Paul

Why not just buy the seal hunt?

hey dude, how was your weekend?
I think I'm the only one left around here who doesn't think George Bush bombed the WTC

Excellent idea, I am amazed that there are people out there who don't believe in the power celebrities have to draw attention to a specific cause. Allthough I suspect if they wern't so damm cute, I doubt as many people would care

You're right, while Paul McCartney is being a dork out there with the seals, it's not an editorialists job to tell them they're not allowed out there or shouldn't get covered, but to explain the misconceptions about the seal hunt and why it should go ahead.

But that's why celebrities, while helping the cause, hurt the truth. They may garner attention, but they steal that attention away from the real ideas and issues at stake. So now everybody's like "stop the seal hunt" and the only reason they can come up with as to why is because Paul McCartney said so.

tessa
you're right, at least nominally, much of the fuss celbrities stir up is about a thousand miles wide and a millimeter deep. Still, I expect every cause is happy to have some of that publicity from time to time - it's just important to realize it won't get the hard work done.

The problem is that some reporters feel that they have become the celebrities, which in turn, makes them part of the news. They feel "how dare some entertainer" get involved with "their" business of shaping the moral fabric of society.

Although I am not a huge fan of hedonistic entertainers telling us how to live our lives, I do appreciate it when a handful of them passionately follow a cause.

Maybe Harper and Williams can find some "stars" willing to wear seal fur while describing the wonderful taste of baby seal burgers.

Oh wait, we don't eat any of the meat.

I think that it's absolutely fine for artists and athletes and other celebrities to use their money and high profiles to support causes in which they believe; no one ever bats an eyelash when money or fame gained from big business, politics or some other venue are used to push a particular effort. I often think that the reason we balk at artists and athletes is because they tend to be fairly new arrivals to the world of wealth, and come from racial and socio-economic strata that we expect to keep quiet on social matters.

All that being said, it enrages me, to no end, that thousands of Palestinian homes can be bulldozed by the Israeli army and nobody hears about it, but a seal gets clubbed and it's front page news. I won't start losing sleep over seals getting clubbed -- no matter how cute they are -- until we've started looking after people in this world. Fifty aboriginal women go missing from the Downtown Eastside, and people don't get up in arms until somebody's using lab rats to do medical tests...

...look "charlesdemers", we pick our battles. There are many things worth fighting for and when you find one, you focus and go. This is one of them...

The seal hunt is a gov't make work program covered in blood. It is time it stopped!!!

Keep up the great work Paul...!!

RTB

It'd be nice if somebody, celebrity or not, would state the case clearly: what to do about the seals? Nothing? Cull at a specific age? What?

If the seal population is decimating what's left of the northern cod fishery, surely we can make a better effort to debate the issue than to harp on about Mme Bardot.

I never tasted seal. Where do you get it ?

How come it's not in Sobeys ? Do I need to sell my shares ?

Is it good with Garlic ? Broiled or BBQ'd ?

What about Sushi Seal ? Maybe we could boost the revenue per pound with some added value ?

I so detest the diversionary tactic of: They should be protesting this situation - or supporting that cause. Who is to say that they are not? Perhaps, more importantly, who is to dictate what one protests?

So many want to kill the messengers

Funny, Paul Watson and I both had the same boss at the hovercraft base in Richmond, he was a seaman on the hovercraft for a short period. I have heard some interesting stories.

I did get a chuckle about the flap caused by the story of Paul planning to buy a sub to use in his protests, the story certainly helped his cause, but had he tried to actually use it, I fear it would have been a one way trip.

I am sure that if Brigitte Bardot showed up on a ice flow, the Newfies one take one look at her face and run in terror. I don't think you could be at sea long enough to take a second look.

Jwstewart
I did have seal flipper pie, an aqquired taste I assure. Think I will stick to the Newfie steak!

Do celebrities support indigenous cultures?

How much poluttion is created to jet McCartney around the world to stage a demonstration?

Does Paul Watson ship run on french fry grease?

Right to Bear:

I agree with you.

I think the problem partly lies with EI workings. If EI were run like a true insurance program there would be much less seasonal work - it would be uneconomic to be a fisherman and/or sealer. These constant claims for EI should be limited or claimants should pay higher premiums etc.

So, the taxpayer ends up subsidizing this slaughter. We would be better off to pay the fisherman/sealers not to fish/cull seals. Better yet, let's better subsidize their relocation to Fort McMoney.

Who buys seal fur anyway? Why don't we ban or at least tax its export?

Paul: Seems to me that McCartneys and Bardot garnered lots of media coverage.

Howw many facts about the issue are misrepresented?

Stories on a supposed boycott of Canadian seafood spoke of a list of businesses boycotting, many of which had no idea they were boycotting!

Again, what does Paul Watson's ship use for energy? I do not think its "green"!

What are music cd's and records (and ode to the Beatles vinyl) made of.

Unless you practice a subsistence livlihood, we are all guilty of harming the planet.

Soon there will be no ice to walk on to kill a seal so......................

paul's dead. this should seal the deal.

If the seal pups looked like giant spiders, none of these celebrities would give a s**t and this hunt/cull wouldn't even be noticed in Europe.

Ms Bardot is a rather controversial figure, not only for her position on animal rights but also for her support of French right-wing extremist Le Pen, as well as her positions on homosexuality, immigration and Islam.

There definitely are events around the world, ecological disasters made by man, that take precidence to seal hunts.

Wars, famines, droughts, these are often within localized environments, same as seal hunts. It is the environments shared by everyone... Global warming will continue to be the number one issue world wide, whether it is yet accepted be so or not. Our global macro environments, Air, Earth, Water, Fire, the environments that sustain all life, and that all life shares, interconnected and substained by life itself... Global warming is the number one issue, even though it is not yet recognized to be so politically, economically, even socially (you know, birth control), and the main issues behind global warming? The human paradigm and its belief systems on all levels, macro and micro.

It has now been predicted that the Northern Cap will be open water in the summers, 15 to 20 years from now. Where are the seals going to breed? Where are the polar bears going to go? Will they survive? Adapt? Who cares, their eating all the fish, right?

We talk about saving fish with seal hunts, knowing full well that these populations are cyclical in nature with predator and prey as checks and balances, knowing full well that cod and salmon stocks have dwindled or disappeared because of our own overfishing and pollution above all, you know, our damage to the environment and then scapegoat seals for dwindled fish stocks. And, if those seal populations ever explode, we'll look the other way on those polar bear hunts from smoking guns in helecopters, cause we are so kind to our environments, don't you know. And we've had such a wonderful history of it.

It shouldn't be all that hard to understand what is really going on. We think a lifetime is long, 75 - 100 years is long, when its really quite short. We have our seasons, from infancy to elder, going through our stages of life, and in this life, we get branded or labelled, or brand ourselves, finding things to do that some of us master and become well known for, things that make us a part of who we are in terms of how we are perceived. But perception is just a part of it.

Ultimately, it is the human paradigm, the human model of reality, that every individual is forced to examine in life. Some of us do it better than others, Are better communicators, better educators, better students, better judges of character than others. Some of us can role play, put ourselves in anothers shoes. Some of us can't. Some of us can understand clearly what this human paradigm really is, this human experience and environments that shape our perception of reality... and some of us can't. Or won't. Because we were never looking for the macro or the micro, never cared for that matter, just cared for the blind version of our small window of reality, because its ours, however unrealistic it might be.

And while we look at celebrities who seem to be better caused with fights against global warming instead of seal hunts, the common denominators are the same. Ignorance. Greed. Pride. Disconnection to the issues and the truth from these three.

Of course celebrities have the right to express their opinions, Paul, bound only by the need not to do irresponsible things like put spikes into trees.

The problem is in assuming that people will not jeer at them. Of course we will. Talent as an entertainer confers no credibility in other fields. When NASA had a problem with the shuttle, it did not turn to James Doohan. When a past-their-prime celebrity discovers a cause, it looks very much like pathetic attempts to retain the public's attention.

.

Well said, Brain. That's the heart of the matter...all the incessant human tampering with the cycles of nature.

Yammer:
Your right, of course, but you still have your U2 Pro Bono's that do well in other spotlights, and celebrities that don't need publicity stunts for the public spotlight. They are under it wherever they go. Sir Paul McCartney and Bardeau don't need the media. They get it regardless.

If I was their PR man, I'd advise against it with other causes superceding it, if causes were on the menu, but you get hounded by media on your mansion, or hounded by media on the ice up North, take your pick. One gets you face to face with sun block and the real issue, global warming, and one gets you obsese from sitting around, eating to many sweets.

I'd go for the education, myself, if I was Paul.

I think that the issue at hand that needs to be stressed isn't the culling of seal pups per se. This whole mess is an indicator of our species' need to not just exterminate the planet's resources (be it animal, mineral, or water), but to kill of any of our competitors to said resources.

Also, I think that celebrities have a moral obligation to raise awareness. Unfortunately, most would rather hear about their extravagances and complain when they get involved in things political.

You're all jerks and I hate you. My opinion is superior to yours, but I won't stoop to explaining it to you without loading it full of caustic smarminess which is sure to undermine any chance of reaching real understanding, so that I can remain secure in the knowledge of my rightness.

And we are paying for it, most of us, without knowing it. Cancer, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, you name it, were paying for it now, or on our way to it, a shortened lifespan due to the same ignorance that breeds "the incessant human tampering with the cycles of nature".

Beats the next few thousand words I could write.

For whatever reason, we humans completely miss it when it comes to mass production in terms of scale and pollution. Consumption is a verb, not a noun. We miss it when it comes to diet and survival of healthy food sources, because we are able to store and preserve it at a great convienience and profit because it is "consumable" and we learn to take it for granted because all we have to do is shop fo it. It is precisely, I might add, what the markets want us to do.

The markets don't want us to question the origins and/or safety of food products. Chemical companies don't want to "educate" the consumer on potential hazards. The less the public knows, the more profitable food manufacturers will be.

Is it the same with oil and gas? Yup! Its the same, for the same reasons. We can't expect oil companies to come up with the alternative to traditional fuels. We can't expect anything from oil companies, but to urge us to "consume oil". They won't be a part of the solution.

And HMO's, won't.

So we trust government to regulate the markets and if governments are corrupted by business and corporate will, then the system begins to break down.

Deregulate, privatize, smaller government... Like GWB says, "Turn our senior citizens pensions into stock portfolio's, legalize watergate and ordinary phone taps, anything goes." and from there, the environments suffer large, if they haven't already. And they have. That's just it. They already have. Large.

Some scientists are chanting a mantra chant, "We've got ten to fifteen years to change, or tip the scales too far and risk a Venus or Mars". And while this is going on, Bush just wiped out the largest natural wildlife park in Alaska for more oil this month.

I don't quite know how to say it. We are corrupt, perhaps the majority of us never mind our leaders. Our ideologies, our motives, its like the only thing that can save us is if humility suddenly becomes profitable, or we can make money from fixing corruption! Lets make money from saving the environment! (what a laugh)

What are we to do, I don't know, because everything we know now, especially economically, is working against the global environments ability to sustain life, some of us obviously don't care, and some of us aren't even aware of how bad the problem really is. We shouldn't be manufacturing anything that isn't safe to overall life on this planet unless it can be reduced to smaller, more managable scales overall and yet, we routinely damage the environment through deforestation, air and water pollution on large scales, increasing this pace of destruction over time with increasing populations and technologies. Its frightening.

Colin,

What the heck does her face have to do with it?

Since this is, I believe, a "text only" message board, I will charitably assume that your face looks better than your backside.

Bucky wrote:

This echoes the words of CODCO's Tommy Sexton:

"If they looked like spiders, would you care?"

Freebear wrote:

Unless you practice a subsistence livlihood, we are all guilty of harming the planet.

Too much information! Too much information!

Rodric wrote:

Precisely.

McCartney almost had his face bitten off by one of the little creatures. Too bad it missed.

Here's the paradox: the sealhunt itself generates marginal return to the economy; however, if you factor in the value of hotel and transportation for protesters (celebrities and others), as well as those who want to see the celebrities, maybe it's the protests which are making the hunt an overall viable economic activity!

funny how you never see those celebrities at those humongous slaughter house that provide billions of hamburgers for the likes of macdonalds.

and i never see bardot walking around in a chicken costume in front of KFC

but if it is cute and cuddly,WATCH OUT.

too bad we could not slaughter all those other animals on the ice floes,turning them red with the blood of millions of butchered animals might wake up the public to the fact that ,we eat meat,LIVE WITH IT WATSON,MCCARTNEY,BARDOT,ET,AL.

when you can feed the world,then come tell us how to live ,when you can solve all of our problems,we just may listen.

http://blog.greglocke.com/coretran-issue2.jpg
This is for all the bleeding hearts that don`t have to eke out a living in Nfld

In fact, the fewer people who eat meat, the easier it is to feed the world's population. And who keeps the human population in check ?
If our numbers keep growing, we too will exceed the ecological carrying capacity of the earth. Unless we get a bit smarter, and a bit more humble about our position at the top of the food chain, it is just a matter of time before we exterminate vastly more wild species than we have already and significantly lower the quality, if not the quantity of our life. We do that at a great risk to our own future, because paradoxically, bidiversity is good for our long-run economic future even if it is financially costly in the very short-term.

Ridiculing others for lack of perfect consistency or comprehensiveness proves next to nothing. The seal hunt is (and has for some time) been biologically, economically and morally dubious, but to date it has made some purely political sense. Enlisting the help of celebrities is an attempt to turn the tables politically. It is perhaps sad that this tactic is necessary, but as Paul Watson says, this is what makes the media and politicians take notice. Ethical reflection, science-based projection into the future, and integrated reasoning based on both, is clearly not enough, it seems to redirect the political agenda.

Well my face ain’t so pretty, but then I don’t go around sticking it in front of camera’s with a bad makeup job on.

I certainly agree with the spider issue, forget the seals, save the zooplankton!!

Marginal economic activity, hmm guess it beats sitting around hoping for a tourist to show up so you can show them how life was lived. People complain that they sit around and collect pogey, but then complain when they do try to work. Newfies have been the Filipinos of Canada, everywhere I go I seem to meet up with Newfies scattered around the globe working in one field or another, such is life on the rock.

One thing I noticed when travelling through the Arctic, the National Geographic never shows what the ice looks like when you have a group of walruses on the ice, a giant smear of brown that can be smelled km’s away.

letting humans procreate out of control,has been,biologically,economically and morally ,dubious,but to date it has made some purely political sense.

see ,your words can be used/twisted the same way you twisted/used mine/ours.

feed the world...THEN TALK

Hey All...If we all WAIT to live a "perfect life", with no skeletons in the closet so to speak, nothing good for Mother Earth would EVER get done. We pick our say earth-battles and attempt to implement an ethical responsibility in accordance to OUR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE. WE all have one you know... This is all Paul and Heather are doing. Good on them...

Anyways, these sealers average $1,000.00 per year on this archaic make-work rampage against the seals. It is sad for the sealers, and it is sad for the seals... Seals only eat 2% of the cod stocks. How do you spell OVER_FISHING...??

Seems how our money is being used anyways to support the ships taking the sealers to the ice flows...why don't we just buy these hunting licences and call is a day... or find some other solution instead of continuing to spread the blood of the innocent...!

We are better than this...RTB

"Ridiculing others for lack of perfect consistency or comprehensiveness proves next to nothing. The seal hunt is (and has for some time) been biologically, economically and morally dubious, but to date it has made some purely political sense. Enlisting the help of celebrities is an attempt to turn the tables politically. It is perhaps sad that this tactic is necessary, but as Paul Watson says, this is what makes the media and politicians take notice. Ethical reflection, science-based projection into the future, and integrated reasoning based on both, is clearly not enough, it seems to redirect the political agenda."

So what you are saying is that the earth will die incrementally, as we "try" our best in our own little way?

Wait until there is a crisis, until then why bother as it will affect my wallet!

As long as "we" continue to support a way of life that hinges on continued growth we are doomed (well maybe the next generation).

Maybe when "we" run of of oil and natural gas (or at least when we can not afford ever increasing oil price as supplies dwindle; new supplies are more expensive to siphon off; war; disaster; etc) "we" will live more within the Earth's means?

Save the whales, the seals, the fish, the bears, the penguins, birds, insects, animals, respect life that is conscious of itself, I know which side Paul are Briggite are on. Any one, if not all of the 30 million or so different forms of life are well worth preserving if we can, and we can, in my opinion. Still.

Paul and Brigette don't have to clink glasses with company that complains about slaughterhouses to rile up the burger barons of the worlds like Oprah did to make a point. And, be it as it may, there is much worse to be known for, than to have written and performed love songs, or spend time cheerleading protests against clubbing seals over the head.

Like corporate food and drug manufacturers that feed us and tell us how to live through the media?

I'd rather get my problems solved by the guys who write peace and love songs, thanks. (even though I'm suspecting Paul needs a little help, we got rid of the Peace guy a while back)

Save the whales, the seals, the fish, the bears, the penguins, birds, insects, animals, respect life that is conscious of itself, I know which side Paul are Briggite are on. Any one, if not all of the 30 million or so different forms of life are well worth preserving if we can, and we can, in my opinion. Still.

Paul and Brigette don't have to clink glasses with company that complains about slaughterhouses to rile up the burger barons of the worlds like Oprah did to make a point. And, be it as it may, there is much worse to be known for, than to have written and performed love songs, or spend time cheerleading protests against clubbing seals over the head.

Like corporate food and drug manufacturers that feed us and tell us how to live through the media?

I'd rather get my problems solved by the guys who write peace and love songs, thanks. (even though I'm suspecting Paul needs a little help, we got rid of the Peace guy a while back)

"when you can feed the world,then come tell us how to live ,when you can solve all of our problems,we just may listen."

I guess I can just ignore beer4mepleeze then?

Colin, you should hear what the walruses are saying about humans.

Colin:

You may agree/disagree with Ms. Bardot's message or method, but hacking a 71 year old woman because she's no longer the sex kitten she was at 17 is unfair at least, at worst a misogynistic double standard.

Nobody bitches about Bono's big nose (I've seen it up close, he's got a honker) or bad sunglasses.

nope. paul is out to lunch on the seal hunt. I'm with the folks trying to make a living.
about sir pauli and the rest- Rex Murphy said it best: ubersluts and uberhasbeens meddling in what they know squat about. I find all these "stars" to be a colossal bore, none more so than U2's Bono. Who the hell does he think his constituents are? those who buy his music...the mtv crowd. heaven help us. now there is an informed lot.
PS those cuddly white seals that are being pictured with the uber celbs, from what i have read, are not the seals that are hunted.

How many Grammy's you got bcee?

Funnily enough, a lot of rock stars are pretty well-informed simply because all the travel time they have gives them lots of opportunity to read and stay abreast of the issues that interest them.

I'd have to rate Bono at the very least as a well-informed layperson, at best a self-educated activist with a cogent argument for his cause(s)

Colin: You must have a poor image of humanity if you think we only save the pretty, or cute...sad.

The Brain (good name for you): You said, "I'd rather get my problems solved by the guys who write peace and love songs...", Thanks, me too. The only thing I would add is I would rather solve problems WITH the guys who write peace and love songs,... Thank you for this "The Brain".

BMCGA: You said, "Enlisting the help of celebrities is an attempt to turn the tables politically". Yes, alone it is more differcult to help on important issues such as the seal hunt, global warming or trophy hunting, but by working within our UNIQUE SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, maybe we can turn the tides for Mother Earth...At least we have a chance...

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world...indeed, it is the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead

The Earth knows no boundries or borders... These are man-made. I am sure that these little seals welcome EVERY human voice out there to speak the truth on their behalf, because obviously, they can not...

Peace All...

RTB

"bcee"- Rex Murphy...!! He speaks up all the time on what HE thinks is important, and works within his sphere of influence, and gladly uses his celebrity too.

Rex spoke up a few years ago on behalf of Golden Eagles when they gov't was shooting Golden Eagles around the almost extinct V.I. marmot colonies on Mt. Washington... Maybe Rex suffers from "Speciesism"...?? Pefering one species over another...??

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth".
~Albert Einstein

The compasionate, caring people, "bcee" such as the Pauls and Heathers of OUR WORLD, should be encouraged not discouraged, to ask questions and speak up on behalf of their sence of justice for these animals... Rex ONLY has an opinion, and one with biases attached too no less...

I think caution is in order on giving anyone too much "say so" on issues that affect all of us... Good council...fine, but we all have a heart and brain to use too...

RTB

RTB,try wrapping your brain around the fact that since the DAWN OF TIME ,there have been more species GO EXTINCT than we have on this planet now.so human predation does not wipe out as many species as the holier than thou preach about.
buffalos,dodos,certain whale species,fish,tigers,it looks like a lot to small minds,but scientists say there are over 300,000 species on this planet.the life span of any species is cyclical,soon it will be our turn.

if we are killed off by bird flu,no doubt people like you will be happy,the earth can be cleansed then of the terrible scourge that is homo sapien

"beer4mepleeze"-

...if we had to "feed the World" before we spoke, we would all be mutes...and what good would that do...
Peace Bro.

RTB

freebear

Does Paul Watson ship run on french fry grease?

woody says

Stump says

Well informed at what, how to burn, waste jet fuel.

Oh yeah that makes for an expert on "whatever"! cheez ... and where may i review his "cogent" arguements on any subject? In Teen magazine?

..so one needs a grammy to make comments. How many does Paris Hilton have ;-) How about how many Degrees in Science do you have? You may as well l ask how many coupons from save-on-on-foods i have collected.

Well i have thought long and laugh along with what Rex said in his op-ed piece i respected his thoughts on the matter. Not sure about respecting bardot's or sir pauli thoughts about the seal hunt

Well, all I have to say is I wish the only seal clubbing was this kind:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/Andre28BC/SealClubbin.jpg

if bono knew how much energy is wasted in one of U2's concerts,he would never open his mouth about anything.
oh! wait a minute,that isn't what would happen.what would happen is he would use his fame to direct attention to other issues,so no one could bitch at them.
he is nothing more than a religious,egoistic self involved(lookin fer that nobel prize)prima donna.
just another trained seal on the stage admired by a culture of sychophants.

So, the argument is that since the seals eat cod they should be culled? But they existed in balance for hundreds of millennia. It has taken humans a mere 500 years, since Cabot arrived off the Grand Banks, to wipe out the cod stocks. If we're concerned for the fishery, wouldn't it make more sense to cull the Newfies?

i guess your handle/id does say it all.
yes it is...just you

culling newfies,now you really proved how little you know about the situation.

Newfoundlanders fished off the Grand Banks and inshore for hundreds of years without destroying the cod fishery. The corporate factory ships from the greedy European and Asian markets that could stay at sea for months at a time pillaged the Atlantic cod stocks without the slightest concern being expressed by touchy-feely environmentalists. I didn't see press coverage of B.B. or Sir Paul cuddling a cod when that species was being decimated.

Jeezus Murphy, what is the bloody debate? Suppose Canadian farmers raised cattle, and shot, clubbed and skinned alive all their calves every year, to make fashion gloves, right in front of their mother's eyes. Picture this scenario for a sec...would there be an uproar?

Of course there would! The cows would suffer huge emotional distress, get depressed and get sick more often etc. No more "happymeat" in sight. There would be a huge AR and SPCA drive to outlaw the evil practice, to educate farmers about more humane practices. Why? Because we humans have finally realized that all mammals, from mice to monkeys, have a form of identity, a conscious mind and a significant emotional life, and care for their young just like people naturally do, even if they don't verbalize and debate the whole experience, or waste their brief mammalian lives reading and watching the Glamour News.

So come on folks, how can you forgive the clubbing and skinning of young seal pups right in front of their mother's eyes? Is it just too easy to remain numb, to not hear the wailings of the mother's loss, to remain so dispassionately scientific and statistical at a distance, to forget the bloody stain of this market-driven mass slaughter out on the ice, miles from anybody with half a heart?

http://www.u2.com/heartsminds/

Naturally, those who hack poor, poor Bono, ride their bikes everywhere, don 100% hemp clothing to do so, and never stray from a hundred mile diet.

Yes, he burns jet fuel. Yes, that's bad. But at least when he's up on stage he has a positive message of change to share. A better use of jet fuel than ferrying another fat North American somewhere warm in winter so they can come home with a trophy tan.

I have no Grammies on my mantle, nor any science degrees. I can however, see when things don't add up. Criticizing rock stars for informing themselves, having an opinion, and voicing it, when we're all here doing the same thing however, strikes me as hypocritical.

Thanks you "Wiley"...!

"So come on folks, how can you forgive the clubbing and skinning of young seal pups right in front of their mother's eyes?"...

Man, the simplicity of the obvious... There is nothing to justify the spilling of the blood of these sentient creatures...nothing. Neither science nor ethics can clear this bloody path...

Get this, the gov't(us)pays both for getting the sealing vessels to the ice with the sealers on it, and for research to discover more uses for the seal pup's body parts. So far it is fur,the seal's penis's used in the Asian market as an aphrodiciac, and oil. I wonder if research can test for lack of democratic integrity relative to the sealing industry.

I mean, how far down this sick and bloody hole do we have to go down...??

The majority of the people wants this bloody unethical industry stopped and are willing to pay for it...How do you spell Democracy??

Peace...RTB

Here here "Stump"...Well said.

...RTB

Stump wrote:

The truly hypocritical angle to all of this is the obscene wealth of the professional thieves and liars who use their cultural celebrity to protest the seal hunt in the name of righteous indignation and at the expense of the poor: the new puritanism of the criminally rich and the intellectually self-satisfied caters to the politics of the sound bite and the photo-op.

Wiley wrote:

Dispassionate? Hardly. Club them quickly as the ice turns red and serve up some fresh seal meat. Not dispassionate but delicious.

I am far more concerned over the condition of impoverished humans in my own backyard than I am with the illogic of animal "rights." Not that I would expect Monsieur McCartney or Madame Bardot to ever sympathize with such concerns: after all, where's the excitement, where's the glory in it? "Let them drink lattes and beaujolais!" Pose, snap, walk, adjust.

google,canadian seal hunt facts and you will find the situation as presented by all parties.

you will also find the white coats cannot be hunted

cows,goats,sheep,any farm animal can be clubbed and have its throat slit as a recognized form of legal slaughter,that has been around since the dawn of time...only the weaklings in our society cry for the supposed rights of the dinner entree.

as i said before,i don't see brigitte bardot wearing a chicken costume in front of KFC and i hear bono is no vegetarian...
and mccartney,well he's just bored in his old age...

and ,right to bear,i hope that doesn't mean children

"Bluenose" wrote,

"Dispassionate? Hardly. Club them quickly as the ice turns red and serve up some fresh seal meat. Not dispassionate but delicious".

I was wondering Bluenose, are you sure it is the seal meat you are after???

RTB

Right to Bear wrote:

Now what dispassionate spark of ethical altruism could have motivated you to pose such a churlish question?

http://www.pulpless.com/jneil/aniright.html

http://www.pulpless.com/jneil/fifty.html

Grown-ups who understand the issue and still prefer animals to men are evil. If you don't believe me on this, ask them a question I've heard Dennis Prager ask his radio listeners. Ask them if they had to choose between saving a drowning baby and saving their pet cat or dog, which they would choose to save first. If they answer any other way than that they would immediately choose saving the baby first, I suggest telling your kids to scream for help if they ever encounter this monster again. They are psychopaths, not to be trusted, and I'm not kidding.

Bluenose wrote:

"Now what dispassionate spark of ethical altruism could have motivated you to pose such a churlish question"?

I'm not sure...

Peace Bro...

RTB

OK beer4:

Seal hunt aside, can you tell me which part is sticking in your craw?

rock stars with opinions?
rock stars voicing opinions?
rock stars selling records?
rock stars touring?

I think some people will perform for others whether there's money in it or not. In fact, I know that to be true. U2 hasn't always played stadiums, nor could they have foreseen they'd end up near the top of the celebrity heap. But there they are. What would you have them do now? Put a quota on how many songs they sell? Refuse payment for their works? Sit at home and apolitically count the cash? Is it OK by you to write a protest song? If not, somebody better burn Woody Guthrie's entire musical output.

Be thankful there ARE people who get involved, however superficially, AND have the ear of young people (although Sir Paul, Ms. Bardot, and the members of U2 are hardly a bunch of youngsters themselves).

Would you rather kids heard bling-bling inanities and nothing else when they pop those Ipod earbuds in, or that they connect the stars they revere with getting informed and involved in the issues of the day?

Seriously, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

stump, you are as transparent as your blather,you want nothing more than a hollow debate so you can voice your opinion and try to over ride any opinion i might put across.

i have been lurking for sometime and people like you are a dime a dozen on this site and any other site out there that lets you be the pretenders you are,you are a psuedo intellectual posuer.

I thought the McCartney pic was a bit cheesey and, frankly despite what Watson claims, I doubt this issue got more than passing interest by most.

And for good reason, I'd say. We are about a foot away from a world war, at least a quarter of humanity is right now scrambling to avoid starvation on a constant basis, the environment is into post lead-up to global warming and religious fundamentalists are on the rise.

Given those circumstances I find it a bit distracting that otherwise intelligent people are making such a fusas about the killing of seals.

Are there evil intentions behind the seal cull?
Of course there aren't but there is a history some 500 years old in Newfoundland of harvesting seals.

There is also a history of several millenia for Inuit who also harvest the seal, an animal that gives Inuit life sustaining vitamins they can't get from veggies because guess what people, veggies don't grow in the north.

People slaughter cattle and eat them, others do in pigs, chickens, goats. Of course neither of the Pauls of this issue have ever gone out on a limb to stop the sale of milk fed veal.

And please before you laugh, have a close look into the eyes of a two-day old calf and tell me it's not cute.

Why, perhaps because the killing of the so called food animals are all done in an industrial settings.

No need to chase a cow across a high profile piece of ice when they are simply lined up to await their turn at the stun gun and the knife.

If seal hunters did things like club baby seals and then lifted the carcus to catch the dripping blood as a drink or something equally morbid I'd join the protest.

BTW, I have seen that bloody drink ritual played out several times by macho guys.

But that's not the case. However, it does remind me of the slaughter and abuse of Iraqi humans who were tortured (some died), by sadistic people employed as intelligence officers in US and British run prisons.

And those torturers were all smiles in the pics I've seen of those sanctioned military cullings.

If McCartney wants to take up a cause, I'd suggest he immediately renounce his English knighthood and then call on his own prime minister to stop the killing of innocent Iraqis by British and American military.

That would get world wide attention fast I'll bet.

As for this American outfit, the Humane Society, which is sponsoring much of this ado about little, I'd recommend that it quit following the lead of the US administration and start putting out real information rather than the tripe about a world-wide boycott of Canadian seafood products that has since been proven to be all about red herring.

I guess it's easier to feel great pitty for some cutie on an ice flow than to worry about the realities that are slowly killing all of us.

amen to that allan

To "allan" and to "Bluenose" a great big thank-you for your very thoughtful insights. And I will, in closing, again thank Rex Murphy for his insights. They are right on the mark.

gee even the Beatle's own fan blog is taking shots at the Fab One:
http://www.beatlelinks.net/forums/showpost.php?p=566130&postcount=3
(that post is well worth reading mr paul watson...elementary it is sir.)

Poor little pauli:
"oh dear. Yesterday I was a star and now Say Say Say ... all that i am hypocrite. or just a Walrus"

cheers and good night.

PS I have been too hard on Mr. Bono, as his name implies, he is trying to do good in the world. He is a force for positive change... But he is in the final analysis a "celeb" ... and his cachet can quickly come to an end. He too might easily become another "Sir Bore" ... although i also acknowledge that he could possibly go on to bigger things beyond being a "Star"... but what are the odds?

Paul Watson is right, the only reason people like Rex Murphy are talking about the seal hunt is because of celebrities.

bcee, while I appreciate your comments I must say I am more than a little uncomfortable being lumped in with Rex Murphy who, in my view is an unabashed cheer leader for US imperialist actions.

He and Christie Blanchford have become the new military propaganda couple at the Globe&Mail, with T Rex dispensing with the moralisms in overly expensive wording while Blanchford sets up the photo ops and cutsie kid stories in Afghanistan.

One must assume Blanchford, who brings a sort of a sob sister tabloid style to the G&M, has been given leave by the media gods to ignore the occupation's horror stories lest some of it cling to a uniform with a maple leaf on it.

Sorry for the rant. It may soon be illegal to make such comments.

A pseudo-intellectual poseur?

Yeah, maybe. I guess I should shut up and listen to genuine intellectual poseurs.

I'm not trying to jump all over your opinion. How dare I disagree with my betters huh? That's why I asked for your thoughts. You know who's really a dime-a-dozen on the Internet?

People who make statements, then when someone asks them to explain themselves they attack the person asking the questions and ignore the questions.

w/e

re: Bono.

"He too might easily become another "Sir Bore" ... although i also acknowledge that he could possibly go on to bigger things beyond being a "Star"... but what are the odds?"

Why don't you ask Ronald Reagan, Ken Dryden, Sonny Bono, the dude who used to be on Love Boat, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Carole Taylor, etc, etc.

While I might not agree with the political views of those particular people, they've gained a spot in the public consciousness and are using it to further their viewpoint.

What exactly is your point with regard to celebrities having and expressing a political viewpoint? That they do their due diligence? A fair comment but incumbent upon us all isn't it?

incumbent isn't too faux-literate a word a hope!

:-)

Sorry, I meant "I hope"

My balloon of smart-assery deflated by poor typing.

I congratualte Ms Bardot and the McCartney's for holding up a mirror to Canadian society - seems a lot of Canadians don't like what they see.

The next time you go to criticise a foreign gov't for a policy of such-and-such keep in this seal hunt in mind - our own reflection is not that pretty either.

This discussion doesn't seem to me to be really about seals, celebrities, management, or even the personalities we all have been given to annoy each other with.

It's about fear, I think. Leading as always to anger.

The fact that the baby seals are so cute only increases our embarrassment at having screwed up so bad that we've come to this nasty pass as our only stupid idea to save the last half dozen cod on the Grand Banks, where they used to be so numerous they were practically a hazard to navagation.

If we could send draggers to kill the seals by destroying the basis of all life on Earth somehow, DFO would probably sign off on it.

like i said stump ,i don't even have to answer and you will pontificate and postulate to anyone who is daft enough to participate in your vacuous ramblings.
political puppets from the cult of sycophancts.
just like rocker biff the tattooed moron,who thinks her ways should be lived for a better world harmony,eat vegetarian,tattoo your body like a moron and pontificate to the great unwashed who know no better.
the personalities out there are as vacant as you stump and thats your common ground and the bible you read from as well.
one of the first people i met when i moved out here in 1979 was bob geldof,he was working at the georgia straight or selling papers cannot remember,he was so full of bullshit,few rarely listened,lo and behold,he is now sir bob bullshit.

thats the kind of people that get those positions of power,liars,cheats,con artists,actors,lawyers,etcetra,etc...

Ya know, if you could work a product plug in there, you could put the 'ad' in ad hominem.

typical psudeo intellectual,gotta get in that last word and pithy philosophy.

what a wanker!

Ain't that the truth...read the first item on the "Reported Elsewhere" sidebar of the Tyee:

Harper screws press gallery, doesn’t call in morning.

I know the Inuit wanted Paul to come up North and spend some time learning about them and the hunting of seals, they were really annoyed with people flying in and making grand annoucements.

By the way Allan, your post 15 hrs ago, is well said.

My apologies, Alan. I did not mean to group you in with Rex (i kind of like the t-Rex handle ;-) ).

I appreciate that you are both two distinct voices and not necessarily in agreement. (as to T-Rex's other columns and whether he is an US ally, I can't comment as I don't read all his columns. Just some here and there. But i can guess as to why he _may_ come across as that way. It has to do with the muzzling of one religion by another... I can well appreciate that mr t-rex is not a politically correct person on that issue. And good on him for that).

I must comment on the general principal of people (not implying alan here) dismissing other people’s thoughts out of hand because they have pigeon holed them into certain camps. I find it not very useful to try and "tag" people with labels. I like to read all opinions from as many diverse positions as possible. I find this gives me a certain "balance" on the issues at hand. I can make up my own mind on the points and the weight of an argument. Hell I have even on a rare occasion found myself in agreement with Harper!

The people in these forums who take a hard line on the “emotions” of an issue are the ones with the weakest positions. Their arguments are non-existent.

Paul Watson has his own non-altruistic agenda. Folks should be calling him on that. And very few people are standing up for the un-employed Newfoundlanders who are trying to make a noble living.

It’s not about white seal pups Mr. Watson and you know it! How come you never note this: “ The World Wildlife Fund, the United Nations and other unbiased international organizations… agree that the seal harvest is in fact a humane and well regulated undertaking.” I assume this the case but do not have first hand knowledge of its veracity

And as for the McCartneys: they are simply pawns, and as it appears without their bearings:

"Throughout the debate, it was made clear that Paul McCartney has a profound lack of knowledge as a foreigner trying to intervene in a Canadian issue. Doing the interview from Prince Edward Island, McCartney was invited by Williams to witness the seal hunt in Newfoundland. To this, McCartney sarcastically retorted, “Well, we’re here, Danny. You don’t need to invite us. Thanks for the invitation, but we’re here. We’re actually in the studio here. We are in Newfoundland. And we saw the seals yesterday.” No, Paul, you’re not in Newfoundland. Right country, wrong province."
SOURCE: http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/2006-1/issue12/op-seal.html

Happy Trails...

STUMP looks to me that, not only has beer4mepleeze got your GOAT, but has you STUMP(ed) as well, good for you BEER4MEPLEEZE.

seals are a problem for many, however i see Deer in my garden as a bit proble,!
they simply anything that grows!
Do you see the similarities with seals?
Yhey are nice and cute but a goddamn problem never the less.
Unfortunately nobody hunts or culls the dear.
It is against the law for me to shoot them, while it is perfectly Ok to kill slugs

bcee,you should read your earlier posts before you start pontificating about the general principle and demeanor of commentors who supposedly pigeon hole their opponents.

your holier than thou aspirarions show you to be one of those shallow end of the pool swimmers.get a brain and you may be able to swim out here with the real predators.

as it is you are only swimming with morons like watson and the mccartneys.the foul odour of hypocrisy they give off is the same kind you revel in ,for personal glory,not for the inuit who need this hunt.

Actually, Woody, I was too busy laughing at the irony of his getting in the last word post and hoping no one else would post after him. I thought he'd summed it up nicely.

Other than his palpable hatred of celebrities, he still hasn't come up with a reason why they're not allowed to voice an opinion.

stump you are just like those celebs,you like the sound of your own voice your unabashed love of yourself is pure self interest at it's best.

you figure celebs are brighter than the rest of us be a groupie and get those kneepads out for bono,i hear he just finished with paul martin,now you got a spot there stump.

This reminds me of a Denis Leary monologue from his "No Cure for Cancer" CD.

"What are you?"
"I'm an otter."
What do you do?"
"I do cute little human things with my hands!"
"You're free to go. Next!...What are you?"
"I'm a cow."
"You're a steak, get on the truck."
"But I have animal rights too –"
"You're a f**king baseball glove! Get on the truck!"

I have never seen a celebrity protesting to protect ugly endangered animals. And don't say beauty is in the eye of the beholder before you've seen a drawing of a dodo.

I don't figure celebs are brighter than the rest of us. Keep trying to get my goat though, it's making me laugh my ass off.

stump,i don't waste my time getting anyones goat,reading your past posts have shown me you like to look in the mirror,probably after writing a post you have thought of as being witty.

i bet you got a big scrapbook just filled with your wittisisms,eh ? actually i should have said,small scrapbook ,eh ? let's be truthful,you are the only one that thinks your witty.

Well, it's such a lovely view (in the mirror).

The scrapbook is huge. All zingers all the time.

When are you going to tell us why celebrities aren't allowed to voice their opinion in the media?

BTW, Pam Anderson is throwing her hat in the anti-sealing ring. That should give you fits eh?

Why do you hate free speech beerman?

hey beer4mepleeze I'm sick of you kiss my ass poseur!

ah ha ,or should i say stump,geeze it dont matter,you are all the same,hosers,ah ha

pamela anderson,now there is a real rocket scientist,wonder what rock star she's gonna spawn something with next,maybe you will get lucky stump and they will release another porno movie showing how the ubergarbage procreates. made just for sychophants like you people !

Wow, beer4me... your lack of capitals, spacing errors and bad grammar is making it really painful to read your posts.

Ya know ya big jerk, if you said that we as a society put too much import on the opinions of celebrities, I'd be tempted to agree with you.

If you said the cult of personality makes for big problems, I'd be tempted to agree with you.

If you had anything other than name-calling to add to the discussion, I'd treat your opinion with respect. If you truly have lurked here for a while, you'd know that.

And, what Fii said. Strunk and White. Elements of Style. Get it and read it and maybe you wouldn't come off like a fifteen year old that was too busy jacking off to manga during English class to figure out that capitals aren't just for yelling at people

you peons show your true anal retentive qualities when your sychophancy is pointed out

this is a new medium and the only rules are those chosen by the really progressive users,not losers like you people whining about someone with a better grasp on reality...

hey watson,you remember this?

pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/er...entreport_e.htm

isn't this your old polluting tub problem others paid for ?

you uninformed can get you kids educated here !

pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/er/seashepherdII/incidentreport_e.htm

see if this one works ! left of last/ on upper url

I would like to ask everyone, Paul Watson in particular, if the hunting of seals has been sustainable?

Would it not be an example of sustainable development?

While I appreciate the work regarding the hunting of whales, I think this campaign is more about celebrity and raising money.

How much money raised by the Sea Shepard Society goes towards Captain Watson's salary? Or rather his honourarium/stipend/allowance?

Does it bother PETA, or the Humane Society what is killed/slaughtered to make pet food?

Hey Paul, have any of your ships had sails that were ever unfurled? You would be more credible if the Sea Shepard (latest version) did not depend on oil so much.

i heard pamela anderson sent the prime minister a letter asking him to stop the killing of baby seals.
reading any of the sites available points out ,the baby whites are off limits and the seal population is up in the millions,so 360,000 culled is not leading to extinction any time soon.

the rhetoric on this thread shows that common sense really is in short supply especially after perusing the seashepherd link.

Pamela is a member of PETA, not exactly a group on my Christmas Card list. While I am happy that a local girl did good in her chosen career, I doubt that she has spent much time North of 60° and perhaps should before she tries to speak on the matter to the PM.

I belong to the alternate PETA
People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

freebear, why would the people managing the slaughter of seals be any better at that than they were at managing cod and salmon?

I still say, celebrities wouldn't be used to see soap or cuddle seal pups if people didn't want to watch them. Since the media only pays attention to environmentalists when a celebrity shows up and speaks for them I think its necessary to recruit all the celebrities one can carry. At least until reporters and viewers are willing and able to watch real environmentalists without switching channels or dozing off.

I think those who hate celebrities talking for environmentalists would have more credibility if they didn't watch them.

How much taxpayer money is used to subsidize the seal hunt? Both directly and indirectly?

Who is the big market for seals?

Frank:

Who is the big market for seals? Pelts are made into coats or boots and maybe bought by rich celebrities!?

I do not support the justification of the seal hunt to improve fisheries that have been decimated for the most part by overfishing (domestic & foreign). The seals and fish have co-existed (predator/prey relationship) for thousands of years.

I believe it is also a food source-just ask an Inuit.

My point about Watson's allowance is that environmental groups (ENGOs)are an industry themselves, and many see it as a livlihood (speaking from experience where monies I raised for an education campaign was siphoned off to help pay the Director's salary). I know, I can't paint all with one brush.

Please, no government subsidy talk, we all know about corporate welfare too! And how much is the private automobile subsidized?

As for celebrities, I may see them, but I do not watch them. I favour using humour to get the attention of the media and thus those who watch/listen/and hopefully learn from the media, rather than celebrities.

Wait, I forgot, we (WCWC-Alberta) did have the help of Bruce Coburn (concert to raise awareness and $) to assist the Lubicon Cree of Northern Alberta!

The Compass
March 28, 2006

By-line: Averill Baker, LLB

They are the rage in Europe, but the question is where do they get them? We see them on television – white and blue sealskin coats – on the catwalks of Europe and the runways of New York.

They are on the news every night now – those fancy fashion models – wearing white and blue sealskin coats, slinking down the runways, one leg directly in front of the other, like a fox tracking a rabbit.

While they strut their time upon the stage, the news announcer in the background quotes the most recent aged celebrity who claims we Newfoundlanders are barbarians.

As we all know in this province, we are not allowed to sell the skin of a whitecoat or blueback seal. It is a criminal offence for our sealers to do that.

Ottawa made sure, about seven years ago, that we ordinary Newfoundlanders and Labradorians would not forget the law when they ordered law enforcement officers to raid the homes, business premises, and trucks of all buyers of sealskins in this province.

Law enforcement officers seized all records of the buyers and any blueback sealskins they found. Every person who sold bluebacks in this province was charged with a criminal offence.

I know all about it because I am still in court representing some of the sealers in ongoing court cases at several communities on the Northeast coast.

Over and over we see the whitecoat and blueback clothing on CBC, CTV, CNN and other new networks, while they talk about us, shamelessly suggesting something that we know is one big fat fib.

The truth is that those beautiful whitecoat and blueback sealskins come from Europe, Asia and the United States where it is legal to sell whitecoats and bluebacks.

In those other countries the law states that every seal can be killed and the pelts sold as long as the seal is weaned from its mother – this means they can be taken about 10 to 12 days after birth. A blueback can remain a blueback for a couple of years.

So, these Europeans and U.S. protestors who are objecting to the killing and selling of whitecoats and bluebacks should stay home and protest in their own front yard.

But they come to our province, where it is illegal to do the very thing they are protesting against, and where the penalties are so severe for breaking this law that nobody does it!

Of course the real reason why the protestors are here is because Canada is the only nation that allows them to get close to a seal, let alone a seal hunt.

The law in the United States is called The Marine Mammals Regulations of Alaska. That law says that no person, other than a sealer, can come to within 100 yards of a seal. A film crew in an airplane cannot come to within 1, 500 feet of a seal. There is also no provision in U.S. law to allow a protestor to be given a license to do what the aged celebrities are allowed to do on our coast.

Norway, renowned for its very high standards of living, directly subsidized the seal hunt with cash paid for each seal pelt. Norway even issues hunting licenses to tourists to kill seals if they want but Norway does not allow protesters to approach a seal or be in the area of a seal hunt.

The UK law respecting seals even allows fishermen to kill all seals that approach fishing gear or salmon rivers.

Greenland has an unlimited quota to kill seals. They estimate they killed in excess of 150,000 pup seals last year. Norway and Russia recorded 177,000 kills and they count their seals differently. They encourage sealers to kill whitecoats and bluebacks in their first year of life because of the high incidence of natural mortality. Their quotas are set so that three seal pups are counted as two adult seals.

While Canada is the only place in the world where television cameras are welcome to witness and film, on site, the killing of seals, you might have thought there was hope for change with Newfoundland’s own newly-appointed fisheries minister Loyola Hearn in charge.

Last week the minister claimed that it is probably better to license the protestors to come and film the seal hunt to show the world that it is well regulated and humane. Perhaps it is too obvious to point out to the minister that cameras aren’t allowed in abattoirs (nor should they be) and they shouldn’t be allowed on the pristine white ice fields. The abattoirs are closely regulated and inspected, and so are the ice fields.

http://www.pagophilus.org/hunt/mkts.htm

this link has some info to products and other issues.while i think the natives have every right to hunt for food there is no real need for clothing with space age materials available and fashion clothing bearing skins(any skins imho)...should be outlawed and anybody eating seal penis should be avoided like the plague.

Voiciferously pro-sealhunt, I recently found myself in an argument with an equally mouthy human-rights activist.

I asked why they are targeting the seal hunt when there are bigger problems in Canadian industry, for example the factory-farm beef and poultry industries?

Because the lobby is too strong, I was told.

The sealers who take to the ice every year, risking their lives in order to feed their families are an easy target. Ironic that a human-rights activist would take this stance, no?

Ok, so celebs have time, money and instant media exposure to throw around at their various pet causes. Why not do something more productive with these resources. the seal hunt is the most sustainable hunt we've got going and at least these animals are "free run" and "organic".

Shut up and let Atlantic Canadians earn a decent living. If you are against all forms of slaughter - free run or otherwise - then stop harassing the sealers and offer up some serious economic solutions.

Colin, from your quoted post I am under the impression that the Newfies are upset because their market is protesting them? There is an answer for that, stop selling or make it very clear every time you're on tv. Use pictures and video clips if its so obvious.

I don't see why they shouldn't be. I was raised on a farm, we ate our own cows and chickens. I think people should see where their food comes from.

freebear,

I would have no problem at all with anyone eating the seal they kill. Taking the pelt and moving on however is just way too pre-Confederation.

Agreed

But the subsidy issue is a big one with me. Sure, lots of other things are subsidized, I posted a list of a lot of things I consider to be a subsidy to business once on the Tyee. If an economic activity fails to even cover its own subsidies I think it should stop.

i am with you frank on the cameras in the abbatoirs.as butchers/meat cutters and master sausage makers for hundreds of years my fathers side of the family bought a slaughter farm shortly after immigrating to canada.i grew up going there for summer holidays and did not participate in any business,it made me very queasy to see cows,pigs,sheep,cut up for the tables of our customers.but i realised it was a way of life and eating the meats was never the issue,it was always seeing those eyes as the beast was slaughtered.

there are no such things as table scraps when i use meat in my home...

haraldkann, exactly. I ate Bessie-burgers and Kate-steaks etc. Of our cows, one a year went in the freezer. I hated doing it because I'm the one that fed them and herded them and named them.

Bad as I felt about it, I would have felt worse if I had casually tossed the meat in the garbage. No one who loves animals would allow the carcass to be wasted.

I didn't feel as bad about killing the chickens, its just a mammal thing.

Now I haven't kept up on the seal hunt but I recall years ago seeing the carcasses being left on the ice in front of the mother which I thought was sick.

waste of any slaughtered animal is criminal.

use everything(even though i don't like seal penis being used,they are not hunted for the penis alone as other animals are for certain products for the orient)or leave the animal alone.

and the slaughter house visage on virgin white snow does turn the stomach,so it's no wonder people complain.

it is a hunt with REAL PR PROBLEMS to say the least.

Harald:

To address your point about space-age materials and clothing. Couldn't one argue that using a seal pelt for clothes is more environmentally sound (the seal can be replaced) than using fossil fuels for synthetics and energy intensive manufacturing methods?

That’s was my first feeling on the matter, but then I realized the carcass is not entirely “wasted” as it will feed quite a few layers of the food chain in an area where food can be scarce. Taking all of the carcasses away may create a net loss of nutrients in the area. I suppose the carcasses could be used as protein supplement in fish pellets for the many fin fish farms, a bit of poetic irony there, fish eating seal bits.

In example bears in times of ample food supply do not eat all of the salmon, but leave a fair bit to rot in the forest and play a significant role (according to some recent studies) in depositing nutrients into the riparian area

I do however agree with Frank and haraldkann about wasting meat (and other foods) at home, my wife is excellent at turning “waste” into something quite edible.

i see nothing wrong in utilizing the products of hunted animals to the maximum,clothing from furs are used in cold climes for a reason,they work.

fashion on the other hand is not an acceptable reason to kill an animal ,imho.

and i only used the space aged material as a benchmark to relate to products on the market.
i personally use a goretex parka filled with goosedown ,got one in the closet.old and new technology giving the best of both worlds and the pollution from manufacture is negligible,though some production from china is very environmentally unfriendly.

you make the choice,if you want the hunt to continue,buy the products and if you want the hunt shut down,boycott.the link i provided above gives the products available,you either buy or boycott.

Frank said:
"I don't see why they shouldn't be. I was raised on a farm, we ate our own cows and chickens. I think people should see where their food comes from".

I agree with you Frank. I think we have sterilized our society from the natural world, and this is sad and regrettble. Most people do not ever consider that the pretty packaged t-bone steaks we get at the super market, actually had an identity. Perhaps they even lived within a bovine society or community. Most people have not been raised to be appeciative and therefore grateful to this animal for the laying down it's life for our life. The first nations traditionally understand "grateful"...

Those in cities live in a artificial habitat, eating meat,(whatever that is), and wearing fuzzy, furry clothing. It seems that many people live a life of alienation from reality and truth relative to all that is natural. I cannot help but think that getting in touch with the community of the natural world would be a healthy step for so many people... I am thankful for those people (both rual and urban) that indeed understand this and live their lives accordingly, while making ethical and educated decisons along the way...

So YES, we should show truth using media, and any other way we have to tranfer information to the human audience... It is an excellent tool for communication and education

Haraldkann said:
"...fashion on the other hand is not an acceptable reason to kill an animal..."

Thank you "H" and I agree...

and

".while i think the natives have every right to hunt for food there is no real need for clothing with space age materials available and fashion clothing bearing skins(any skins imho)...should be outlawed and anybody eating seal penis should be avoided like the plague".

Thank you again. Sustinence hunting for first nations is necessary and acceptable. The killing of tens of thousands of seal pups for the fashion market is both unacceptable, and untraditional no matter who is saying it... It is an insult to suggest exploitation of a species is traditional to first nation people as it is not...

Peace,RTB

You mean like the "bufflo jumps" in Alberta?

Colin wrote:
"You mean like the "buffalo jumps" in Alberta?"

Colin dude, thank you for bringing this up. It was not the natives that took out the buffalo. They only survived off the buffalo sustainably, and harmoniously like wolves and a caribou herd (ie.Porcipine herd up north).

The animals were nearly wiped out by "white man" with buffalo guns so the natives would not have anything to eat. A way the white man attempted to control the Native people. They were not the only animals to almost be wiped out by these by "round-eye". Wolves took a hit too. Ranchers killed all the wolves in Southern Alberta within the last 100 years. They are just now starting to come back, but MANY still die in the hands of ranchers and gov't agents. This exploitive theme is not so different then what is happening with the seal hunt issue. The obvious difference is that I am paying for this pathetic seal hunt...

A sad but seemingly unavoidable problem is some first nations groups have bought in to this exploititve mentality.

Thankfully many first nations people stand true to their traditional values but are also interested in learning and updating their skills. A wonderful combination of information I would say.

I hold that traditional management of lands and resourses is the best option.

RTB

ps
I am not a scientist, but does anyone wonder what the genetic diversity of the seals are after years of being wiped out. Don't they think that there may be an impact here...duh?? The North American wolf (Alberta especially was hard on wolves) genetics is down to less then half of what it was originally. Apparently there is such thing as the living extict... A sad fact...RTB

Right to bear

The reason I brought this up was that the First Nations ability to impact on the environment was limited by their technology. The buffalo Jumps were very wasteful, but was within their abilities to gather a large amount of meat and other animal parts. Had they had access to more metals and horses they would have had a greater impact on the environment. If I remember correctly the plains Indians used to set large grass fires for some purpose that escapes me at the moment, but perhaps someone else can expand on this. FN’s are made up of people they contain all of the faults and the strengths of the rest of mankind. It would have been interesting to see where the “Confederation of Seven Nations” would have looked like in by now if the European had not come to North America.

Also the buffalo themselves were a major factor on the change from forest to grasslands.

Colin
Without denying the generality of your claim - about the buffalo jump - these theories are part of the argument that is being advanced in some academic (and political) circles to support the contention that native North Americans (who in these theories are only considered the 'first' in a long line of supplanted immigrant waves) have never had, and are certainly not justified in claiming, any special relationship with the land and the environment.

Based upon conjecture and a certain amount of rather ambiguous archeological evidence, these assertions are at the heart of the justification for a movement to deny First Nations:
1) Any claim to lands and resources to which they might be justified under (or in spite of) treaties; and
2) Other rights to government and administration, including the rights to reseources and royalties, which might happen to be in, under or around their traditional and/or treaty lands; and
3) To demean their traditional practices, language and culture as merely the leftovers of a defeated and bypassed, if not conquered people to which little more than passing notion should be made; and
4) Even if First Nations peoples are entitled to some ‘aboriginal’ rights they should be severely limited and, if allowed at all, are part of a ‘social welfare’ program and not as the result of vested or legal entitlements.

Gwest

I know that you and I disagree on this issue, However it is fair to say that immigration into North America likely followed typical patterns and the “waves” of new immigrants is not terribly unusually. The only thing that was different was the extent of the comparative isolation that existed in portions of North America.

You are correct that there is a often a underlying political angle to anything to do with the length of time the existing First Nations can tie to the land. Included in this is the desire to prevent DNA testing of remains as it may conflict with their oral history and since oral history is now a part of our legal system, anything that might jeopardize that position is attacked.

I believe that FN have significant claims to the land, but not from the beginning of time

What bothers me about the attitude behind these assertions is the utterly phony academic gloss that suggests disputed anthropology and conjectural interpretations of pre-history have any credence in the current debate. People who want to maintain that Native Peoples are, finally, more or less responsible for their own plight, for whatever justification - have a huge amount of 'real' history to overcome, in my opinion. The intellectual dishonesty of relying on those kinds of justifications to deflect the effects and costs of colonialism are, in my opinion, beyond excusing, sorry.

Believing that would be, for me, tantamount to saying that if the Germans had won the war they'd have been perfectly justified in ignoring the Holocaust and saying the Jews were merely supplanted by a new wave of 'more evolved' and sophisticated immigrants. That it was all their own fault.

Attaching oneself to such sophistry is dangerous...both politically and morally.

regardless of who is supposed to own what,we are ALL RESPONSIBLE IN OWNERSHIP OF THIS PLANET.

Gwest
I feel the concept that First Nations have a unique link to the land is part of a mythology that seemed to have started with Grey Owl. To me it is a myth, just as the concept that they are less capable than white man is a myth. Both were born to serve a purpose and neither does them justice.

If you wanted to argue that First Nations have accumulated a significant knowledge base of their traditional territories, that I would happily agree on.

Yesterday I was involved in two meeting, which included reps from several FN’s. It is quite interesting to listen to the language being used and the demands being made. They reflect a combination of legality, emotion, politics and history. The meaning of a word or a choice of definition can have great significance.

It is also very interesting to listen to the reps of the FN’s when one raises a point that conflicts with the interest of the other FN’s. then the verbal tip toeing really begins.

It is clear that I will have to read up some more on the various theories regarding the populating of North America, as this subject will be coming up again here. It will be also interesting to consider the potential impacts of the possible Chinese 1421 visit.

All these years and Watson still spews all the same rhetoric and dribble. Same old tired droning on and on. For any real cause? hardly more that Watson likes to get his name in print and the news. This is the guy who so cherishes life that he rams ships at high sea, ships staffed by underpayed working class stiffs who often had thier lives put at risk my Mr. Watson and his high sea terrorist tactics. So great is his respect for human lives he would readily and without thought of the consequences of his Pirtate style antics. Then we have Bardot and her famous visit to Newfoundland in years gone by as she shed her furs to take to the ice flows to protect the baby seals. As for ex Beatle Paul it is indeed refereshing to see Multi Millionaire Love song officianado Paul attempting to make some form of dialogue on an issue he obviously has little knowledge of. And we then are witness to news stories about the American Humane society using names of Commercial outlets in a claim they are boycotting Canadian products however they forgot to ask the Companies and now it seems that few were aware they were boycotting us or that thier names were being used for this purpose.

Gwest
partly connected to our discussion, but very interesting. Chinese shipwrecks around the world.

http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/content.asp?EvidenceID=29

G West said:
"What bothers me about the attitude behind these assertions is the utterly phony academic gloss that suggests disputed anthropology and conjectural interpretations of pre-history have any credence in the current debate. People who want to maintain that Native Peoples are, finally, more or less responsible for their own plight, for whatever justification - have a huge amount of 'real' history to overcome, in my opinion. The intellectual dishonesty of relying on those kinds of justifications to deflect the effects and costs of colonialism are, in my opinion, beyond excusing, sorry.

Believing that would be, for me, tantamount to saying that if the Germans had won the war they'd have been perfectly justified in ignoring the Holocaust and saying the Jews were merely supplanted by a new wave of 'more evolved' and sophisticated immigrants. That it was all their own fault.

Attaching oneself to such sophistry is dangerous...both politically and morally."

Would you mind simplifying this a bit G West...Thanks.

RTB

Right to Bear
I am in and out this afternoon. I will, I promise, get back to your point later in the day.

Right to Bear

I’m not a First Nations person. These remarks are not meant to be disrespectful of First Nations traditions or customs. I may well leave out important points unintentionally. For that, apologies in advance.

Colin started this exchange by responding to your assertion about the more or less complete extinction of the buffalo as a result of over-hunting by white culture and its agents. He brought up the buffalo jump as an example of native cultures having been wasteful and profligate with natural resources. He elaborated by asserting that the main reason natives weren’t as destructive of the natural world (prior to contact) as Europeans have been since is simply the result of primitive technology. He mentioned the fact that there is some evidence that natives (from pre-contact times) also altered their environment with fire. He didn’t mention agriculture but there are also a number of other cases covered in the archeological and anthropological literature that extend these arguments in these areas too.

The point is, simply, that there is a body of academic inquiry, which asserts that the idea of natives having a closer and more intimate relation to the environment and the natural than Europeans do is nonsense, or at the least, that there is little evidence – apart from the cultural and religions myths of First Nations peoples to support this. I think the best short summary of the literature is an essay by two researchers from the Smithsonian, Richard White and William Cronon, called “Ecological change and Indian-White Relations.”

I think it’s important to remember that the evidence for much of this is conjectural at best. There is some evidence that natives may have used fire in adaptive ways in the mid-west and, as Colin mentions there is the buffalo jump. The strongest evidence of a native contribution to environmental degradation comes from the post-contact period after native populations had already been put under severe pressure from white settlements, disease, starvation and war with the European invaders. Native complicity in both the Buffalo hunt and the fur trade are cited as well as native participation, post contact, in several other extinctions or near extinctions.

Growing out of this, but not necessarily as a result of it, has been a move to suggest that natives, since they don’t actually exhibit the traditional respect for nature and the environment from pre-contact evidence (and this is disputed by many – not to least First Nations writers and thinkers) have actually had these characteristics placed upon them like a mantle which they have then adopted as part of a political process to:
1.further their rights to land claims and resources; and
2.assert that they have a tradition of mindful administration of the resources of their lands which they have never surrendered; and
3.give to their religious and cultural practices a legitimacy and seriousness that would otherwise be classed as primitive, out-grown and, frankly pagan; and
4.help make the case that they have actual ‘rights’ to land and resources which should be reflected in formal legal and economic relationships between native ‘nations’ and the dominant culture and government.
(cont'd below)

conclusion

Thus, according to this interpretation, the native peoples of this continent are just one of many successive waves of immigrants (who came here via the land bridge from Asia) and who have, in the time-honoured tradition of colonial practice, been supplanted and over-run by the more evolved (or at least more technically sophisticated) white folks who came here and defeated them after 1492.

So, you can see why neoconservatives might be attracted to the theory. Moreover, you’d be right. It is exactly the same people who argue against native entitlements to land and resources and self-government who are most supportive of the theory Colin mentions. I don’t think Colin, in fairness, adopts the most egregious aspects of this thinking which is, in effect, that native peoples have no different rights than any other citizen and that they must, if they wish to survive in the modern world, snap to it and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Typical Neocon Social Darwinism, imo.

That’s where the analogy with the Holocaust comes in. The native peoples of North America in 1492 numbered, from best estimates somewhere between 57 and 112 million souls. We all know how many of the descendants of these people live in North America today; at best a handful of millions. To call what happened in the intervening period is not, from my point of view, ‘unworthy’ of the label genocide. Therefore, my analogy with the Germans and the Jews. The difference is that we, notionally descendants of the European populations who colonized this continent, are the stand-ins for the Nazis who decimated the Jews between 1939 and 1945. Unlike the Nazis though, we won the war and are therefore justified, according to one sort of neocon theory, in treating the natives the way they are suggesting we should do.

Colin, of course, mentions that native rights to land are recognized by both treaty and the Constitution and I agree. I’d only add that it is a good thing!

This is very long and yet it still glosses over some important points – I hope it helps and I hope anyone who recognizes what may be huge omissions in this explanation will be forgiving.

G West: Thank you for taking the time to explain so well your former comments. It was both interesting and thought provoking...cool

Colin: I appreciate you comments earlier...TY

G West, your comments on pre\post FN attitudes towards the land was a mind stretch indeed. I believe I will get some reading done this weekend on some of your points made on this blog. I may be "back at cha" in a bit.

IMHO today I should add, as I am always open to new truths from intelligent people. The FN people posess a mantra which prioritise "gratitude", and lived it accordingly. (BTW, we all know there is exceptions to this as in other societies). I am sure other cultures were grateful as well, but the FN people integrated it in EVERY aspect of their lives. FN art alone suggests their love and respect for the earth and her extended communities. I have been sculpting for years... and I believe art is the extension of the heart...cool.

Anyways, thanks again, and for me there will be much reading this weekend...

Peace...RTB

RTB
merci.
I think, as you've put it without actually saying it, that we have a lot to learn from FN. And I completely agree with your observations about Indian art.

Even, as Colin suggests in a somewhat different context, the Six Nations confederacy is suggested, in some writings, as a better source of modern democratic principles and cooperation than the Enlightenment models postulated by most European historians.
Another good book you might look at, if you're still interested is by Ronald Wright titled, Stolen Continents: The “New World” Through Indian Eyes Since 1942.
In the end, I think Indian religious practices and their fundamental identification with animals and the natural world is a better refutation of the theory we’ve been discussing than anything presented by archeology and, as I said before, speculative anthropology in its favour.
Peace to you too.

Right to Bear
Glad it was some help. I agree with Alcibiades suggestion for further reading, by the way.
Cheers

Alcibiades and G West,

Thank you,

I want to mention that I very much appreciate your understanding of my "spirit of intent" on this blog...cool. I will indeed be picking up the suggested reading material... can hardly wait actually. :-)

BFN...

RTB

RTB
Should point out, despite Alcibiades usual penchant for accuracy, that he's got Wright's title slightly wrong it's 1492, not 1942..obviously.
Thx for your generosity of spirit.
Cheers.

What about codfish?
We eat them, they suffocate on boat decks and bleed to death, but the RW nutbar Bardot cares not. And Paul M., he just looks stupid on the ice next to an unseen herd of star-handlers.
If someone needs to protest the death of the cute animals, go for it. But don't expect an increase in credibility from the public just because you hooked up with one of your media heros. Expect a decrease of credibility, which makes me wonder if Watson has lost his heading.
The emotional aspect of this coupled with the condescending use of stars, dim or not, must make the author go to bed feeling great. Seals slaughter thousands of helpless and oh so cute codfish. Seals tear their little unsuspecting bellies out first, then chomp down the rest of the twitching corpse, evil little cute seals that they are. Lets get that on film, and use Paul M's yellow sub.
Kill a seal, save hundreads of endangered yet profoundly ugly and unmarketable codfish profiles.

Hi DavidN,

IMO we all work within our sphere of influence (what-ever that may be). If anyone feels strong about an issue, such as yourself, you attempt to help people see "it" your way in hopes of promoting change in accordance to your understanding. When a person reaches, as we say, a "celebrity" status, is this the point that they are suppose to shut-up?? If so, why...?

On the issue of Cod-eating seals, my understanding is cod only makes up for and average of 3% of the harp\hooded seals diet. If fact much of their diet relys on squid. Intersting point here, is squid's diet is mostly made up of cod...hummmm. Something to think about...

We have to believe that this hunt continues mostly because of both "tradition" and gov't EI policy. I have alway felt that if a particular "tradition", does not make sense in the present day, we need to be brave enough to let it go. Concerning the EI, this policy has to be changed and updated as well... Many Candians are inconsolable when it comes to the concept of their tax dollars going towards this pathetic Canadian make work program...In short IMHO, it is not good for us DavidN...

Peace,

RTB

It is early...sorry about this. The 2nd sentence in the 2nd paragraph is "in" fact...RTB

Right to Bear
Interesting fact about EI. If I'm not mistaken the account has several 'Billions' of bucks sitting in it and has run an annual operational surplus for the past several years. One has to wonder if some re-allocation of those funds wouldn't be a way to address regional issues like the sealers and their annual income. That's not to say a handout is the right way to go but all those ads skewering the whole country for the seal thing can't be good. Of course it is hypocritical and two-faced and doesn't really look at cull issues and the situation with respect to the inshore cod fishery. But, in the end, someone should be addressing the fundamental issue that a lot of out port Newfoundland has been shafted for years. Taking away the seal hunt won't help them but preserving it isn't doing much to address the medium and long-term plight of people who have relied on the fishery for generations either.
Dancing around the issue like this every year is just plain stupid…and there is no way that the sealers can ever win this argument – not because their cause isn’t just and reasonable – but because the facts don’t matter once emotions and the mass media come into play.

Hi Alcibiades

The book is on order...cool and thanks!

Yes, I would like to see a reallocation of these funds to help these people during a transitional time if\when the seal hunt is stopped. This industry does not work on any level...

I was speaking to the head of a large oil co. in Alberta today, and he suggested a training program for the people in NFL (sealers and fishermen)and to bring them into the "fold" so to speak, in the Alberta Oil Sands Project. They would be payed very well, and if they are still employed with the oil co. in 5 years, the co. would give them title of the home they have been living in. (Obvioulsy the home is owned by the co.) They could almost retire in 5 to 10 years and then live where they want at that point...

I have to say however, I am sad about the O.S. project in Alberta. The evident sale out of the Great Alberta Boreal is pathetic. As it is the boreal will be lost to industry, along with the caribou, song birds and many other
wonderful species. Another blog perhaps...

Anyways, perfect solution...?? Perhaps perfection is "reserved for the gods"??

A few thought provoking ideas though Alcibiades, that perhaps implemented could alter the existing path of the sealing\fishing industry, as it is NOT on an acceptable path at this time to be sure...

Peace.

RTB

peace to you as well - hope you enjoy the book, I know you'll learn something from it.
Alcibiades