyote, Congratulations suckers! You've just bought the Minister's ploy hook, line and sinker. Why do you think Falcon has been suggesting that West Van is full of nothing but rich whiners? He knows this will appeal to all the other people he has screwed along his path to glory. Ever heard of divide and conquor? This guys propaganda has clearly been too effective. Give up your East Van/West Van, West-Side-Story-romancing and clue into the very slick marketing, by a very sick politician. This ecosystem is going down and you rejoice..."Let them eat cake"...get over it...Stop cutting off your noses to spite your faces - wake up.

"Half of the story is missing from this article:" wrote Bonnie. And from Chris, "We all know what would happen in East Vancouver or on 1st Nations land to anyone trying anything of the sort."

And there'd be about the blink of an eye concern coming out of West Van.

And thanks, Bonnie, don't those "development" plans the WV Council have really say it all. And a lot of good info and insights packed in your succinct piece there. No doubt, WV residents will be laying before the dozer blades as this evolves. (I actually hope they will.)

So, you WV residents, (and one of your number, I believe is, was, still, our old friend from "Solidarity" days, Jack Munro, former head of the IWA, also. (I'm pretty sure I remember from an old CBC story, that he lives there among the other "elites" as well. Which doesn't leave anymore that needs to be said, does it? :-)You will still have to understand our problem "relating" to your "concerns" here, Paul, for all your sacrifices. Then there's the "urban developer" fingers in this pie as well, (who Bonnie so astutely brought to our attention,) and who will likewise have a concern for this "ecological disaster" threatening their "interests", errr, the natural beauty "to be enjoyed" by all. At least, until they can get it paved, lots and services run in, and develop those "mansions" that so "enhance" nature's "natural" beauty.

This is really a tough one for us outside "that milieu", breathing that rarified air, for us to get our heads around. Sorry.

But, I still can't stop thinking about all those bears being shot in Whistler this summer. These are really the same essential people talking here; maybe with a slightly more international "jetset" twist, I don't know.

All this sudden compassion for the environment! Which is really needed, no doubt. Even the urban landscape environments of the poor. I'm even thinking of those native folks around Penticton way, who have had so much trouble trying to preserve the values of their land, against yet another thieving intrusion, for yet another "skiing development", which we need like more golf courses-, destroying the natural flora and fauna. Whither nature? Whither real compassion for nature?

I'm sure the spoonfuls being served up, very often, are supposed to taste like sugar, but I keep getting an after taste of bullshit.

"This ecosystem is going down and you rejoice..." wrote Sian.

Nobody is "really" rejoicing here, Sian. It does require some real "perspective", however. And let's face it, the rich whine louder and more often than anyone-, with the influence to back it up. It's like the rich who are always crying, "Poverty!", all the way to the bank. And most of these sudden West Van "ecologist" residents will still make their donation to the NeoCon Liberal Party, come the next election.

The next time I'm on the picket line trying keep "poverty" from my door, or natives are fighting another highway intrusion and ski hill developmet, we are no doubt going to see the WestVan rich standing shoulder to shoulder with us as well. Solidarity, right?

In a pig's eye!

And I still don't want to see anymore destruction of the natural environment anywhere, especially for highways, mega housing developments, more bloody ski-hills and/or golf courses, ANYWHERE. And I remember what and whose class interests led the fight for this Olympic development in the first place-, that's going to see still more bears killed in Whistler, and along the highway route. Which none of you sudden WestVan environmentalists even want to aknowledge here. Afterall, we can't have them bothering the moneyed tourists coming into town, to spend money in the tony shops most of us out here could only afford by blowing our food money.

We've got it in perspective. Now you need to do so as well, when you come to us expecting us to suddenly let you start crying on our shoulders.

All that said, I actually hope the highway development can be stopped. Period. And the housing developments WV city council has planned to the 1200 ft. level. Eh? :-)

Bravo Coyote, That was a great volly, and I'm glad to see you've cut through the crap and can state your true preference...So remember, when you write your letter to the Federal Environment Minister calling for an independent environmental review, as per CEAA, you can cc. us all here at The Tyee...Eh!

Thank you for all the compliments that have been flying around " glitterati" -" Creme de la Creme" etc. Upon reflection I suppose we do deserve some kudos, afterall someone has to take up the fight. And why not us - and this might come as a bit of a shock to some of you mud slinging, nay sayers- among the core group of residents who climb the bluffs to put up the protest signs are several old age pensioners from humble origins including myself a mere sixty year old,who has suffered two heart attacks, and who by dint of commitment, 36 years of public service and community involvement, worked his way up from abject poverty on the East Side ( Clark Drive)To raise a family in West Vancouver. Perhaps some of you could start showing some class by focusing on the real issues here.

"...among the core group of residents who climb the bluffs to put up the protest signs are several old age pensioners from humble origins including myself..." Thank-you for putting up the signs Michael. I saw them today -- very effective.

I am reminded here of Chunky Woodwards, for whom I worked on his Douglas Lake Ranch years ago. His "handlers" always used to speak of him as a "self made man"-, certainly in his presence, which he always seemed to "puff" up to with pleasure. The credibility of which depended a lot on what you knew and didn't know about the man, his family history, and how he came by the "families interests". There's always a particular story that passes through the lives of many "assisting" people-, my cheap labour for one, and that of many an Indian that worked for Douglas Lake as cowboys and farmers, and many another person who generated more wealth than what they got in wages, in the case of Chunky-, as well as a particular family history. Same for many another "great man". Buy cheap and sell dear, and that goes for people and the results of their labour.

Things are always easy said, but one should not be "overly" impressed by the "humble beginnings" of great men, is my experience. More often than not, we only get to see what they want us to see, and how they like to see themselves. Reality is usually somewhat different.

And being an "older" male myself, I know how we like to "clean up" and "dress up" the lives we've lived. :-) Even us "poorer" men.

Yes, yes, there are some modest income and poor people in west van, as well as environmentally conscious people, and then there are the great overwhelming majority, who made out like bandits with the 25% MASSIVE UNCAMPAIGNED UPON TAX CUT FOR THE RICH, for which disabled and poor people have both committed suicide and died in the street...I have seen exceptionally few letters from people in west van about this, or from anyone else of wealth and I have seen very few well off looking people at marches...priveleged people in this province have helped elect and support a rabid skunk, and now you are surprised that you are getting bitten, tell you what, it looks good on you, and yes, I care about ecologically sensitive areas....I also care about inner-city school children, disabled people, the old, the sick, the young and the dying AND ALL OF THE OTHER OEOPLE SO MERCILESSLY AND HEARTLESSLY ATTACKED BY THESE THUGS IN VICTORIA TO PAY FOR TAXCUTS FOR THE GREAT MAJORITY IN WEST VAN, who from the posts above, are amazingly, all horatio alger stories, and no scions of inherited wealth, so tell you what here's a little modest proposal to all you hard done by people in west van, none of whom presumably have a stake in the reduced value the highway will cause in the proposed development in the "ecological," area, just take the 25% unneeded taxcut you got and buy the land from the province, if that's not enough money, try what some welfare mothers on the eastside have had to resort to to feed their children: prostitution, an astounding growth industry under the gordon liar government, you could also put your children in care to save money, and you know, those food banks can really help all you horatio alger types pinch a penny, I know it'll be hard, but in these hard times, "some tough decisions have to be made," I know you good folks have heard that before, or perhaps even said it while sippin' merlot at your dinner parties, best of luck, may the wisdom of the market place be with you, BELIEVE BC!!! Feel better now....?

No matter where we live, it's time to think about cancelling both the Liebrals AND the Games. Think of the problems that would solve....

Actually, the part I bought hook, line, and sinker, was the part that we should build our infrastruture as cheap as possible. Ive learned my leason with Al Gordo. If it costs too much Gordo is likely to sell it for two cents on the dollar in an effort to remedy the error. Falcon made the right decision, albiet, a "tough one".

Want to save $120 million of your tax money... and save this beautiful part of BC... and give Campbell a 3-lane highway to Whistler... Here's how: Add a third lane to the existing 5km highway from Horseshoe Bay. The test mile, adding 2 lAnes to a precarious section, is now completed, at a cost of 10MILLION. A THIRD LANE 5KM SECTION WOULD LIKELY ONLY COST 30MILL. THIS MAKES BIG SENSE FOR ALL CONCERNED

Over the years I have met a few people from West Van, some of them were full of themselves and some of them were average people who bought in at the right time and the right place. One lady I knew, and still know, told me once that she was glad that the Lion's Gate Bridge was not the best at moving traffic because "it seperates us from them". Unfortunately I think that this is a somewhat prevailing attitude in not only West Vancouver but most of Vancouver. Having money is seen as sign of intelligence and it's a status symbol. People with money are listened to by the government, how else do you explain all of the MLA's who are constantly giving talks at Vancouver Board of Trade Luncheon's. I and most others believe that the majority of West Vanners could care less about the environment, development $pace is a different issue. The West Van people who read this site and make the postings are the exception and not the rule. The Olympics are an incredible cost, I do not support them but I will probably watch, we have people who can't afford medicine, post-secondary education, and food. Why the fuck do people think they are entitled to a 2 week party or however long it is? They will not stimulate the economy the job gain will be short term and besides construction most of it will low-paying. The olympics will only benefit wealthy people like those of the West Van majority. If any West Van people disagree let's talk about proportionally raising property taxes to help pay for some light rail transit in Vancouver, after all it will really benefit the environment if we get more people out of their cars.

Based on the attitudes of those itching for a class war here, if Carmanagh Valley were located in West Vancouver it would have been logged and clogged with Wal Marts long ago. I find it detestable that some people can't seem to dissasociate what the Campbell government want to do to land which happens to be in West Vancouver from their bitterness over every other injustice in the world. Get with the program people -- if this land is saved, those people who you despise won't benefit nearly as much as everyone else. After all, the road is meant to provide a cash cow to the construction firm cronies, and a pleasurable ride to the Whistler dacha for the elites in their SUVs. Have-nots, including those in the forest, do need our help. If altruistic people of means want to work to preserve it also, this should be seen as a positive thing. Go see the lands in question. Walk through them and realise that they are part of your world as Canadians, British Columbians, Vancouverites, if not West Vancouverites. Perhaps your venom would be better directed at the government. Leave the class war for another day because it is not relevant to this situation at all...

"If any West Van people disagree let's talk about proportionally raising property taxes to help pay for some light rail transit in Vancouver, after all it will really benefit the environment if we get more people out of their cars." A Good Idea (tm) from Tha Geek. By definition, property taxes are based on assessed property value so are proportional. Our MLA Nebelling managed to get an exemption from the tax grant ceiling for Whistler residents (not West Vancouver though) so that may be a good place to start when looking for equity in taxation. It won't save these lands though.

Paul... your thoughts would go a long way to convince me if West Van intended to create a municipal park using the disputed right of way. But because West Van plans are to develope the area as another enclave for the rich so that the city's tax base might be increased I'd say that you have been snowed again by another group of assholes who only care about themselves. 90 million dollars extra to build a tunnel would have fully funded St. Mary's hospital for about three years. Today, a wrecking ball is hovering in place over the building and that will ensure we are forever down one hospital.

Red hot news flash for you, paulie, THERE HAS BEEN A CLASS WAR IN THIS PROVINCE, EVER SINCE BLACK THURSDAY, and you're no doubt a member of the class that dishin' it out, solidarity? Try basic chariTy and human decency fIrst, ever raise your voice against camPbell before, and I mean gord, not larry, thanks for YOUR DEAFENING SILENCE, WEST VAN RESIDENTS EVER SINCE THE ASSAULT ON THE DISABLED AND ON EVERY VULNERABLE GROUP ON SOCIETY who don't have 750,000 worth of equity, I'll bet you'll all relect nebbelling, no matter how badly you're betrayed and lied to, thanks again for speaking up for everyone ASSAULTED for your utterly tainted taxcut, but hey, donate that cut to the foodbank, and I'll be RIGHT THERE IN SOLIDARITY, oh look there's someone from west van, drivin' a new car that could have been a hospital bed or a secure existence for several disabled people, happy trails...enjoy the cigarette buut conservancy in the new mall hochstein's building with $10 AN HOUR LABOR, YOURS IN SOLIDARITY -LEWIS SWIFT

Yes Paul proportionally set property taxes are a good idea, especially where extravagant homes are not only taxed on a value/tax ratio but also homes over a certain range pay a "luxury" type tax. I'll bet that would go over like a lead balloon. And yes Lewis is right there is a class war being waged and it has been going on for a long time. You can't argue with the numbers a shrinking middle class, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Coyote, you speak with great disdain about yet another "ski developement". Let me ask you which would you prefer to see Logging, Minning & Off shore oil drilling or ski resort developement. Tourism is the number one growth industry in b.c. & is also fully renewable if done concientously. Do you know how many unemployed loggers, millworkers, miners & ranchers now work at skiresorts?

Good point Charlotte, as a one-time logger myself I made $27.50 an hour with as many hours as I wanted or could work a week overtime after 40 hours. Boy would I be happy to take an $8 an hour job in whistler, just think I'd get 25% off on my lift ticket.

It's easy to be sarcastic, but maybe you could cut that out for just a sec and give me the use of your entire brain(not just the knee-jerk reactionary part) I would think you are a little over qualified for a liftie job and probably a little long in the tooth....why not drive a snow cat for maybe $18-20/hour and actually your skipass would be free. As well many resorts are now offering health benefits. Your gonna be hard pressed to find another job that paid as well as logging(without going back to school).

I'm only 29 so I hope that doesn't make me long in the tooth, I started driving a logging truck when I was 17. I used it as a method to pay for schooling, many years and many dollars. I will tell you that I work in one of the so-called growing sectors and have never made as much as I did logging! Miners, loggers, millworkers, etc, will always be payed much, much, much, much, much more than any tourism job, period. The number of cat drivers in all of BC does not even come close to the number of workers in one average mine or mill. Workers in the afformentioned jobs receive high wages and top notch benefits because, for the most part, they have strong unions and the work is not so seasonal. If we really want a sustainable job market tourism is not the answer, if you don't agree take a quick look at various parts of Mexico. Or look at other destinations to the south where local economies are highly dependant on tourism, poverty is the norm. Anyway I guess this is all slighty off topic from the original article and forum.

I wouldn't say this is off topic....why did they want the olympics in the first place? To create jobs? Attract tourists? In regards to your comments about loggers,miners, et al making much, much more that's very true but resource extraction is never going to be what it was and we need to find new ways that are sustainable to support ourselves. I was not trying to imply that skiresorts are ideal but they are a viable option for alot of rural people that are looking for a new means of making a living.

Sorry Charlotte, but ski hills seem to be just the latest chapter in the ongoing theft of Indian lands in B.C. Yes, it might be trendy and cool to work at a ski resort where you can grovel and kiss ass and pretend to be among the in crowd, but it certainly isn't going to pay many bills. By the way, how many snow cat drivers are employed per ski hill.? Your answer needn't be specific, but perhaps just give me a ratio on say your $18-20 an hour snow jobs vs. waitresses, servers, liftees or cleaners etc who earn $8 an hour. While your at it could you please explain what ''a little long in the tooth'' means? Are you suggesting that ski hill operators discriminate against mature workers or just the older one who know the value of a day's work? It's great to hear that ''many resorts'' are now offering health benefits, but why aren't the rest of them doing it? Yes Charlotte there is a lot of money to be made from ski hills, unfortunately the rightful owners (Indians) and most workers don't get much of it. But this whole ski hill issue is simply another distraction from the topic at hand. I will repeat my earlier advice for W. Vanners. Revolt! Help shut down this political pig trough. Oh, one other point about your comments. Please explain how a ski hill is fully renewable after several thousand condos, cabins, chalets, hotels, roads etc are ploughed into a high valley even if it is done concientously?

The reason why resource extraction will never be what it once was is because of the current companies which control resource extraction. Yes resources have become more finite, but as a country we actually produce more than ever(except perhaps for parts of the 80's). The demand for lumber, oil, minerals, cattle is constantly increasing not dwindling. If we need more why isn't the money there? Take forestry for example, it's mostly controlled by the evil empire also known as Weyerhauser. Weyerhauser is a US based company that doesn't give a shit about our environment or forestry practices which promote sustainability. Forestry is sustainable, tree's grow, (I know I'm asking for trouble with that statement) as long as it is done in a responsible manner and large efforts are placed on reforestation and harvesting practices which minimize ecosystem damage. The population of North America and the world is growing and this means we need more paper and lumber. Weyerhauser's primary concern is in keeping the cost of building materials low in the US, this keeps the shareholders happy. In order to achieve this they lay people off and close mills and replace them with contractors. I have witnessed this many times over, someone gets laid off at the mill but the company offers to finance them on a $500,000 piece of logging equipment and promises them great working conditions and high pay. Soon after these people are stuck with high payments and low pay and need to work 15 hours a day to maintain a decent living. This happens to intelligent hard working people in desperate situations, do I accept the company's offer or do I go work at Red Mountain for 4 months out of the year? Another point, look at Alberta's oil, it's almost exclusively controlled by US companies. Sure Albertan's get the "rig-pig" jobs and other spin-off employment, but where is the real money? It wouldn't be with the shareholders and CEO's in Houston Texas would it? There is no doubt we will run out of oil and minerals as they take hundreds of millions of years to "grow".

Alan, nice to hear a different perspective. That said I'm afraid I'm going to really piss you off by saying that I don't buy into the whole "theft of indian lands" and "rightful owners" business we all are stewards of this land regardless of race or historical origins. And again I will reiterate that ski resorts as employers are not a perfect option for everyone but I know a great number of people myself and my husband included who make a very comfortable living at ski resorts. As for my comment about a skiresort being renewable I was comparing it to resource extraction were it is not a finite resource and if properly managed with sound environmental practices can go on indefinately. I agree that "ploughing into a high valley" with condos and hotels isn't good for the environment but were do we draw the line between good for the environment and good for the economy? Is it a matter of the lesser of several evils? Or do we just say no to everything. How do we earn a living? Tha Geek, I agree(yes trees do grow but not as fast as we cut them down) I have seen much of what you mention first hand. Our provincial economy has been resource based for so long how do we change our practices. Is there such a thing as sustainability in resource extraction?

Servers at Whistler can rake in the cash- perhaps they make $8 an hour, but remember the tips.. my friend who worked at a pub in Banff for years would come home some (late) nights with $400 cash.. easily... never mind the union jobs...

There is as much sustainability in forestry as there ever will be in ski hills. I am glad you and your husband make a comfortable living at a ski resort. I would suggest that most don't. Infact, unless you live within the resort and either pay exhorbitant rents or crowd into unhealthy living arrangements with too many others also eking out a survival, you probably spend a good part of your income on transportation costs. Now Charlotte, it takes more than your standard industry denial of ownership, rights or responsibilities to piss me off. I've watched too many people who like to consider themselves as liberals or moderates or whatever, who at any question of ski hill land ownership turn into frothing, ranting defenders of development at any cost. Ski hill developers and, I would argue, most people who patronize their businesses are anything but stewarts of the land. They are developers and users of altered landscapes that are marketed as rarified bits of Eden. Ski hills are glorified housing developments that absorb a tiny portion of the excess wealth created by those who reap the profits of our real natural resources. Before brushing off the claims of Indian ownership, you might spend a short time checking out some of the land claims on ski hills in B.C. While I won't try to defend the capitalist land tenure system used in BC and the rest of Canada, I do understand enough about it to state with confidence that only political interference in the system keeps the Indians from their rightful possessions. In the Interior that fight has been going on since Joseph Trutch, our first Lt. Governor, in an earlier appointment as land commisioner stole most of the region's reserve lands from the Indians and gave it to his rancher pals. It may be 150 years ago, but that doesn't, in my eyes, absolve those who benefit from that theft today of their responsibility to the original and still legal owners. I use the term legal in a moral or ethical way because the land title system in BC was corrupted a long time ago. As for your concern about race or historical origins, are you saying that because they are a distinct enthic group they don't deserve the same access to ownership and rights, or are you suggesting that because they didn't do anything with the land they just lose it. Now, you've got me to wondering if there isn't a land claim or two on some of that high-end real estate out in W. Van.

Thanks for the advice that there is a class war going on. Guess what? If the people in the black hole of Calcutta could hear you people going on about West Vancouverites getting their just desserts while everyone else in Vancouver is shafted, they'd probably spew. What a load of crap. With self-righteous indignation proclamations are issued about which nature is worth saving depending on what "type of people" live nearby. Everyone is ALWAYS better off than someone else in this world. Every day we rub shoulders with winners and losers, victims and abusers. Some of us are helpers and others are hurters and we all live on each others' planet if not in each others' neighbourhood. I will now take my leave of this discussion. In spite of the odd crumb of postive activism sensed from time to time it is too disheartening to listen to (Lewis Swift take note: I have been on the picket line with you. My pen has sliced and diced Gordo and his ilk. I've protested ad infinitum the social injustice which has you crying. Now it's time for you to step up to the plate and find ways to work with others of all stripes for the better world you are seeking.).

Yes Charlotte there is such a thing as sustainable resource extraction when your talking about forestry. That was my whole point on that long-winded post above. Right now the price of building material, in the US, is far too low. This needs to increase dramatically and that money needs to be put back into forestry in Canada.

I can only sit from far away and read about the goings on over the flap of the sea to sky highway, we'd love another highway up here! how about a super highway from the north to the south so the rest of the people can see the olympics too, oh well another Liberal "promise" wink wink... sort like i won't touch hydro, or i don't tear up contracts, health care when and where you need it, i won't sell b.c rail the list goes on and on.... silly fools don't you know that even with overwhelming support of the community to save the the area by building a tunnel the libs will do what ever is easiest for their most influencial pals at the moment.. they can always inact one of their delightful pieces of legislation,one of many that were rammed thro the house over the last couple of sittings any one remember The Significant Projects act.... they can build a smelter on your corner of paradise and there is NOTHING you can do about it, the courts, you say we'll challenge that decision, too bad they have one for that as well it's called bill 19 they can overide a b.c. supreme court ruling, good luck to all the folks who put themselves out there in front of the the Campbell machine you'll face ridicule and be blamed for not getting b.c set in it's rightfull place in the world for the big O... they will slag you with whatever they can throw at you their loyalties lie not with the people of this province for they hold this great province in stewardship, not ownership! ... but we all know it will go to the highest bidder, another resort!! as for tips and unions when you work for 8 bucks an hr it's great if your young healthy, what if you get hurt how do you live who will care for you is there a bed where you can get treatment for gods sakes? can you by a house can you raise a couple of kids will you be able to pay taxes on 8$ an hr. ??, shall we all be waiters and waitreses and clerks for the elite that will go to these places?

"Let me ask you which would you prefer to see Logging, Minning & Off shore oil drilling or ski resort developement." asked Charlotte.

Actually, I think, a really good discussion from where I last read this thread. Though I must say, I can't really add much to what Allan, The Geek and Beyond Hope have said, and with whose comments I much identify. I know if I'm going to work for $8 an hour as a waitress/waiter, I'm definitely going to have to get breast implants, so I can show a little cleavage.

But to seriously address Charlottes question, I don't really see anything wrong with any of the above, done in a sustainable way and at reasonable levels, that help create viable communities and families, at decent "living levels and standards" for ordinary folks. And few of us are really looking for mansions on the West Van slopes. There's nothing particularly wrong with logging, for example, or a wood industry that maximizes the value of that wood through value added manufacturing etc., instead of just shipping boards and logs to the U.S, and buying back the "value added" products. That's a mug's and a loser's game-, which this country pretty much is becoming, in my view. And assuming there are appropriate harvesting and replanting regimes and oversight in place. (Mostly what prevents that now, is simply U.S. ownership and control of the main sectors of the industry, from the woods through to and including the border tarrifs. Which, by the way, is a situation that will be made worse by the recent passage of the Working Forest Initiative.)

On the other hand, Charlotte, let's really just be honest with each other, instead of your trying to make points by stealth: tourism, in its current congfiguration at least, is largely a minimum wage ghettoe into which minimum wage immigrant workers are forced by the circumstances of their live, to "put in their time" as chamber maids, dishwashers and such, and women, of course-, to whom it has "traditionally" been assigned. It's not a healthy "social" environment, or something one can seriously rely on to support families at a "decent" level, that will allow for home ownership, holidays at the seashore, or put the kids through college-, not without a huge personal and debt sacrifice. Though again, I can see from the "male" side of the table, the potential usefulness of a little cleavage, if you've got it. (The "high end" restaurants, on the other hand, seem to me, very often, exclusive male preserves as waiters.)

It's not so much what we do, Charlotte, it's more how we do it, how we treat the land and our own social environments, and whether or not we are doing it in a way and at incomes that allow for dignity for the workers employed there, and I would say some "input power", and human family and community development.

If it's just there to "survive" on... Fudge! Why put anymore into it than ye olde "minimum effort"? If it's done in a way that simply mindlessly rips, rapes and runs across the landscape, at whatever wages, because its controlled by U.S. or other foreign companies, who just want the wood or the material out of the ground as fast and cheap as possible, and screw the consequences, then what lasting environmental and community values is there in that?

Eh! Regardless what the ruling class or anyone else thinks, my experience is, we need some serious changes in the way the economy is run, and by who, in a class context, and serving whose and what ends. This New Neocon World Order model is a fuckup, that's only going to bring on an eventual war within society. And it's coming on faster than many might think, I guarantee.

Paul, you remind me of robert downey, in oliver stone's natural born killers, sreaming, "I was there in Grenada, when the shit went down..." WELCOME TO THE NEW ERA WEST VANNERS -HOW'S IT FEEL TO BE A SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP TOO? Don't trip over one another giving that taxcut to the food bank....I too have worked at ski resorts and resort towns, and yes, there are a FEW good waiters jobs at high end restaurants, usually held by locals, or people that have been coming back for 20 years...the vast majority of jobs are low end and low paying, fine if you're a young person that just wants to party, and doesn't mind bunking 6 to a loft or drafty, tiny cabin, once you pass 25 years of age or so, these jobs lose their charm, you almost all have lots of money west vanners, try a class action lawsuit, but you'll have to take that to the supreme court of cnada, as the bc liars seem to own all of bc's judges, at least I can't think of a single bc judge that ever turned 'em down no matter how vile, promise breaking and back-stabbing the legislation is.....a lot of the judges and lawyers in their back pocket live in west van, don't they, they'll fill you in on your new second rate status over a glass of merlot at that garden party, heh, heh. And I think those in the black hole of calcutta would be somewhat more inclined to identify with those living in the downtown eastside, you know, those folks you've all decided can crawl off and die, just so you get your unneeded taxcut....yeah, there have always been winners and losers, but now, thanks to your pimp in victoria, there's one hell of a lot MORE losers, and a damned sight fewer winners, with the winners left making out like bandits, how's the wisdom of the market place now, west vanners? Welcome to "special interest group status," it looks good on you....

Like it or not most of you idiots voted for these assholes so buck up and swallow deep,and try and do better next time out,the fast ferries dont look so bad when you look at these clowns, wait till you see them give half or better of the billion back to the cn. Cheers I love the bullshit.

Sian and I have left the debate while the rest of you carry on your class warfare diatribe. This note is for Bonnie who does appear to be sane and concerned. Referring to the wetlands " He can only mean the wetlands of the Fraser ...." No Bonnie, in point of fact I was refering to the area of wetlands up in behind the Bluffs that supports the rich flora and fauna of this unique ecosystem. If you hike up the Baden Powell Trail for about 1.5 kilometers you will see them to your left. Walk into them ...carefully and you will see the surveyors tape left by the highways ministry . their original route went directly over the wetlands.. destroying them. In the new "overland route" the by- pass will miss the wetlands directly and the government plans to " mitigate" the negative effects of a four -lane highway only a few yards away. We do not believe such mitigation will protect the area. It's integrity as an ecosystem will have severely compromised . Also connectivity for all the wildlife will be lost , the highway will create an isolated area , ringed by concrete of about 23 acres . And who goes hiking next to a four lane highway? The Trans Canada Trail, belongs to all Canadians not just West Vancouverites.

Gee Michael, good thing you learned to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, but please have a little consideration for some who didn't quite make it to your neck of the woods. It's obvious you are uncomfortable discussing class issues, which isn't surprising given that debate on the issues in W. Van is likely not a regular occurance. But it seems you can certainly spot class warfare when you see it, so I can only assume you understnad it even if you opt to ignore it. The real issue here is the problems that will or are already arising because of the inane demand B.C. host the Olympics. Some are financial, others are about real land ownership, much of it is about fairness on a province-wide basis and a good part of it is about your ox that now faces the developers backhoe and other environmental issues. Don't try to separate out a tiny little pocket of land in the backyard of the wealthiest community in Canada as the turning point in this fiasco. The loss of habitat all the way through Whistler and beyond is at stake, but so is the livelihood of thousands of British Columbians who can't afford the cost of these games and who certainly will not get to stick their noses into the pig trough that will be dripping our tax dollars onto the so-called elite who follow these events like besotted camp followers looking for new pockets to empty. By the way, any time you want to study real environmental problems let me know and I'll give you a tour of some Interior locations that have been or are in the process of being destroyed so that resource industry investors who live in W. Van can continue building and enlarging their palaces in paradise.

Allan, I think, has written just about the damn finest piece this entire thread. An exceptionally good and loaded post, Al. I enjoyed it immensely, and agree with its content entirely.

"...the fast ferries dont look so bad when you look at these clowns..." from Ed. To which, other than to say, "Bang on!", nothing further needs to be added.

Bye, Michael and Sian. Sorry the reality of "class issues" upset your Green sensibilities so much. Unfortunately, they are as much a part of the real world many of us face, as is this sudden moral outrage of West Vanners that their much prized Olymics is actually going to impact on them as well, in ways other than loot in their pocketbooks. It's only the rest of us in the province who were to have our oxes gored-, we know that.

Nonetheless, we'll be watching to see how your "special interests" fare on the barricades here, and West Vanner's new found "radicalism".

I really hope the project goes through,the amount of green space being paved over is very little for so much return,plus it will be nice to look at the nice homes on my way to go sking

Thank you Coyote. I get increasingly irate with these higher-than-thou types, who when offered advice, accuse you of using their plight as an excuse to beat up on their favorite politicians. For a short time I thought all that bleating coming out of W. Van was a call for help, but as I read through these posts it is becoming clear these whiners expect special treatment. Well it looks like Ted Nebbling, Keven Falcon and Gordon Campbell are about to deliver it. Enjoy. As Ed pointed out above ''you voted for these assholes.''

After reading the above comments I ask: can we remember to separate the ecosystem in question from any feelings one may have to neighborhood stereotypes? (If you cannot, I am an east side resident) Eagle ridge is one of the very few places in the lower mainland that have a distinctive Gulf Islands type Arbutus (and associated species) plant community. I often go the bluffs for that "Gulf Island feeling” And the view is spectacular! This is Vancouver’s forehead for anyone at English bay or approaching our city by water or plane. Conversely any highway will leave a nasty very visible scar. Our Olympic scar that will commemorating the loss of the best example of this plant community near our city. What an Olympic legacy!

One should pay closer attention to the mumblings of MLA Barry Penner, who is championing the construction of a highway North along Harrison Lake to connect with Whistler. The proposed route would get people from The Valley to Whistler a lot faster and golf courses and other outdoor recreation would increase economic activity. Good stuff Barry! Are your constituants who work and own golf courses in the Chilliwack area aware that you are lobbying on behalf of Whistler's constituants? What's wrong with the outdoor recreation in The Valley that necessitates that all roads lead to Whistler? And how is your sore back Brary? A lot of Liberal supporters have suggested, in these forumns, that back problems are phoney excuses for lazy people who do not want to work.

JRG... I grew up in the Columbia Valley. The place was parradise in ayone's eyes. It was flooded out an is now a dry and dusty mudflat. This was all for the benefit of the "Urban Elite" and the resivoir does not even produce electricity. Now that developement threatens the play ground of the elite they cry hands off. I say grow up and take some responsibility for your high environmental impacting lifestyle of driving to the park and throwing your juice containers off the cliff.

Eddy... You answered my question.

Hey everyone I just happened to get my hands on a small nuclear warhead. I was thinking about launching it at West Van but need to raise a thousand dollars for rocket fuel. Anyone wishing to make a donation can do so at www.ihatewestvan.org. Cheers

I moved from West Van to Surrey. Am I OK now?

Why exactly are we widening this thing anyway for a 2 week event?

In day to day life, traffic on the Sea to Sky is fine.

Make it three lanes; encourage even more passing; yay. I like death. Death is good. Most traffic fatailities happen during lane changes. Rarely does a car speed up so much that it rear ends the car right in front of it without, you know, noticing that it's about to hit the car right in front of it.

My simple solution for the Sea to Sky olympics: - only media, athletes and coaches can drive to Whistler; everybody else takes a bus/train - exemption for local residents; people from Lion's Bay get a pass for the duration of the games that lets them drive the highway; residents of Squamish could get the same thing - tickets to events in Squamish include the price to get there; you have a ticket, you get transported; you don't have a ticket, you pay for transport; you don't pay for transport, you don't go to Whistler for two weeks. Boo hoo. Not like the resort is open anyway. - enforce the rules in the parking lot; if someone says they're driving to Lilooet and you find their car in a Whistler parking lot, impound it and crush it into a little tiny cube.

West vancouver has sprawling mansions and a highway plowed through it already! If it's so fucking delicate everybody in West Vancouver should move into high density strata-titled housing and lets let the place go wild again. Man it feels do to get that off my chest.

I get very uneasy when people tout tourism as a viable "industry". Tourism is a rip-off. Those with disposable income (and there actually are fewer of them all the time) do not want anything "new"...they want their American beer, their US Grade A beef steak, they want what they recognize and it gets shipped in (thanks free trade!) for them so THAT money is spent outside Canada...those who are not wealthy enough to ski down the slopes become hewers of wood and drawers of water...for crying in the night LOOK at places which exist for "the tourist trade"...tropical islands where white bodies tan on the beach and the dark skinned make pittance wages to carry drinks and towels..why do you think WE will be any better off in a tourist "industry". Only the priviledged can take advantage of Whistler, and to lick their nether regions and shine their shoes with their tongues, local people will be waiters at minimum wage, the bears will be slaughtered because god forbid any of these green-leaning wealthy might lose some garbage or even, jesus save us, a poodle or two..and after the bears the cougars...and eventually the children of the poor... as someone who lives in a small town which has lost it's sawmill industry and who will NOT go to the Olympics either as competitor or observer, I am absolutely overwhelmed with a feeling of pride and glee at the chance to pick up the tab for all this conspicuous consumption and to think we've barely managed to break even on Expo and now we get another huge hidden debt. I mean PLEASE stop playing with your badoinkey and look at reality. Of course it is a class war. Whining otherwise just makes you look foolish as well as grossly misinformed. Hang in Coyote, Lewis, Fiona... your posts make good sense to me and it is an absolute joy to know you're out there. SOLIDARITY, my friends. As TC said "it is not to late , my friends, to make a better world".

What about the other option. Forget the highway. Start frequent train service between North Vancouver and Whistler. Offer incentives to get people off the highway and into the trains. It is chepaer than upgrading the highway. And this really is the most green option. Trains NOT lanes.

ah! boo who for the poor west van guys.whine whine,quit your bitching.if you don't like it remember the provincial election next year.oh by then they will have forgotten and gladly re-elect dictator gordo and company.

Don't believe what you read in the vancouver scum, these filthy liars in victorias are NOT going to get reelected karl, no matter what tainted fraser porkstitute statistics are printed in the sun, or what biased, let's call all the folks in shaughnessy and west van polls ipsos-read releases, just vote get your friends on the voters list, AND REMEMBER, ANY TEMPORARY UPWARD BELCH IN THE BC ECONOMY HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BC LIARS, BUT IS RATHER BECAUSE OF LOW INTEREST RATES FUELING HOUSING STARTS AND HIGH PRICES FOR RAW RESOURCES, two factors having absolutely nothing to do with the bc backstabbing liars, HOW'S THAT TAXCUT NOW WEST VAN? THANKS AGAIN FOR SPEAKING UP FOR ALL THE VULNERABLE PEOPLE ASSAULTED FOR YOUR TAINTED MONEY....

I also find it highly instructive, THAT NOT ONE SOLITARY POSTER FROM WEST VAN HAS COME FORWARD AND EXPRESSED ANYTHING RESEMBLING REGRET OR APOLOGY FOR GORDON LIAR'S ASSAULT ON THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN BC-NOT ONE- yet we, the rest of us are supposed to line up behind the quality because the pathetic excuse for a leader and a human being, the drunkard you have used your wealth amd media connections to install, has, for a change, done something the upper crust doesn't like, if not for the ecological damage, the loss to the people of bc who have kept something of their humanity, which folks from your part of town have so obviously traded in for tax breaks, then, for all of me, they can turn the area into a cesspool and you can go swim in it, truly 95% of the upper crust would seem not fit to spit shine the boots of the lowest hastings street derelict...and dimwits, the ndp is not just a party of unions, it's also interested in how children fare, everybody's children, not just yours, it cares about families, and communities, whether "sustainable," or not, you people would obviously support the nazi party if they offered you a tax break, you disgust me....

with that logic lewis you should apologize for mulroney who the west helped elect. you are acting like the fascist here - wv only elected one mla out of the entire legislature yet you hold all of them accountable for all of your complaints. note that in the fed election john reynolds only squeaked in compared to earlier elections where he waltzed in.

Perhaps I just don't drive it often enough (2 or 3 visits to Squamish and/or Whistler every year), but the current Sea To Sky has always seemed alright to me. Why is it considered a death-trap? Sure, it's curvy, but if people would only drive at a sensible... oh.

"Sure, it's curvy, but if people would only drive at a sensible... oh. " wrote Ron.

LOL. A point for Ron.

I don't use my pickup much anymore, except to take the old lady and I on holidays. to pull my wee trailer, or to go into town for stuff, but your point is true on every damned highway in the province, and beyond.

What is it about Albertans especially, for god's sake!?

And humoungous bloody trucks! The highways are clogged with them in our area. Take the subsidies off trucking and get them back on rail, for crying out loud.

But whatever, don't build or widen anymore highways. We'll only fill the damned things in time anyway-, at least until like fhb said elsewhere, oil supplies do finally play out-, or we choke out our own air supply first-, which is one way to solve the over-population/over-development problem. And, in the end, may well be the way nature will do it. We, and the folks in West Van probably more than most, don't seem to be smart enough or motivated enough yet to do it our own.

But build more roads, and the Humvees, SUVs, cars and big rigs will come, filled with folks in an all fired hurry to go nowhere and do nothing important, at bullet speed. Though the Neocon times, diminishing jobs and declining incomes, and the rising price of gas are working on the problem in quite another way too.

And again, those bloody Albertans! They fly these mountain passes and pass on double lines like they were out on the bald face of the planet! Put the pedal to the metal and bury the speedometer needle, and the Albertans are still going to go flying past like you're standing still!

Capitalism. Built for excess! Our Albertans seem to understand and be able to afford that better than any of us... until their oil supply finally pays out and humbles them.

Hey observer get a reality check. How many of downtowners or east Vanners belong to or support either the Fraser Institute or the Vancouver Board of Trade? West Van may have only elected one MLA but my guess is that those residents hold substantial power with this business friendly government. But that's okay deny, deny, refute. Eventually we will come for the elite and their brethren, this has happened time and time again you cannot refute history. Hopefully sooner rather than later!

to Tha Geek: yes many fat cats in wv are bedded with the drunkdriver in victoria but the point is that those in wv who are not should be recruited not refuted. also time and time again the innocent have been brutalised by supposed liberators often being no better or even worse than those they replace. a current reference is yassar arafat whose people are revolting against his corrupt/brutal/repressive rule. also refer to the cambodian experience where simply having an education cost your life. anyhow, you're right - history will repeat itself until evolution whacks the bozos back into the mud.

I have to say observer your last argument really didn't make any sense to me. Who are the bozo's that are going "back to the mud"? Furthermore you say that the liberators are are often worse, yet in your example I think that your saying that Arafat is worse than the liberators? This all sounds relatively CNN'ish to me, Cambodia I know very little about.

True, Pol Pot and Arafat do represent some extremes in policy. But what about the French? France seems to redistribute it's wealth every thirty years or so since Napoleon and the country is considered one of the best nations on the planet.

It is ridiculous for this Gordon Campbell government of lemmings to spend multi millions on a new highway. You just have to know there is a hidden agenda. I agree with many of the comments above, but in particular: FIRSTLY, IT IS NOT THE HIGHWAY THAT IS THE PROBLEM - IT IS THE DRIVERS. SECONDLY, OF COURSE THE RAILWAY SHOULD BE BETTER UTILIZED - YOU KNOW, THE B.C. RAILWAY THAT THE HON. W.A.C. BENNETT BUILT FOR THE PEOPLE TO OWN AND PROSPER FROM. I have heard Gordon Campbell say how he admires former Premier W.A.C.and what he built with foresight for British Columbians; funny thing, he's destroyed everything that Mr. Bennett built. Gordon Campbell has a great deal to learn in life as do the other members of his government. Perhaps after they all go over the cliff together they will GET IT.

Ah, yes, observer, I remember you, you're one of the people helping gordon liar mount the assault on the disabled to help pay for the taxcut for the rich. Many suicides, lately? As tha geek points out, the fact that west van has only one mla has very little to do it. Gordon liar's "government" treats mlas like sheep anyway, having them constantly drilled, and terrorized by martyn brown, and very probably also coerces them into signing loyalty oaths, as well...but we'll be getting our hands on those files after may 17, 2005, when the class action lawsuits begin....Since west vanners are obviously incapable of responding to any arguments based on human decency, which they somehow seem to regard as something to be bought and sold in the marketplace, I will mount an ecological argument. THE PEOPLE OF WEST VAN HAVE SUPPORTED, FINANCED AND BENT THE KNEE WITH TOTAL SUBSERVIENCE TO A GOVERNMENT THAT SUPPORTS COAL BURNING GENERATED HYDROELECTRICITY, MINING AND DRILLING IN NATIONAL PARKS, THE POTENTIAL DESTRUCTION OF ONE OF THE WORLD'S LAST PRISTINE ECOSYSTEMS, HAIDA GWAII, (THE CHARLOTTES) FOR NO BETTER MOTIVE THAN GREED, AND THAT HAS GUTTED REGULATIONS PROTECTING FORESTS, OCEANS, ESSENTIALLY BC'S ENTIRE ECOSYSTEM!!! You now expect the rest of us to jump into YOUR environmental battle, while leaving all of the rest of the massive ecological damage done by this government intact, truly, your mindless complacency is surpassed only by your greed, your smugness, and your betrayal, not only of your children, FOR A TAINTED TAXCUT, but most disgracefully oyher people's children as well....disgusting, Welcome to your mcfuture in this new, fast-food era of government, which comes with lots of gaudy promotion, funded by your tax dollar, featuring the psychopathic clown with the frozen rictus of a grin, RONALD McCAMPBELL, the burgers served are made with the meat of disabled children, the poor and every vulnerable group in bc, accompanied by the fraser porkstitute and canwest politically and economically diabetic milkshakes, and sweet and aspartame flavored fraser porkstitute/canwest global treats that will destroy you and your children's and other children's health and future, WELCOME TO THE NEW ERA OF YOUR McFUTURE, and remember the old saying what goes around comes around...no matter how large your tainted tax cut.....

wow to spend 600 million dollars to upgrade the sea to sky highway from 2 lanes to 3 lanes does't make sence...unless you connect it up to the 3 lane lions gate bridge and put in a counterflow system?.what a useless upgrade,as per usual its a short term solution to a long term problem.just drive the speed limit and i'm sure it would't be called the killer highway anymore!!!

Lewis, you somewhat "miraculously" missed good ol' John Reynolds, the West Vancouver dinosaur Reform (oops "Conservative", that's it).."MP", who has yet to get it that he nearly lost his seat by a millimetre for a reason, and yet is on the bandwagon for offshore oil now (like all old right wingers without a sustainable policy clue)..since the shuffle has seen the departure of "we'll govern as if we had a majority" David Anderson.

West Vancouver, you really rock politically and environmentaly. When it's about your own backyard (literally), and absolutely nowhere else on the physical or political landscape beyond your private domain, that is.

Well many interesting idea's and claims made in this forum. Great idea's from Rob, Mike, Donna, Rob B, Ron, you guys are all correct. One thing though that some people are missing is that this highway decision isn't going to make any sense, not to some West Vanners or anyone else (except for the brainwashed drones of Vancouver Sun readership and CTV news watchers). It won't make any sense because it's being decided upon by the idiotic Kevin Falcon and the slimey Gordon Campbell. Is it just me or does Gordon Campbell remind you of a person, most of know one, who will say something to your face and laugh about you or tell stories about you behind your back? He is the ultimate and worst stereotype of a used car salesman with no integrity. Kevin Falcon on the other hand is a moron, did anyone watch voice of BC last week? Mr. Falcon said that two of his political heroes were Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher?!? I don't know why anyone would choose Ronny Raygun when you have Bush Junior freely available. Whatever happened to the Liberal party anyway, when did they actually become the conservative party, and what does that actually make the conservative party? It's no wonder voter turnout is so low. I honestly don't know how people like Kevin Falcon and G-Cam can look themselves in the mirror, they are not Liberals in any shape or form. I will never ever vote Conservative in my life, people decide their political affiliations early in life, one should hope, and stick with them. Sure their can be some crossover, for example you could have a Conservative party with some Liberal leanings but they would still be a conservative party. Anyway my point is that Kevin Falcon is an idiot and will do whatever he's told, and really when it comes down to it he wouldn't be capable of making the decision on his own because he doesn't have a spine. He is a poly-sci graduate who can't decide what his true colours are, are they Liberal, Reform, Conservative, Alliance, Illuminati, Facist, KKK? (can anyone think of more?) I'm Kevin Falcon, yes I'm the real Falcon All you other Kevin Falcons are just imitating So won't the real Kevin Falcon please stand up, please stand up, please stand up? (hum to the tune of "The Real Slim Shady")

Tha geek, the bc liberal party became a neoconservative party when it wes treacherously highjacked from gordon wilson, by a prearranged massive phone in vote. It temporarily became a quasi-liberal party when gordon liar ran for the last provincial election as a moderate. Pertinate quotes from gordo:"I do not believe in tearing up contracts....No. I have no plans to change welfare rates or to attack the poor, I promise all HEU workers that their jobs are safe..." etc, etc, doesn't bother the good folks of west van, though, does it, their children didn't just get a third of their food budget slashed, careful greens don't let this "man," or his ilk into your party or you'll find yourself moving even further to the right, yeah, kit, I try and forget about john reynolds whenever possible, who just characterized dosanjh's health minister cabinet post "as appeasing the socialists...." oh, those damned federal liberals, will they never stop their appeasement of socialists, what's next, changing the name of the montreal canadiens, to the montreal che gueveras?...the mind reels, the stomach churns, and people when they become neoconservatives seem to lose at least 30 points off trheir iq, along with their humanity, still no denials from the gutless west vanners....

but I do agree that the government should perhaps invest in rail infrastructure. there are two main problems here: 1) There's currently only on track; you need to lay another track to run in both directions I don't actually see where to do this - the track currently sits between the highway and the ocean, with no room to widen. This track also carries a pretty significant chunk of freight, which is going to make scheduling an issue. So you probably need to lay two new tracks. 2) I don't think high speed would work on the current route? I've taken the BC Rail train service and it's pretty slow - certainly not as fast as a bus to Whistler. The track is twisty, and not conducive to a "high speed" train service. So we're back to two new tracks - and where are we going to put those? Right through Garibaldi Provincial Park? I'd like to see a forward looking government investigate this option more fully though; it would be nice.

Anyone interested in this issue should have a look at today's editorial page in the Vancouver Sun. Kevin Falcon has written a letter about the highway and it's a load of crap of course. If safety was such a major concern of our transportation minister wouldn't he have taken the BC Ferries safety report more seriously? Furthermore if safety was of such a high concern some form of mass transit should have been looked at, when was the last time anyone got hurt on the skytrain or a city bus due to a traffic accident. I'd much rather be in the larger vehicle smashing through Honda Civic's than in a Honda Civic. No instead we get a faster, wider highway so that the Meercedes' and BMW's can get to Whistler 20 mins quicker. Mr. Falcon also claims that he made the decision, sorry but I'm calling bullshit, he doesn't have that authority or the nerve. This decision came from the top.

Thanks, 'Tha Geek'. You have good insight into these 'characters'. Regarding your question: "Whatever happened to the Liberal Party?", perhaps I have the answer: What happened to the so-called B.C. Liberals is the same thing that happened to the B.C Social Credit Party in its final years. In both cases the decisions are and were being made by a small group of 'bag men' and backroom boys both Liberals and Conservatives; decisions are made not by the rank and file of the party membership but rather by these individuals and what is in their best interests. Gordon Campbell (and Ken Dobell, who is Gordon's 'extension') is their 'tool' and when he falls, they will prop up the next frontman to carry out their bidding, once again. When something that the government is pushing doesn't make sense, like the highway all in the name of a two week sporting event,you KNOW there is another agenda that serves this group of bag men. Could it be the major landholders interests along the Sea - to -Sky corrider up to Whister? Do some research and then decide. They are a closed circle and are closely associated in their business networks. Make no mistake,they are controlling the Olympics for their own vested interests; not for the good of the athletes who are left out in the cold, struggling to make ends meet wondering if they can even afford to attend the Olympics. Something is terribly wrong with this picture. It is important for people to firstly, understand what is happening in the shadows and secondly, it is important for people to speak out with the facts. Unless people have the courage to speak up, nothing much will change. "THE POWER OF ONE IS GREAT. IT BECOMES THE POWER OF MANY. It is wrong that M.L.A.'s forget this basic truth when they know in their won conscience that ethics/ the best interests of their constituents are no longer being carried out. What do you think?

Thanks, 'Tha Geek'. You have good insight into these 'characters'. Regarding your question: "Whatever happened to the Liberal Party?", perhaps I have the answer: What happened to the so-called B.C. Liberals is the same thing that happened to the B.C Social Credit Party in its final years. In both cases the decisions are and were being made by a small group of 'bag men' and backroom boys both Liberals and Conservatives; decisions are made not by the rank and file of the party membership but rather by these individuals and what is in their best interests. Gordon Campbell (and Ken Dobell, who is Gordon's 'extension') is their 'tool' and when he falls, they will prop up the next frontman to carry out their bidding, once again. When something that the government is pushing doesn't make sense, like the highway all in the name of a two week sporting event,you KNOW there is another agenda that serves this group of bag men. Could it be the major landholders interests along the Sea - to -Sky corrider up to Whister? Do some research and then decide. They are a closed circle and are closely associated in their business networks. Make no mistake,they are controlling the Olympics for their own vested interests; not for the good of the athletes who are left out in the cold, struggling to make ends meet wondering if they can even afford to attend the Olympics. Something is terribly wrong with this picture. It is important for people to firstly, understand what is happening in the shadows and secondly, it is important for people to speak out with the facts. Unless people have the courage to speak up, nothing much will change. "THE POWER OF ONE IS GREAT. IT BECOMES THE POWER OF MANY. It is wrong that M.L.A.'s forget this basic truth when they know in their won conscience that ethics/ the best interests of their constituents are no longer being carried out. What do you think?

You make a good point, Donna. The proof will be when Harper gets his orders from Rye and Baloney and then throws that out as the democratic policy of the Conservative Party when thier policy convention takes place later this year. Is the Conservative Party of Canada actually soliciting opinions from the grassroots as to what they should be all about? I have yet to hear of any such move.

Great points by all above. I agree, Donna, there is much going on in the shadows and it has nothing to do with the Olympics. When Jimmy Pattison is hosting George Bush senior and ex Prime Minister John Major on his yacht it is more than about fishing. Pattison has become Campbell's biggest cheerleader as of late and I think plays a much bigger part in the Americanization of BC than is at first obvious.

Good comments, Donna and Keirnan. It is all about real estate and developers: G. Campbells first "occupation" remember? Jimmy Pattison also sure knows that even an ex-political pit bull won't by biting his hand at any time soon, or commenting on how he manages his business/political affairs. I do doubt, however, that athletes are out in the "cold" (well, perhaps because it's a winter "olympiad"). This Olympic thing is an absolute and total crock, with all the Athletigencia and "sport" narcissism. This is supposedly an exercise about "play" - you know, one plays a game with people. Were children laugh, and learn how to play together and build motor and social skills. If I hear another Pollyanna suggest...Olympic competition automatically equal "peace" - I might just gag: Have a peek at the 1936 Olympics, and the fascism that so-called "elite sport" is underpinned by. Look the security budget for these elite business "games" to happen. And who's pocket it comes from.

"Athletes" are treated like national special poodles like those at a posh showroom. Well, showrooms of that kind come with a price at many levels. Drive the developers will right through West Van (and whatever "ecological reserves"; damn those crocodile tears, steady as she goes. The close clan of the Fraser "Institute" will have gotten their development permits "ready, set, stamped" - long before anyone gets to a starting line.

regarding rail infrastructure: Studies have been done on the feasibility of re-introduced rail service (including high speed) along the sea to sky route. Although some of the options called for track improvements (straightening, tunnels, tilting, etc.), I don't think any of them required a whole new line of track. The main problem as I see it with these reports is that all the options studied rail service from Pacific Station (Main and Terminal) instead of using the North Van terminal. This resulted in additional costs and travel time (as much as 40 minutes). I think we should use existing public transit to get people to North Van and have them take the train from there. Translink is already planning on the purchasing an additional sea bus and the sea bus only takes 15 minutes. Another option is high-speed ferry service from downtown Vancouver to Squamish where there is than a direct connection to a high-speed train to Whistler.

On the train issue. There is no need for double track to Whistler. Double track is necessary for high population intercity use a la Boston-Washington or Montreal-Windsor. Minor improvements such as some curve realigning, medium speed passing tracks, upgraded signalling, and Talgo trainsets (Vancouver-Portland type already in use) would achieve 6000 riders per day. This is more than enough for the Olympics with the added advantage that rail use can continue afterwards without the destruction caused by the highway to scenic areas. Trip times can around 100 minutes North Van to Whistler. This was never even given a second of serious thought because it didn't suit the powers-that-be agendas. And we'll all be the poorer for it.

Whatever happened to responsibility? The land the farmers had before the british properties enclave was built was operated and owned by people who lost it because they were interned in camps during ww2, not being able to pay the taxes in internment many lost their farms, and all lost the capability to be self sufficient in foodstuffs. Of course the losers will never get the property back [ some what like the "Elgin Marbles"] . Canada is a very cruel place don't expect any empathy from west van residents, they are winners who expect all others to pay for their roads and they will succeed again to do exactly what they want ,the governors of the province can count on their votes.