How very interesting that class size does'nt matter too much when talking about public education,yet is THE number one selling point of private schools.It seems a certain segment of society wants to take their ball and go home to their gated community,and they want you to pay for it.Public schools are good places to educate workers for their factories,but my kids are'nt attending an ESL school.When this country was formed,ALL the political parties agreed that quality education for everyone was a fundamental corner stone for a strong and prosperous nation.The moment we allow people to opt out of the system and take their education tax dollars with them,will truely be the end of quality public education.

Good stuff on the class size issues, but Gutstein loses credibility with me for implying if a Canwest piece is fair and balanced, it's brave reportage by a lone individual sticking out, but if a story slants, it's gotta be coming straight from Dennis Skulsky's desk, if not Gordon Campbell's. Without any actual sourcing from those inside the newsrooms, he gets to put whatever interpretation he wants on why a story ran (or ran the way it did), and makes himself as suspect a partisan as Canwest. Hey, Mr. Beers: surely you can find him a little corroborating evidence to back him up -- or maybe find a better media critic. In a polarized and hyper-concentrated media market like Vancouver, it's sadly needed.

Thanks, Gutstein! You've made my day.

bc mary - touche. rafe has fallen back to his socred roots. perhaps trolling for work with david asper?

canwest and corel are simply arms of this lying govt.

or, is the lying govt an arm of canwest?

i used to read michael smyth now and then.

during the election, he showed his true colours as a shill for the establishment.

i urge every thinking person to call david asper and cancel your newspaper subscription.

you will lose nothing.

Public money should be removed completely from private schools. The purpose of collecting school taxes is for the promotion of the public good; not the promotion of numerous private or religious agendas.

Private schools who receive public money can refuse students who underperform, thus slanting their test results. They can teach hatred and non-science as part of their basic charters. Some of them have been tied to terrorist organizations, and others have been implicated in systematic coverups of childhood sexual and physical abuse by teachers and administrators. They drain money that could go into improving the public system, which, for all of it's faults, is an agency for bringing our disparate communities together and encouraging the common good.

Why then am I being forced to support them?

I have no children, but have never felt badly about paying public school taxes. Public schools are for the public good. They are often the only place where children learn to balance their own views against those of the larger world. This makes for better adults. Public funding of private schooling erodes the greater good that schools can do.

If you look at the Fraser Institute School Rankings you will also notice that private schools do not take special needs students. there is a listing for percentage of special needs in the school. Low class size and no disruptions equals higher marks. The popularity of french Immersion is due to similar reasoning. french Immersion callses don't include special needs or ESL students.

Once again CanWest won, at the first chance the teachers took whatever crumb was thrown at them. Bill 12 is still on the books and the government pays for any small increase in funding out of saved teacher wages. It's very sad that we think this media is so powerful, if fact their outrage was beginning to subside with the public opinion polls. Even with all the propaganda the polls supported the teachers, every time you heard the word teacher they attached illegal to it. No debate just illegal, illegal , nothing about the value of the law etc or how the courts were manipulated etc for political ends.

I use the same tactic, everytime I see someone reading the Sun or Province I laugh and say how is the embedded media or corp media today. I would never buy a paper in this city, we must find ways to attack the regulators and corp charters of these folks. I have one tactic that works.

If you hear blatant , violent or racist comments on CKNW or others just report the to the CBSC Canadian Broadcast Standards council. Fill out a complaint form, the station has to respond to you which is a cost to them, you can then accept their response or appeal it which is a further cost. Image if
they get bogged down doing this .

http://www.cbsc.ca/english/faqs/index.htm

I hope that filthy canwest comes up where I live to masaquerade real-estate pimping for actual news. They love elitist million-dollar house stories as opposed to the miniscule coverage over the recent train derailments, one which killed untold wildlife in our rivers.
Imagine if the NDP had been in government at the time.
I guess the corporate thieves who live in million dollars houses are the same demographic who will send their children to private schools.

In terms of funding, (with the exception of special needs students) private schools get at most 50% of the yearly funding the public school district that they reside in, on a per pupil basis. Is the school district get $1 per student, the private school gets 50 cents. This is operational money - private schools get zero for capital projects (i.e. building schools and facilities). The remainder of the money comes from private school fees.

Whether or not you agree with private schools, it does cost the government less per student. If you abolished private schools, there would be less money per student than there is today (and don't even think about building schools to house them all).
More info here, courtesy of CUPE.

Just quote the incident , show and date and voice your complaint . Click on the link in my previous post and you will see making a complaint in the left hand column. Come on , its easy and fun , injustice unchallenged is injustice that continues.

As with war, so the unions are coming out calling this a social war, truth is the first casualty.

Sad to say that I do not read any print media any more, as they cannot spare the space nor time to support their arguments (with fully detailed poll results etc).

Television is furniture, and I ask,
"Would you take any advice from your couch?"

Expect more struggle over all of the 'professional' unions, this is due to the fact that within the organizations merit is of less value than time-in. So long as the merits of the best indiviuals of these organizations continue to be 'beaten-down' then so much more they will rail against those laws and means that keep them 'beaten'.

Sadly the very best will recognize that it is easier to leave the situation than fight on. They will leave and we will be left with less.

NorthshoreEd-think of private schools as a way of raising taxes and you feel good about it. You pay school taxes right. Now lets say 50% of that goes to a private school and you also pay extra to the private school, so you have paid your taxes and paid extra to the private school. The government saves and also gets more money out of you and you feel good about it.

to "burner" 58 minutes ago

what took you so long?... i cancelled mine 4 years ago.

incidently, "Dave A" is NOT an acronym for David Asper!

"Whether or not you agree with private schools, it does cost the government less per student. If you abolished private schools, there would be less money per student than there is today (and don't even think about building schools to house them all)."

First, if the gov't is paying 50% of those students' operating costs then its not private, its public school.

Second, that 50% is buying small class sizes. The gov't would be fine putting those 18 kids into a public school class of 32 or whatever. After all, the public system won't provide the same level of resources so the gov't won't be losing money.

Third, there is a decling enrollment in the public system so the gov't would not have to build any new schools. Perhaps it could simply keep existing schools open.

OPINION I think descrbing Baldrey's coverage as equivalent to Willcock's, is wrong, and an insult to Willcocks.

FACT- The following is an exchange of e-mail I had recently with a reporter at the Vancouver Sun:

Me-

"You write

The teachers, who demanded a 15 per-cent raise, limits on class sizes and more resources to help special-need students, began the illegal strike Oct.7 after the government imposed a wage freeze contract.

"Imposed" is the correct verb to describe what the government did. "Demanded" is not the correct verb to descrribe what the teachers did. They "asked for", or "requested". Yet you, and every other reporter continues to refer to the teacher's "demands". I think you should stop it."

Reporter's reply:

"That paragaraph was added by my editors without my knowledge. I wouldn't have used the word "demanded" because the request for a pay increase started at "fair and reasonable", moved to 15 per cent and then moved back to "fair and reaonable". I was a bit taken aback by the language in that paragraph and found it jarring."

The second post in this thread from "squishy" says:

Good stuff on the class size issues, but Gutstein loses credibility with me for implying if a Canwest piece is fair and balanced, it's brave reportage by a lone individual sticking out, but if a story slants, it's gotta be coming straight from Dennis Skulsky's desk, if not Gordon Campbell's. Without any actual sourcing from those inside the newsrooms, he gets to put whatever interpretation he wants on why a story ran (or ran the way it did), and makes himself as suspect a partisan as Canwest. Hey, Mr. Beers: surely you can find him a little corroborating evidence to back him up ...

So squishy- does the above meet your test of corroborating evidence? You decide- "fair and balanced" from Skulsky's desk? What a joke, unless you thing Fox News really is "fair and balanced."

Some of that was good, some of that was B.S.

injustice unchallenged is injustice that continues.

you are so right stuart.

who can you blame when injustice goes unchallenged.

only yourself.

so stand up and issue a challenge, before all that is left, is to whine about your inaction.

dave a - i would never mistake your thread for one from david asper.

i have not bought anything from canwest for years.

the only thing they have that is of interest, is the crossword in the sun. they get it from the ny times.

as for the govt support of provate schools - why should taxpayers support the education of children of the wealthy?

every cent of that money should be recovered from the parents of those children in private schools in bc.

as well as every cent paid since the lieberals were elected.

gordo and krusty the kabinet minister, as well as the invisible woman, the ed minister, should spend some time in real classrooms.

not one of them has a clue about what goes on in a classroom.

they think a special ed student needs only a ramp, a wider door, and handrails by the toilet, to become a regular student.

our most important resource, the education of our youth, is controlled, at the top, by liars.

gordo is drunk on power, bond is doing as she is told, and krusty de jong is so caught up in being a media star, i bet he thinks he could be premier.

he does not even see that he is headed the way of christy clark.

injustice must be challenged, every time, everywhere.

otherwise, freedom is lost.

The last defence is less the police and the courts, than an honest media and well-informed public.

The goal of anti-social governments and their media handmaidens has been to keep politics out of school (read politics of the left)and is anathema to a full education.

If I were a teacher today, The Role of the Media would certainly be on my curriculum. There is no shortage of material.

An excellent lesson in spin and bias is presented by recent issues of The Province following an editorial 27 Oct, re: the police killing of a 16-year-old joyriding youth. See reader response in the three following issues of the paper.(Suggest library or blue boxes)

A useful exercise might be to have a class read such an editorial where What do you think? is asked, and then compose their own responses to it without having seen the published letters. Discussion of comparative views would, of course, follow.

wstander: Yes, that does meet the test. I have no doubt editors and their higher-ups meddle in reporters' copy to suit certain agendas (cf. Marc Edge's excellent book "Pacific Press" on Province editor-in-chief Michael Cooke slanting the paper's front page during the 2000 federal election towards the Alliance as one good example). Worse still are reporters and editors who self-censor or self-slant in anticipation of possible blowback from their bosses on politically sensitive stories. My problem with Gutstein is that he doesn't pony up the goods, like you did. He reads the papers and just assumes four legs good, two legs bad. Media criticism is important -- perhaps nowhere moreso than B.C. -- and it has to be done properly to be effective. The Tyee is a great place for that to happen.

wstander, don't get you knickers in such a knot about "demands".

A union negotiator who "asked" for something would be asked to hit the road if he or she was representing me and, I suspect, a great many others.

While it may not have that nice, soft and inoffensive ring to it that would satisfy the "creme-de-la-creme" who hate unionized teachers anyway, it is perfectly accurate.

When you ask for something you are liable to be told "no" without any ands, ifs or buts required for clarification. End of request and what else will you ask for?

Teachers demanded, which is not only their right, but the correct way to negotiate.

Quit worrying what the timid or the union haters may think.

Thanks again to Donald Gustein for another balanced look at media coverage in Vancouver.

My only disappointment is that Gutstein didn't look more deeply in the coverage offered by the Globe&Mail.

I thought Rod Micklebourgh's (sp?) who has written on the labour beat when there was such a thing in Canadian media, was balanced, but I would urge G&M editors to consider sending Gary Mason back to the minors until he realizes there are not supposed to be home-town team rooters covering labour issues.

Mason's copy, which was almost void of any direct quotes, but filled with more cliches than a fight-filled hockey story, left me with the impression Gordon Campbell is the captain of the Vancouver Canucks.

Jinny Sims was painted as a thug who would certainly intimidate that misunderstood lamb who calls himself Todd Bertuzzi.

Mason simply doesn't appear to have the ability, or desire, to get beyond the we and them and it truly has me questioning the reason I read what I thought was a better newspaper than the one he used to scribe at.

The irony, of course, is that Micklebourgh also wrote for that same Vancouver monopoly, but left with a sense of balance still intact.

CanWest is the worst, all of their articles have to go threw Winnipeg head office before print time . My favorites are the ghost writers in the editorial section, some unsigned editorials right from the head office(corporate soap box) . It's hard to believe we think ourselves such a free society and still tolerate this media concentration.

CanWest is attacking our democracy and misleading the public and causing great harm by propping up the most violent governments in Canadian history. We should be fighting back against this
http://www.adbusters.org/metas/corpo/canwestwatch/

and building up a vibrant democratic media, support independent media like the tyee
and CFRO 102.7 FM , we should also be demanding more public time on the corp media,
take back the lines we paid for.

I buy the big fat Saturday edition of Vancouver Sun because

* I don't think CanWest would even notice if I never bought one of their rotten rags

* I hold my nose and read every damn item on every damn page, collecting the worst examples of CanWest "news", with which someday I hope to make a challenge to their legitimacy.

My prize specimen so far is the Harvey Enchin story on 16 July 05 in which he blamed the 2-person Opposition for blackening the name of the B.C. Liberals. He says Joy & Jenny called them "rightwing (oh sob!) monsters!" and says it's all their fault that this reputation stuck!! (Cheez, which daily newspaper printed that??) And he offers sober advice to the Campbell Government on how to thwart the Opposition's diabolical skills. That's my favourite.

Why do I torture myself? Because I figure we need to study CanWest Global before we can hope to civilize them. Then we need to write to the Editor (hopeless). To individual journalists (the best avenue for dialogue). To their "Sound Off" section (utterly, utterly useless). Why? Because newspapers count these reactions.

Some newspapers like Toronto Star show the tally once a week on how many letters they received on 4 or 5 given news topics. And occasionally you'll be published. My views on the CBC strike were published in two Letters-to-the-Editor within 3 days recently: Globe & Mail, and Toronto Star. So it's not in vain. How else can we challenge injustice?

But I admit: I've never been published in Vancouver Sun, never. All we can do is watch them, prod them, irritate them. A free press is worth caring about.

allan, the fact that a union negotiator refers to his or her request as a demand does not excuse the press from reporting that "request" as a "demand", especially when the report is a retrospective look at what happened. "Demands" are made by people who can enforce their requests with authority, either legal or brute force- such as the BC government. Apart from that, I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post.

My father fled Yugoslavia in 1951 after fighting for Tito as a Partisan (which had Communist ideals) in WW2. He left becasuse the state controlled all sources of information. He felt that without access to all sides of an issue you couldn't make an idependent conclusion about anything. One sided info means you reach the decision that the giver of that info wants you to make. In other words. You have lost your freedom.

No, don't remove money from private schools, but mandate the requirement that they must accept special needs pupils in exchange for that money---just like everyone else.

burner urges:

I'm happy to report I did that 2 years ago. And I refuse to watch CanWest TV news.

I agree that Willcocks is among the very few who sincerely tries to be fair. But the Sun's main education reporter, Janet Steffenhagen, sets the overall tone in shamelessly promoting the CanWest/Fraser Institute agenda as echoed by Michael Cambell, Fazil Mihlar et al.

And that agenda basically calls for convincing most British Columbians that their poisonous "medicine" will actually improve public education, instead of killing it off in pursuit of their "commitment to small government and individual freedom."

Thus, virtually every CanWest news story & editorial revolves around one of the following basic Fraser Institute/CanWest/BC Liberal/NPA education messages, roughly summed up below with their translations:

1) Smaller classes don't help students--pack 'em in. TRANSLATION: Spend those dollars on tax cuts or private schools instead; when public school kids fail or appear to fail, it will justify Point 2.

2) Throwing more money at public education is not the answer--we're spending more on schools than ever before. TRANSLATION: Public education is a failure, privatize it & spend the savings on tax cuts.

3) Teachers are evil, their union is eviller and Jinny Sims is the evilist evil teacher ever. TRANSLATION: The collective might of unionized teachers is the main obstacle to achieving #1 & #2, so they must be destroyed or broken.

...and the latest party line, for those who haven't yet noticed.

4) Local elected school boards are inefficient--dump them and regionalize the boards. TRANSLATION: Elected trustees are the second biggest obstacle to dismantling public education and must also be removed.

The desired outcome, as clearly elaborated by the Fraser Institute, is to privatize the system, thus achieving the "commitment to small government and individual freedom" that CanWest has publicly espoused. The rich will have the freedom to indoctrinate their children in the private school of their choice, and the poor.... who cares as long as we don't have to pay and we have enough laws and police to keep them at bay?

Vancouver Sun, Province, and Global TV - all owned by the same company, supporting the Liberal agenda, manipulating the news and manufacturing opinion. This should come as no surprise to anyone who takes the time to research political issues from a non-partisan view.
If we really want to make an impact on this monopoly 'news' group, then I suggest we all stop buying the papers and avoid watching their TV station. Since they're funded by those who are never going to let them reassess their policies, finding alternatives will weaken their ability to manipulate the news and thereby support other 'voices' in our communities.
The Tyee is a good start.

Once again I am struck by how easy it is to write "CanWest" instead of "news media" and be perfectly accurate.

We've got one-party government with its own compliant press — a perfect Cold-War description of Communism's dark side. How did we accept this but pass on the benefits, among them a quality public education system that serves all citizens?

We don't like to think of ourselves as being in any way comparable to those ugly examples of totalitarianism, but the comparisons are becoming uncomfortably close, and not just here, but in the U.S., despite their far stricter rules against concentration of media ownership.

BC Mary

Surely, you jest. Surely, this was the spiel of a stand-up comedien - if not, could have been.

At times the bias is so obvious, than one has to believe that the media believes its dumbing-down campaign has succeeded. Alternatively, it's not my wish to alert CanWest, but there is the chance that it's been infiltrated by moles.

Thanks for a good laugh, BC Mary.

I can remember a long while back watching the news hour and jas johal was reporting on a violent attack on a women. What really go me was that his last point regarding the attack was that no only was the woman a prostitute but that she was dressed provocatively - I can't remember his exact wording but the image that his "reporting" left was obvious.

Donald is a joke. We can now judge biased journalism based on ole Donny personal political views. If he agrees with the reporter, they are doing a wonderful job. If he disagrees with the reporter they are towing the corporate line in order further there personal agenda.

If they dare ask a tough question of unions they must be biased. After all we all know unions can do no wrong and everything is the governments fault. The saintly BCTF should never get asked tough questions. Tough questions of the unions equals biased journalism. Tough questions of government equals exceptional journalism. The pattern of bias is becoming abundantly clear.

You’re a joke and these biased media reports coming from the most biased “reporter” from the most biased news source in BC is a little much. Why don’t you go over how the tyee got a NDP candidate whose campaign was partially funded by the BCTF writing a story on how “parents were supporting the teachers” as a example of biased journalism?

Where are the studies that show a class size of 28 is better for learning than a class of 32? Please post some links on here to so we can look at them. You say a BCTF’s researcher is 100% right and his word should be treated as gold, yet someone from Stanford is biased and can’t be trusted. So someone who gets paid by the BCTF is towing the BCTF line during a dispute. NO WAY. Isn’t that a conflict of interest? If you were really doing your job that would be an example of media bias not facts supporting your argument.

Hypocrites.

These media check pieces must be a joke.

So JIm, anything that criticizes the MSM or attempts to balance so called reporting by the canwest gang is hypocritical eh? we should just accept all the news that we can possibly digest and never, ever question its validity, or wonder if the the whole story is being told? We should never offer coutnerpoints or attempt to fill in the gaps? That, JIm, is a joke. You've got some validity issues with the stories or opinions that you read on this site? Then by all means, offer a constructive retort. But please don't sit there and shout hypocrites!, it's an incredibly weak point of view to take.

Okay we all know CanWest and Corus Radio network are bias to the ruling class. But the good news is that the MSM ratings are plummeting around the globe to a more educated and cynical public. Blogging and the internet
and alternative media are making an impact. When something is reported enough in the alternative press the MSM has to end up covering it to (of course with a little spin) or seem bias. Remember that's the trick of the MSM , to appear "fair and balanced" while supporting the status quo.

In fact I think it was the Tyee who uncovered the story that was eventually covered in the MSM regarding the BC Liberals funneling money threw the cities without their knowledge.

So once the news is out their everywhere the MSM has no choice but to mention it, in doing this we discredit the MSM for not getting the story sooner.

We must tear down the MSM, dissent and encourage others to do the same.
Pick your poison 1) Use the courts for fun, take any untrue statements and sue for libel.
2) Hit them with the regulators, report them for bias and racist or untrue comments. see my above posts
3) Boycott, start a group and go after their advertisers. (even if you don't have a group business gets scared
when they get the calls or email)
4) Lobby the CRTC and other regulators for more public air time.
5) Whenever possible, discredit them , anyone you see reading them or repeating their message, laugh and explain you position. Example ---- Oh my god you must listen to red neck radio CKNW

If we are to tear down we must find an alternative. SOOOOO support independent media, start your own or support existing independent media.

My funny example

Just before the last election stats can and other agencies published a report proving that the homeless count in BC has double in the last 3 yrs. The MSM said that this was due to the booming economy and folks just were moving to BC on mass for the many opportunities.
2) Many folks like the climate in BC, ideal for the homeless and they move here for that.
( so if its climate when the surge now, is it global warming that brings folks)

The tyee was started with funding from the BC Fed. http://www.langara.bc.ca/ljr/LJR2004/beers.html

The BCTF is a member of the BC Fed.

The Tyee prints exclusively pro BCTF articles.

Where is the media check?

Sorry about the typo's

The MSM has done an awesome job of indoctrinating the public , many folks aka Jimmy have been listening to the same message for so long its hard to compute any other, in fact many folks become quite defensive when their beliefs are challenged. I can almost hear the talking points coming right out
of CKNW via their audience, its like pulling a string on the back of their necks. It's like the FOX viewer in the US, a recent study showed that the more folks watched FOX the more uniformed and ignorant of history
they were. Their was been a huge effort to control the message, funny how CKNW has 6 main radio personalities and all supported RAV no questions asked.

Also funny how a Glenn Clarke porch Reno where we paid for supplies but not labour got months of play while a raid on the finance ministers office and allegations of organized crime money laundering and ministerial aid's
getting arrested hardly got a weeks review. Every minister (Collins, Clarke, Virk ) who dealt with the BC rail deal left politics. More time to spend with family, like running an airline or running for mayor of Vancouver.

Bill Good, Peter Warren, Phillip Till, Lacomb, Berner, can anyone find one left wing reported on any station in town.

You see any alternative news that is not status quo is viewed as bias by the right, why are they so scared, must have something to hide, does anyone want to talk tax cuts and fairness.

"you’re a joke and these biased media reports coming from the most biased “reporter” from the most biased news source in BC is a little much. "

... and yet you're still here Jim. Why might that be? Is it because you are free to say your piece, unfiltered and unedited?

Bottom line, the union (BCTF) screwed up, plain and simple. The media slant, which was spinning both ways as far as I could tell, was easily disproved or qualified, thanks to Bloggers and the Internet. But when militant union 'Queen Bee' Jinny Simms ordered the teachers (Drones) to break the law, for the red herring called 'class size' the shark was jumped. Simms of all people should be the first to resign for damaging the cause of edication for a generation, for what, they are no further ahead than before, with their credability in complete tatters. As Forrest Gump said, 'Stupid is as stupid does".

Jeez markalanwhittle, you forgot to add "'nuff said" at the end of your post!

"If he agrees with the reporter, they are doing a wonderful job."

Jim, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension. No where does Gutstein state his personal opinions on the teachers strike, or condemn those with whom he disagrees. This piece is about balance, or lack there of.

This statement doesn't exactly jive with what you're claiming:

"Like Baldrey and Willcocks, some CanWest commentators provided balanced and fair observations during the two-week long teacher-government stand-off."

Thank you, JIm, we'll add you to the pro-tax cuts list, along with Ron, SDGreen et al.

From now on, you can all spare us the hysterics and just cut and paste the following comment every time someone dares to challenge the CanWest/BC Liberal/NPA/Fraser Instute's "less is more" education agenda.

"Screw the kids, we want tax cuts. Privatize the schools or just blow 'em all to hell, along with the &*%$# BCTF and the elected trustees. Anyone who disagrees is a stupid commie pinko joke."

I have to say that this time Gutstein's piece is amusing in regards to Keith Baldrey.

For just one example... while praising Baldrey for being fair and balanced and at the same time highlighting the need for more diverse assessments of class size issues, he completely overlooks how Baldrey's observations in this regard were noticeably absent of logic in that Baldrey does not even seem to understand how the class size debate relates to learning conditions. Read John Malcolmson's piece in the Tyee "Baldrey Muffs Test on Teachers' Strike".

Baldrey is not a reporter, for those above referring to him as such.... unless you think reporting is the same as opinion...

on Teachers' Strike: written by Keith Baldrey:
Richmond News, Oct 25, 2005.
The NOW Newspaper, Oct.19, 2005.
The Abbotsford Times, Aug.4, 2005.
The Maple Ridge Times, May 4, 2005.
Burnaby Now, Sept. 24, 2005.
Royal City Record, Oct. 26, 2005.
North Shore News, Oct.28, 2005.

( All the above owned by Canwest Media Group)

Should read:

Opinion pieces related to teachers or Teachers Strike written by Keith Baldrey:

As long as you believe everything a BC Fed sponsored website says about itself there is not much I can say. All I can say is I thought this is the type of influence that all of you are so against. It just seems kind of weird that you are so against the MSM because of so called behind the scenes bias, yet promote, to the death, a news source that does exactly what you say you hate.

So do you like or dislike biased journalism? If you dislike biased journalism you would not only be asking your questions about the MSM, you would be asking the same questions I’m asking about the tyee. Judging by your posts you don’t care about biased journalism, but care mostly about getting a “news” source in which YOU agree with.

...asks JIm.

By all means JIm, do your worse. If you're concerned that the tyee is brainwashing people then go ahead, offer some constructive criticism, pick apart the articles that are classified as news, question the facts offered. Convince us JIm, that the tyee is no better that the sun or province, then, and only then, can you stand on your soapbox and call us hypocrites.

The Tyee claims to be a 'progressive' mag. (although it sometimes has some very 'non-progressive' articles for some reason) Canwest makes no such claim about their bias, yet repeatedly twists the 'news'.

Left wing stuff is boring. That's why you never find many successful left wing talk shows.
I agree with Jim, these pantywaist writers who seem obsessed with Canwest Global are wimps.
It's actually an accute superiority complex that they have whereas the think everyone besides themselves are stupid.
Really, I am a consevative who reads The Guardian, New York Times, Toronto Star and I actually tune into the CBC sometimes.
We all need to see all points of view and we can then decide what we believe.
Like Fox News say's " we report, you decide "
Grow up, and realize just how biased most of you are.

Regardless of who funds or provides seed money to a media (by the way Mr. Beers has admitted several times to getting support via BC Fed, this is hardly a secret so stop acting clever) its the actions of that media that determine its credibility .We are our deeds, what Jimmy you fail to see is that the tyee respects all kinds of opinion from journalist with a wide background. I would hardly call Rafe Mair a die hard socialist or David Berner an NDP supporter( in fact he admitted to voting liberal on air) Unlike your heroes at CKNW and CanWest the tyee allows public debate and has Journalist with different backgrounds, I know any alternative view point upsets and scares you. But open your mind and please point out to us the flaws in the writers argument. The article points out the CanWest
flaws why can't you do the same. The tyee is about independent thought (its fun Jim if you try it) you know it is that's why you put down your province to visit us.

Anyone who is alive has an opinion and certain bias on different issues, I think what your afraid of is the fact that an alternative is starting to be heard, I wonder if CanWest would ever publish such a critical post by one of its readers. In fact I notice the intense censorship over its sound off Colum, when I complained the editor said he wanted to take the conversation in a new direction and people had already stated my point of view, Now that's democracy.

Hey JIm, reread my first post. I am critical of the Tyee for suggesting that the propogandist Baldrey should be equated with the real reporter Willcocks. So, see, I don't believe everything I read in the Tyee. And I certainly don't agree with the tripe that Mair wrote today, in the Tyee, about the teacher's strike.

Baldry gave one balanced report, around the time that it was settled. I was so amazed, I posted here about it. He is by far one of the worst offenders in his unmitigated cheerleading of the BC Libs. He revealed how close he was to them one day talking about how he went to highschool with Ms Clark. They're too incestuous. Combined with the only game in town being a neo-con rag it's a testament to the people of BC that we understand the issues at all. We prove it by usually voting the opposite of who they endorse.

A biased, unfair CanWest media would be tolerable if there was a competitive maketplace in print, radio, and television.

I never thought I'd say it, but I miss Conrad Black. Sigh.

Ron! Progressive talk shows are making a huge come back in the US. Our media is too confined to even begin one. I'd love to have a progressive radio station here. Please don't say CBC is, because it no longer is unbiased as it's being destroyed bit by bit by the neo-con lobby.

As it is, I listen to KGO 810am in the evening when it is progressive radio - the number one station in their listening area - Kiro710 and sometimes Air America.I don't think the ratings for The Daily Show are suffering.

At least TO has the Toronto Star. We're held hostage here.

Sorry Ronnie,

No one can touch Phil or Oprah, old time lefties.

"Watch your back, Phil Donahue; Oprah Winfrey's closing in on your record. The Queen of All Media announced Thursday that she'd signed a contract extension with syndicator King World for an additional three years, which will keep ''Oprah'' on the air through 2011. That'll mark the silver anniversary in nationwide distribution for the show, which went national in 1986. If she were to stay on for a 26th year, she'd tie Donahue's record as the longest-serving daytime talk host in national syndication."

Oh and bye the way Ron, its not you that's Stupid , its everyone else.LOL

Watching FOX news really tells allot about you buddy. "fair and balanced" just like you right Ron.

Well Ron, I am amazed we finally find common ground. :-)

redrivergirl don't forget CFRO 102.7 FM co op radio , our own independant media.

"A biased, unfair CanWest media would be tolerable if there was a competitive maketplace in print, radio, and television."

worth repeating.

wstander, thank you for the clarification on your "demand".

I now appreciate why you were so adament teachers were not demanding anything. It would be like swimming with your hands tied to your feet.

Still, teachers certainly managed to make a few good waves.

Thanks to Mulroney, Canada is virtually alone in the industrialized world in having no legislation to prevent the concentration of newspaper ownership or cross media concentration as he had The Business Council on National Issues, (now called The Canadian Council of Executives) draft the Competition Act...lovingly referred to in neo-con circles as the No Competition Act.

I'll check it out, Stuart.

Ron, Fox news has been PROVEN many times over that they are liars... that's not me talking.. it's fact

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=15331

We're 21 after falling. We'd be really low if it weren't for cbc etal.

Interesting site to look around!

And folks, this week we get a series on 6 pm. news on CTV on all the wonderful choices parents have in the private and home schooling arena. Why now? Bill Good seems to be particularly robust about this topic he can hardly wait to hear it air. I am sure it will be an unbiased, full account, but I can't help wondering, WHY? Will the motivation be apparent in Bill's verbal and body language?

ps. I you subscribe to the Province or Sun, you are perpetuating the right wing agenda and the biased media. Both papers are in trouble as their subscription numbers are falling. For god's sake, keep this trend going!

I agree with Lynn I hr ago. The concentration of media assets is uncontrolled and therefore dangerous. That is a huge danger for our society and culture. But to hear Gutstein use the rhetorical brush to tar the media back...well, it is hypocritical. Like greengreen, many people like meaningless one sided propoganda as long as it touts their cause. Otherwise they get mad and a bit paranoid apparently (look out for evil'Mr" RIGHT). Unions are big business people, they are also "the enemy" if you need it in those terms, the true Left disappeared from Canadian politics. Ever hear a union leader tout redistribution of wealth? Not likely. Sorry NDP and other market-capitalist union followers. Everybody get a grip, be objective and realize propoganda is propoganda. I cannot believe how many people eat up this garbage that Gutstein wrote.

JIm asks:

OK, do we really need more studies? I'm sure all sorts of people, on both sides of the political spectrum, coach kids' sports teams. Ask yourself, how effective is your soccer practice with 25 as opposed to 16 players? Would you mind running drills with 30 players (on just half a field and only 16 balls, mind you. READ: not enough seats in the classrooms and not enough textbooks)?

It seems to me, the parallels to classroom teaching are obvious (and, in the case of physical education classes, almost perfect). Most coaches of kids' soccer teams would raise bloody hell with their local associations if team sizes were permitted to go to 20 or more. Why would that be?

Could it be that the players wouldn't get enough playing time (READ: time on the Chemistry apparatus)? Could it be that there'd be plenty of idle standing around at practice waiting to execute drills (READ: teachers unable to get around to helping students with questions about the Math assignment)? Could it be that the coach could never individualize the coaching to work on particular players' specific skill deficiencies (READ: I think you get the picture)?

I know that in most local soccer associations, coaches would refuse to coach under those circumstances and most parents would be up in arms about not getting their money's worth for the yearly registration fees.

Does class size matter? Does team size matter?

THINK ABOUT IT!

Redriver girl
The cbc has never been unbiased.
And what is neocon (new conservative?)if not a huge union organisation leading a public sector monopolist business into our midst to give us 'their' view of the world. As opposed to Big Business (our favourite enemy) unions must be less evil? Less market capitalist? For the poor? Do you so desperately need a leader and failed to grasp that the enemy is actually more invasive than just "mega-corps" or "multinationals". Maybe you just like a specific flavour of propoganda. Both sides, as if this situation only had two, are quite fubar and not really interested in improving the human condition per se, not over their own ledgers.

In my opinion, Professor Gutstein provided a reasonably fair depiction of what happened vis-a-vis the media, reporting etc. during the recent teacher's/BC government negotiation.

There is little doubt in my mind that the 'media'/CanWest were piling on the teachers, however I do think Kieth Baldrey thawed out considerably from where he was at the time of the recent provincial election. I think Kieth is a very good reporter if his bosses will not push him to pander to Campbell so much. As for Mike Smyth, one has to consider that he is holding up the Province literally by himself, and that is likely why he has his show on Nightline, and the additional hyperbole on analysis.

Although he did scrape Ms. Sims a bit, he probably did her a favour because she came from relative obscurity and was pretty successful all things being considered. This may have helped her to keep some humility, when she was getting in a little bit of a funk/groove and I admit I was getting nervous for her that she wouldn't lose it. She did very well.

The Professor is quite correct about the headline stuff, it in no way captured even remotely what the parents, or the public were thinking as far as I am concerened. I admit feeling a little angry whenever I would hear it. We should do much better than that. For me some of this was more than just a little chilling.

From what we are finding out about where people get their 'news' it seems like 'what goes around comes around' is an apt way to describe the future of these news media fortunes. Voters on the left, centre left have left and most in the centre are leaving traditional news sources, while those on the 'quite right' (not slight right) don't use these news sources. Ron Erwin (I presume from reading him is quite right in his ideology) represents the chasm between slight right (who predominantly use these news sources) and quite right who don't anyhow.

In essence, Professor Gutstein is preaching (well) to the converted.

If they keep piling on, some companies might soon find out they are paying too much for their ads.

JIm, who owns this site and who owns CanWest or BellGlobeMedia is irrelevant if one is capable of distinguishing between solid journalism (Willcocks & usually Palmer & a few others at CanWest, Holman on Public Eye, Rod Mickelborough (Sp???) at the Globe, Gutstein at The Tyee, etc) and crap (Steffenhagen, Michael Campbell & most of the editorial staff at the Sun, Gary Mason at the Globe, Mair today on The Tyee, etc.)

And it has nothing to do with being left or right. Many people, me included, enjoyed both Norm Specter & Moe Sihota when they used to do their thing on New VI (the woman with the gavel--I forget her name--was another story!)

...now, if i could only get my wife to stop watching Canwest,(Tony's so cute and ,guess what?...he's getting married!

I'd say the teachers were treated pretty well by the media if you consider the following facts that were never released amid all this nonsense about class sizes being too large:
In Coquitlam the average kindergarten class has 18 students, the average grade 1-3 class has 21 students, and the average grade 4-12 class has 26 students.
Those are facts as compiled by the administrators in the district and reported to the BCTF during the illegal strike. That means that, at least statistically speaking, if there is a class with 36 students, there must also be one with 16. Don't hear the teachers complaining about that very often.

Hear, hear. It was a bad idea when the Mike Harcourt government bought it in and it's still a bad idea. Naturally the Libs are increasing funding for the private schools while sticking it to the public school teachers.

Here are my two-cent's worth...

Did you see the cheesy polar bear picture that replaced Bob Krieger's anti-Campbell cartoon in the Oct. 13th edition of The Province? (It was in The Tyee on Oct. 14.) I wrote Krieger, and he confirmed that the cartoon was pulled by the editor in chief (Wayne Moriarty) because he felt there were too many anti-Campbell cartoons by Krieger. Krieger was not happy about the situation, but there wasn't much he could do about it. Moriarty later emailed me and confirmed he pulled it for editorial reasons.

Second, did you notice that the story about the BC prosecutors (who felt they were in a conflict of interest re: teachers because they had their own arbitration squashed by the moving goalposts of the Liberal gov't) was never in The Province or The Sun? It was only in the alt press or the commuter press like MetroNews. Too bad, given that it was a key rebuttal to de Jong's laughable invocation of the "rule of law".

Like others on this list, I thought Vaughn Palmer and Willcox were a breath of fresh air. Not only did they try to show both sides, but they also did it without the cynicism that drips out of Michael Smyth or (less often) Keith Baldrey. At their worst, Smyth and Baldrey seems to assume everyone, at all times, act from the basest of motives. We all do, of course, but not all the time, and some more than others. Smyth's reductionism usually comes across as snide... and strangely naive.

Anyway, I thought that the 6pm BCTV news was somewhat even, and was better than CTV's local news. Even the CBC news seemed anti-teacher, and was obsessed with repeating the phrase "illegal strike" without exploring the teachers' response. Joel Bakan's guest op-ed in the Sun (regarding the UN's 9 rulings against the Liberals) was seen as a breakthrough by many of the teachers I talked to, and Harvey Oberfeld's follow-up the next night on BCTV had many of us very surprised. Then, CTV Newsnet interviewed a law professor from the Osgoode School of Law, and he was very anti-Liberal. You could have knocked me over with a feather! Given that BC's corporate media has largely ignored the ILO rulings (esp. in 2003, when many of the key rulings came down)it was a hopeful sign that a few of the players were trying to play fair. Or maybe they read the two generally pro-teacher opinion polls and decided that objectivity was in order!

So, the Sun deserves (some) credit [and that's a huge nod given their lead editorial stances and their "teachers as predators" campaign last year] and BCTV deserves (a surprising) amount of credit for fairness.

But I won't hold my breath that it will continue. In fact, CTV's current weeklong series on alternative education seems to be geared to avoiding public education. Sigh...

Elliot displaying profound ignorance:

Mathematically, you might be correct. Realistically, you haven't a clue. Suppose there is a class of 16. Let's just say, for the sake of this discussion, a Physics 12 class in a smaller school. In such a school, you might just have 16 students either willing to or capable of taking Physics 12.

Are you suggesting that (a) more students be required to take Physics 12 to make up an average of 26, or (b) that because of student choice with respect to Physics, some other teacher (and the students in her class) ought to be burdened with 36 students?

Spend a little time in schools, and you'll soon realise that your facile observations are just that: facile.

The Asper press is nothing more than a Liberal 'Pravda' just the news that fits, is printed.

The pro Liberal Vancouver Pravda will not report the truth and will continue to censor facts. Is this a paper we want in our schools?

Name: What makes Gutstein's work "solid journalism" to you?

for grub,

I would very much like to spend some time making my own observations of current schools, but sadly - even though I am a parent of school-aged children - I AM NOT PERMITTED IN THE SCHOOL WHILE CHILDREN ARE PRESENT.

Should I go in there I am immediately set upon by unionized staff and sent to the 'office' where I am then informed that I must present official reason for being present on school property or depart (upon pain of meeting the attached constable for appropriate charges).

This is FACT, I have done it, I have had official reason for my presence and was so 'manhandled' by the staff.

During an earlier conflict when the teachers had a spat with the district, I went in to the staff and displayed my credentials and volunteered as a provincial exam invigilator, as I did not want the senior high students to suffer having to go back for a 'remedial' year just because a particular bunch of hot head teachers wanted X Y & Z out of their current round of 'so-called' collective barganing. I was welcomed by the management, then refused once the CUPE cleaning staff realized what was going on.

Bottom line here is grub it is not possible to confirm or deny any FACTS in the schools as they are a closed environment. Closed so tight that parents are starting to look elsewhere as they are fed-up with no access and no accounting.

Sorry Ron but Air America is doing pretty well. Why, its even started beating Rush Limbaugh and your Fox blowhard in a few markets and continues to grow.

Elliot,

You don't think the teacher with the 36 should be complaining? How about the parents of those 36? Averages are the problem, not the solution.

The problem with class size numbers is that they are very easy to manipulate. One popular method is to divide the number of pupils by the number teachers in a school. Because of non-enroling teachers (such as librarians, counsellors, etc), and because of part-time teachers and preparation time, pupil/teacher ratios are often misleadingly low.

District ratios can be even worse, as staff at the district level are often thrown into the mix as "teachers" also.

I'm afraid such numbers too often fall into one or more of the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" categories.

The shift stunned grapeman is easily explainable - sustained 57 percent support for teachers. Newspapers/TV Media want to sell their product and once the "tipping point" was met that point where it looked like the battle for public opinion was going to be won by the teachers, they jumped on board. CTV Bill tipped his hand when he said "You may be surprised to hear that 57 percent of British Columbians support the BCTF." I submit that 57 percent of us WERE NOT surprised and it is they in their disconnected offices that were surprised.

murdoch, unfamiliar with the law, complains:

I sense you weren't keen on the teachers being out on an "illegal" strike most recently. So, what makes it OK for you to engage in illegal acts? Are you aware of what the law has to say about replacement workers?

Sorry, correction. The shift THAT stunned grapeman...

Grapeman, that was a fine summary. I felt the same way when Harvey Whathisface did the follow-through. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised that the CanWest Family Compact presented as balanced a series as it did.

But... the wierd thing is that, on the whole, the CanWest version of events is not aging well in my eyes.

Perhaps some of us were so totally bowled over by the occasional pro-educational spin that we got intoxicated in the belief that a real media existed.

Time will tell, I suppose.

murdock, clearly not one for protocol that ensures children's safety:

Do you wish to visit YOUR childrens' school. You know, I doubt very much that that would be a problem. So long as you don't want to meddle in the day-to-day operations.

Clearly you ought let the school administration know that you've come for a visit. Or are you suggesting that any Tom, Dick, or pervert ought to be able to roam the halls of our schools.

Back to the law: do you think that maybe there are laws and school board policies about "strangers" in schools. I bloody hope so!

Grub
is correct.
The system is not working well. Are there simply two sides to correct?
There is a system to correct. Who is it that shall correct it, certainly not a policical element alone. Should I trust big union or big business, and what is the difference? Both are primarily interested in their ledgers.
Who cares more about the education system over the rhetoric? Not sims or Campbell, who have their own legacies to contend with.
I am a soccer coach and can easily contend with an overabundance of players, not a problem. That is in fact a good thing. Hyperbole is a greater problem. Class size is a problem, as is the lack of assistants and materials in the classroom. The BCTF has failed to promote these issues over money, which is any unions or big businesses' primary interest. The BCTF got their hyperbolic butts licked and what we are hearing is grousing. The students lose again.

murdock:

First off, you ought to be happy insofar as the unionized staff were doing their job: they spotted a stranger and immediately alerted the management of the facility.

And management did their job. It is after all a school, not a zoo or a museum where people without official business can wander about interrupting the work at hand. Tell me, murdock would you want to be able to wander about in your local hospital without alerting the staff to your official business?

You say, "I have had official reason for my presence and was so 'manhandled' by the staff". I have to conclude that the management (principal or vice-principal) didn't buy your "official reason". They get paid the big bucks to make those executive decisions. Better luck next time.

DavidN, posturing and boasting:

BULLSHIT!

How can you ensure adequate playing time if you have 20-25 players on a soccer team? You're a fool!

Right on Grapeman & Davey boy.
The trap is anti-teacherism and such rhetoric.
It does not really exist, like, who would tell Bardeau that a seal Pup is not cute. No one. It is pure marketing. To say anti-teaecher is to say anti-child, while to say anti-government is somehow patriotic. We are as a population profoundly ignorant. Pro-union, pro-gov't, pro-seal-pup whatever, we have our sides and they deserve respect unfortunately while the answer usually lies elsewhere. We get bogged down in this simple minded two sided hyperbole. Does anyone say they are anti-child when they feel the teachers and/or gov't are not doing enough? No. As long as we the herd are left feeling profoundly one way or the other the win is there. No win here for the students but one for those that expect us to show our bias at the poles.
A real media exists regardless, we just are too dense as a community to recognize its form.

grub
Don't be thick. I can be creative, I can make new teams and leagues etc. and give these kids great soccer experience, please, give me this problem.

The teachers have a more complex problem that has not been addressed because the BCTF failed miserably in it's negotiations with a predictable and lethargic government. Sims blew it , mostly because she was hung up on herself I think.
Our education system needs work, and teachers need more input as do parents and (likely more probable) professionals. The teachers are in the 3rd most wealthy province anda are paid the third best. That gives me no issue.
What gives me issue is that the problem has become political grist.

Note to DavidN, actually, seal pups are really cute. I've never known anyone to say otherwise.

Frank
So was Bridgitte Bardeau if truth be known.
The Seal issue was more complex than a "pro-seal" issue for Newfoundlanders and others. Next time the BCTF should have Angelina Jolie hold up a BC student. That would work.
It was a parallel worth apologizing for, but I won't (respectfully).

The BCTF has failed to promote these issues, over money, which is any union or big business's primary interest.

The BCTF got their hyperbolic butts kicked and what we are hearing is grousing.

DavidN, I find it simply stunning you would try to link together contradictions like that.

First of all they certainly didn't fail to promote any of the issues you cite. Instead your government failed those issues and the students.

That you take such obvious pleasure in the difficulties teachers went through fight for improvements, shows how hollow and cynical your concerns about education issues are.

DavidN, you are a fraud as a citizen and ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Actually, I think DavidN is kind of refreshing, and quite right... Why would an abundance of players in soccer be a problem? Isn't a big turn-out every coach's dream? Shouldn't it be about what works and what doesn't work...what can be handled? Why is there a one fix solution for every problem.

Which is true. The settlement of this strike came at the expense of improved learning conditions...and allowed Bill 12 to live on in infamy.

While I hold a more sympathetic view of Sims, learning conditions definitely have not improved. Illusions are comforting but they are also held onto at the expense of real change.

Who knows the Angelina Jolie idea just might work. :-)

The teachers' strike proved to me that the public was much smarter than the media. The questions that were asked of me by friends and strangers alike were superior to anything that I saw on the news or read in the paper. Forget the rhetoric, the facts were on the teachers' side and that's why we had so much public support.

murdoch-you claim you have a child in the public school system.

Why the hatred of the very system that your child is participating in? You will find that a change in your attitude will go a long way. Instead of going to school with a bad attitude and a hot head, go in and volunteer your time. Help out. Be a loving parent. Your actions are teaching your child a bad lesson.

Don't keep putting down my public school system.

hopefully this issue between the teachers and the neanderthals running the province will open peoples eyes up to what is really going on.

To the soccer analogy, as someone who has played at higher levels (national-BC-University), I can assure you that there is little or no hope of developing a very good team with 25 (too many players).

Sometimes it is difficult to develop your best team when one or two players who are significantly more skilled than the others. Often you think you know where you team is, but you don't. That reality is sometimes obfuscated by the factor of the one or two 'better players'.

Recently, my ten year old daughter's soccer team which had been losing games by a goal, was regaining its form (a win and a tie) when they challenged another team with a very good track record. My daughter's team played without its 'star' player (and her yappy mom).

Well we won 4-0. The more 'average' girls played exceptionally well and did not defer to this 'star' player because she was not there. All of the girls on the team played above their head, or did they?

Perhaps the 'star' is the problem insofar as the overall success of the team is concerned.

Does this scenario in any way translate into the consideration of class composition as well?

grub,

In my professional work, I am at times charged with duties by courts, so my legal right to be present in the school was not challenged by the constable, in fact once I was pointed out (I went to the 'office' first but all the relevant staff were in 'meetings' so I got them out fast)

My point is, even at the school where my children did attend PARENTS were NOT PERMITTED in the classroom, other than the Kindergarden classes. Once my child goes into grade 1+ the UNION (I have fact checked this and will go back to find it in SD71) has rules that prevent any parent or guardian acting in any way within the school system.

Regarding your comment about scabs, I think that RIGHT TO WORK legislation must be passed. Unions may organize or not as those workers see fit. But closed shops are just not on, no more monopolies in education or anywhere else.

I have professionally instructed 14-18 year olds in groups as large as 45 with just myself as the instructor, alone, with firearms as the lesson materials. Ending with a live fire exercise. Final results: no injuries, no missing ammunition, no damaged weapons, 60% + achieving weapon competency with 2 students going on to provincial biathalon teams.

Your arguments regarding class size have merits in certain situations, but no way does it apply to all situations.

The skills and mertis of the studends AND their teacher must be taken into account. Since all are variables NO WAY can a UNIVERSAL system across the province be able to account for this.

crh

had, past tense, now homeschooling as the system is broken, my spouse and I have recognized it and have chosen to do something about it that we can do.

Learning is a lifelong process of acquiring knowlege and experience.

Education is the bureaucratic, administrative, suffocating processing of children through itself akin to grinding hamburger.

I have 'tried' to help out and volunteered many times during pre-school and kindergarden, seeing all of what was to come for my children. Then being directly TOLD that I cannot assist, partake, nor ever supervise my child in any way once grade 1 starts.

You ask if I am showing a good example or providing loving parenting.
I ask that of those parents who leave the job at the school doors?

I ask that you take the time to look into what 'your public school system' has become.

I have read grade 5 exams from the 1930's that look more like college entrance exams today.

In 1774 when Thomas Payne published Common Sense only a few million people lived in the 13 colonies, yet he sold more than 2 million copies, literacy rates were thought to be near 85% of the population (in a time when slavery was very present, yet they also could read). 200 years later in the 1970's it was estimated that less than 60% of the population could read, yet there had been an enforced school system since the 1870's (the truancy laws). My personal belief of why this was so is that no respect for lifelong learning was inculcated in children, they were simply 'sent' to school, just as criminal are 'sent' to prison.

I see a system that is run by its employees, for the benefit of those employees, to the detriment of its users (parents and children).

I still ask that we must create a system to release merit. Both of the best teachers and students, what we have now is not achieving this.

lynn thinks:

OK, this is not a forum for the discussion of what works or doesn't work in terms of coaching soccer. Permit me to just pursue this a bit as I still maintain the parallels to class size are significant.

Lynn asks: "Why would an abundance of players in soccer be a problem?" It isn't. So long as the soccer club or association provides enough teams, balls, fields, and coaches (READ: courses, textbooks, classrooms, and teachers). More participation (education) is clearly better than less.

Lynn further asks: "Isn't a big turn-out every coach's dream?" No! A big turn-out is every coach's nightmare. I'm going to over-simply the coahing of soccer here for purposes of my metaphor (let's not get off on a tangent over this one, eh, all you soccer experts out there): success in coaching soccer depends on "touches on the ball" for the players. In other words, in the realm of schooling, "active engagement" with the learning material.

If the soccer club has not supplied adequate resources (balls and fields, to keep things simple), then touches on the ball are limited. Ditto in education: reduce the number of resources and crowd too many students into limited numbers of classrooms and the intellectual "touches on the ball" in terms of active engagement are also reduced.

At game time, ideally a coach would like to maximize every player's time on the pitch (no kid wants to stand on the sidelines as a sub on blustery, rainy, November days). This is not possible with a huge turn-out. Every teacher wants to maximize student's active learning time: not possible with too many kids in a class.

sorry i missed you earlier, jim.

i always wonder why some people want the rules to fair when they don't get their way, but one sided when they do.

jim, you whine that the tyee prints articles that are biased.
but you do get to whine.

you whine that the tyee, and many of the threads here, are anti canworst and whore-us.

have you noticed that you cannot offer an opinion in either of those media groups, unlees, of course, it is their opinion.

and markalanwhittle, (i am too weak of character to resist thinking of you as markalanwitless),

what does this mean?

to paraphrase forrest 'stupid is as markalan does'.

Chris H said: "The teachers' strike proved to me that the public was much smarter than the media." I agree.

It's also interesting to note that a public opinion poll last year rated public trust in various sources of information on education issues. Teachers and their union scored at the top of the list, media and politicians low down, and the Fraser Institute was dead last!

"Japander" also said it a while back -- many reporters and columnists seemed genuinely shocked by polls showing strong parent support for teachers during the strike and they clearly began to change the tone of their reporting to suit. Thus Baldrey's early skewed pieces shifted to more balanced coverage at the end. Even Willcocks shifted gears somewhat if you review his columns in sequence.

What does that suggest? To what extent are they giving us the straight goods vs. what they think we want to hear? After all, news media must be popular to be profitable. Mike Smyth's over-the-top cynicism may seem overly contrived, but hey, everyone needs an angle to compete for attention & to keep 'em coming back.

So, we also need to look also beyond simple politics and prejudices and consider the competitive drivers that shape the news and the social factors that put many journalists out of touch with the values of their public. Because in the end, it does come down to values--one simply cannot subtract these to arrive at some sort of pure, objective truth in a vacuum.

grub

Yes I do expect to be able to walk about my local hosptial, or any other PUBLIC building and I have many, many times.

I have no problem volunteering, even just yesterday. I went in and helped carve pumpkins. Not for the first time.

As for the 18th century, many also believed in witches and scalping so let's not pretend that they were all a bunch of Aristotle's discussing Hobbes and Locke during a mead break.

Murdock, I work in a public hospital and the standing rule from management is if you see a "stranger" wandering around the facility you (staff) should enquire as to their business. I usually do it by asking if they need directions -I find this more subtle, less offensive and far more effective. Even public buildings have the right to limit access and usually more legal reason.

murdock:

C'mon! You know what I mean! I don't mean walking about during visiting hours as that's clearly permitted by the rules (it is not permitted in schools, and for good reason). You canNOT wander into labs and operating theaters at your local hospital. And that's as it should be.

As to other PUBLIC buildings; do you also claim the right to walk about, willy nilly, at your local PUBLIC peniteniary? Don't be a twit!

My Goodness murdock, you sound like someone who should be watched. Anytime you enter a school or hospital or any other public building you must abide by the rules in place. Most of the rules are their for a reason, not
everyone who enters a school is good intentioned even if you are. I had a friend who worked security at the hospital ,
visiting hours are in place for a reason. To protect the patents from theft etc, and most school policies are in place to put the kids first before hurting your feelings Mr Murdock. Get over it, if you have a issue with the way a school is run go and talk to the principal or VP as they from experience are quite accommodating don't be a vigilante sneaking around the school. Does the word stalker mean anything to you. I am sure the schools will survive without the support of murdock. I can hardly believe I have to explain this.

Imagine your energy put to something useful, the MSM is in decline around the globe via access to the internet and other alternative media sources, lets keep the trend going.
P.S some folks like to muddy an issue, this is done solely to win a argument and is very petty, don't get sucked into a mindless peeing contest. We have the tools of empire , lets use them effectively

"Don't be a twit"

Thats what I way trying to say.

True.

The significance being hard to swallow, for some in labour and on "the left", but true nonetheless. Which only shored up, could only shore up the public's worst impressions of labour.

Though it will be in the interest of one or two here, to blame and defame those others in labour and amongst even the supporting public who would point out the obvious.

Read the agreement. It is that obvious. Regrettably.

Messengers and just that.

Messengers are just that.

grub, You miss the point, the very metaphorical argument is about the necessity of equipment, supplies actually being there...Read: Learning Conditions: classroom assistants, specialists, textbooks, et al actually being there. The argument DavidN made is that the kids did not benefit in terms of learning conditions from this settlement...with which I agree.

I agree class size is important, many studies back this up... for science and labs, writing skills, learning disabilities, and many other learning conditions...smaller classes I think provide much more beneficial results.

That doesn't mean quality sometimes can't be acccomplished in larger classes as well. (and don't interpret that as me being a proponent of larger classes, I'm not...only let's be honest for once and realize that the idea "only small is good" is as much a fascist statement, as is the idea that only a right-wing press is good or only a left-wing press is good.

It is monopoly itself that is bad...monopoly of thought itself....monopoly of thought that does not recognize diversity and loves to restrict the argument down to a two-sided argument or debate... careening on its way to a one-sided fascist end.

Just for the record, I played girls' soccer in high school... and it was at a time when all of us wanted to prove we could be more than just cheerleaders so there was an extremely large turn-out. I do not remember any kind of problems, just a lot of fun, with a really creative coach that broke us up into teams and we played each other in practice.

I don't remember quite the same level of seriousness then as is reflected in a number of soccer commentors above...it was more about the fun of the game...but that, too is in my opinion the yuppification of this world, where kids have become material baubles for some parents...that their little darlins' just wouldn't survive if everything wasn't quite perfect, all set-up and manufactured with no room left for imagination or creativity...it is a sad irony that in such a supposedly kid-centered world, the kids today don't even have textbooks. And it seems that is the same sorry state that exists a week after the settlement.

That is the reason I liked DavidN's honest piece reminding us of the folly of:

And I know how controversial... how almost dangerous that is to say on this site where victory for the teachers or for the government (depending on what side you are on) has already been proclaimed.

The ruling structure , the media and the court system geared up for a battle and the union turtled big time. If a big powerful union like the BCTF does not have the stomach for a long term fight to recede Bill 12 they will not stand for anything. What could be more important than the right to strike , those who are willing to give up rights so quickly and quietly do not deserve to have them. Just pay your fines ask for forgiveness and get back to work and stop breaking the "law"

Thanks Jim Sinclair. Now I know how the HEU felt.

Maybe it was one to many times the teachers were called criminals in contempt of court, maybe Michael Smyth scared them, maybe judge Brown got to scary. maybe the modern day union leadership is only expecting crumbs. The media is powerful but we are more powerful if organized.

Every time you show your weakness you make your enemy much stronger, I say the very day Bill 12 was passed they should have went out , everyone on a general strike until Bill 12 and all fines are rescinded. How much are folks going to get pushed around until they fight back, Fu*** the spin lets see some fighting spirit. The members were ready but the leadership was not, this is a great victory for Gordo and his ilk. Don't worry 3 more years of feel good stories on the economy and the Olympics coming , I can see another majority for Gordo, If we want to get somewhere we have to be willing to act

lynn correctly points out:

For sure! We agree!

I could be convinced, for example, that perhaps History 12 (picking that subject out of the proverbial hat) could be taught with one huge (let's say 150 students) lecture hour per week supplemented with 2 seminar hours (of about 15 students) per week.

I'm all for creativity in terms of the structuring of class sizes and their composition. And while it is not a perfect zero-sum game, you are not likely to be able to go to a lecture format without having to make that up somewhere else.

Coyote, I do hope you manage to get back onto that other thread (Where Was James), and answer Perplexed questions.

He and at least one other leftist are still awaiting a bit of clarification, especially over that lunchtime quickie you fed us yesterday.

I was also quite surprised to see you supporting an obvious neo-con luddite like Elliot. Surely that was a low moment in your day, right?.

Lynn, you are correct in stating that the settlement of the teachers' walkout didn't improved some conditions.

You are wrong in your agreement with DavidN's whine that the BCTF didn't promote class size and other non-monetary issues.

Sorry, perhaps you think it was all about money for teachers or, as your pal Coyote claims, a sellout of the highest order.

Fortunately, anyone with a bit of understanding and no axes to grind (like the one used by the above mentioned in recent weeks to try to prove everyone else was wrong), see the end of the walkout for what it was.

Improvements weren't immediately forthcoming, however, virtually every parent in this province is now fully aware of the real issues in school and they are fully aware everyone else (including reluctant politicians) are also aware.

How can you buy into this right winger's argument that it was all about money?

Please expand Lynn, because this certainly isn't the sort of goop (Coyote's manifestos aside) you usually buy into.

DavidN's soccer comparison is a used car saleman's approach to ignoring all the bald tires and spare parts lying around.

I too coached soccer (8 years) and was terrible at it, but quickly realized having six, seven or more spares meant disaster. Sometimes the best games were played without any spares at all, but that's another story.

DavidN's solution, to simply create new teams or new leagues does sound a tad silly given the realities of seasonal youth sport.

But he certainly, and I think unintentionally, did touch on an answer.

The only people who can fix the problem of too many players in too few teams are the league executive.

That same reality works in education. The executive of the league - Minister of Education, Finance, the premier, etc, etc., etc, have the ability and the means to develop new teams or new classrooms or new schools, no one else.

So yes, there is a parallel with sports. Unfortunately the person who first raised this comparison missed the reality of what he was attempting to say.

We all know who can fix the problem, so please quit blaming those who at least tried and are now being blamed by some.

And that is the bloody key point of it. There was a breakdown of the will to win and confidence, on the labour side-, again somewhere in the competing power plays that went on outside our view. And when that happens, organization begins to crumble, everytime.

Some of it, I really do think, is part of that politically partisan leadership's natural mindset, to see the solution to all problems in who you vote for. Vote NDP. Otherwise, everything you attempt to achieve on your own is doomed to wind up in the toilet. (That it does/has anyway, even with NDP governments, seems to always escape them.) These are not people committed to what used to be known as "class struggle", independent working class action on their own behalf and that of their community. That is just too, too Red and "revolutionary" a concept to them, or outside their bureaucratic, political maneuvering mindset. (Everything is really settled in backrooms is the mantra.)

Additionally, expressed by DavidN above, regardless of his motivations, and I know not what they are, there has since Operation Solidarity, been a great credibility gulf open up, not only between the rank and file and leadership of Labour, but also between the mainstream public and the trade union movement, who have come to see it as "self-serving". Which is only confirmed for them, everytime an "agreement" like this one is struck, that betrays the public interest.

So, already having written too many long comments here :-), suffice it to say, two major requirements leap off the page: 1.) A strategy and tactics need to be developed that actually have a hope of winning strikes again, even considering major "general strikes" of say the "public sector" separately, and/or the entire "private sector" separately, or together with the public sector, around key issues and demands effecting them all or sectors, involving rights to bargain, negotiate and yeah, challenge major "management rights" that will strengthen bargaining, worker and public participation in management decision making, and "right to organize" demands. If "muscle" is the problem lets pump up and maximize our body mass. 2.) Take on and win key "community demands" that will rebuild and restore our public credibility and confidence-, and draw them in to support us rather than repel them away and turn them against us, as too oftem happens.

The direction Labour is on is not working. Time for that revolution within the House of Labour of which I sometimes talk-, in leadership, policy, strategy and tactics. Either that or we will have to start over again when you wither away, like dust to dust, which is the current course things seem to be on.

I"ll put it this way, allan, you are in the end what you settle for. Now, I'm out the door ... will return later....

Check it out Allan.

How true

"The direction Labor is on is not working. Time for that revolution within the House of Labor of which I sometimes talk-, in leadership, policy, strategy and tactics."

Most folks have been dumbed down so much (labor leaders included) that they feel their only hope is to win an election so their actions are guided to some political game instead of just doings what's right. It's no secret I support the NDP, but if the NDP was elected and lost its way then I would support a general strike. ( no backroom deals or compromise) Lets plan our actions for today to improve tomorrow , If you want the labor movement to be relevant you have to make it relevant and stop hoping and praying for a fair deal. Make it happen.

If your not happy with the leadership , take it over , have a labour coup, What's the matter with 5 or 6 general strikes per 4-5 yr term, folks would pay more attention if politics affected them directly. If labour was strong it could take the drivers seat and people would elect more labor friendly governments, that's the way democracy works, it's not labor that should adjust to some party. It's like native leaders always say, self determination, they don't want hand outs they just want the power to take control of their own lives, that's what labor is missing the power to take control. Theirs not enough courts and jails when folks stick together. The MSM is their is make us feel alone and marginalized, hell we could even guide foreign policy. Canada out of Haiti, or else general strike from coast to coast to coast. We must stop acting like little dogs begging at the table and start up and help ourselves .

The right is never afraid to act, its only us the middle and poor majority that make them afraid, why do you think keeping hold of the media is so relevant to them.

There have not been many elections, maybe one or two where I didn't vote at all, where I haven't voted NDP.

"You can't always get what you want."

That said, I'm a family man, a community citizen, a worker and a trade unionist first and all together. Which doesn't mean that one should walk around a "true believer" like the Neocon simps, touching your forehead down to the ground to the ruling class, political careerist, or labour leader careerists. When any or all of them don't serve our interests, and the ruling class is a constant given, they deserve and need to be taken on.

And the trade union movement that is, is broke big time. Has been for too damned long.

Long past time to fix it, or build something anew that will actually do what it was designed for.

stuart,

no pain or hurt taken from the comments here.

your argument towards even more militant union actions may have the reverse effect, pushing the electorate into supporting an even more ruthless and radical governance.

mob rule, such as you propose with many mass strikes, are generally followed by very mean-spirited and ruthless governments - the ultimate example of the french revolution, followed by the 'terror' of Robespierre comes to mind.

The nature of the western social democracies must change to fit the modern, connected world.

Our children are already embracing it in many ways, as we are here with such a forum as The Tyee.

Why must the solution to the mean-spirited governance in BC, be even meaner, more radical union action?

murdock asks:

That's a good question. Is it just rhetorical, or do you propose an answer?

What do propose unions do when their contracts are ripped up and legislated out of existance? What should unions do when coporporations show record profits but offer their workers cut-backs, out-sourcing, and wage roll-backs?

murdock's wishful thinking:

You may wish that were true. However, in the scenaio you outlined about wanting to invigilate exams in lieu of teachers who were on strike, you would have been breaking the law. Wishing (there were right to work legislation) don't make it so.

Further, have you examined why some jurisdictions do not permit scab labor? Think about it terms of public safety before you wish for something that might have dire consequences. Perhaps do a Google search on the particulars of the gold mine explosion in the NWT's during a strike with scabs. Makes you think twice. I hope.

Murdock says

"your argument towards even more militant union actions may have the reverse effect, pushing the electorate into supporting an even more ruthless and radical governance."

I hate to say it but you can't get more ruthless and radical than the current bunch in office now. But the fear of government has kept many people in line while they watch their fellow man/woman be attacked (like the HEU) If we stand back
and do nothing we have decided to support the government, that big bad fear out their is artificial. We hold all the cards and bravery is contagious, the population would love to have some power back, the union movement could be become a quasi political force in the legislator, example --- Fu** you, your not closing the local hospital or cutting seniors benefits or else we will act. The ruling class serves few masters, if the union movement engaged the population and their battles against power you would find much support. Fear is a powerful weapon and abusers can only succeed when you are alone . In fact the only gains made threw the union movement have been radical , do you think they rolled out he carpet for workers and compromised. Allot of folks stood up and were willing to pay a price for justice. What happened to the teachers was unjust but we let it happen. We , all of us. The only way to confront organized power is organized people

This is what the elites are doing are a global scale, what do you think Seattle was about, we need to forget our narrow interest and start to make National and global networks of normal people and their struggles, or are we going to watch war and injustice and hope the Neo cons are going to be nice when its our turn.

murdock:

But seriously, murdock, how many learning situations in the public school system are analogous to teaching/training people to fire guns. On any scale of complexity of learning/teaching, it doesn't get much simpler than that (OK, OK, perhaps tying one's shoe is easier to train -- I'm even resisting the use of the word teach. You were TRAINING.)

If teachers were trainers, perhaps larger classes would be appropriate.

We agree however: no one size fits all.

Unfortunately this is what is required. A "war" is not the time to take the high road, you'll only get driven into the ground. Bill 12 is a declaration of war on labour in general and teachers in particular. It clearly spells out that strikes are illegal and there will be no negotiating, only unconditional surrender will be accepted.

The BCTF accepting wage harmonization and returning to work was the worst possible outcome.

Coyote, you call youself a trade unionist yet have no qualms about crapping all over people who have been democratically elected by trade unionists to represent them?

You get scarier all the time.

But of course you've got Pancho, no I mean Stuart as your side kick now so anything's possible, isn't it.

Quit waiting for someone else to lead. On the street the both of you and show your mettle rather than your repetative verbage you are both known for.

Just a comment, and a call to action. Many advertisers in the CanWest empire are parents. Many of them are small business people and can't afford private school for their children-- some of whom are special needs.
When Tina Oliver of CFUN was trashing teachers and parents (Oliver to parent of autistic child phoning in: "We can't pander to the 5%), a retired teacher took it upon himself to phone the sponsors of the show. The Western Sales Rep of LA Weight Loss had an autistic son, and she was not too happy.
Phoning advertisers and sponsors to let them know what is being said is a very good idea.

Good points, Hga. Also, a lot of people who can afford private school, have a social conscience and believe in a high quality public education system accessible to all children. Only the most extreme 'right' believe in the gilded age for Canada.

You are wrong in your agreement with DavidN's whine that the BCTF didn't promote class size and other non-monetary issues, wrote allan

.

Nowhere did I agree with DavidN on this issue. To be more accurate DavidN didn't say what you quoted. He actually said:

Now, I don't agree that they failed to promote these issues... unless, of course, he means that the end result was telling in its own way. With that I agree, because Ready's flimsy recomendations should not have been accepted. Just my opinion.

Now you called DavidN a fraud as a citizen and shameful, labelling him right away which is silly in itself. I don't agree with all he that he said but his comments were honest and interesting....and outside of the box because he brought in the big bugaboo of money that no one wants to talk about...how money and the interests of capital influence both big business and big unions:

Well, that could have made for an interesting discussion but...

So now I'm going to quote you, allan:

Now that's easy to say but you know what the real test of that would be...if parents and politicians would continue to support the teachers if the strike continued on week after week...when the work day world is disrupted day after day... that's the real nitty gritty...when the strike costs money to parents and exerts pressure on politicians and union leaders...that's the crunch, and the crunch came so soon this last time just as some guy named Coyote predicted...because being able to withstand that crunch would reveal if as a society, our leaders... and that includes union leaders, and all the rest of us are willing and able to withstand a degree of suffering for a higher good... or if our capitalist society has created too many whining marshmallows...marshmallows that Campbell counts on to chant "back to work" back to school" at any cost, blissfully ignoring that nothing has really changed....though I think there are a growing number of us not willing to be roasted over the coals any longer.

I grew up with long strikes that went on for months and months...hardly a whimper heard...but hardly a Visa card's mounting debt to be paid off either.

So you see, I think DavidH raised a good point about the how the politics of money has influenced bargaining.

And, in just my opinion, how those same kind of politics have weakened structures, like unions, that used to ensure and defend our human rights.

Carole Taylor and her boss are gearing up for next spring when they're to give direction on the compensation freeze that expires.

They better tread carefully.

Lynn please go back and read Coyotes diatribes prior to the whole teachers dispute blowing up.

You will not find any accurate prediction by him other than he would blame the trade unionists, as he did.

The blame might even stick if he could manage one fact, one quote, anything to show the BC Fed, the BCTF or any other trade unions took any actions hurt the members.

Even today he is still talking darkly about things that happened behind closed doors which he acknowledges he is completely ignorant of, but not so blind as to avoid off-the-wall claims of sell-out.

Sorry, but I expect more from hockey fans than that simplistic mean-mouthed conclusion.

All Coyote did, as did your new friend David N, was to tell the world how he was going to settle the age-old dispute between workers and bosses once he turfed the trade union leadership.

Lynn, both Coyote and Stuart have been here for weeks telling workers to essentially revolt, decertify their unions and wait for him to show them the friggin' promised land.

Aside from being almost funny, there is a very sad element to the chorus from the pair who have shown they really know very little about industrial relations or the trade union movement other than it is apparent they have never been elected, never led and unlikely ever to be asked to take the helm based on their actions of recent.

Hey Lynn, it doesn't take a lot of smarts to agitate against people when you are comfortably sitting outside the fire zone, sipping that glass of port your good wife brought you while others are up to their necks in the real fight.

In fact, in many circles, what that pair have been up to is called cowardism. Attack and make a mess and then slink back behind the veil of anonimity until the next snipish opportunity arrives.

Isn't much different to me than the fellow hiding beside a fence waiting for a chance to slither across a picket line when no one's watching.

Heroic, I must say.

You comment that we are what we accept. Let's get real big here. If you, Coyote and or Stuart have a real problem accepting the fact the teachers decided to go back to work then I would urge you to learn not to get caught up in things you have absolutely no control over.

My assessment now is neither of these people have much to offer other than reams and reams of discount style rhetoric that points to a separate agenda that had absolutely nothing to do with the contract dispute the BCTF faced.

Stuart's rantings are now over the edge while poor Coyote seems mired deeper and deeper in an illogical thought process of his own making that he can't bring to a rational conclusion.

Oh wait a minute, now I get it. He's not Coyote, he's Don Quixote.

Allan, Allan. You have been losing it for awhile. I and others have tried to humour you, but you are making a fool of yourself. Honestly.

Do yourself a favour and disappear for awhile. Get your head and your emotions together, and then come back and talk to us-, before you have a coronary or fall apart before our very eyes.

You have become too sad a spectacle for words.

Though I do like that Don Qixote image of myself, tilting at windmills. :-)

Go find your friend, Art Kube, (Poor Art.) drink too many beer, cry in it over old mistakes and failures, and dreams of being a working class hero come to naught, being a failure of a bureaucrat instead.

Better yet, make a fool of yourself over a woman. Every man should do that more than once in his life. :-)

Except for the bureaucrat... My only redemption. ...been there and done that. :-)

Coyote, it isn't I who is trying to justify hundreds of inches of hate-filled anti-union diatribe.

My act is quite together and if I suffer from anything it's a great disappointment that a person who claims to stand for the workers would turn on them and their leaders so dispicibly at a time when a bit of solidarity might have helped.

I'm not going anywhere. I, like Perplexed still await a rational response to his posting of Monday evening. No, not that silly mixed up reply you seem forced to churn out in response today, but one that actually has a concrete plan attached to it other than just wait until I (Coyote) complete the vision.

Ya, and we'll bring the Guinness Book people in to record just how long people can actually hold their breath eh?.

I won't stoop as low as another and suggest you are acting like an enforcer for a mob approach to organizing workers, but I am certainly beginning to note a tone of desperation in your repeated postings, this latest effort to shift attention from your silly actions, being hardly an exception.

Just answer this question: what other than your ego gives you justification to leap into a contract dispute you have already shown you know zilch about, and try to cause harm to the union members by sowing dissention?

I suspect I'm getting to you Coyote because you had informed me several days ago my posts would be ignored by you. Now your all over the Tyee dropping loads here, there and everywhere trying to defend indefensible actions of anyone who has ever proudly called themselves a trade unionist.

And solidarity to you too bro.

Didn't I just read somewhere? If you want to run a political party, then run a political party, or run for political office. If you want to run a newspaper, then run a newspaper. You can't do both at the same time.

The media is supposed to be the go between from the source to the reader. I guess that long ago disappeared and now the media is itself the source of news.

I used to use any CanWest publication to line the bottom of the cat litter box, but the cat couldn't stand the smell.

Allan; you're proving yourself to be a very poor loser and are losing your composure here. Must be tough to realize that at one point the BCFed is threatening a general strike and 3 days later they are basically admitting defeat. Not Sinclair's fault though. The gov't held all the cards and Jinny Sims was completely out of control and made a fool of herself. Time to move on for the BCTF. The first thing they need to do is hire some professional negotiators, as the teachers sitting at the table are being taken to the cleaners.

Oh Elliot, aren't you that little shite who tried to start a rumour here a few days ago only to have it blow up in your face?

Look junior, go and play in traffic for a while okay?

Hey, better still. Coyote may want you to help him out in a stab-in-the-back attack against some trade unionist.

Stick arounc. You'll probably like him.

grub

Finally a crack of light in the conversation.

No one size fits all.

Now picture an education system that is freed from government influence (as much as it can be in our system) AND from big union influence (again as much as it can be in our system).

One where Parents negotiate with trainers (ok teachers), or groups of teachers (like a school or union local) to decide where, how and what other conditions their children will be educated. ON A CLOSE, ONE-TO-ONE BASIS.

No global collective barganing, no giant unions, no immense school system. Options would abound.

You, grub, could run your own school, free from either government or union influence.

This has been my point all along, why must we only have to choose from the ONE and ONLY public system?

I, like many others cannot afford private schools for my children and I, like others am unsatisfied with the current system. Given that I am homeschooling, which has its own costs and I am paying them.

So what else can I do but rail against both sides that cannot seem to get it through their thick heads that something must change!

As a person who will never knowingly buy or watch anything that smells of Canwest.
I'm a very proud Canadian who served in the 2nd PPCLI during the Cuban missile crisis 62-65 in the European Theatre.
What I'm seeing happening here in BC is a very dangerous Dictator, Gordo, as we are slowly & systematically losing our basic freedoms of speech with Bill 12.

Have a peek @ http://www.iwtnews.com/

I agree BC Dude, as everyone goes merrily back to work, Bill 12 still stands, a lot of denial going on presently in this province...

Bill 13, The Civil Forfeitures Act passed third reading last Thursday with hardly a whimper by the public...in it you can lose your house or assets just on the suspicion of unlawful activity...the act allows for the seizing of the property of a person who has not even been charged under the Canadian justice system.

And in our media, the lapdogs, rather than watchdogs that they are...it's "business"
as usual...see no evil, hear no evil... write drivel.

Coming to you in 30 years from now...

Mainstream media framed from a leftist perspective...

rockridgeinstitute.org

lynn, that's where the rubber hits the road isn't it? As long as Bill 12 stands labour hasn't won anything.

I find it hard to accept that the right-wingers who set their hair on fire over gun control because it may mean that some day in the future, when they're "defenceless", the gov't will strip them of their rights are happy to cheer when they see other people stripped in the here and now.

Now comes Bill 13, the right won't have any problem with that either.

No doubt a Bill 14 that declares 2 + 2 = 5 is right around the corner. But I'm sure we'll all accept more wage harmonization as a fair trade-off.

Couldn't agree more, Frank. This is the time to pay really close attention, rather than self-congratulation.

As I said on another thread... lots of delusion and denial going on of late ...for those who think this is what victory feels like - you have incredibly low expectations of the poseur in its place, perhaps conveniently lowered expectations...

Anyway, blissfully sail on...

More Bills to come I'm sure...as Frank says Bill 14 (mandatory new fiberal math) :-) is no doubt just waiting in the shadows... but keep drinking the victory kool-aid...nothing to lose but your freedom ...

You make the classic error of any bureaucrat partisan simp, Allan, of mistaking leadership for "the union" per se. They are part of it, no doubt, but not the decisive aspect, or especially, above criticism from within the trade union movement, or in the case of myself, from the general public. It's a mistake made by many leaderships from many different kinds of organizations, to be sure-, that they are what defines it.

Not my shared view.

When you make a point worth responding to Allan, I will always do so. Otherwise, I will simply let you rave on. :-) Hell, I even respond to the Neocons when I think they've made a point or observation that warrents it. And, while you are clearly "hurt" by my critique of the Fed leadership, and perhaps even offended by my views generally, I know you are not a Neocon. Even you are better than that. :-) Indeed, I generally much agree with most of what you say otherwise. (Which doesn't make me a Social Democrat or you a "radical". We just share some ideas in common, is all.)

Hell, a conversation go on long enough and broad enough, one will even stumble onto a shared view with a Neocon or two, on some particular aspect of a phenomena. Shared grey areas are always found here and there along even the hardest demarcation lines. Doesn't make him a radical leftie, anymore than it does me a Neocon wingnut-, Elliot being an example where we briefly shared a moment as well, that the BCTF lost the principle issues of the strike, and then it was gone. :-)

Though I can't seem to restain myself from having some fun with you once in awhile. For example, more and more you are sounding like Art during the Operation Solidarity Strike. You're not really him, are you? (And no, I don't really expect an answer. I'd deny it too. :-)

Lynn spoke to.

And yes, Lynn, the Neocon agenda continues to roll relentlessly on, in its endeavour to represss civil liberties, and particularly to corral and effectively shut down the trade union movement. Whilst the Fed proceeds blithely on, from delusional victory to delusional victory, with scarcely no notice, that they practically evidence.

This is a different capitalism from that which gave rise to this business unionism school of labour, and from which assumptions they continue to seem to operate, conjugally joined with the NDP (even though she continues to eye other potential lovers) in leading the way back down to the bottom again, for the organized working class. :-) (I see your dirty mind working again, Allan. What a slut you are. :-)

murdock suggests:

Well, superficially, your proposal has a certain appeal. However, once we examine the multiple roles (note the plural, because it is important) schools play in society, I'm not so sure your system works.

Schools, whether we like it or not, play a significant role in socializing our children. Part of that socialization process includes the making of good citizens. That means, passing on "Canadian" values.

I'm not happy with the kind system you propose because it fragments and fractures society. I'm not happy with schools associated with various religions and sub-groups within religions (they would not be permitted in my ideal system). What, exactly, is the point of a Muslim, Jewish, Sihk, or Christian school, other than to emphasize differences as opposed to societal harmony.

I too, have problems with schools that rely of parental income to determine entrance. Again I question whether that kind of differentiation is useful in a society.

As citizens, through our governments, we get to decide what kind of school system we want. I will vote for governments that support a school system and curricula of harmony as opposed to differentiation and fragmentation. (And your home-schooling would be illegal.)

In fact, I myself have even been known to agree with both Coyote and allan on many, but not all, issues.

Just defend those barricades guys and quit arguing over who's got the best one, this is how the Republicans lost the Spanish Civil War.

Okay before you go of the deep end Allan let me say that I will never follow power blindly , either the Church or any political party or union leaders , actions speak louder than words. I can only judge those by their
actions or non actions and outcomes.

You need to think about this, Allan is what Allan does , all we have to judge you on is your actions so therefore you are what you do more than what you say. Just like the union leaders , we can only judge them on their actions not their words, as far as Jim Sinclair I see him talk the talk but he always disappears and backs of when the going
gets tough. I have solid examples of his inaction, what you have is some unfounded loyalty. Maybe your to close to power which shows in your emotion.

You are not a bad guy Allan and I accuse you of nothing but blurred vision, but you and me and the union leadership are all losers here. Being critical and honest is not disloyalty but is passion to correct mistakes and make things better, even if that is with new leadership. Dirty fighting to try and stifle debate will not work, you can assume my intentions if you like and call me names but the facts stand, we blew it. If this is victory the labor movement is in real danger, in fact with Bill 12 the movement hardly exist. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened without even being in the back room, you seem very concerned about the leadership while my concern lies with the
membership. Things will change Allan, but let me assure you it will get ugly before it gets better. Bye the way just drove by St Paul's downtown and honked at the HEU workers not on strike with Sodexo who pays 10 bucks an hour,
remember those folks, the ones the labor movement hung out to dry.

Many folks muse that the only function of a union is to collect union dues, and that union's are a thing or the past and are not needed anymore. Why do you thing that say that, well its because the past labor movement accomplished things, what great gain has the labor movement make in say the last 15 yrs. The movement is becoming more and more irrelevant to peoples lives, I seen the hopeful faces of the HEU workers at the rally, hopeful and ready to fight for justice. Just to be shafted again , back to being obedient.

P.S I happen to agree with Coyote on this one but have disagreed with him in the past, in fact he has called me a bootlick. So stop being so paranoid.

"In fact, I myself have even been known to agree with both Coyote and allan on many, but not all, issues. "

Lets all sing we are the world.

Now that is both funny and sweet..my favourite combination....and I would pay big, big, bucks (if I had any) to hear that special rendition from my favourite ( not to mention "fiesty") men's quartet.

Group hug....xoxox

Thanks Lynn, just trying to lighten things up. 13

What worries me is this fractured left, we need to get our act together and have a common front together. Non off this lets make a deal stuff on an individual basis, the unions should stand together and not just be individual bargaining units cutting weak deals or no deals every few yrs. IF the union movement wants to be more relevant they must support many issues, The Peace movement, union movement, environmental movement, gay rights, women's rights, native issues etc must all be one. We can't compromise our values and leave others behind. We should have stayed out until the HEU had justice, Now this Carole Taylor is
offering bonus deals to unions that settle fast as she is being played like she's a real visionary, while in fact she sounds a used car salesperson. (you know where she can put those red shoes)

The right is always united with their twisted agenda, that Bill 13 is very scary, just finished reading the website. Anyway, cheers,

What I find most disturbing about Bill 13 is that the act allows for the seizing of property belonging to a person who has not even been charged under the Canadian justice system...allowing for seizure on suspicion alone of unlawful activity.

The government during the debate on this bill provided no details or specific guidelines (as usual) on the criteria for determining seizure.

Now if you consider how quickly teachers were recently accused of unlawful activity and deemed criminals in their own province, then you begin to realize the real threatening aspect of this bill. Your bank accounts, your property, even your house can be seized if they determine (by so far unknown criteria) that the property in question is part of an unlawful activity.

As Coyote noted above this is about repression of our civil liberties and indeed the Civil Liberties Association's in both Ontario (where this was also implemented) and in BC protested the quashing of civil liberties its enactment represents. You can imagine how the effects of this bill could destroy's one's life before guilt is even proven. Scary stuff.

And I'll just post one more section of Bill 13 that RickW posted in a reply to me on another thread:

Gee, Toto...this definitely doesn't look like Kansas anymore...

Shit! Now something else I will have to grovel in atonement for.

I tried to warn you all. I come up short on the social skills end of things.

Been a busy, busy day. G'night all. I may well be busy for a number of days here, but will pop in whenever I can.

Stuart. Sorry.

Stuart. I mean it.

Has anyone heard of the plans to remove school boards from the educational process?

With over 60% of the boards saying that they had no input into the actions of BCPSEA and that they actually supported the teachers illegal action, it was only a matter of time before the liberals turned their guns to bear on the trustees.

I find the following very disturbing.

Proposed changes to the role of school boards:

Only weeks before the election of local school trustees in BC, the deputy minister of education has revealed proposed changes in the role of local school boards. At a meeting of the BC School Trustees Association, Deputy Minister Dosdall referred to legislation that will be tabled in the spring and even hinted at this being the last school board elections of this kind in BC. Trustees were asked to provide feedback to proposed changes in the mandate of school boards by November 17, two days before the November elections are to take place.

grub,

Thus we have done and see what it has produced over the past 200 years? Declining literacy and numeracy rates and a culture of 'entitlement'.

At least I know not to support such a system of NO OPTIONS AT ALL, welcome to 1984! The Dukhabors had to fight that with their own civil disobedience. As would I, since the truancy laws of the past have been proven to be of no good at all.

Murdock,

Declining literacy rates?

The data supports the opposite.

In Canada, literacy rates are highest among 18 - 25 year olds, and are progressively lower as one moves up the age scale.

But why let the facts ruin a perfect argument?

As you were.

Put ICBC profits into public health care targeted at new nurses and reducing waiting times. Can you image the trend coast to coast, hey see what BC has done etc, In fact many yrs ago Ont tried to start a public insurance
like ICBC but the private companies were going to sue threw NAFTA and the gov backed off. Yep the Ont government did not have the democratic right to make that decision.

Hey I have an idea We have 5 national banks in Canada each made 12 billion plus net income.

That's 60 billion raped from the Canadian Taxpayer, we also have a Bank Of Canada that the gov used for loans etc, why not have one Bank, The Bank Of Canada, that's 60 billion in our pockets.

Oh sorry, don't want to get our hands on that money. Other nations may think we're pinko's if we interfere with the banking industry.

Sorry posted on the wrong thread, it happens , I wanted the ICBC thread.

Coyote, let me explain once again why I think your position re: the BC Fed was despicable.

Yes, I know you are telling everyone who will continue to read that you predicted the BC Fed would cave on the teachers.

Unfortunately you have yet to prove the BC Fed caved, you have shown absolutely nothing that indicates you know what happened in those fateful days leading up to the set of proposals recommended by Vince Ready.

Yes, I know you were ready with your revolution the day you returned to Tyee. You made it absolutely clear you had a hate-on for the fed.

And yes you argued the feds would fail. Other than the echo of your fans cheering you on here, how do you know the feds have failed Coyote?

Yes the teachers had to accept a bad deal, the rotating strikes were stopped, but aside from that you have shown not one shred of understanding of what took place between parties you are unfamiliar with and all of whom were certainly not sharing a friggin' thought with you.

Still, your pipeline of what likely happened didn't miss a beat. "They bailed, they bailed," was your cry.

But that really isn't what got my goat. Rather that came about as I realized you really weren't interested in seeing a solution to the impasse reached. Your primary goal was to shit all over the BC Fed and anyone supporting or affilated with it.

For the record: I don't and have never workd for the Fed, I don't even know if I know any elected officers or staff of the Fed anymore and at times I get as pissed of as anyone by the slow ponderous approach taken on some issues.

That aside, I know which side of the great divide I am on and when a war errupts if I can't support some of those on the side of the workers, I may have to stand back and contribute in other positives ways.

What I will not do and what has turned my stomach in the teachers battle, is you vile accusations and petty ridiculism of the Fed. and various Fed leaders from the past two decades or more.

I'm sure it got your blood pumping and your fingers tapping and it likely got an awful lot of quiet praise from our neo-con gallery, which of course includes your new pal Elliot, another man known for his shrewd predictions.

BTW,perhaps you could catalogue the advances you have made for working people in BC during those two decades or so.

But, please, keep it to a point-by-point list and then the rest of us can proceed to flesh out your accomplishments with specific examples that will no doubt lead to you having to move to Vancouver to accept your appointment as "Working Class Leader for Life."

Sorry for the sarcasm but, I'm trying to mirror (without the personal attacks) your approach to the House of Labour.

I've tried to find reasons for your attack that make some sense, but I can't accept you are too young to realize what you were doing, nor are you unfamiliar with labour culture.

Yes, I know you think the Fed's leadership is corrupt and willing to sell anyone out for an apointment.

So I'm back to wondering why attack an allie when the battle is raging other than to interfere. Why?

Because you don't like them, because you know more than they, because they're an easy target, because you don't really give a shit about the teachers, because I want to introduce my theory for working class victory, or , , , only you can tell us Coyote.

I am just going to have to take the high road here Coyote and accept that you erred badly even though you thought you were doing the right thing.

I now hope to leave this sad chapter behind, but we'll see where life takes us.

Yes, I, too, was galled by the slanted coverage of the two weeks of civil disobedience undertaken by the teachers. This slanted coverage continues with the media looking for ways to talk about how the "illegal strike" by the teachers has hurt some students. Global spoke just this morning of a picket-crosser now choosing to homeschool her children because she said the staff at her school had been cold to her after the "strike".

For all of those people who think nonunion schools are better than union schools, here is an interesting article. It is called

A State-by-state Analysis of the Impact of Collective Bargaining Among Teachers on Student Performance

It was written and reseached by THE INSTITUTE FOR WISCONSIN'S FUTURE, October, 1996.

Here is the Link:
http://www.weac.org/Resource/1997-98/Dec97/iwf.htm

The article correlates higher student performance with states having high percentages of unionized teachers. It seems socio-economic status is the single greatest determinant of a student's success in school. Here again, we have the argument for a more even distribution of wealth than is promoted by this government or the mainstreem media. One good way to redistribute wealth is through developing a strong public school system with breakfast and lunch programs, and paying the professionals working in those schools well.
In this way poor children will have food in their bellies and an education equivelant to the rich. Subsidizing private schools for the rich and/or the narrow-minded only provides more resources for people who do not want to be part of the greater society - thus perpetuating a sense of entitlement by these people.

Wouldn't be wonderful if the press would just print: "Isn't it amazing how teachers banded together to fight:
1. against an unjust law;
2. for the learning conditions for their students; and,
3. for the good of the working people of British Columbia!"?

Many people who are driving, first and foremost, by their quest for capital have a very hard time understanding that teachers were motivated by their sense of right and wrong. Even Sinclair didn't quite get it when he told the Federation to stand down until after the vote. Even he thought teachers were in it for the money. He could have just as easily kept quiet or said that the Federation was going to stand firmly with the teachers until they tell us to stand down.

murdock:

I trust you have evidence of this (other than anecdotal). If so, please give us a reference URL.

If my recall of history serves me, universal education was implemented to combat universal illiteracy. 200 years ago, the average Canadian (or European, for that matter) could not read or write. As a matter of fact, during the 1960's and 70's, there were still significant numbers of immigrants to Canada, from places like Italy and Portugal, who were, at best, marginally literate.

During the early 1900's, Taylorism in US factories was the prevailing management paragigm because the bulk of the American workforce was both unskilled and fundamentally illiterate.

Where do you get your notions that earlier generations were more literate?

The media was pretty kind, considering that the teacher's leader made a complete fool of herself. What a bunch of lemmings.

Why the new handle Sir John / Nemesis?

If you forgot your password the Tyee will email it to you.

murdock says:

It just dawned on me: the expression culture of 'entitlement' is a buzzword in the literature of the radical right, south of the border. Anything that smacks of helping the underdog and providing a sense of community and sharing is immediately branded by the right-wing wingnuts as a culture of 'entitlement'.

murdock, try to find some more balanced reading, or at least try to define what you mean by the expression, culture of 'entitlement'. Further, how do you see this cultural phenomenon manifested? Evidence please (and we're still waiting for your evidence of brilliant literacy rates among the populace 200 years ago).

Thanks to whoever it was in the Tyee comments section that recommended filing a complaint with Canadian Broadcast Standards Council regarding Bill Good's reporting on a website poll regarding a possible wildcat strike without telling his audience that it was unscientific.

CKNW has written an apology and admitted that Bill Good should have reported the poll as unscientific.

The CKNW Program Director, Tom Plasteras wirtes: