gkam,

get your head out of the sand. i would hardly call those environmentalists, and socialists "professional". I would call them insulting.

that being said, climate change is a reality and it will greatly impact Canada - probably within our lifetime too.

we have to do something, however i am not sure kyoto is the answer. while i understand the end goals, i don't understand the means and methods of getting there.

i have heard from people i consider pretty reasonable that kyoto is really not all that feasible. secondly, you can't have meaningful climate change unless the USA and China are on board. Canada, Japan, New Zealand and other countries can eliminate greenhouse gas emissions - but it won't have an impact as China/USA represent a half of the world's output.

kyoto is great in that it is creating dialogue, and there is a growing resolve to see change.

however, rather than throwing billions at unproven science, lets create a plan that involves American and China - and develop something.....

As I have said earlier, up until an environmental 9-11, deluded fools like Captitalism will blah blah blah....

Looking forward to the day when Capitalism and others of his/her ilk will cry: Why was nothing done about it!

FOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Jeez, capitalism, you're slipping. You forgot to blame the "lefties" ! Campbell and the Fraser Inst. won't be pleased !!!

Although you did blame the "socialists", so they may just forgive you this time, but don't let it happen again, or they'll take your wealth creating, trading privileges away.

We can see the effects of the climate change here in the Cariboo, in the usually harsher climates, with the pine forests all red and dead, having been killed by the bugs and just waiting for them to mutate and start going after the spruce and fir.

We used to have -45 C every winter, and I think, it was '81 when we had an official -53C. but haven't had even a -40C since 1995.

At that time we had a huge tent caterpillar infestation for 2 years, that ate up all the leaves on the aspens. Everything was covered thickly with the worms, the fenceposts, walls, hydro poles, the roads were under a thick black mess of squashed worms.

They were wiped out by the cold in '95, but if it had happened a year or two later, we wouldn't have had any deciduous trees left, as they can recover only once, or twice, and the whole are would have become uninhabitable.

Now, since these idiots sold BC Rail, and CN cut back on the trains, the roads are filled with trucks carrying lumber South and they're planning a wealth creating super highway on the present 97 route.

This is what they call "bottom up" economy, with the powers going wild with resource waste to create wealth.

I just got the news from Europe, now that they got rid of the leftie, pinko, commie socialists and installed wealth creating capitalist governments, the EU is also switching to wealth creating road transport, with a new system of wealth creating autobahns all over the Continent.

Ed Deak. Big Lake.

Capitalism/Maybelle
As per usual, the information you rely on seems to come from drunken friends at the craps table. The science is proven, although the Bush White House forces its employees to lie about it and downplay its seriousness and of course, there are always a few cranks around to appeal to the ‘flat earth’ fringe like yourself. Canada won't be eliminating greenhouse gases anytime soon and one of the reasons we haven't done as well in reducing CO2 emissions as the Americans have is the simple fact that Alberta is now polluting for the US by proxy in the tar sands. After Prince Ralph's disgusting
performance of pandering to the US Congress and Dick Cheney yesterday, I don't expect things will get better any time soon.

But suck it up, fella, that's what you and the other dinosaur capitalists seem to want. I noticed you going to bat for the US car industry the other day. Have another one, at the rate GM and Ford are running themselves into the ground building garbage vehicles for overweight Americans and Canadians Toyota and Honda will soon be able to buy the wreckage and scrap the whole corrupt operation. You don’t even know that one of the main reasons why Japanese carmakers prefer to locate their plants here in Canada is because Canadian workers are actually more productive and better educated than their US counterparts are. As a matter of fact the same thing is true of Big 3 (that’s a laugh in itself these days, by the way) plants in Canada when compared to American operations. Canadian workers are better, more productive and they create products with fewer measurable flaws. Decent affordable health care and pension plans aren’t the only thing bringing down American auto operations – far from it.

Climate change isn't the only thing you don't understand.

Oh, by the way, good luck on that project of convincing the Bush White House of anything, other than the fact that gay marriage is a cutting edge issue. What a joke you are! Bush is still looking for WMD, don't you know. I noticed the Supreme Court dealt him another stiff one this morning too.

Alcibiades:

Firstly, I never went to bat for the US car industry. I was merely stating fact, that Toyota does not prefer to produce its vehicles in Canada. The vast majority of their NA auto production is in America - and they have set up shop in places with relaxed labour laws like Texas and Alabama. Toyota is no friend to the little guy! They are a money making machine!!!

Secondly - I agree that change is needed, and I am not pandering to some right wing ideology. Rather, I am trying to be pragmatic in dealing with the circumstances.

The worlds biggest polluters are not involved in this accord, nor are any of the emerging economies. Kyoto is very expensive and based on theory.

My idea (which again would never fly due to business interests) would be to impose pollution taxes on imports from China, and other manufacturing powerhouses until they meet global standards. Again, the USA is needed in this process.

On a micro level, it is like poverty. The City of Prince George, could build housing for each and every homeless person in the city. However, this would have zero impact on homeless rates throughout the country. You would need the big cities like Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal on board.

Now, Kyoto bringing about dialogue, which is a good thing. However, we need a social shift in the way we think. People ARE NOT informed on this issue.

People hear about global warming, and they hear about Kyoto - and they think they are progressive by supporting the latter.

You lefties are full of great ideologies, however there are many moving parts which prevent your ideas from ever becoming reality.

Hurray for wealth creation! capitalism, finally blamed the lefties again! Good God man, don't scare us by forgetting your wealth creating duty !

Ed Deak.

You capitalists, maybelle, don't even read. And apparently you're not aware that both Toyota and Honda actually find their plants here in Canada are much more productive and cost effective than the ones they operate in the USA (and not just because of health care).

I could post the references, but you’re not worth the effort.

These companies are successful because they are not phony capitalist shell games and they understand the vital role workers and a quality, reliable product that consumers want to buy and keep play in their success. Of course they will continue to operate and build vehicles in the US - they have a huge market there to respond to - but that doesn't mean they will make the kind of abysmal mistakes that the Big 3 have done over the years by turning huge successful companies into basket cases while overpaying their executives, selling off their core competencies to the highest bidder and cheating their long-suffering employees and pensioners.

Those who talk about honouring a contract as a vital part of business ethics are promulgating another modern version of a tooth fairy tale.

You have neither ideas nor even a particularly consistent philosophy - other than that of the drunken gambler

Coming from a real democratic socialist country like Japan, it is not surprising that Honda and Toyota would beat the socks off GM and Ford.

Capitalism, those at the forefront of sounding the alarm on climate change include virtually all the top scientists in the field, so yes, they are professionals.

You do have a point about Kyoto being in deep trouble, thanks to overt or covert undermining by everyone from Paul Martin to Bush, and with the latest blow thanks to Germany's new right-wing gov't. And I agree that at least it's got a lot more people talking--although high gas prices are probably doing more to raise awareness among Americans than anything else.

Your suggestion of import taxes linked to pollution sounds intriguing but if Kyoto won't fly even after we've almost all agreed to it, that certainly won't fly in the face of WTO, NAFTA, etc and the same cast of rogues in charge who are determined to go to bat for short-term business interests.

We do need to honestly confront the barriers to Kyoto (and its limitations -- it's just the first step, after all)and to generating the necessary political will for meaningful change. And, yes, that will require getting the US and China on board. But it calls for strategic thinking -- the way forward is probably not intuitive or direct and the steps that will end up being critical may be those we least expect.

Name -

Great comment, and I agree entirely. Most people on this board see a post from a conservative and immediately dismiss it...

The scientists aren't sounding the alarm, there are merely presenting the facts. Those sounding the alarm are those with a far left agenda - i.e. lefties and environmental groups that are out of touch - ideologically driven.

I am sure that if everybody in the world abided by Kyoto, emissions would decrease substantially. However, the major polluters are not, so we have to work within their framework. High gas prices are a great start, but so is the war in Iraq. Americans do NOT like the fact that their oil is coming from the middle east.

All I am saying, is Canada can jump on the Kyoto bandwagon all they want, but we need China, India and the USA at the table.

This post comes from somebody that is very concerned about global warming. I agree with the scientists. I want us to take action.

So Maybelle, you didn't post this comment? And you're really a closet environmentalist.

Baloney! As always, you post nothing but garbage and hot air - stuff you don't think about and later find yourself being forced to recant. That's what happens to people who neither read, not think very deeply.

Just like your 'economics' three months ago.

Capitalism: "All I am saying, is Canada can jump on the Kyoto bandwagon all they want, but we need China, India and the USA at the table.

This post comes from somebody that is very concerned about global warming. I agree with the scientists. I want us to take action."

So why not lead the world? I know, why should we be responsible citizens of the world if no one else is doing it! Or how can we sell more oil & gas to the U.S. and China if we are trying to reduce emissions?

Ass...e

I hope

freebear,

i would love to lead the world, but we will never be in the position to do so. we are small and remote, we have no military and aren't really a player.

i think we can be influential and i belive that kyoto is creating good dialogue. however, it is ideologically driven and lacks practicality.

we don't operate in an ideal world.

why not sell oil and gas - if we don't, other countries will benefit. Higher oil means more incentive to find alternative energy sources. That is the beauty of capitalism....it all works itself out in the end!!

unproven science!!!!!
it's rather elementary actually.
The sun radiates the earth continually with a vast amount of energy and in order for the biosphere to maintain an equilibrium this energy must be disipated. Weather systems serve this function BUT a huge amount of the sun's radiant energy is also re-emitted from the earths surface back into outerspace.
Enter carbon dioxide (and other greenhouse gases) which absorb this surface reflected radiation and basically convert it into the aggregate kinetic energy of particles in the biosphere (i.e. the atmosphere and oceans) Hence the term "global warming".
Since the energy which used to be reflected back into space can no longer escape it remains here and melts our glaciers and causes ever more powerful wether phenomena because this energy MUST go somewhere.

More baloney from Maybelle:

From Capitalism:

Actually, home heating is reported to produce more greenhouse gases than autobiles, or manufacturing.

What we need is a tax on people like Capitalism, we need him to pay his full ride like a real man, not like some welfare business suckling off the public trough.

Hey Cap, are you willing to pay the grams CO2 per kilometer tax on your land yacht like they do in the EU ?

How about a grams of CO2 per BTU tax on your luxury crib ?

Naturally you will be eager to pay polution tax on your purchase of cheap chinese shit at walmart.

C'mon, pony up, it won't work without the USA and Capitalism participating.

gas SHOULD cost 10 dollars a litre. (or more)
that would change some attitudes and shake some heads out of the sand!

jwstewart:

the rich pay enough taxes alreay, why force them to pay more. give it a break, people need incentives to work hard, create jobs and prosper.

again - full of ideologies. tax, tax, tax....

if you taxed me less, i would invest less, in turn i would make less. as a result my taxable base would decrease and i would ultimately pay less taxes.

figure it out...my tax bill has increased significantly since the BC Libs came into power. However, my income has increased more.

so - i am paying more taxes now than I have ever paid before...isn't this a good thing???

greedy jerk

Capitalism
The rich pay nowhere nearly enough taxes. If they make capital gains and dividend income they get even more unfair breaks - if their parents or grandparents made the money they have a sinecure.

Your 'capitalist' ideology wants nothing but more 'breaks' for the rich who are already getting a free ride from their friends in government now. The Carter commission on Taxation pointed out all of this decades ago but no government has had the jam to confront their buddies in the banks and corporations to bring some real fairness and logic to the tax system. Your logic is faulty and so is your reasoning. High tax countries like those in Northern Europe have fairer and more egalitarian societies and better outcomes for all people, not just the rich you’re always apologizing for and pleading for more special deals to let them keep their stolen money. If you're paying more tax today then you're making a lot more money than you did 6 years ago and you know it if you understand anything about marginal tax rates - simple and just - but not just enough if you can afford to head south to Vegas and gamble while some folks can't feed and clothe their kids properly.

Suck it and be a mensch – I know you love your money, it’s just too bad you don’t love your fellow man a little more. You’re no hero and you’re certainly no one to feel the least bit sorry for. In fact, quite the contrary.

BTW – I hope you lose a bundle.

Capitalism, it's not just about more tax/less tax. That's simplistic. It goes back to being strategic, like I said. Start with something as simple as using tax policy to influence choices and behaviour--e.g. higher taxes for high-emission activities, tax credits for cutting emissions at home, on the road or in industry.

Kyoto itself was a nod to the potential of harnessing market forces--e.g. emissions trading. But those who don't want to compete, along with their political servants, are doing their best to subvert that before it ever truly gets off the ground. (Funny how the most vocal free market champions are often the players with their very own pocket politicians ensuring that they don't have to compete on a level playing field, huh?)

And unfettered capitalism doesn't create utopia--quite the contrary! A total free-for-all is chaotic and destructive for all but the top dogs and even most capitalists understand that they benefit from a higher hand (govt, courts, taxes) providing order, infrastraucture and stability. What does it benefit you, Capitalist, if market forces are driving you into your own inevitable self-destruction as you fight ever harder to survive?

Flat-rate tax on gross incomes would put an end top this bickering. Say 5%, right off the top.........

Capitalism

The tax question is simply a method to enforce conservation, since people won't do it on their own. The prices are too low, and the lifestyle is too convenient.

It isn't that you don't pay enough taxes, it's that you don't pay the real cost of your lifestyle. (Me either, in addition to many others)

In fact, we could never pay the real cost of our lifestyle. What will we owe our children whose environment has been decimated, causing them unprecedented levels of allergy, cancer, hunger, etc.?

It's not about money, but it involves money. Money won't buy a solution, but money could be used to stop the problem.

Bang on, name,

Read an interesting article on counterpunch about a book written that detail's Bolivia's fall into pure unfettered capitalism and how every part of the free market that was supposed to operate on behalf of the people creating wealth was actually sold off or stripped and sent to other countries leaving Bolivia with exactly nothing.

There is no place of unfettered capitalism in this world - no place at all. It must always be moderated becasue unbridled competition leads inevitably to monopoly. The book is Benjamin Kohl and Linda Farthing's new monograph, Impasse in Bolivia: Neoliberal Hegemony and Popular Resistance and the article is found at http://www.counterpunch.org/williams06302006.html

I guess you aren't one of the many people laid off after Campbells cuts.

Your reasoning on taxation can be compared to something like this... "Ever since I discovered E at raves, I've been getting laid like crazy. Poison and sex works for me well in terms of feeding my self getting ego mechanisms, so it must be working for everyone."

or in your case more specifically...

"Ever since I discovered the sale and destruction of the environments that sustain life and the governments that promote it, I've made lots of money. Its working for me in what I want, so it must be working for everyone."

Its kind of like looking at pigs at a trough, or what is about to be called the "spun out slut syndrome".

Whether its greed for money, or gluttony for food and pussy or drugs or anything else out there that destroys one's soul, spun out sluts are all the same. Guy, girl, it makes no dif. Coke dealers and oil barons come to mind as the best and worst examples. They are either self centered to the extreme, or have absolutely no recognition or sense of one's self at all.

Anyone who sells their environments, doesn't matter what it is, be it intellectual, or physical (health in all respects), or emotional, or in your case monetary, CAPITALISM, a combo of all three for selfish gain to the cost of everyone else, is part of this syndrome. I'll be rather unkind this time round and call a spade a spade... you know, my personal opinion of you and your posts... just another spun out slut.

What was that? What was your excuse? Everyone else is doing it? Its necessary? I hardly think so. Public opinion will definitely heat up from dummies like yourself who have no accountability to their own actions, including the fallout and consequences of their own investments (other than profits of course).

zalm:

Good link. Bolivia won't be the only south american exploited country to nationalize its assets. Within 2 decades, the majority of south american countries will do the same for precisely the same reasons. My fear, of course, is America's history on foreign policy. Take a country to war or initiate a coup if it nationalizes its assets, (a coup has been done in Canada with Harper, in my opinion, anyone who is aware of the NCC...) to set up a "democracy" that opens up its assets to the "free markets" to be bought out by U.S. corps. The term "empire" suits the U.S. well as this is their strategy. Bolivia is likely headed for a war or a coup if it has assets the U.S. majority shareholders want.

What people don't realize, is that we've sold Canada for the most part except for our essential services, which the Cons want to sell for their directorships and shares. In other words, for a country to sell off its assets, it must have corrupt polititicans. Privatization of essential services, military spending, this current Con government could be more corrupt than Mulroney was. And one thing about names post. He's right about everything except for Martin. Martin signed Kyoto. He didn't have to.

And this thing with Martin beginning Canada's involvement with Afganistan... this current government could have pulled our troops home without so much as a vote. Instead, the Cons are looking at 20 billion is defence spending and a further 11,000 troops sent in by years end. This is hardly something that can be blamed on a former Liberal government. People complain and complain about Martin or Mr. Dithers and for sure, the man wasn't a saint. But the shrub we've got now is far worse.

The possession and concentration of private capital and its resulting power and influence is turning out to be a rather bad thing for the planet earth. Apparently if we don`t agree with this we are lefties? BS.

I always find it amusing when people complain about taxes, but never about the obscene profits, gouging and stealing by a handful of big, oligopolic corporations in control of the world's food, medicine, oil etc.

Some of these outfits, like Nestle, operate under 800 names, Green Giant under 600, Kraft, Heinz etc. under hundreds more. The world's grain supply is controlled by about 5, and so on and on, gaining more power every day with government support, as individual farms and businesses are destroyed.

Yet, our ideologically warped fools call this "bottom up economy", "individual enterpreneurship" and "free enterprise".

Our supermarkets are leapfrogging each other with price increases, but nobody complains. The prices on some food items literally doubled in one year, and 50% is very common, while people bitch about "lefties", unions and "labour bosses". Meanwhile calling some of the biggest thieves "prominent business leaders", who advise governments on "free trade" and "competitiveness".

Sure, how to control the economy and compete to steal more from the sucker public.

Ed Deak.

Excellent points above Ed. That many of these companies, like Archer Daniels Midland (where Warren Buffett’s son Howard was once a vice president and member of the board – when Warren says he doesn’t believe in cronyism do you believe him?) are also crooks and huge recipients of one or another kind of extravagant corporate welfare is something else more members of the public ought to be aware of. A company with whom our former Prime Minister Mulroney was intimately involved after he left Ottawa.

I don't normally recommend the writings of the Cato Institute but this is one case where they do tell an interesting story by James Bovard, for anyone who's interested:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

Kurt Eichenwald’s book The Informant about the price fixing conspiracy at the food company and the executive who cooperated with the FBI in recording over 250 hours of secret video and audio tape is also interesting reading, especially for those naïve individuals around here of neocon stripe who believe that corporate responsibility is not an oxymoron.

Further to the above is the following

http://www.thislife.org/pages/descriptions/00/168.html

This URL has a link to a lengthy real audio clip from NPR for anyone who wants to know a little more about 'corporate' sociopathology and the individual capitalist ‘actors’ who play these roles – guys like Mark Whitacre

One of the most interesting things the program covers is the tape recordings of conversations between the members of the international price fixing cartel (one of the meetings actually occurred in Vancouver); especially noteworthy is a conversation where these corporate thugs reveal their real attitudes toward their customers. Another is just how easily and quickly the crooks from ADM and other international members of the cartel actually went about fixing the price for the Canadian market.

All worshippers at the Capitalist shrine ought to take the time to listen and draw their own conclusions about who their ‘real’ friends are.

"The rich already pay enough taxes." What, not rich enough for a really good accountant?

Absolutely, ADM and it's ilk of international price fixing corporate welfare receiving bloated multinationals are a huge problem for the rest of the world. Unfortunately, many who bow to the capitalist gods really have no clue as to the unbelievably huge web of greed they're woven into. It's true, those who live in the money world rarely see beyond thier own small profit margin to the effects - social, environmental and yes, financial - on the world around them.

What I see is an amazingly short sighted view of global warming as a whole. Like it can wait for y'all to figure this shit out. It isn't waiting, I can assure you of that. While you refuse to do anything until you "think it out" it keeps going. When the government won't start the process by agreeing to work under Kyoto NOW, and think out a better plan while at least DOING SOMETHING, it's clear to see that profit and pleasure come first. When the rich schmuck down the street buys his Hummer instead of something fuel efficient, it's horrifyingly clear that HIS pleasure comes before the world the rest of us live in. When Capitalist says "we don't live in an ideal world" and talks about dialogue instead of action, it's clear that he doesn't live in ANY world but his own.

Yes, that's an ad hominem attack, and I don't condone my own behaviour.

I just cannot believe that anyone is still saying we need to "think about it" or "have a dialogue". Dialogue's done. Planet's pissed. Get yer thumbs out of yer ass*s and TAKE THE BUS.

What is it going to take to make politicians listen? How much closer do we have to get to the abyss? All the money in the world is not going to do us any good if we can't eat the food, drink the water and breathe the air...assuming of course, the planet is still around.

Capitalism- Socialism or any other ism are of no importance anymore. I'm afraid you're too late. The stories of global warming have been around since the early sixties and all of the prophesies made then have come true. Take a look at recent scientific history and perhaps you will stop arguing and start searching for ways to protect yourself and your children. I know that some of you will sneer at "doomsday" scenarios. All the information has been there for a long time but nobody cared, we all wanted to believe that we could have something for nothing, that we could use up as much of the earths resources as we wanted but we were wrong and now we will pay the price or at least our children will. I will soon be leaving this place and missing the worst of it but it make me sad to think of the mess I leave behind. I could have done better and so could you but we didn't. So forget the petty arguements and enjoy life while you can.

You are right COMOX. It does not matter who is stealing from us. Some washed out US politician like Gore, wants to have another life. I tell him get born again, get married again, start workouts, quit smoking take up sex, but do not fool us again. Socialists own the banks and capitalists slave to meet the payrol and pay taxes. Now bankers want Canada to pay Russia billions of dollars for a right to pollute, when the biggest polluters, cooking two billion meals, three times a day, over open pit coal fire, China and India do not give a damn about Kyoto. We already inhale their smoke in North America. Since there are many scientists who believe that Earth is actually cooling down, only oceans are starting to boil because of under the sea level volcanos, I propose to lockup those presumptious eggheads in one room for three days without food, until they agree whether it is warming up or cooling down. Demise of most of the Mayas and Aztex was caused by many years of hot weather, long before bandits from Spain appeared there. Last Ice Age was only about 10,000 years ago. What do we know? Maybe there is another one coming? We can get 2 kilometers of snow in one years from warmed up oceans. No bureaucrats from United Nations could plug all the volcanos, specially those below the surface of the sea. Let's wait and see, before we enrich some Oligarchs in Russia, who already stole billions of dollars from the Russian people.

The current economic system is dependent on growth ad infinitum. Growth within a finite area (Earth) means we're gonna butt up against limits sooner or later. The way I'm reading things, I'm betting on sooner.