If this incident had

If this incident had occurred...

THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN DELETED FOR BEING DEROGATORY TOWARDS A PEOPLE. WOODY, YOU ARE ON NOTICE TO KEEP YOUR COMMENTS SUBSTANTIVE AND FREE FROM SUCH DEROGATORY REMARKS. -- TYEE EDITOR

Scarves

The problem is not new, ages ago it was the resentment of new immigrants wearing their "lederhosen" in public, for instance.
The difference once again, is when religion gets involved!
Religious knives or headscarves it make no difference, what it tells us, is that somehow "they" are not willing to try to integrate into society, the way that the lederhosen boys eventually did.
Again, ages ago, new immigrants would try to speak english in public places, because they realized that it can be construed as offensive to speak in a language the average person do not understand!
It is all a matter of willingness to integrate, rather than wanting the new country to adapt to your culture!

You have my apologies.

You have my apologies. I never realized that by mentioning the province of Quebec that it would be considered as derogatory.
I will remove myself from posting on the Tyee site.

Safety Issue--No Religion Involved

My understanding is that the referee, himself a moslem, required the removal of the headscarf out of safety concerns, and in particular a concern that the girl could be choked or stranged. Perhaps we should defer to his understanding of the safety issue, paricularly when courts have been so vigilant to impose liability.

As an aside, isn't there something bizarre about a girl who decides--at the age of 9--that moslem morality requires her to cover her body from male eyes? The Koranic surah which requires modest dress among women also admonishes them, in addition, to make no eye contact with men who are not their relatives or husbands, and not to behave in any way which would attract male attention. It seems to be that if she were sincere about these beliefs, she wouldn't be playing soccer in front of a crowd. By the way, what 12 year old needs to shield her modesty from male eyes, hmmmm????

Maybe I could rephrase all of that by asking "why should I change safety rules to accomodate your rather idosyncratic interpretation of religious rules".

Sean Orr

What about a chain with a cross on it? That would be a choking hazard. And what about a sikh's turban? That would just plain be hard to get off a good header.

Fifa allows headscarfs in Iran, Palestine, Pakistan, why not Quebec? I think the reason there is a bit of a protest is because a Quebec town recently passed laws banning elements of sharia law. Oh and we're sort of at war with a bunch of muslim countries.

Woody

Hey man, don't go!
We all realize that Tyee has a problem accepting certain point of view.
Rephrase your writing call it keebec instead of Quebec, whatever it takes to make them print your point of view!
We are loosing too many good posters here, don't let them win!

Crosses on chains not allowed either...

Sean, I understand it has been practice to ask players to remove crucifixed for years as a potential safety hazard, and nobody has attempted to exploit or "racialize" the issue. We allow referees to make decisions on safety, and his call is entitled to a certain amount of deference, at that's just how the world works. Isn't there something just odd about this in-your-face-insistence of a 12 year old to iject religion into what is an ordinary safety issue.

Dunno Percy

Isn't in-your-face agressiveness the sine qua non of success and status in this society?

It sure seems so to me. Deference to authority is a thing of the past my friend.

Sean Orr

I stand corrected

Woody

I'd be interested in your comment if you cared to send it to me, without prejudice.

a_p_paul@yahoo.ca

give me a few days

Hi Zalm, give me a few days, I want to see what occurs here,in addition Im just starting the process for a second “E” mail address. I have your address file.

Woody

...hang in there, woody.

Banishing people and thought processes is no victory for freedom of speech.

Let everyone's voice be heard..then let us weigh the validity of the arguments, wrestle with the ideas expressed, and decide for ourselves what is worthy of consideration and what is not...what is of value and what is not.

And this is what stupid disagreements can lead to

March 2, 2007
2 Iraqi Soccer Players Killed in Front of Crowd
By ALISSA J. RUBIN

BAGHDAD, Mar. 2 — Two soccer players were murdered in front of their teammates in Ramadi, witnesses said, and a group of Interior Ministry employees were abducted in Diyala province as brutal sectarian violence continued to rage across much of Iraq.

Witnesses said that the masked gunmen who shot the two soccer players execution-style accused the two men of collaborating with a Sunni group with ties to the American occupation authorities.

As the sun set on Thursday, three cars carrying 10 men drove up to a community playground a few hundred feet from Ramadi’s main government building, where a friendly soccer match was underway between two neighborhood teams. The men poured out of the cars and seized the two players — Muhammad Hammed Nawaf and Muhammad Meshaan, both in their 20s.

The assailants tied the players’ hands and tried to drag them toward the cars, but the players resisted and struggled.

“Muhammad tried to run away, but he stumbled on a rock, fell on the ground, and the armed men shot him dead at once,” said Khalid Al-Ghargholi, the manager of the Ramadi team, speaking of Mr. Meshaan. “They started yelling, ‘This is the destiny of anyone who works with secret police.’ ”

Mr. Ghargholi said that the gunmen were referring to the Salvation Council of Anbar, a group led by a Sunni sheik, Abdul Sattar Buzaigh al-Rishawi, who has opposed armed groups in the area and has ties with the Iraqi government and the Americans.

After his teammate was killed, Mr. Nawaf challenged the men to free him. “He said, ‘If you have anything against me, shoot me, but if not, leave me alone,’ ” Mr. Ghargholi related.

Spectators at the soccer match froze, fearing for their own lives, as the gunmen grabbed the two players, according to Mr. Nawaf’s father, Hameed Nawaf Al-Zuali. “They killed them before the audience,” he said through tears, “and nobody moved to help them.”

Maj. Tareq Yussef of the Ramadi police corroborated the witnesses’ reports and said, “The killers are from Ramadi for certain.” It was not clear whether there would be any effort made to apprehend them.

Revenge was the stated motive in the kidnapping of 18 employees of the Iraqi Ministry of Interior in Diyala Province.

A Sunni Arab militant group called the Islamic State of Iraq posted a statement on a militant web site today claiming responsibility for the kidnappings, and said they were in retaliation for the rape of a Sunni Arab woman by members of the Shiite-dominated police force. The group demanded that the government immediately turn over the men responsible for the rape and free all Sunni women prisoners.

The web posting included a photo that showed the 18 men, blindfolded and with their hands apparently tied behind their backs. Seven wore Iraqi army uniforms.

Late in the day, the group announced that it would kill the men because the Iraqi government had failed to meet its demands.

The Interior Ministry said that the bodies were found today of 14 police officers who disappeared late Thursday as they traveled from Baqouba to Khalis. It was unclear whether the 14 were among the group of 18 abductees claimed by the militant group, or represented a separate incident.

Diyala has become a center of the sectarian conflict in Iraq, especially in the days since Iraqi and American forces began a stepped-up effort to secure Baghdad. Some 42 Americans have been killed in Diyala in the last six months, in contrast with just two over the six-month period before that, according to icasualties.org, which tracks military deaths by province.

The mass kidnapping is the latest incident in a long-running and bloody battle between Sunni Arab insurgents and gangs, who effectively control much of Diyala, and the Shiite militias and Shiite-dominated Iraqi security forces, which the insurgents regard as one and the same.

Diyala’s population of about 1.4 million is half Sunni Arab, but the levers of power are controlled by Shiites who, according to American military officials, have made plain their intention to hold sway over the strategic province permanently.

Fighting near the largely Sunni city of Falluja continued today, and a car bomb detonated near a used-car market in the Shiite-dominated eastern side of Baghdad killed 4 and injured 20.

Two soldiers and their Iraqi interpreter who were attached to Multinational Division Baghdad died today when a roadside bomb exploded as they searched for improvised explosives on a heavily traveled route to the northwestern part of the capital.

These events, as well as signals of likely resistance to the new Baghdad security plan in the largely Shiite, densely populated Sadr City neighborhood, emphasized again the difficulties that Iraqis and Americans face in trying to bring even a semblance of stability to the populous central swath of the country.

Zalm said to Woody

Zalm said to Woody,

Zalm, I going to pass on your invite. Its pointless to involve anyone else in this discussion. To draw anyone else into this, would only muddy the waters. Im certainly not going to let this little spat consume my life. The Tyee made their ruling , I made my statement . That’s it, life goes on. I sure that Lynn and G West would agree.

We all agree that young

We all agree that young people should be able to socialize and compete in environments that are equal and free from harassment. But I'm puzzled as to why this should be an issue of discrimination. My family is intermarried with Arabs, and I've spent lots of time in the middle east. As far as I know, neither culture nor religion requires the wearing of headscarf by pre-pubescent girls. If they choose to do so, it is not a matter of faith, but choice. Because a twelve-year-old girl insists this is a matter of religion, does not make it so. Since this controversy began, FIFA has clarified that headscarves are not permitted under international rules for safety reasons. There can be no accommodation for safety, and surely if this girl were around heavy machinery, we would rightly insist that she remove a headscarf to protect herself. Canada has an (how shall I describe this) "extreme safety" culture, with little tolerance for risks, no matter how small. I don't think this is a discrimination issue at all, and I can't see why anyone would make it so.

But I'm waiting for the Doukhobors to pop up and insist on the right to play soccer in the nude....hee hee.

Interesting post, G West. Societies that place religios sectarianism over the common good often end up killing each other.

G West

Your quotation of that news story points out what happens when a culture (in this case, Iraq) gives *too* much respect to its religious leaders.

Thus, are we stumping for a secular culture? I know that's what *I* want, being a left coast urbanite raised to admire the Star Trekian non-sectarian, one-world utopia.

But that's my bias. For all I know, to the genuinely religious mind, the sectarian conflict in Iraq exacerbated by the US may be a wonderfully happy thing. After all, they are martyrs, going to heaven. They scream with delight!

Integration good, method unclear

I don't see that banning headscarfs or other religious symbols (Percy: it's religious if they say it is religious -- that's how I feel about my Star Trek arrowhead pin) outright is a useful tactic. It just encourages "free thinking" defiance. More to the point, imagine the beating that 9-year-old kid is going to get when she tells daddy that the school made her take it off. They might have to chop her clit off twice.

But integration, now... yes, the dreaded concept of assimilation and melting pot... that's different. I think you can propagandize effectively, if not uniformly. Lots of people still chain-smoke, but they are widely considered to be morons.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
I would put very little or possibly no credence in what G West says .I have just discovered on Boy Trouble site, that he has been login in and posting under at least two different names through out the entire Tyee site. G West and Alcibiades are one and the same. Following after my comment I will post his admittance and comment. Nightbloom, to whom I apologize to for having been duped by this phony and for having him exposed. One other matter G West Im going to point out ,you stated on the Boy Trouble site
The editor of this place has just warned (this very morning) another long-time violator of the rules here that he/she has gone over the line.
1. You can check it out on the headscarf thread if you haven't already.
People from the left, the right, from Quebec, France, America, women, people of different sexual orientations and religions all deserve to be treated with respect and - at a minimum - tolerance. I'd actually prefer a little empathy and I'd even extend it to folks who teach gender studies and feminist philosophy in the academy.
It was you who had that comment that I made censured , you make it very clear in your above comment that Quebec are hands off, but no mention of Alberta or its citizens which in my view has been slighted many times on the Tyee site. Before you were G West and Alcibiades your “nom de plume’ was Allan. I know as you both have the same MO. You feel pretty smug don’t you, both you and the Tyee making all us look like fools, that we are.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN (CONTINUED)

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN (CONTINUED)

nightbloom - for the last time
G West
I have done exactly that. Read what I posted at the top of this thread. Read what I wrote to David Beers. I've written him another letter this morning. The dates I gave on this site are accurate and they reflect the only two identities I have ever posted under at this site or anywhere else for that matter.
I'm more than willing to share my real identity with you if you care to reply to the email address I posted yesterday - and that applies to anyone else who has a problem with what I've done.
Period. I explained why I did it - you can disagree with my reasoning if you like. I never once denied I was both Alcibiades and G West. In addition, I still maintain if you'd looked at what I'd written closely you'd have known it too. They are, unquestionably, the production of the same mind – just as I intended them to be.
I don't believe my actions were dishonorable at all, but that's between me and my conscience. As to what I've owned up to here, don't blame anyone else for their involvement - it was me and me alone and that's the whole story. I had my reasons and I think they were good ones. Period. As for the two years, you apparently can’t count.
As I mentioned above here, Alcibiades first post was the same day that label was registered, March 3, 2007 – one year ago today. It has been an interesting year. I’ve learned a lot about human nature and the way people – even anonymously – treat each other.
G West and Alcibiades are all me - and only me and no one else - ever. So stop blaming anyone else - there is no one else involved - never has been. I’m sorry if anyone is hurt or disappointed – but that’s the end of it.
Now for the last time let it go. I have explained my actions for the last time. You may not respect me because of the way you see the world - I can live with that. You are neither my mother nor my confessor.

G WEST said, Now, how in the world did we get into the subject

G West, don’t be so naive, you remember, you had my comment censured... Why,? because I was making a statement in favor of an 11 year old child, Who I felt and believed was in her rights. Regardless this whole site has been sham, your exposed for the phony you are .Good Bye

errr.....

Oh, yeah, I remember Allan! Combative fellow.

Ron Erwin is IAMC...is Coyote also Kootcoot?

Are there actually only about three people posting here?