Mr. Spector should be as well-placed as anyone to comment on whether changes in the Sun's editorial leadership changed editorial attitudes to some extent, though his distinctions might be too fine for many of us out here to grasp. But arguing that Gutstein might as well have compared the budget coverage of two different papers was a little, ...uh, over the top.

Furthermore, his "logical problem" critique entirely missed Gutstein's central point, in my view. Whatever changes may have occured at the Sun since 2001, they don't seem to have impacted the pattern of bias suggested by Gutstein's analysis of the coverage of two similar budgets.

Had the treatment of the recent Liberal budget been attributable to a new leadership approach at the Sun, "logic" would suggest that the reams of coverage should have included a re-appraisal of (and a fresh comparison to) the similar NDP budget that was widely dissed at the time. But there was no hint of this.

So if attitudes have changed at the Sun, it seems to me that they haven't changed all that much--or perhaps they have only changed selectively.

...but then again, I'm probably biased by having observed the exact same pattern of bias that Gutstein described in the Sun's coverage of other topics which which I'm intimately familiar, and where I know exactly what has been left unsaid and what has been highlighted. Mr. Spector's "echo chamber" phenomenon is not limited to the Web. Any news entity that takes an obvious political stance will attract like-minded writers.

N, I did indeed respond at length to your excellent points, which also address Name's points. Unfortunately they were deleted. I'm not sure whether this was an editorial or technical decision, but perhaps you could ask the owners of the site to retrieve them. While you're at it, ask them to retrieve the Iraq thread, which was getting quite interesting and also disappeared.

Some of us BC’ers may not need the expertise of a Donald Gutstein or a Norman Spector, to see the level of bias in the mainstream media in British Columbia. Those like Name, and others with first hand experience and /or knowledge of particular issues, certainly don’t. Where the level of bias isn’t obvious, and/or requires in-depth knowledge/research of a particular issue (like the coverage of provincial budgets over the years), then that expertise is much needed and should be used for enlightenment. It is too bad that Norman did not ask Donald for an unedited copy of his letter to the Sun before responding. I think it is also unfortunate that Norman didn’t focus on the substantive issue of the “Budget Coverage” rather than what appears to me to be almost pedagogical issues.
The important question to my mind is: was the Vancouver Sun’s coverage of the Liberals pre-election budget, in comparison to the coverage of other pre-election budgets, reasonably unbiased? Donald has analyzed it, and says no. Although there have been questions raised about some aspects of his method of analysis, I haven’t read anything from the Sun or Norman that would lead me to conclude that he is wrong. I also think that those who seek to hold the media accountable to a higher standard of journalism should be commended not attacked.

Norman I hate to agree with you on something but, you are right the Iraq thread was getting Interesting. I guess we could start all over again! get a fresh start and restate our stance on the subject. The old forum was a little messy but still most post in there had very interesting points of view and full of differant facts. Now that we can hyperlink from here it will make it alot easier to show where most of us get our info from.

However I think it is dirty pool and low of the Sun to edit Mr Gutstein letter to omit the important points he was tying to make.
This proves the bias of the media to fabricate truth to shift peoples views. Most media does have a certan bias but somewhere someone has to draw a line of what is and isn't acceptable.
It would be just as easy for the editors here to omit points on your comments here to make you look weak on your stance aswell but I don't think the people here will stoop that low.

I've been told, via email, that old comments will be restored. There was no timeline given but I think it's safe to say soon.

"It would be just as easy for the editors here to omit points on your comments here to make you look weak on your stance aswell but I don't think the people here will stoop that low."

Nationalist, it seems that's exactly what's happened in this thread. (Among other points, I had responded to the point about the Sun editing the letter.) Worse, someone at the Tyee deleted an entirely new story by Barbara McClintock yesterday, after it had elicited a few comments.

Norman all I can say is Hummm sorry to hear that. I guess this is war of the news. Like I said before someone somewhere has to draw a line in the sand and make up some rules of engagement.

Norman I think you'll find the Barbara McClintock stories here.

Oops, no html allowed. Copy and paste:

http://www.thetyee.ca/Bios/Barbara_McLintock/

verso, yes, that's the one. For some reason, it was taken off the main page and the thread shut down within hours after it was posted.

Donald Gutstein makes a telling error when he says in his reply to Norman Spector, "Does she tell reporters what stories to write and how to write them?". Senior editors tell reporters and copy editors to change the lede, or to bury significant facts in a story, every day. It started under Conrad Black and continues with the Aspers. It is not always Patricia Graham who delivers the message, there are a number of sub editors who will do this at her bidding.

It is also naive to believe that the editor in chief has total say over the content and direction of the newspaper. That ended with the death of Southam. An editor in chief has a strong voice in the newspaper, but it is only equal to the advertising and promotions department. Above all this, is the publisher, Dennis Skulsky, who will temper their advice with any instructions he has received from the Aspers. Anyone who finds this description unrealistic has not spent much time in the news rooms of the Sun or Province on deadline as the editing of news stories takes place.

I will add, that columnists have more leeway with what they write than reporters, but only for so long. A continuing divergence from the political views of the senior editors would mean losing their column.