Dorothy: Thanks for another blockbuster movie review.

Coyote: Thanks for the background music. May I offer one objection to your reference "the great public yet remains obedient and docile."

If this were New Zealand, where any Kiwi can jump into the family jallopy and drive, within a day, to the steps of their sole level of Parliament (aptly re-named The Beehive), there would be a minior revolution under way in Canada at this moment.

But we're strung the hell-and-gone between three oceans, several languages, and disparate regional needs. This isolation is our pride but also, as with transportation, our special burden. When we need to huddle, we can barely reach one another with our screams.

Yet that awful mantra is thrown around us nonetheless: that Canadians are docile, complacent, and by implication, uncaring. Not so. Not fair. We're dancing as fast as we can, given the circumstances.

Forgive the effrontery but most of us feel we know you as a friend, by now. So I ask, please, put your great wisdom to the task of exploring how best to overcome those distances; how best to effect the differences we need. I'm so weary of the put-downs (even at the Olympics) which seem, of themselves, tailored to achieve their self-fulfilling prophecy of docility and obedience.

In terms of writing history, I'd say the Brits do a far better job than the Yanks. British historians have always had a substantial self-loathing, self-mortifying complement within their ranks. The most stinging condemnations of British imperialism is to be found on British bookshelves by British authors. Take AJP Taylor's excoriation of British inter-war policy. He all but blames Britain for the rise of Hitler and the subsequent destruction of Europe. Nobody anywhere else has gone as far as he did.

German historians do a pretty good job of it too. They take their history seriously. In fact, they practically invented modern historical method. You find too many apologists for German Imperialism in their ranks, that's for sure.

The Americans and French are the worst in terms of using history as a cypher for current ideological battles. But at least they acknowledge their atrocities, which Japanese historians have yet to do...

...that should have read: "You DON'T find too many apologists for German Imperialism in their ranks..."

Since we are talking about re-writing history, why limit it to the West and eastern European countries. Japan, China and the Middle East are also very good at it. The world needs the US so they can lay the blame on them and avoid looking at themselves. Even if you took away all the oil and US influence, the ME would still be a mess, mainly due to the cultural influence of tribalism.

Any film that relies on quotes from Jane Fonda, is suspect, The North Vietnamese’s called her a “useful idiot” and she hasn’t changed much. The claim that no one cares is wrong, it is a topic of conversation by most Americans both for and against, both sides arguing passionately for their beliefs.

The US is a world power and they cannot hide behind a wall of Isolationism, it did not work in 1941 and will not work now. They can either chose the time and place of the battles or allow their enemies to do so. Just the act of being the most powerful will be enough justification for some to attack you, in order to increase their own stature.

While people complain about the US, they bury their heads in the sand about the real crisis coming down the road, Islamfacism (for lack of a better term) But then the artists, filmmakers and journalists are to busy making anti-US material, because it sells better, plus they don’t have to worry about being kidnapped and having their heads cut off.

Colin, I agree. There's lots to criticize in U.S. policy, but I'm continually exasperated by utopians who try to turn it into an icon of evil. The U.S. is behaving as any and all the Great Powers always have. That doesn't make it right & good. But I have just enough of a sense of history and pragmatism to be thankful that it's the Americans and not the Russians or Chinese.

The international order for better or for worse is ultimately dependent on American power (supplemented by NATO - mainly Britain). A lot of good comes out of that, as well as some bad. Does anyone seriously believe that Venezuela, Pakistan and China would be more responsible wearing the Anglo-American mantle?

Sure, let's agitate to modify & moderate American policy.....But the people chanting "Down with America" and who want it totally out of the picture are simply misguided.

We have to accept the possibility that the American-dominated half-century between 1945 and 2000 may have been as good as it's ever going to get for a very, very long time.

Colin... Your views are so firm that no matter what happens you stand tall beside GI Joe. The fact that corporations like Lockhead Martin are sucking public money directly into private hands just doesn't register with you. It's for our own good you say. We need the deterent of a strong America. Better them than Russia or China others parrot. Just defending the good ol' USA you say, tired of people beating up on them, they're not doing anything different than anyone else in history, or what about the other extremists, killing indiscriminatly.... So we just keep getting the same results over and over again. It's just so obvious that any powerful nation is corrupt, and hence the rest have to follow suit to play the game. Soon the game will be over because not enough bodies piled in front of the TV to block desperate housewives. Because people like you seem to romantisize war. You said:

I just don't think you realize there is a better way. Do you really think we fight because we want to protect democracy? Or do we fight because their is profit to be made? Do you actually think this is the best democracy money can buy? It's all tied into Ed'd economic mantra, stolen profits, and transfered costs. You seem to have swallowed it hook line and sinker.

As a WW2 veteran, wounded in action etc. etc. I do have the right to say that I hate all military, all officers and all politicians who send people and all apologists for war with a passion.

Hero's death ? How many really are there ? Blown up by roadside bombs, or landmines, or ran over by the drunk drivers of supply trucks, then by a whole convoy, until only a few pieces of flattened equipment are left to show the death of a poor victim of war. Some heroism, people hang on to justify the losing of their loved ones.

After I recovered from my legwound I volunteered as an orderly, carrying bedpans and amputees aroud and holding the legs of about 100 as they were amputated and reamputated.

The vast majority from gangrene caused by frostbites, accidents and landmines, the spending their lives boasting of their exploits.

So much for the glory of war and heroism.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I think Eisenhower said it best when he called for an alert, informed & engaged citizenry. That's the best we can hope for. The utopian Noam Chomskies out there are singing a different tune altogether. They seem to want society re-made in their own image.

The average American citizen is pretty ill-informed (although it's gotten better as debate over foreign engagements has heated up).
That's the problem. The sad truth of the matter is that if you want boys & girls in the Third World to get an education (clean water, better living standards), we're going to have to start by educating little American boys and girls about the wider world.

Ironic that the fate of the globe hinges on the quality of American schooling, universities and media. Scared yet? We've all got a stake in cultivating an informed & sensitive American electorate. So far we're doing a shitty job of reaching out to vote-swaying constituencies in the U.S. Very little has been done to reduce the defensive knee-jerk phase now prevailing in American public opinion.

I have a name for Woodend to ponder: Shidane Arone. Only blinkered anti-americanism, recounting the many evils of their military interventions could fail to reflect on Canada's contribution to the horrors of war. The brutalizing and murder of this Somalian teenager by Canadian troops makes anything done at Abu Ghraib look like fraternity hazing.

But she's in good company: Canadians in general are either ignorant or indifferent to this atrocity and there is no stomach for pulling back the curtain on these matters.
We still believe that we are sending boy scouts and girl guides out into the conflict zones of the world, and as long as we take this marshmallow view we will not be serious players.

Where Americans consistently called for the heads of generals and politicians and effectively prosecuted scores of soldiers responsible for Abu Ghraib, Canada punished a few low-rank soldiers and could not even see through a Public Inquiry on the Somalian atrocity to a satisfactory conclusion.

We can learn a lot from American failures (and successes) but only if we take off the blinkers.

First, to Mary, while I think there is ample evidence of continuing docility in the Canadian public body politic, for which the only real reason is lingering lethargy and timidity, I do take much of your point. (Though you might want to revisit some epic Canadian social battles of the 1930s, the On To Ottawa Trek and the great Winnipeg General Strike, and no less around the leadup to the war against fascism. At a time when we were even more thinly spread out.) And it is depressing I concede.

There is a weariness and a surrender to corporate media, and its ideas and information manipulation though, which folks have obviously found simply overwhelming (read Colin below), and a daily grind to pay bills and put food on the table of very many that does keep them in a more or less forced state of subservience, I, for sure. Still, I think there is a reality that we all need to face up to about the current period and the public mindset. And little good is got from pretending it is otherwise.

I will, however, attempt to temper my impatience more, with the understanding that there are many such as yourself to whom this certainly does not apply, and for others, that there are quite natural fears around engaging the battle with "the system" that is nonetheless going to have to be fought eventually.

I would do this, if for no other reason than my respect for your opinion, good woman. And I would certainly not want to be held responsible for depressing you in any way. :-)

I will stand still for any criticism such as yourself might make of me. :-)

And Nightbloom too is right, while there is revisionist history there too, there is also a much larger core of principled intellectual opinion that does correctly remember and understand to depth. And as you say, especially in Britain and Germany, insists on holding the system to accountability and the real historical truth of their imperialisms.

Which is really just an assumption you make, to let US imperialism off the hook again Colin, for you cannot know it as certainly as you claim. And you at least need to acknowledge that for accuracy.

And in any case, given the nature and "socially stunting effect" of the long history of imperialist (primarily western) interference and "holding back" of Middle East modernizing and social change ambitions. (And knowledgable opinion familiar with the Middle East is as aware of that social pressure and desire for "modernity" being there as much or greater than the "conservative" fundamentalism which you tend to claim or make appear is all that is there.)

Nor should the vestiges of tribalism and religious fundamentalism clinging to life there be surprising. All communities under pressure, from internal class strife, or as is the case here, from external threat, tend to cling passionately and "conservatively" to their historical and social (tribal/national) roots. It's a simple fact observable everywhere.

Continued next post...

From previous post...

And of course they are going to have to engage in a social struggle within themselves, against ancient tribalisms and fundamentalisms, to overcome this negative historical influence of imperialism. Still, everytime progressive nationalism and regionalism attempts to rear its head in the Middle East, currently US imperialism with its junior partner Britain, is there to smack it down and steal their oil, or impose European solutions (Israel) on Middle East realities.

So essentially Colin, you continue to play the US apologist here-, as apparent to all as the nose on your face, could we see you. :-)

And indeed sir, certainly the Middle East and Latin America, along with the rest of the world and ourselves, would be much better off if Imperial Amerika was forced back to within its own borders, and forced to deal with its own internalproblems and find its own solutions based on its own resources. Unquestionably. You make but another handy Neocon ideologically motivated assumption that they cannot return to an earlier historical "isolationism".

Of course they can, and should be encouraged to do so.

Though nobody really is asking them to do that per se, entirely isolate themselves, but merely return their imperial armed forces back to within their own borders and stay the fuch there, and stop interfereing in the internaal affairs of other nations. (Which would allow them to focux manpower and treasure to dealing with the extensive problems they have there, on those borders, a whole hell of a lot better, and on such disasters as was wrought by Katrina on especially "black" US citizens in New Orleans etc.)

Again Colin, your intellectual currency here would rise substantially in value, if you could but rise above your apologists role for Amerika on this siter. And I do think you have that potential, whether that means anything to you or not.

Which clearly by now though, none of us should hold our breath waiting for.

Coyote: Haven't you found it sad that it was "halfway up Vimy Ridge" that Canadians experienced their first sense of nationhood? Sad, that it was the first time Canadians had been given their heads to plan, prepare, and carry out an action that neither the British nor French armies had been able to do?

Why? Well, in my mind it was because the isolation of Canadian life had melted away, bringing Canadian brain and muscle together in the push ... sad that it happened in the crucible of war.

No need to revisit the Post Office riots in Vancouver or the On-to-Ottawa Trek, or Dr Norman Bethune and the Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion of volunteers going to Spain to fight the first signs of Fascism. Or, for that matter, the downward side of that spiral: the shooting of Tim Buck while he was in jail for ... what was it? Those things and more, we're expected to forget. To enhance the isolation. To talk about other things like Reality T.V. I know that, Coyote.

What I meant, earlier, was that even those Canadian soldiers halfway up Vimy Ridge needed a plan, some preparation, a sense of appreciation, and a few hearty slaps on the back. They needed pride, as do we all.

And yet what I see, over and over, is a denial of the Canadian character, the Canadian potential. Don't tell me it isn't there. I know that it is there. But especially young Canadians need to know that somebody gives a damn, that the next guy will steady us when we stumble (or more important, will cheer when we're terrific). We need to hear that Canadians are so special that we're the only ones who can do this job, that job, any job or task required.

That's what I'm asking. Praise for Canada. Protection of the Canadian psyche. Understanding that we can't sky-write our feelings, but that the passion is there.

This, I hasten to add, has nothing to do with war. It simply arose, after reading about the obscenity of war, while thinking about peace.

Clubofhome

I am a realist, I see what the Chinese and the Russian did to countries under their control and sphere of influence and they are far worse than anything the US did or is doing. I have no problem with people working to make the world a better place, but I learned a long time ago, bending over and letting people abuse you does not make the world a better place. So some of us will fight and defend, while others build and teach. In this world, at this time it is the best we can hope for.

Hugo
I have a name for Woodend to ponder: Shidane Arone. Only blinkered anti-americanism, recounting the many evils of their military interventions could fail to reflect on Canada's contribution to the horrors of war. The brutalizing and murder of this Somalian teenager by Canadian troops makes anything done at Abu Ghraib look like fraternity hazing.

As disgusting as the treatment of the Somalian teen caught stealing stuff was, there is no way that that incident compares with horror that was Abu Ghraib under Saddam, did you know there was a mass grave found nearby? The US can be criticized for what went on there, but compared to the previous operators practices, what the US MP’s did was minimal.

Fait
My grandfather was a conscientious objector in WWI and served there as a stretcherbear and his unit was one of the first to be attacked by gas (before they had masks) I didn’t grow up on diet full of “heroism” actually the opposite. Unfortunately turning the other cheek does not always work.

Coyote

Well the nose on my face is defiantly “apparent” and I am glad my daughter got my wife’s nose (way cuter)

I will give a example of ME Islam Imperialism. Despite Islam being present in the Malay peninsula since the 1600’s, it did not really influence dress or culture to a great degree. Looking at photo’s from 20 years ago woman never wore headscarfs and happily strolled around in sarongs. Nowadays Muslim women in Malaysia are afraid to be seen without a headscarf thanks to the influence of radicals from the Arab world. This radicalism or Islamfascism is being spread everywhere including North America and they are looking for a fight.

As I said before Isolationist polices have not worked in the past, why do you think they will work now?

Tribalism and clans were useful elements at one time, but are now the most significant factor in impeding civil rights as the rights will take precedence over the duty to the tribe/clan. That is why the ME is a mess, until they are able to break that barrier, their society will suffer, as did ours.

As far as the apologist thing goes, I looked at my post and I did not see anywhere that I “apologized” for the US. I pointed out that they are not alone in their re-writing and that the comments about Abu Ghraib ignored the real horror that took place there.

But that’s ok, I consider you and a few others as apologists’ for all the mucked up countries that would rather blame the US than fix their own problems.

Every time I read your posts I wish I had the Marixt/Mao version of “buzzword bingo”. But all jesting aside, I do appreciate that the tone of your comments are now much more civil and it certainly makes your posts much more interesting to read and respond to.

Sorry this was a quote from Hugo

That was an odious incident that set the Canadian Forces back years in terms of its relations with the Canadian public and its self-image. It was not representative of the Canadian military, however. I was in uniform at the time that happened. Nor was it derived from signals sent from higher up the chain of command (as the Abu Ghraib fiasco was).

Moreover, insufficient attention has been paid to the role (meth?)amphetamines played in that psychotic episode, which were then being distributed the troops on patrol at the time. We know better now, of course.

Strange, I was actually just thinking about this on my way into work this morning: nobody ever mentions the meth-binge those teenagers were on when Mathew Shepherd was murdered (ref. that infamous gay-killing in Wyoming in the late nineties).

To bring attention to such causal explanations would clearly detract from the political usefulness of either murders to the liberal-Left.

It appears to me that many nations do not hinge their future on the education of American boys and girls. Or Canadian ones for that matter. Venezuela seems to happy kicking US butt out of their country. Bolivia has their own idea of foreign policy tied into the Coca plant. Probably tired of seeing the largest Drug dealer in the world taking in all the profits. It's not a war on drugs, it's an investment. Drugs play a critical role in the twisted US foriegn policy game. Just another one of the utopian Chomski tunes for you? Explain to me why the assassinations in the 60's were investigated to about the same extend as the collapse of the twin towers? They need a bad guy to point the finger at. A patsy. Oswald, Sirhan, James Earl Ray... Sorry I don't buy that. Coyote said it best anyway, Just read his posting, I tend to be all over the map with my assumptions.... But I agree that the US needs to come home and take care of it's own. Detox from their oil, fat and illusions of grandeur addictions. Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves will soon see what is required to raise the living conditions in the poorest societies. Just how did that happen that we got so rich and they are so under developed? What stroke of genius put us on the road to riches and them in poverty lane? You can try and educate folks about their consummer addictions, but mostly people don't see the connection between your trips in the SUV to Super Store & Block Buster and third world poverty. The inability to curb these addictions will get us all killed.

cluboframe - sounds like you want to change human nature rather than the political system...

I certainly don’t think the US government truly understands the part the lowly coco plant plays in the lives of the people of the Ande’s mountains. It is a medicinal herb and is used to deal with oxygen deficits at high altitude. However the US does need to be concerned about the misuse of the plant, as does the Bolivian government regardless of who is in charge. The Inca punished misuse of the plant severely and had strict laws on the subject, so controlling it has been part of Bolivian culture long before it became the problem it is today.

As far as Chavez is concerned, as be wary of anyone that insists the “revolution” must continue, because sooner or later everyone will lose something to that revolution. The real test will come when Chavez is supposed to step down and then suddenly decides to become president for life. I certainly hope I wrong.

Face to face discussions sure have advantages.... Sorry night, can you expand on that a bit please?
My stab in the dark would be that we all have a bag full of instincts and then we start the road of gathering experience which is our education. So, what I would say is that our forced education is in conflict with our hereditary instincts. We are losing the ability to see the difference between right and wrong. Or we just don't care or we're becoming desensitized to it.... Something like that...

Wow...this is slightly off-topic, but I was just scanning a Conference Board of Canada report released today. Here's an unpromising exerpt:

Looks like even bigger change is on the way.

"Colin the realist".... I can't let you drag me into a history contest, where I can only tread water at best... It seems very "John Wayne" like to be able to pick the USSR and China as the evil Communist atrocity doers... when the US wades into that arena too. What's the point of splitting hairs over atrocities. I just don't see for example, the company that decided it would place a patent on Basmati rice or their version or it, or the Monsanto line of terminator seeds, I just don't see how putting farmers out of busniness so they can buy up the land is any less significant than the corruption behind the iron curtain. They beat you and put you in prison. The Corporation steals your land and puts you in poverty relying on food aid. What do they both have in common? Power, Greed....etc Is that human nature? Or is that learned behavior?

C'mon - placing the United States on the same moral plane as the USSR and China is relativism of the most brazen variety.

How many people died in Stalin's purges, or his mass relocations of ethnic minorities? Those realities were suppressed for decades.

And Lord only knows what's been going on in China...

I'm not saying that the U.S. doesn't have its dirty laundry...and they do "do imperialism" nasty (more like the Belgians and Dutch than the British). But they are a constitutional democracy at least.

The Conference Board of Canada just explained (above) what I've been trying to say to Coyote.

I've been called Brazen before ...and a hussey too. C'mon yourself! Step out of that box and try and answer some of my questions! I really want to know what you think. What is the common thread that keeps us on the path to destructive behavior? Yes, I agree on the surface the US sort of resembles a hijacked constitutional democracy! I'm not saying the individual John Wayne is evil, or the head of Shell Oil is a rapist. Individually they are probably nice folks shaking their heads at what is happening around them the same as you and me. But collectively they have a big footprint, and during their trek around the globe they squash a lot of innocent people. So when someone points it out, you and Colin go....WELL! PFTHTTTT....The Chinese and Russians are way worse than that! Come on! That's not a debate! Contradictions are down the hall, third door on the left.

There is no magical answer to human avarice & brutality, cluboframe. That seems to be what you're looking for.

The patterns of behaviour you decry have been going on for centuries (nay, millennia). The solution was & is to build up and preserve (and slowly adapt) institutions which moderate, tame and channel these forces. This is the essence of true conservatism.

Unbridled Corporatism has been misidentified by the Left as a conservative disease. In fact, it exists on a different axis entirely from the Left/Right spectrum, and is not only reflected in those capitalist constructions that are known by the coincidental homynym "corporation".

Corporatism is an alternate model of society, to which the far Left falls prey just as readily as the far Right. Corporatism is a form of hierarchal collective interest moderation which totally effaces the individual citizen.

Elected Assemblies, impartial judiciaries, a responsible executive branch, constitutional processes, common law, habeus corpus, traditional & separated & moderate religious doctrines and hierarchies....combined with a commonly excepted civic ethos and collective and unifying folklore and/or national myth (yes...the Straussian "Noble Lie").... This is the historical sediment which has slowly built-up our relatively free and democratic society. This is the ancient and delicate coral reef which liberal-Left vandals have been bleaching & acid-washing into exctinction over the past three generations in their rapacious search for both new constituencies and ideological legitimacy.

good article Dorthy

a few discrepancies here and there...nothing to argue over though.

TO THE VICTOR GO THE SPOILS...and that's one of the reasons ,why we fight!!!

that we nowadays have the time to sit around and rehash historical events...show we are the VICTORS.we are fat and comfortable cats compared to the CHINESE,AFRICANS,RUSSIANS...keep naming them if you want...

but when people are fat and docile...well you get soldiers that fight like little kids...FRIGHTENED AND OUT OF CONTROL...WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE...that's different.

that is why every conflict since has been televised to the N'th degree... it's the best REALITY television SPONSORS could ever hope for...

THE INDUSTRIAL MILITARY COMPLEX OF THE SIXTIES MADE PROFITS IN THE TRILLIONS...THIS IS RECORDED FACT...AND DURING THAT TIME CANADA'S DOLLAR WAS HIGHER THAN THE YANK BUCK....

who say's war isn't good for the ECONOMY...you who did not support the war probaly bought products from canadian manufactures that did

AND THAT'S WHY WE FIGHT....AND WILL FIGHT TILL WE WIPE EACH OTHER OUT...THE POWER OF ONE ,OVER THE OTHER.GREED.................COMFORT

I don't know if anyone else sees this as relevant but it seems to me that a very big part in this (in terms of American foreign policy and the role of the military industrial complex) is simply the fact that US foreign policy and international hegemony exists in the vacuum left over when American democracy ceased to be an effective institution.

Isn't it a fact that most Senators and members of the House are practically sinecures in terms of the likelihood of a many of them losing the next election? For anyone who hasn't read it, David Beers's book, Blue Sky Dreams, talks passionately about how the effects of the power of the Pentagon and big defence contractors (and the people who move freely between them and government) have affected the way Americans see themselves and how they play their role in the world.

Are Americans blind to what is done in their name - probably not more than in any other modern consumer culture. It's just that frequently there isn’t much of an alternative for the average American - democracy is dysfunctional and collecting things and acquiring stuff is ostensibly the only compensation for real involvement with community – and certainly that’s exactly what the media are busy and profitably promoting as the golden road to happiness and satisfaction.

What goes on in the military – pretty carefully managed in the present instance – is largely irrelevant to the mass culture back home so long as their cars still un and their ipods are full.

So, what's the real problem? Is US foreign policy in any realistic and meaningful way the product of carefully considered democratic decision-making? I think the similarities between what the American military is about these days and the history of various other imperial projects is what is really being debated here.

What everyone's really talking about, I think, is almost a corollary of the outrage that a lot of Canadians are feeling over the Emerson move. The disjunction between the practical operation of democracy and the reality of how a modern state actually organizes itself and goes about its daily business.

para 4 above, last line: 'un' should be 'run', sorry

Well first Nightbloom, every nation has to be seen in its own historical context. And it depends some on the perspective we are looking at it from . For none, or very few, stand before history with fully clean hands.

In my view, and I think that of future, more objective analysis by historians, Stalin is more likely to be seen for what he in fact represented. He was the most dramatic indicator of the time that the original intent of the 1918 Revolution, as a worker-peasant revolution against Russian feudalism and emerging capitalism, had suddenly become something quite different and more ominously familiar with fascism and gangsterism in fact. And you identify that more or less correctly, I think, though with an insufficiently fine point. He was to the Russian Revolution of 1918 what Robespierre was to the French Revolution for Capitalism, to put it only some crudely
.
To me, looking back now, with the benefit of our hindsight, his emergence from the shadows of that revolution was what indidcates to me that "the revolution" had already failed-, though the "Communist" facade or front and its symbols continued to be maintained and genuflected to until relatively recently. But the point being that Stalin was the prime indicator that the so-called "Communist Revolution" had already gone off the rails, and could in fact, contrary to Lenin's view, could not, as Marx had maintained, be built in a backward, largely peasant society that had not yet gone through the changes of advanced capitalism. (And all the "communist revolutions" sinces, more accurately the great "wars of liberation" from imperialism in more or less "undeveloped" countries has confirmed that, I think. And which has confirmed, at least to my read of the tea leaves, that all countries likely have to pass through capitalism on the road to modernity.)

Indeed I think we can see Stalin's echo, conversely enough, in the gangster class that has emerged, like the "pirate and slave running gangsterism" that laid the private wealth foundations of the later "capitalist class" in its own European revolutions that begin with Cromwell, to much run modern "capitalist" Russia. (The first purge victims of Stalin in fact, were of the Communist Party itself, and especially those revolutionaries who had provided much of the leadership for the 1918 Revolution itself. Later it was turned against the entire Soviet people.)

And again, as for who has killed the greater numbers of people, it much again is a question of what "bodies" you include in that head count. The US Revolution itself was relatively geographically isolated from Europe, and was able to take advantage of the fact that Great Britain itself was much bogged down and more concerned really about its European wars going on at the same time. So the early US revolutionaries actually had a relatively easy time of it. Latin America right now is in a similar situation vis a vis the US and its Middle East wars.

And then, of course, US imperial capitalism's hands only "appear" cleaner if we do not include in that head count all those killed in its many "dirty wars" and imperial incursions into Latin America, for which there is no stats that I know, and again if we do not include the interferences in Korea, the bloody slaughters of Vietanm, and currently the Middle East.

And I certainly include all these victims in my head count, I'll tell you, in terms of the blood toll it has taken to maintain capitalism. That they have not been carried out on US soil is neither here nor there to me. Indeed all the old colonial powers of Europe, and German fascism, stand with relatively similar volumes of blood running from their hands.

Continued next post...

From previous post...

So clearly, current Amerika stands with its hands as much dripping with blood as any or nearly any of the great blood letting regimes of history. And Stalinist Russia is now already ancient history. (How e're much it and that experience still needs to be learned from, especially for "the left".) The US Empire , however, remains the immediate and continuing standing threat-, only marginally less to us even.

And we haven't even yet talked about the US slaughter of the Native Innocents which occurred and still occurs in other guises, to even get what has become the US Empire off the ground.

So you are only seeing and including what you "want" to see and include, Nightbloom. And it is far from a comprehensive analysis.

Though I would much wish to study this above statement further before giving a thorough reply to it, off the top of my head there is much about it with which I agree. And this too, especially, is what the old USSR under especially, but not exclusively Stalin, fell into, or was forced by its global and survival realities of the time. For it is my contention, whatever labels were applied to things and phenomenon at the time, what actually evolved in the Soviet Union and elsewhere, including China, where it is actually most obvious currently, is a kind of monolithic "state capitalism", with the State acting as the capitalist, and there were/are no more working class rights and democracy than in any other capitalist society. Indeed, less democracy in very many regards, where the west has the benefit of a long history of working class struggle to win and institutionalize some democracy for itself, women, etc..

Rather than "liberating" the working class and peasantry in fact, in the State Capitalisms that in fact emerged, however much they declared themselves as "communist", or what even were their original "revolutionaries'" intentions, as history has confirmed everywhere those "communist systems" were applied, they in fact came to lay the "ruling class" and other economic and social foundations for the eventual emergence of capitalism. And save for Cuba, yet, there has been no expception.

Indeed, "the left" fell as much into the trap of "corporatism" in that time, at the end of the day, effectively and near completely, including within the capitalist countries, nearly as much did the extreme right. I think that is an essentially correct observation of yours.

And which "the left" of our day needs to recognize and own up to, and correct in the future "progressive" political and economic solutions it develops, for a more completely democratic and liberatied model of egalitarian as opposed to "elitist dominant" society.

G.West,

And a very good post immediately above me here, and with which I much agree.

BC Mary,

And for all the faults it turned out to have Mary, and the good intentions no less, those events you descibe of "that previous time" was the "university" which this working class kid was educated in and around. And generally, though a lot of it didn't work out as we thought and hoped it might, it was an exciting time, and I do not regret it a smidge. It educated me, who had little to no formal education. (There were many outstanding characters who might still find their place in the working class history that needs to be written, eh?)

This time actually still pales and is anaemic alongside that one.Though hopefully, it will change-, and there are, like I say, tentative signs. :-)

We are expected to buy washing machines, North American built autos and over-consume on trans fatty acid-laced, processed edibles.

There will be no war when we understand our alotted role within corporatism.

It will be terrorism or, if you happen to disagree with the status quo, revolution.

Ed Deak, your words are very important. It's all about perspective.

Coyote, keep on forcing these neo-cons to look at another perspective. Truth isn't their goal, it's power, pure and simple.

Indeed Allan, it is not. All one has to do is listen to the rigid, raving insistance of their repetitive posturing here to see that. They're about maintaining the status quo system of privilege and inequality, not finding a path forward into a more progressive future for the great numbers of ordinary people.

Thank you, Allan. We shall maintain the pressure, as best we can, eh-, and win in the end. :-)

"They're about maintaining the status quo system of privilege and inequality, not finding a path forward into a more progressive future for the great numbers of ordinary people."

---
So, why should the ordinary people wait for them to do so, when they never will? It seems to me that the way ahead is to find models of cooperation and models of approaches to life, which are not resting on consumerism. The only power we have lies in our consumer-dollar, what there is of it. Things change when attitudes change. Attitudes change by people seeing convincing evidence that there is a better model, or models.

When our children were small, we took them out on camping trips that were arranged in such a way as to see how little in the way of ‘technology’ we could do with. They greatly enjoyed these trips and have grown to be people who are incarnate minimalists, who never give out a dollar, or expend a resource without thinking twice.

If we did not believe, that chipping away at attitudes could change the world, we would not bother writing here. The only commodity this world now has a surfeit of is people. Therefore, obviously that is the one to work with. In fact, it’s all we’ve ever had. We have only deluded ourselves that there were all these forms of riches and ‘solutions’ and gods and gurus, who would ‘save us’. Truth is, that no matter how absurd the idea of the old baron might seem, hauling himself out of the muck by his bootstraps, this is what’s on offer, absurd or not. We must look for that small spark inside our own mental arsenal known as transcedentive and transformative power, as in ‘a negative pushed hard enough will eventually break through into its positive counterpart.’

Bon appetit!

Well, we are agreed on the question at least, Dorothy.

And we are agreed also to here,"It seems to me that the way ahead is to find models of cooperation and models of approaches to life, which are not resting on consumerism."

From which point thereafter, though "consume" with its consequences is one of the really big things people do, I think we have what is mostly a disagreement, nor not even that so much, but an attitudinal and "tactical focus difference of opinion." (Not in itself a bad thing. For disagreement very often precedes agreement. :-)

Maybe its more just that we males tend to butt heads with those whom oppose us, I don't know, more convinced of the actual world changing value of that behaviour, over the more classic feminine approach of maintaining the family peace at all costs. (With some significant exceptions on both sides of the gender line approach. For I have known a fair number of head butting women in my lifetime as well.)

And no doubt there is a value to the "quantitative" chipping away attitude, for I use it all the time myself, and likjewise social movements generally-, but always looking to those, rare I concede, historical moments or opportunities which that does and has to lead to, of small changes in "quantity" finally leading to the more substantial "qualitative change" in the fundamental character or reality of a thing or phenomena-, such as "society", people, their movements, democracy and influence in this case.

In the end though, while individuals, their attitudes, levels of understanding and what they do and don't do are important, it is the power they have the potential to wield along a broad and social front, when everything and they as a collective interest and entity finally comes together, that has the capacity to really change social reality and history, over mere "individualist actions" of their own, in isolation.

And finally, I would only observe, because I think as you come to the end of your piece, that this immediately above is what you wind up advocating for, the solution of the "isolated individual", related to the "great man" notions of capitalist ideological theory. Indeed, it is this "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, boy!" mantra, that is precisely the course of action the current ruling class system advocates for. And they do that because, again, it isolates individuals from each other, and thereby weakens their "whole" potential, knowing full well that circumstance and opportunity will favour some individuals, while the great mass will fall by the wayside, or eventually surrender to their own conclusions of inadequacy. And that will happen simply because, like the classic pyramid scheme, which capitalism fundamentally is, there is simply not room enough at the top for everybody, and it is organized to precisely maintain it that way-, or who will do the actual goddamn nitty gritty shit work to provide all "the get rich opportunities" for those at the top.

So, assuming I read you correctly, and your writing "thought process" I find difficult to understand sometimes, I would only conclude or summarize that, in the context of changing the character and class/social/economic realities of current society, in my view and experience, while strong "individuals" are certainly important and a precondition to success, it is how they then organize themselves and what they do as groups/movements which really multiplies their power and potential to shake the earth and change social reality.

If I misread you, always possible in these exchange of views situations, I shall stand to be chastized and corrected. As difficult that is to do with my essentially "combative" nature. :-)

Well, what I tried to express is, that it is the sum of individual actions that ultimatemy make up the whole. The organizational aspects were not the focus, I must admit, but of course must be addressed.

I have worked as a local labor leader and in that capacity started out with some very fine ideas of being non-rankist (plase refer to Robert Fuller’s web site for this term, if it isn’t already familiar to you):

http://www.breakingranks.net/

Eventually, I learned the hard way, that there is a vast stretch of unoccupied land between people’s sense of convenience in being told what to do next, and their need for proud autonomy. Strange and unexpected parameters play a role, such as the need to ‘bask in reflected glory’, etc.

When it comes to innovative approaches to the nitty-gritty, I am convinced that seeing is believing. Therefore, I have a strong faith in person-to-person interaction as a learning tool. If you want to change the world, you must be the embodiment of the change, and you must be seen to be successful as a consequence of the change.

I believe, just as you do, that there is a dirty plot afoot to protect privilege. I believe it is engineered by the gangs of America, today known as corporations. Their story:

http://www.gangsofamerica.com/gangsofamerica.pdf

makes a fascinating read.

I also believe that we must dig deep into the roots of society, if we want to get our shovel under their stranglehold on everything. Here are some thoughts to be picked up:

http://www.empathicparenting.org/

I believe this is where we start dealing with people’s sense of inadequacy. Schools, at least the ones that had a go at mangling the self-esteem of my own offspring and their friends, are, knowingly or unknowingly, complicit in this. They spend 12 years taking the stuffing out of people, so they will spend the balance of their lifetime trying, in vain, of course, to buy back that stuffing. Good consumers!

Back to the organizing. The problem with revolutions is, that they eat their own children. If we create a counter-mob to the mob now in power, we have really changed nothing, just continued a cycle. To break it, I believe we must work the chipmunk way. One citizen at a time. Yes, that is possibly ‘feminine’, but I believe it will get us a good building with strong foundations, that can stand in a storm. And storms will come, that is certain.

Maintaining the family peace, not at all costs, but realizing for sure that one should not draw a gun without the intent of ultimately pulling the trigger, and anticipating correctly, how much blood 4.5 liters is, poured out on the floor…and then realizing, that there may be less messy ways of making headway, also ones that are much more difficult to combat for your adversaries, so that you may persevere rather than ‘go out with a bang’, however euphoric that thought may appear.

Hope this is clearer. If not, do not hesitate to query.

I enjoy the history lessons, thanks to all of you! Just one more point if I may nightbloom. You say this behavior has been going on for millennia, but I think, as Coyote put it, that may be a narrow view. My theory is that there is a defective gene, and that is why humans have taken two very different paths. There are indiginous peoples who seem to have developed fine culture and society, living in harmony with the natural world then there is the mess you see now. The cumulative effect of centuries (nay Millennia) of consumption. I'm not looking for any magical answers, none exist. In a world so complex there are too many variables, too many directions we could have gone. What I would like you to admit is that we are beyond any doubt, on the road to self destruction. I like many here will not be around to witness the demise, but I can say for sure that it's already started. It's all well and good to say we've been acting this way forever. The difference is now it's 6 billion + people dividing up the shrinking pie. That's going to be quite some food fight for the last few crumbs!

All ideologies claim this as their end. Wake up. All human structures will assimilate elements of privilege and inequality, irrespective of the ideological bent of their particular syllabus. I'm not defending the status quo - I'm just wary of any and all snakeoil salesmen who claim to have a magic solution if only we would throw everything in the trash heap & jump on their bandwagon.

Then again I'm not sure if that was directed at me - I've been trying to cut back on my "raving" (altho I do enjoy the occasional dramatic over-statement just to liven up my otherwise dull-as-nails posts). I've never subscribed to the "neo-con" label although I do consider myself conservative on most of the big questions, and liberal on most of the smaller everyday questions of application. I think that just makes me a classic conservative.

I wouldn't equate the modern day political "gangsters" with the Stalin phenomenon. Stalin was the state. Here we have something different, like a schizoid constitutional oligarchy, in which the political theatre of government takes place independently from the actual decision-making and implementation. It's post-Gracchi pre-Augustan Rome all over again. We have to find a smart way to adapt our current system that avoids some of the worst of what follows.

Something systemic is happening here. The classic liberal democratic constitutional nation-state is being subverted on both sides of the ideological axis. Francis Fukuyama was wrong when he (like some kind of reformed Marxist) proclaimed the End of History with the globalization of liberal capitalist models of governance and commerce. It's possible that the last 80 years of true democracy (universal sufferage did not occur until WWI) and relatively open society will simply turn out to have only been a moment in time - something our grandchildren will read about.

Cluboframe - the "noble savage" myth is a pernicious liberal invention whose roots go right back to Rousseau himself. It's misconceived nostalgia that does nothing to help resolve the dilemmas we're now faced with.

Great, more homework.... Thanks a lot nightbloam... ;)

nightbloom

At bottom, I think there's not much doubt that most people - all around the world - want to live in a modern, convenient, comfortable safe and technically advanced state; the confusion, and the problems, begin when one assumes that that kind of state is always going to be intrinsically democratic.

So, maybe our desire for 'stuff' and comfort, happiness if you will, is what everyone's after and we'll take that, thank you very much, however we can get it whether from a democracy or an oligarchy doesn't much matter. Modern China would be a good example of reaching to achieve those goals without having first gone the democratic way.

Living in harmony with Nature
Absence of crime
Generosity
Innocence
Inability to lie
Physical health
Moral courage
Lack of sexual inhibitions
Unusual intelligence

Yup, I'd have to agree with you there, this is all misconceived nostalgia....
I may be able to help you with your "dull-as-nails" posts. No one is offering snake oil here as a magic solution, if anything we are all as perplexed as you are. From taking personal responsibility to stop the consummer treadmill to organizing.... no one solution is going to lead us to sustainability. As I said above the variables are infinite. Perhaps our nature is to go forth and conquor, and so we'll just pay the price for that stupidity. If we can't get along then we'll have to....parish! The sooner we do, the sooner the Dolphins can take their place as the guardians of this green, but mostly blue planet.... right Frank?

G West Just curious... do you believe it's possible for everyone here on earth to achieve these goals of modern comfort, convenience, safety... this general definition of happiness?

cluboframe - those are commendable qualities (the second last one could use a few dozen qualifiers however....We're humans, not bonobo chimpanzees...and even they respect at least one essential taboo).

I'm not saying we don't have anything to learn from indigenous cultures all over the world. We've already lost a wealth of knowledge through the extinction of languages, folklore, religions and art.

Rousseau's Noble Savage is summarized by his observation in the Social Contract that "Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains".

The assumption underlying this is that - like Adam & Eve before eating from the Tree of Knowledge - we are born into a state of bliss and simple perfection. That is our natural childlike state. Our structures (familial, social, political, educational, religious, etc.) make us evil. This was a departure from both the theology of Rousseau's day and classical philosophy, which held that good & evil were both intrinsic to man's nature (I'm simplifying here - there were huge disagreements). Therefore the basic Rousseauist liberal program was to radically alter and/or dismantle those societal structures according to a rational evaluation of the potential positive effects of change in order to restore man to his "natural" good self.

But what if Rousseau was wrong? What if all those human flaws are actually inborn? What if they are an essential part of the tension which holds human societies together? Even Rouseau conceded that the wise law is that which complements the natural flow of human nature, channelling it into models & structures which provide the greatest common social benefit. When viewed in this fundamentally conservative light, the nature of our social structures become much less black-&-white. They are evolved (yet flawed) mechanisms of the common good. Thus, (one example) sexual restraints are not simply instruments of repression, but are also vital instruments of protection.

Rousseau's view of sexuality was somewhat idiosyncratic. He made no bones about it - suffice it to say he liked being dominated, spanked & humiliated...which he attributed in true liberal fashion to (you guessed it) early childhood experiences.

But seriously - Aren't liberals really assuming the impossible task of changing human nature itself? I'm not sure how much the Noble Savage paradigm can help us to solve our current international dilemmas.

What I'm saying is that the recurring problem of war transcends the political spectrum. It's not about bad-Right and good-Left (as some would have it). There was little moral difference between Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia (although Stalin killed many, many more people, that is now beyond doubt).

The U.S. today is behaving as all major imperial powers always have - in spite of a constitution, a judiciary, a Congress, and a reasonably education & engaged citizenry. War will always be with us, and all attempts to moderate and "legalize" its "correct" waging will always be pure contingency - a thin overlay of morality to be jettisoned in extremis.

Okay - I've decided I've gotta start shortening my posts here...

G West - "Arab socialism" is (was?) also another example of the masses being paid off with prosperity and government health/education in lieu of democracy.

the NOBLE SAVAGE MYTH is as ridiculous as anything that comes out of MANS mouth !!! and so are the studies of man!!!

these are BIASED ,because they are FORMULATED by man..........if there was another species studying us,you can bet they would not be waxing eloquent about their MURDEROUS NEIGHBOURS on this planet.

read LORD OF THE FLIES...

we are OPPORTUNISTIC INTELLIGENT HUNTERS AND GATHERES....just like the VULTURES that circled our kills on the early plains near the MUCK and MIRE...every creature crawled out of...

every creature on this planet has a DNA structure...and one thread difference...YOU COULD HAVE BEEN A JACKAL...OR A PEACOCK...

as an ex soldier/mercenary i saw many who could kill without batting an eye...that every soldier becomes traumatized after war is the same mytholodgy we attach to humans...it's a joke!

we are a COSMIC JOKE...thinking we are SOMETHING SPECIAL !!!

WE KILL TO EAT...WE KILL TO ATTAIN POWER...WE KILL TO BE COMFORTABLE...KNOWING OUR ENEMIES HAVE BEEN VANQUISHED !!!

we sleep in peace...

LOvely article and two wonderful movies about things americans who these years seem to have forgotten what america used to be about - freedom, activism and old fashioned stuff like that. Now they stick their heads in the Bush, watch Dr Phil, and sober up with Springer - god doesn't bless america no mo'.

clubofrome
Generally attainable happiness as a realizable goal?
Good question.
Actually, I think it was sometime last year, the Atlantic Monthly had one of its occasional features on international surveys about things like satisfaction and happiness. This survey showed, as I recall, that the highest scores for satisfaction and happiness came from a group of islands in the South Pacific where the GDP was less than $1,000(US). So I guess a lot depends upon circumstances and how you define your terms but having a lot of stuff doesn't appear to be much of a guarantee in the happiness and satisfaction department. Using that as a matrix for our discussion maybe we could make a lot more people happier than they are now without breaking the bank.
In the end, I’m not much of a believer in Utopias. The point I was trying to make was simply that the notion of democracy as a holy grail may not actually be what a lot of individuals really care about.

nightbloom

Good point, places like Dubai, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, etc. Not much democracy there. I'm sure there are others. In some ways what we've got here in North America is a kind of oligarchy in the sense that the folks who run the military and the government aren't really very troubled by anything more than the 'formal' requirements of democracy. Look at the US Senate, for example. How many of those guys are ever thrown out in an election? Most of them die in harness because they've got the levers of the system so well oiled and under control that what actually happens with the voters doesn't matter a damn. It's just a complicated procedural dance of keeping the economy bubbling along while everyone spends like a madman and pretends they’re happy.

"But seriously - Aren't liberals really assuming the impossible task of changing human nature itself? I'm not sure how much the Noble Savage paradigm can help us to solve our current international dilemmas."

---Only naive liberals think that way. We cannot take mankind back to some theoretical zero and then try to redraw the map according to the 'right' couse from there. All effective education starts where the student is now. And if there is any paradigm we must above all adopt now in order to survive, it is that of the student. We must be students of the past and present, of each other, of what is left of the globe that sustains us, of what ideas we can come up with to go forward without causing causing any more havoc and wreckage. Some have started along that path, but it is perilous, since there are powerful vested interests, who are obsessed with cramming material wealth and 'power' into theit own kitbag as if that would stave off for them the same end that waits for the most miserable pauper. It is the sick obsession of these people, which is the greatest foe to any real progress. Think, think, and think again, open your eyes and SEE, and liberate yourselves from the stranglehold of these people and their commercial hoaxes. Resolve never to buy another 6/49 ticket in your life, and you will have started tasting freedom.

Interesting discussion with many good points that could be debated, but the time is not here right now, for me.

Suffice it for me to say in passing, first to dorothy, of course there is no going back in time to some imaginary new starting point. What occurs to move history and society forward starts from here, no doubt certainly in my mind.

And to Nightbloom, no, I see you as you describe yourself, more or less,, really "politically" straight and conservative, but more a "progressive" conservative than the current "neocon" label would suit.

Outside of that, on the fly, I would only observe that it is the current status quo capitalism that holds the grand prize for its throwing up of snake oil or used car salesman for political and ideological leadership, amongst which I would certainly include Emerson and Harper, my friend. And it is that is the problem and we need to find a way to move society and democracy beyond. The system as it is, is essentially a snake oil salesman's system.

And again brother, it is another one of your "assumptions" that society is incapable of moving beyond its current "inequalities", merely because that is the way it has been, if not forever, then certainly throughout the history of class societies. Nothing is likely to ever be perfect or problem free, for sure-, but I certainly do not share "this" particular "assumption" with you, anymore than I do the "assumption" of an "intervening God hand" out there in time and space somewhere.

Now, I must run. A good day to you all.

changing the way we think has always been the mantra of the DREAMERS ...

MACHIAVELLI's"THE PRINCE" puts politics into the most brief and succint tome ever written.

paraphrasing the author about the general populace...keep them occupied ...shows we do know what's happening...but we are to busy feeding ourselves/like jackals at a carcass uneasy about the lions approaching.

it has always been...every man for himself !

and when society stops having mini wars such as the OLYMPICS...MAYBE WE MIGHT LOOK AT LIVING MORE PEACEFULY...

it's SIMPLISTIC...but i'm watching TEAM CANADA SMOKE THE CZHEKS...then again...i'm CANADIAN...and an old WARRIOR...so pucks or bullets ! I'M THERE !

and all those kids being held aloft after scoring...and the ADVERTISING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AS MY ALL TIME FAVE COMIC HERO ONCE SAID..."I HAS SEEN THE ENEMY! AN THE ENEMY IS US ".

NO TRUER WORDS HAVE EVER BEEN SPOKEN...

as a REALIST... i know we will always be at each others throats...but in my heart there is POGO wanting something better...

those that have been FORCEFED crap all their lives...will not be easy to teach different morals and ethics to...BUT...you may get close to their offspring...IF THE GOVT. LETS YOU ...

remember who decides the teaching CURRICULUM...remember who controls the AIRWAYS...

DAMN..THE CHZEKS JUST SCORED !
NOW...am i brainwashed ...or patriotic ???

and it looks like the enemy has gotten their second wind...and is pounding on the gates...

every day is a BATTLE !
cynisism............or inspiration ???

we all must make things better...or ...perish
and every great society before us...has declined...as will ours...WHAT'S NEXT ?

i can tell you as a REALIST....going to be a whole lot of fighting for what's left !!!

It's been said that all of humankind, given a choice would choose peace and order over war and chaos. Except for the genetic defectives, I'd say we might have a chance in the future. If we were able to reconcile our resource and population issue, then we may buy some time to sort out some of these chronic pains we experience as a species. We seem to have intelligence and if applied as Dorothy has pointed out, there's no reason to think we can't become something more than cosmic MURDEROUS NEIGHBOURS! I'll go with education as the key to our survival. If we stay on this path of greed and consumption much longer the outcome is clear. It will be the remnants of our societies that will be left to carry the torch. My guess is that they will resemble more the noble savage than the swinging bachelor from Manhattan.

Left, right, centre political views seem pointless in the context of sustainability. The laws of nature will be applied in this case, and the genepool will continue unabated barely noticing the exploding sun just before all traces of life are wiped clean from the ledger 8 billion years from now. The problem known as the human condition is our greatest challenge. Not can we build an indoor ski resort in Dubai. An extreme case of more money than brains. The biggest challenge of all is how do we educate as Dorothy proposes.
We send our children to school for 12 + years and when they're done they can't grow their own food. "The world's got a problem and there ain't no cure." (You know when you hear a song on the radio and it sticks with you...)
nightbloam, G West, Dorothy & Coyote
Good stuff everyone! Maybe we can pull this one out of the fire!

NEW ORDER right around the corner...

try reading YES MASTER...the article about CHINESE ASPIRATIONS and what the wests OPPORTUNISTS are doing to ACCOMODATE their wants/desires

the article is on this site.

you might realize we are headed for EXTINCTION regardless of how ...YOU TEACH YOUR CHILDREN...

CAUSE WE ARE OUTNUMBERED...get comfortable...times up...NEXT RACE ??? NEXT SPECIES ???

UNDERSTANDME:

I don't. Understand you. Just exactly what is it you'r advocating, apart from everyone else being an idiot? Did you know that capital letters in e-mails and posts are equivalent to shouting? you sound to me like very scared fellow, try to get some help to get a grip.

This really is on topic, if you think about it. The Canadian Women's Hockey Team has just won an Olympic Gold Medal, again. And the pundits are saying that they should take a year off and let the rest of the world catch up. They are saying the Canadians are just "too good" and that they must get off the playing fields for a while.

There's something innately sick about that notion. As the Captain of the Women's team said later, "I've never heard of anyone complaining that any other team is too good. Or that they should stop playing."

On a world stage, how is it possible that anybody could come up with such an outlandish, racist idea ... that a Canadian team is too good and must therefore stop playing? How is it that nobody protested?

HEY DORTHTY !

click your heels together and grab toto...

CAUSE I THINK YOU BELONG IN YOUR FANTASY LAND !!!

i saw WINTER SOLDIERS in hawaii...just before going to viet nam...it was used as an INDOCTRINATION film...for FOREIGN SOLDIERS recruited for SERVICE and TRAINING...

we don't want these people in our military...we were told...and we were told to ...weed them out! WHICH WAS EASIER SAID THAN DONE...CAUSE THEY HAD THE DRAFT GOING FULL TILT TO FEED THE WAR MACHINE IN VIET NAM.

as an explosives specialist that specialized in BOOBY TRAPS....I CAN TELL YOU I DON'T SCARE EASY...as RANGER...AS A PARATROOPER...AS A MERCENARY IN AFRICA FOR OVER A DECADE...

you have some serious READING COMPREHENSION problems....

CAPITAL LETTERS SCREAMING AT YOU !!! SEE A SHRINK !!! that i don't follow your rules makes me less than you...shows your true intellectual status...and you can't count as high as my IQ

SO CLICK THOSE HEELS TOGETHER!!!LIVE YOUR FANTASY TO THE N'th...

UNDERSTANDME:

I must apologize for offending your sensibilities. Whether you are more or less than me is not for any of us to know, the great hare in the sky must decide that, if it ever becomes relevant.

Thnak you listing your credentials. It makes me nervous that you do these jobs and don't scare easily. I know a fellow who has a similar background to yours, and he is darn near paranoid about his personal space.

I was trying to ask you to stay focused, and I asked you, what it is that you think people ought to do. There is no point to saying anything, unless it is instructional, gives people ideas on how to go forward. As a military man, I am sure you understand the idea of expressing yourself in operational terms, and that is, what I was asking for.

If you have a message to me about the direction I could take to try to avert disaster for everybody, i would like to hear it. If you just want to go on yelling, that I am a miserable dustmite, who doesn't see the vacuum cleaner coming for me, that is not new, and I consciously live my life in defiance of that nihilistic outlook. If you nevertheless can't keep it in, I will claim you are whistling in the dark, and, your erstwhile courageous acts notwithstanding, may need help. Did I say 'a shrink'? I consider many other possibilities more potentially helpful.

Don't sweat it Dorothy. There will always be vitriol our there. I don't think you live in a fantasy world at all. Keep writing.

Nightbloom:

Thank you so much for your kind words.

HET DOTTY!!!!!!!!!!!

your'e gonna make a great writer some day...you got the knack for expressing vacuous thought and presenting it so those barely capable of reading, might understand !

your sychophant puppy...doesn't know the difference between VITRIOL and REALISM!

SHOWS YA GOT A READY MADE MARKET ON THESE PAGES...AND FROM THE POSTS I HAVE READ...THESE PAGES WILL GO ON FOR A LONG TIME...CAUSE THE MAJORITY OF POSTERS HAVE GOT NOTHING TO DO...

they are true NIHLISTS.....whining...cause they
see the ABYSS...and are to stupid to MOVE !

THESE POSTINGS FOR ME ARE NOTHING MORE THAN WORSHIPPING AT THE TOWER OF BABEL...

BAITING PSUEDO INTELLECTUALS AND GETTING A GIGGLE AT THE HOLIER THAN THOU...

when i walked the halls of universities...or the rice paddies of viet nam...the jungles of africa,the one thing i found common was...people are FOLLOWERS...and they will follow ANYONE...that is percieved to be the least bit smarter/intelligent ...than they are.

enter a half assed post on these pages...and the SYCHOPHANTS FLOCK TO YOU....

like i said you should be on these pages...forever...with your verbal diarhea !!!

...wonder why they call them jar-heads?

wonder why they call them jar-heads ?

same reason jar-heads call you who don't serve...gutless wonders...the SILENT MAJORITY...
those who want us to die for their right to buy another JAPANESE CAR.........OR BIGSCREEN TELEVISION........

the bitchers ...the whiners.....who drive around polluting and desecrating this earth...as much as any military could do....

the CONSUMER driven by GREED to do anything to ACCOMODATE THEIR WANTS AND DESIRES....

sell off your world...I CAN PROTECT MINE!!!and when you look over the fence and see my GARDEN...DON'T FORGET WHAT YOU ARE UP AGAINST !

ciao

Oh, good grief.

Maybe you've got something to say underneath all that, Understandme, but...

You either are who/what you say you are, in which case you need to speak to your pharmacist about dosage issues.

Or you're a 12 year old boy who needs to lock himself in the bathroom for some self-gratifying alone-time.

Either way, you'll feel a lot better afterwards. Come back & let us know how it goes.

typical rebuttal of a mental WEAKLING...and being a mental weakling your physical strength follows suit...

if i was a 12 year old ...i wouldn't know lt.calley was the scapegoat for mai lei...and i wouldn't be sitting here with heart damage from chewing on C4 to make booby traps and cut pilots out of downed jets in enemy territory..

in other words ...i have lived...you ??? probably sucking on a beer bought by your welfare cheque..

and....i get my money providing SECURITY FOR THE RICH...so i know none here will ever pay for my services...

OK Rambo, time for your medication.

OK ...you roll it up !

i'm busy right now...

i got too many chihuauas nippin at my heels...

THINK I YANKED TOO MANY CHAINS TODAY !!!

Chewing on C4? Hell the only time C4 gets hard to mould is when it’s –15 or colder. I preferred DM12, more bang for the buck than C4. (25% more bang per ounce)

Pray tell why you would chew on C4? At least DM12 looks like Maple fudge

chewing C4 gives it a MALLEBILITY enhanced by your SPITTLE...something a run of the mill explosives specialist would know nothing about..
he has no need for DELICACY...IT ALSO ENHANCES THE ELECTRICAL CONTINUITY....SO IT GOES BANG !

EVERY TIME !

and time frame is 1972/74

END OF LESSON...

Curious how many books on Japanese history written by Japanese historians people here have read. Let me guess. Zero. As usual.

And... chewing C4? What the hell... What's next? Medics claiming to have chewed on sterile bandages to make them more sterile?

Btw Understandme... Team Canada (men's team) got smoked, big time. HAHA!