I am happy to see that someone finally tells it like it is: there is NO loss of masculinity!
But it takes a man to recognize his responsibilities and this is the best precaution anyone can take!
Now, if only the various stupid leaders around the world would recognize that overpopulation is a problem, then we would have achieved something!
It may sound glorious to insist that life must be saved at all costs, but the fact remains that we are exploding as a species.
It is also a fallacy to expect people to abstain!
So Bush & the Pope need to face todays world!

Oh. My. Freaking. God. Do you think you could get any more stereotypical and shallow in this article? How about rounding it out by throwing in some myths about how vasectomies make your balls fall off, or how David isn't a "real" man now that he's shooting blanks? And the stereotype that all people who are voluntarily childfree are selfish, child-hating hedonists? Please. A large percentage of childfree people whom I've met are devoted to social and environmental causes. Many are teachers or work with kids.

If you want to show the realistic side of the childfree choice, why not talk to somebody like Jerry Steinberg (a teacher, btw), the founding non-father of the No Kidding, a social networking organization for childfree folks. He's based right here in Vancouver, is frequently interviewed, and NK has chapters worldwide. nokidding.net. Of course that might involve some actual research and balanced writing instead of anecdotes and bias.

Interesting article, and well-written.

I can't say I agree with some posters who seem to equate deliberate childlessness with social responsibility. One of the reasons our immigration intake needs to be so high is precisely because of the childlessness of so many privileged, educated, high-combined-income households here in Canada and throughout the Western World - the very households who should be conceiving and raising the next generation of global citizens. Let's be clear on this: North America and Europe do not have an over-population problem. The closest they get is a policy problem surrounding integration and distribution in the cities. That's policy, not numbers. Canada in particular is vastly underpopulated. We need more babies conceived, born and raised in mainstream Canadian households. I'm hardly a 'family values' advocate, but there has to be a happy medium somewhere. A young man in his early twenties who has a vasectomy is exercising dubious judgment - he's still got plenty of personal growth and maturing ahead of him, so it's just unfortunate he's so closed so early in his life to the very possibility of fatherhood.

I can't wonder if a large part of this is the general decline of fatherhood as a positive and manageable role in modern society....and the problem which modernity and liberalism has with fatherhood in general...this goes right back to Rousseau and the Enlightenment.

Nice post, NB -- I agree.

I know a lot of guys, myself included, who thought that having kids was a really stupid idea when they were in their teens and twenties. I think that this part of the "extended adolescence" , in which most guys don't grow up until their thirties, that is common in our culture.

But then their thirties hit, and many of these one-time anti-children types began to breed. My wife and I are still childless, but this could change for us some time in the next few years ...

Guys in their twenties are adults & can make their own decisions, but I think that it would be wiser to postpone a near-irreversible sterilization decision until a little later in life.

Deliberate childlessness isn't social responsibility it's a life choice, period.

But making the decision to sterilize yourself at 23 is foolish. There are plenty of other ways to remain childless. If you lack the impulse control to refrain from unprotected sex, then you sure as hell shouldn't be considering sterilization as an option.

Nightbloom your views are frankly creepy. You consistently here (and in other similar topics) express opinions that reflect bias toward the "Western World" that depicts very strong undercurrents of classism and racism. And you consistently demonstrate a profound ignorance of anything outside your "Western World" paradigm.

What pray tell are your reasons why "privileged, educated, high-combined-income households" further modified as "mainstream Canadian households" should be the reproducers? Is it because they are, surprise, surprise overwhelmingly caucasian?

Don't be a jackass, JJ. There is nothing in my statements to give you reason to pull out your appalling arsenal of "-isms"....least of all racism. "Classism", "racism", "sexism", "heterosexism", "nya-nya-nya"....Cripes, I heard it all b4. Sticks & stones, JJ - Can't you nabobs ever sing a different tune when confronted with anything that doesn't resemble your own self-flagelating worldview?

And I defy you to provide one instance in which I demonstrated "profound ignorance of anything outside (my) 'Western World' paradigm."

And your final lines are a red herring. Race has nothing to do with it. It's about means. Those best placed to undertake the sacrifices are the ones foresaking parenthood in favour of a life centred on "Me, Me, Me". Not sure what you're barking about on the caucasian thing - that's your assumption, not mine. The burden of proof is on you - why shouldn't they "be the producers", to borrow your inept phrase?

There is something very Darwinian about self centred shallow men choosing not to reproduce. An excellent choice! My own urologist quipped after he was finished with the procedure (after the birth of my third child)--There you go. Just like a japanese orange--all juice and no seeds!
And who said doctors were humourless.

This is an interesting article, but unfortunately fails to address the many factors involved in sterilization, and therefore falls rather flat. Everyone's got a story to tell when it comes to hearsay, but without meaty interviews and a diversity of opinions and experiences, it's just another meagre story to tell.

Well, certainly not everyone is suited to the breeding circle. And for those not, hetero or otherwise male and female, it is unquestionably better for them and the rest of the herd that they restrain themselves, use something, or have themselves cut. They will be happier, there will be fewer "unwanted" children and the rest of us, hard pressed supporting our own progeny, may be saved some significant unwanted expense and social hassle dealing with their familial fukups.

There's likely too many unwanteds out there right now, shooting up, homeless and doing time for all manner of crimes in prison and in mental hospitals. Just as a guess.

As one who chose and has never regretted being a part of the great inner breeding circle, I thank you David. You undoubtedly made the wise and right choice for yourself. At least so it appears now. And I say this not in the least facetiously.

Though I do have to sound a small warning. Back when the "women's liberation movement" was new, many feminists with whom I was actively involved politically, along with significant numbers of those males who... How shall I say it? ...submitted, no "sympathised" with them, all chose to not have children. And under some "duress" from their feminist partners of that time, many of these males put their testicles under the knife, and took the "final" feminist "solution".

I and my mate, of course, already by then prolific breeders, for the time, had to put up with some considerable hoity-toity, looking down their unquestionably "superior" noses, as low-castes, who did not measure up to the sacrifice requirements of The Cause.

Which was okay, 'cause my attitude then, as now, was,no one's getting near my nuts with a knife-, not ever. I'm here to go forth and multiply. There better be another, softer solution, a pill, anything, or I won't play this mug's game.

And I understand the plight that poses for some women. I ain't asking a one of them to do anything they don't want to or don't have to do either.

Well, gotta tell ya, though I had some doubts and regret feelings at the time, I note today that while I know the supreme pleasure of 3 coming on 4 generations of the fruit of my loins, many of my "politically correct" friends of the time are making fusses over their kitties and pet puppies, nephews and nieces that can only be described as obsessive and neurotic, and with the sad looks of, yes, lonliness and regret in their eyes that I catch once in awhile, pathetic.

Everytime I see that look I breathe a sigh of relief.

Each to his and her own however, indubitably. And in the grand scheme of things, I suspect, the larger herd is in many ways the better for it, and made stronger, healthier and smarter in all regards.

Near as I can, and none of us get outta here without some scars and surgical removals, or very few, but pecker in hand, for myself, I'm leaving this world the same way I came into it, with all the same moving parts.

And I agree with James Burns, near all the views of the nightbloomer are creepy.

Welcome back. It just wouldn't be 'you' without an ad hominem slur, so I'll give you that freebie.

I got an unjustified earful from your fellow gang-bangers after your self-righteous hissy-fit and 'Scarlet O'Hara' exit on that other thread (you know - the Jewish one).

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with your initial post above (not your silly one-liner of course - but the longer one above).

I don't see the creepiness in NB's comments. Rather, i can see his point. He is trying to get you all to realize the consequences of a segment of the population that is not reproducing fast enough to provide the human resources necessary to sustain a society. Canada is especially poor in this area.

The result is that in Canada we have to import people through immigration which is the most expensive way to find the resources and brainpower we will need in the next generation.

You know why Bush was elected twice (okay so he cheated) but you know why it was so close both times? Because the religious right have been having 3 to 4 kids per family for a generation and they are continuing to reproduce at that rate. the self-centered liberals just are not reproducing.

Let's see who is running the show in 20 years if this keeps up.

I am actually surprised that, by this point in the discussion, no one has brought up the consideration of STDs.

Interesting article, in other news today the hospital board in a small town in Saskatchewan just decided that on "religious grounds" that they would no longer allow women to have tubale ligations (sp?) in their facility. Welcome back to the dark-ages. Must protect all those potential lives at the sake of ones being lived.

So, Nightbloooom seem to feel that we need more people?
Yet everyone agree that our society was happier and better off decades ago, when out population was in the low twenties.
As I see it: only the chamber of commerce BS artists want more people to sell their shit to.
We are running out of energy and even water here. We are constantly building more drab houses and endless highways to accomodate the influx.
The only reason immigrants like myself were needed here, is that Canada went through a period where only "white collar" jobs were seen as suitable for the kids.
To keep these overducated,lazy fools clothed and housed Canada created lots of useless jobs for them and imported skilled labour to get things done!
Why we should want that lot to reproduce is beyond me, they have managed to make this country dependent, instead of selfsufficent.
We hear a lot about poor people whining, but little about how the "better class" constantly maneuver to get their advantages and avoid any obligations.
These are the useless people who fill our offices, creating red tape to keep their inbox filled.
And, yes the people who often wind up occupying the benches in the parliament.
We would have been better off if their parent had excersized restraint.

I can't see a provincially funded public hospital taking that step. There must be some caveat here. I could see them closing the O.R. for budgetary reasons, affecting ALL surgical operations...

An aunt of mine was the president of the nurses' union in her jurisdiction in the 1980s, and it was a helluva fight just to protect those conscientious objectors who desired not to be assigned to assist therapeutic abortions. The hospital administration and the province (Ontario) really gave these women a hard time for a while - suspended them without pay, threatened to fire them and take away their pensions....An accomodation was reached, although I'm not sure where the state of play rests now, two decades later.

Generally, the public sector is extremely intolerant of those kinds of religious objections.

Are you posting from the sub-Sahara or Antarctica--? Canada has more water than it knows what to do with, and energy - we can produce as much of it as we want - the technological options and know-how and capacity are at our disposal.

We're the envy of the world - open your eyes. Look at a demographic map and you'll see that Canada is virtually empty. Only the spinelessness of policmakers have allowed the influx of 'new Canadians' to crowd into the inner cities. Actually, it was the Liberals and NDP (I'm trying to reduce the usage of my signature phrase, the 'liberal-Left', which I initially used because it was non-partisan) that kicked up a storm when the Mulroney government first floated options regarding guided resettlement outside of the main urban areas (T.O., Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver). They were motivated, of course, by their constituency-hungry political avarice, but its a policy option that should have at least been discussed and explored.

What a poor story. Obviously a consolidated effort by two young men with little life experience. But the accolades go to the commenters; a fine lesson in how to rearrange a story of a self absorbed young man (is he 23 or 13?) into a raging debate on everything else.

As to the story. I had a vasectomy at 21. I'm now 47 and look back on it as one of my better choices. Sex is absolutely wonderful after the snip. But reality is considerably different that the fiction that we read here. My doctor accepted my request without arguement and scheduled me the next week. I can only guess that if his doctor did indeed place the hurdles in front of him that he suggests, it was because he recognised the immature goof that we have been presented with, and not as a matter of course.

Go forth and be snipped.

It may on the surface of it all seem like I am being contradictory when I say that I also agree with Alive, with Prairie Princess, and other advocates of "safe" birth control and population "reduction", but not so, I think.

While I was one of the "breeders" and refused to put my nuts under the knife, I and, hanging my head say, my wife did practice various birth control methods and technologies.

And I agree, the insatiable growth needs of capitalism and as part of that, it's insatiable need for production, profit, market, cheap labour and consumer growth, which is the driving element that leads to explosive population growth, be it by sexual reproduction or, failing that, immigration, is by far the greatest problem. The reality is, we and our natural environment would be far better, healthier and more sustainable and enjoyable were the natural process at work within the population allowed to drive things, which is right now to maintain population growth at the level of population stability, with is two to three child family units for the "breeding population."

What the demand and need of capitalism is however, especially predicated upon feeding and being subservient to US Empire expansionist and bloated needs, that we should bypass this natural selection process and bring in huge additional "immigration populations" to achieve this greed systems endless "expansion needs".

Which keeps us, as part of the global economic system, and effect upon the natural systems of nature, as part of the problem rather than the solution-, despite the natural selection processes going on within the national population, to maintain stable, more economically and environmentally viable population levels. And levels which people can more economically and socially, comfortably maintain.

So despite the appearance of a contradiction in my position, there is not in fact. The fundamental problem is not the efforts and attitudes of the citizenry so much, either men or women, as it is the socio-economic and political system in which we are all trapped, and which is destroying the natural world we all depend upon for our sustenance.

And you apply that on a world scale, multiplied by the numbers of people and areas of the world who are now in the process of building capitalism as well, pursuing all the "stuff" shitt and "way of life" The System works mightily through advertising, etc. etc., to create in us, with the same growth needs and demands upon the natural environment, one begins to understand the gargantuan dimensions of the environmental and social hole into which we are all digging ourselves.

Amen.

You obiously made a wise choice, zig zag. For which I and the rest of the breeding herd thank you. :-) LOL.

well, nightbloomer, I suppose you were replying to me, (even if your posts seem to be going every direction)?
No, I live on Vancouver Island, and we have rain (or used to), but I also live in the real world, and am aware that when Uncle Sam needs water I will suffer!
I have lived in company towns, where the cry was: Wake up at the early whistle and make more kids for the mill"!
The fact that other countries are worse off with over-population does not justify us going all out to "populate" a countryside where nobody goes willingly.
The "Golden Triangle" in Ontario has reached the capacity that you may like, so if sitting in your car for a few hours every day commuting, and breathing foul air is what you champion, perhaps you should move there, and at least leave BC to its own devices?
B.T.W. i did look at the map, and notice mountains that so far are best for growing trees and keep a supply of smow!
North Vancouver has experience in trying to keep building higher into the hills and it only works as long as a fantastic scenery is there as a reward and a great Metro is below to provide smucks to support the lucky few who can afford such properties!
Try building on the opposite of that first crest, and nobody would live there.

Good point giraffe re STD's

Can't see where the spayed dude has a single significant other aka monogamy. (The last 3 paragraphs of the article seem to imply this).

Seems to be into permanent prophylactic avoidance.

STD's ain't prevented by the snippin' , are they ???

Id like to third the comment on STD's.

Buddy claims to have "no worries" and says he now "f*cks with impunity".

I also read the part where he said he had enough "trust" with his partnerS not to worry about STDs. hmmm. I have my suspicions that a big part of it is an understandable hate of condoms. But a vasectomy does not cure herpes (1 in 5) or much worse diseases.

I do not think this is a right wing or left wing issue. Buddy made his choice and he his happy with it.

I know I personally was full of piss and viniger when I was 24, and it is only when I hit 30 (recently) that thoughts of having my own family struck a cord.

We'll see how he feels in a decade.

If only a whole lot more males would do have the surgery then we could stop the present population explosion. Unfortunately government and big business would never allow it to happen.

Moosebear - So government and big business is preventing your men from going under the knife, eh? What planet are you living on--?

We've reached our saturation point in terms of contraceptive options (in the developed world, at any rate). We've now got an almost failsafe pill (notwithstanding the incalculable environmental damage it`s doing, with all that synthetic estrogen being flushed into the environment), state-subsidized condoms (I haven`t had to actually pay for a condom since 1985), a tried and true morning after pill (soon to be available to kids through the school nurse, no doubt) and a state-funded regime of therapeutic abortion services.

With all these options, how much of a dent do you think the highly inefficient method of surgical vasectomy is going to make...? We've reached the point of diminishing returns, I think.

to Nightbloom - it is a publicly funded hospital in Saskatchewan, albeit one that is run by a catholic organization. The ban was put in place on religious grounds despite the hospital recieving public funding (that being the majority of its funding).

As far as I am concerned the Pope can stay out of my va-jay-jay, and the public has a right to the health care legislated as their right, not as choosen by one small group.

if only more lefties would follow david's example.

"I feel superior to guys who still might accidentally knock someone up and **** up their life."

Ahhh, to be in my twenties again, confident in the belief I know everything, when the exact opposite is closer to the truth.

Greatest gift I've ever received from the universe was an unexpected one.

Nightbs... you keep asking where people are; could it be because you are lost in the universe yourself?
Moosebear, was articulating on my earlier post, that big business depend on a large population, so they can have a still bigger market for the junk they produce!
If you were capable of thinking, you would have know what Moosebear was referring to!
But instead of thinking you once again start belittling people.
You are a sorry creature!

LoL - But 'alive', where is the evidence that big business and government are in cahoots to keep young men from having vasectomies? That's just cuckoo.

Stop blowing hot air and come back to earth, my friend =)

Every which way but loose, eh Alive? A quite amusing if pathetic fellow I find, who speaks of things about which he can never really authoritatively, and with experience knowledgably know, like a celibate priest with a predilection for choir boys, advising families on matters of raising children, the nature of relations between men and women, sexuality and morality.

His views on such issues can only over be simple guesses, memorized like a catechism by rote, or more typically mere pissing into the wind.

The value of him though is, everytime he opens his mouth and speaks, wider circles of folks know exactly how really vacuous and irrelevant he is, certainly for most of us who live what he cannot ever. Just keep feeding him rope and he eventually will kick the chair out from under himself as well-, again. :-D LOL

....nice to read you again, Stump. Well said.

So Coyote, according to you I am a paedophile or just "like" one in predilection or behaviour...a distinction without a difference regardless. In any case, I don't think any one of your cheerleaders can claim I don't have a right to be offended, if I were inclined to even bother. Anything goes, as long as you're pink, I guess. It only justifies my critique of the hypocrisy of Left ideologues.

Looks like Lynn's ready to gang-bang again. Have at it boyz & grrlz.

Nightbs:
Brings to mind the old tale of Henry Ford bragging about how many people his new assembly line could replace, and the Union guy asking him, how many cars his new equipment was going to buy?
You bet that industry depends on a large population!
That is one reason poeple like yourself insists on Canada getting filled up with people no matter how inconvenient it may be.

My sentiment exactly, Lynn.

Elliot:

The only reason you rightistas keep from killing each other off is you have some "lefties" to bang on. So watch what you wish for, my friend, 'cause you might actually get it. But I doubt that wil happen. "Leftie" is the natural state of man - rightie is an aberration that will soon enough disappear in the breeding.

nightbloomer:

Did you know that the rate of procreation is inversely proportional to the level of education in women? The more educaton a woman prcures, the less compelling she finds being a virtual baby factory. So are you advocating that the privileged (men of course) keep their wimmin "barefoot, pregnant, in in the kitchen"? 'Cause that's how it would have to be.....

Or is there some race-related issue involved in your assertion?

So a guy in his early 20's get a snip job, wow are we all supposed to get excited about that. Maybe someday he will want to have some kids and will write another story about getting the parts put back, but either way, there must be more important things happening

I love what happens when people have choice, money & education. It's pretty clear what most of us choose to do when we have control over our lives: have very few or no children.

I have been trying since I was 22 to find a doctor who would give me a tubal ligation. I'm almost 40 now & I still can't get one done. I keep hearing things like 'you will change your mind & want children, you will meet the right man, you will be sorry". It's been 18 years & I havn't changed my mind. I know what I want.

Thumb's up, Ruby!!!
I went through the same thing with my vasectomy. I just told the doc there were too many people in the world and I didn't want to add to it, even inadvertently..........

DPL:
Ain't nuthin' more important than too many people in this world.......

Well, it's kinda like I say, "There is the educated and then there is the educated." I never did confuse book learning with education, beyond the ability to read, write and do elementary math. After that it's as much propaganda and the mysterious workings of greed.

Those who feel the need to live for themselves and the moment, probably should get a snip or tubal job. Those of us who chose to be part of the breeding herd really should be greatful for your choices. And I am-, without any cynicism or passing judgement whatsoever. More room for my gene pool. (I always kinda wished all other males were cut anyway. Then such ladies as wanted the joys of motherhood would all have to come to me.)

The culling processes of natural selection work in strange and mysterious ways, and more than the obvious. I do not look down my nose at it in any wise. All you folks have a good evening-, breeders and non-breeders. We still all have our useful roles to play.

I think it's rather an exaggeration to say that those that choose to have a snip job or a tubal are living for the moment.
As for the gene pool, maybe those that have been snipped should have let themselves breed at least one offspring that would carry on their intelligence.

Seems that many that decide to breed do so without any thought.

Coyote:
Seems the breeders though, occasionally make the kind of guy who marches through schools, pumping people full of lead.......
So maybe in our world, the breeders are making victims and perps. Kinda pointless, n'est pas?

Rick,

An attempt at cheap points does not an effective analysis make. :-)Though nice try.

Of greater likelihood, this guy was a non-breeder in fact, or incapable and/or unsuccessfully so. Though I suspect the greatest likelihood is that he was an unwanted himself, feeling like a throw away person going to take others with him; bitterness, whatever. Or plain mentally ill.

He is certainly an example of why some people who attempt to be or are inadvertantly breeders, probably should not be. There's certainly no point to having unwanted kids, for sure. So, if you have any or any kinds of doubts, I would much prefer that folks cull themselves out either with surgery, pills, homosexuality or simple non-participation, by all means. Fewer people will not be a problem except for capitalism.

In any case, severely disturbed individuals come out of all quarters and strata of society is more the truth.

Though I do find it a little difficult to understand the obvious hostility some non-breeders have for those of us who keep the species happening and, I think, generally improving. (We can argue about that.) Certainly they wouldn't have wanted daddy, at about the moment they were about to happen into Mommy's vagina and connect up with that particular egg, to have just jacked them off into a piece of tissue and into the waste basket-, do ya think.

The point being, it's a dirty business and somebody has to do it, or none of you "educated" folks with all those options would be here either. Hmmmm. :-)

Ahhh, but the point is, you didn't. Which according to your logic, brings into doubt your so-called intelligence.

On the other hand, some folks think too much about everything, and just can't get into the natural flow and rhythm of life. There's always a thousand and one reasons why not; career, money, "education", a house, better car, can't afford it, see the world-, around which reasons, left to some "educated" folks, who know it all of course, the species left to them would simply become extinct.

Fortunately, there are enough of us men and women who just like each other enough, that we want to ****, set up house and raise families together. Which, without looking down on anybody, still allows for the queers and scholars who'd rather do strap-ons, bang chocolate highways and read books about life. :-)

The sweet mysteries of life, love, sex and natural selection, eh?

Coyote:

Not hostility, my friend.....merely wonderment at the notion that ANY child brought into this world of nutritional deficiencies and PCB's (et al) altering our DNA,is "better" than what came before. Are you proposing a culling of the herd?

Nahhh. The herd and nature culls itself. It's called natural selection. No need to do anything in this regard, I don't think.

We get outta line, don't take care of our own population numbers, go too far any one way or the other, nature itself will simply shrug us off like a bothersome mosquito. :-)

Which it may be in the process of already, with the excesses of capitalism and our own failures to understand and act.

Ya think, maybe?

Should read,"We don't need to do anything in this regard." (At least in the way which you imply. That was already tried and failed abysmally, in addition to criminally. :-)

But wouldn't it be better all around to have something less than catastrophic collapse........?

I think the solution to the problem lies therein my previous comment.

And the reality is, Canada has a declining population-, save for the burgeioning and onerous levels of immigration that the capitalist system imposes upon us as a virtue. Ditto the USA actually.

The minute one talks about "maintaining" and being opposed to "encouraging" never ending population growth, the economic system goes into crisis mode. It requires endless growth across the entire board, and does not tolerate talk of reducing or stabilizing growth. And when populations act one way to reduce their numbers, the system acts against them, to undercut their effect.

So yea, there are things, and certainly one really big and important thing that can be done, to bring "world" population growth and the demands we make upon the land, sea and resource base into line with sustainability. The population, through the widescale avaliability of practical birth control methodologies, where it is made widely available to them, especially women, are doing their part, in fact. (And we still don't have a male birth control pill, that provides more choice options to males.)

The problem is the really big one nobody wants to touch and is afraid of, for the socio-political conflict they know it will unleash-, and that is the problem of capitalism, the underpinning current economic system itself. And yet, dealing with capitalism and developing other democratic and economic models of society represents the single most real key to the solution.

Which we are going to be forced to deal with, or go down in the flames of eventual natural selection retribution anyway. The latter being nature's way of dealing with the problem when we do not.

The problem is not the mass of the citizenry, when they are given real options, but the ruling elites rooted in and insisting upon the political and especially economic status quo. And such persons as the apologists for capitalism as we encounter frequently here.

The above comment by myself was, of course, addressing the last question raised by Rick W, with whom I am actually more in agreement than disagreement. It is more he who yet seems unable to see that.

I just refused to get myself cut is all, because regardless, the world still needs it "breeder relationships". Passing on my genes is and was important to me. (Unless, of course, he advocates for human populations extirpating themselves, which would be where we part company. :-)

I do advocate for those men and women who want to take themselves out of the main breeding herd entirely though, doing so. :-) LOL. Like I keep saying, we don't need anymore unwanted, throw-away or latch-key children. Better these parents cull themselves out of the herd, no question. Which is not the same as advocating "culling" them out. :-)

Nice to see Ruby and Rick W on here... I was scrolling and scanning and rolling my eyes, a few chuckles and "oh, pleases" from Coyote's comments (but I feel I know the guy now, so I can only appreciate his words!) Then Rick's bang-on comment about women's higher education and an inevitable lower birth rate. A few years ago the former PM of Japan made some jackass comment that Japan's women should "stay home and breed"- something along those lines, and I don't know what the initial reaction was but today, Japan has the lowest birth rate on the PLANET. Seems like some kind of silent strike is in the works. Their population is actually declining.

Your article opens on a false premise:

There are men in this world who don't face the possibility of fatherhood with fear.

It's a decent portrayal of one side of a complicated issue though.

Fii I believe the Pope made a similar statement about Canadian birth rates & women not too long ago.

Many Japanese women are also choosing not to marry & the marriage rates are dropping too.

RickW - I already responded to the race-bait. No, my rationale is not racist. It's based on household resources and reduced cost to infrastructure and government, as well as concerns generated by the extemely problematic integration process (or lack thereof) we're current experiencing given the high influx. The Commissars of Multiculturalism have saddled us with a growing problem which we continue to ignore. For example, I'm a champion of pulling out all the stops to get the current generation of First Nations youth now going thru public school and high school (the largest generation in history) into university and polytechnical college seats at all costs. We can't afford to lost this generation the way we did all the previous ones. The human resource loss and social-healthcare drain will simply be too great.

Yes, I agree on the women's education = less babies point. I do support full integration of women into the public education systems worldwide (although I've become a convert to the efficacy and social benefits for both genders of sex-segregated education during adolescence only). Women must remain free the self-determine their reproductive fate. However, Motherhood is the hardest career of all, yet it receives no remuneration or recognition within the modern value-system. In fact, it is denigrated, and its place we now celebrate the barren, suited, shoulder-padded, attaché-case-wielding boardroom ball-buster as the highest form of life. Wrong priorities, bad value-system. I'd work on improving the deal for Canadian mothers irrespective of education.

Still mystified why a young man would go under the knife. Could it be a by-product of the whole condom-aversion syndrome? Not to make everyone uncomfy or anything, but I've met a sizeable minority of otherwise virile rock-solid men who find it all but impossible to maintain an erection in a condom. As soon as the latex goes on, it's like their freakin' mother just materialized in the room. It's as instant as an allergic reaction. Dunno, but that could be a co-factor in the psychology of all this stuff.

It's a decent portrayal of one side of a complicated issue though.

Amen.

And gotta tell ya, in the world I live in, surrounded by young and old working class folks, through all the gradations the predominant ambition of the young, male and female , is still to meet cmpatible mates and raise children. Now that may be a problem for some of you folks who think we should all get "fixed", and who clearly look down your snoots at that "undeducated" lower-class option, indeed no doubt, reading here, "educated" folks all, or what passes for "educated" in your world, but it ain't what most of us are experiencing.

I suggest you folks chase your muses,diddle yourselves silly, pound away with your strap-ons, put your seeds up your "friends" chocolate highway, and even delude yourselves that is "the way". And let's see who's still around "by extension" one hundred years from now. And whose "line" is extinct. :-) Amd that may sound like I'm mocking you, but I'm one hundred percent serious and sincere.

You make careers and get "edumacated" by ruling class "system" standards. We'll make babies. And let's see who gets culled out and who natural selection selects to move the future forward into the new millenias. (And we'll practice "prudent" birth control, where that option and the technologies are freely made available to us.)

Snobbery and looking down your nose at ordinary working class folks in the breeding herd is not evidence of your superior "education" or anything else. Merely that you bought into "the system's" bullshit-, and your own delusions of being "on a higher plane" of consciousness.

You feel sorry for us!? Hell, we feel sorry for you.

And it may sound like it, I appreciate, but there ain't an ounce of rancor in any of that. Most men and women are still marrying, and over half their marriages are still successful, however you measure it. Which in the context of evolution and the record of all other species and predilections is still, outstanding successful.

We've got problems and corrections to make. That's called life. It's never been any different. But for all our shortcomings, we're still the most successful species on the planet, hands down, thanks to the "breeding herd".

Gotta be doin' something right.

Suck that up, queers and dears. :-D LOL Though I repeat again, those of you what want out and into careers and into celibate or sterile, self-loving lifestyles, by all means. Go your way. You are part of the grand plan to control our numbers and keep from over-populating the earth too. Go for it.

Just excuse us if we don't all follow, okay? However "educated" you may present or delude yourselves to be-, from our breeder's perspective. 8-D LOL

nightbloom:

And teach them to be "white men"? I have a brother who has taught First Nations kids for twenty years, and his one overt observation was that, if the kids aren't interested, they just don't go to school. So his aim was to make the "white man's game" relate to something first nations could identify with. That was his toughest part. After that, it was a breeze.

Too many people "out there" simply say the indian is lazy, all because he refuses to be a white man. The system, to be a success for the first nations', is going to have to bend to suit them; and our educational institutions are not known for their flexibility.

That wasn't my meaning. They can be purple if they want to, but the aim would be to give them that option - tap their full potential and equip them to participate in the employment marketplace. Dunno what you're projecting, but it's not my views.

If your brother found a way to engage First Nations youth more effectively, then all the more power to him.

50 years ago if you proved to women you couldn't produce children, they would line up to go to bed with you. However none would want to marry you.
How the world has changed!!!

Nightbloom:
My signature on another forum:
"Son, if you wanna get ahead in this world, never work for another man as long as you live."
When we bend our education system more towards getting people to think they can do it on their own, we MAY be able to offerFirst Nations something they are interested in........

Interesting story, badly written.

Cripes, RW, if we had an education system like that I'd be in 24 Sussex or running the UN by now ;-)

Coyote: your tone suggests a certain defensiveness. Did you forfeit a lucrative career to raise a family? Methinks thou dost protest too much...

You remind me of those simpletons down at the carwash slaving their days away, only to return home to their cat-piss and diaper-smelling apartments, secretly regretting that education they let slip away...

Nightbloom:
Likely, we wouldn't need a 24 Sussex, if we'uns had such a system.......(not that having our very own 24 is doing us much good anyway!)
BTW, I want to thank you for getting me to think on the subject of First Nations. I've had a bit of a revelation that I want to check on before putting my foot in my mouth......