If only Warmists would bother to get their facts straight

There is absolutely no reason to restrict the use of oil, gas or coal. The influence of CO2 on temperature is limited:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/03/08/the-logarithmic-effect-of-carbon-dioxide/

And the Russians who have studied their portion of the Arctic say warming/cooling is cyclical....and they have the data to prove it.
"In the Russian northern port in the town of Murmansk, the Marine Biological Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences monitors life in and around the Barents Sea.

The institute has amassed an impressive database concerning temperature and salinity of the sea over the course of the 20th century. Referring to the statistics, biologist Pavel Makarevich says there are clear cycles during which both temperature and salinity rise and fall. These cycles, he says, are related to solar activity.

Murmansk harborBildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Murmansk is Russia's gateway to the Arctic waters

"In my opinion and that of our institute, the problems connected to the current stage of warming are being exaggerated," he says. "What we are dealing with is not a global warming of the atmosphere or of the oceans."

Makarevich expects a normalization of Arctic temperatures in the coming years. This view appears to have the support of a growing number of Russian scientists. Some even predict a temporary cooling of temperatures towards the middle of this century, a phenomenon known as a "Little Ice Age."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4921542,00.html

Byers needs to get an education. May I suggest he watch:
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2010/02/dr-richard-lindzens-talk-at-fermilab.html

The real threat to us is not Arctic melting, but disinfo agents pushing us to economic collapse.

Moped (remember those whiny 49cc scooters!)

``The real threat to us is not Arctic melting, but disinfo agents pushing us to economic collapse``

Actually it is the profiteers who are bringing about the economic collapse!

The Profiteers trade carbon credits

Is there any end to how deep Goldman's claws dig into America? Obviously not.

Via Investor's Business Daily, Al Gore's real objective exposed - should we be all that surprised to find this too reeks of Goldman? Nah:

Last Friday, Gore was the star witness at the hearings on cap-and- trade legislation before the House Energy and Commerce Committee. Blackburn asked Gore about Kleiner-Perkins, noting that at last count they "have invested about a billion dollars invested in 40 companies that are going to benefit from cap-and-trade legislation that we are discussing here today."

Blackburn then asked the $100 million question: "Is that something that you are going to personally benefit from?" Gore gave the stock answer that "the transition to a green economy is good for our economy and good for all of us, and I have invested in it but every penny that I have made I have put right into a nonprofit, the Alliance for Climate Protection, to spread awareness of why we have to take on this challenge."

It's a scheme that will make traders of this new commodity rich and Bernie Madoff look like a pickpocket. The other founder is former Goldman Sachs partner David Blood. [my emphasis]

As Stephen Milloy, author of "Green Hell," points out, Goldman Sachs is lobbying for climate change legislation and is part owner of the Chicago Climate Exchange, where carbon credits from cap and trade would be traded.
http://www.goldmansachs666.com/2009/05/al-gores-carbon-trading-scam-reeks-of.html

http://www2.goldmansachs.com/services/advising/environmental-markets/business-initiatives/trading-and-cap-markets.html

Mopled Ol' Sport........

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt about using all the oil we want to, without changing the global balance. But without oil, we wouldn't be able to release the toxins that we do into the soil, water and air. Or are you going to deny that as well?

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/obesity-threatens-national-security-294187.html
...child obesity has become so serious in this country that military leaders are viewing the epidemic as a potential threat to our national security.
Obesity, it turns out, is the No. 1 reason why applicants fail to qualify for military service, and it is posing serious health problems within the services.

http://www.worldfoodprize.org/assets/YouthInstitute/05proceedings/GilbertHighSchool.pdf
The American way of life has been subject to scrutiny over the past few years. Americans have earned the reputation of working far too many stressful hours, not getting sufficient exercise, and indulging in diets rich in all the things that should not be eaten. This “on the go” lifestyle has created numerous health problems that the American population faces today, the most prevalent of which are obesity and malnutrition.
http://www.timescolonist.com/health/Many+wired+brain/2651646/story.html
http://www.fao.org/FOCUS/E/obesity/obes1.htm
Obesity often masks underlying deficiencies in vitamins and minerals
http://www.physicalnutrition.net/soil-mineral-depletion.htm
There was a time when simply eating a healthy diet and avoiding all anti-nutrients ensured that we got all the minerals needed to stay healthy - research today shows that this may no longer be the case as the nutrient content of our food is on the decline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pica_(disorder)
The scant research that has been done on the causes of pica suggests that the disorder is caused by mineral deficiency in many cases, typically iron deficiency which is sometimes a result of celiac disease. Often the substance eaten by someone with pica contains the mineral in which that individual is deficient. More recently, cases of pica have been tied to the obsessive–compulsive spectrum, and there is a move to consider OCD in the etiology of pica
http://sigarra.up.pt/fcnaup/publs_web.show_publ_file?p_id=4384
Recent evidence suggests that body chemistry imbalance can cause energy deficiency which consequently leads to weight gain/central fat. Heavy metals may play a role in causing obesity by displacing vital minerals such as zinc and copper, which in turn may affect energy production, carbohydrate tolerance, and other aspects of physiology.

Conclusion:
the security of the United States is being compromised by depleted soils and a lack of proper fertilizers. It is also being compomised by the release of heavy metal waste into the air, soil, and water supplies.

So what does the US military intend to do about this?

It was interesting at the

It was interesting at the time that the Holocaust deniers haven't raised their heads for about 10 years after the war.

Now we have the climate change deniers, starting with the "prestigious economic think tanks", when the evidence is all around us.

Mopled, are you a city kid, and have you ever left it to see what is going on in real life ?

You see, money, like all religions, is an imaginary concept, worth whatever to people who believe it it's power, but nature is real and it always punishes those who break its rules.

Ed Deak.

I do agree that carbon trading is a scam,

As does not affect actual total emissions being generated; just where they are being generated on spaceship Earth!

Irrelevance

Whether carbon trading is a scam and whether Al Gore is a scammer are both irrelevant points. They say nothing about whether the globe is on a warming trend and whether that trend is caused by humans.

The bottom line, though, is that countries and corporations vote with their wallets. Nobody paid much attention to the arctic until some bright light realized that a thawing arctic will bring great economic opportunity. The fact that so much attention is being paid to the arctic is powerful evidence of the widespread belief at the highest levels that the warming will continue. If the Russians really believed that another little ice age was imminent, they wouldn't be in so much of a hurry to get in a big battle over the arctic.

Leaked UN Documents Reveal Plan For “Green World Order” By 2012

It is TOTALITARIAN and it is being run by the same criminals that planned and executed the debt crisis.

"Global Research, March 3, 2010

Leaked policy documents reveal that the United Nations plans to create a “green world order” by 2012 which will be enforced by a structure of global governance and funded by a gargantuan $45 trillion transfer of wealth from richer countries, as the globalists’ insidious plan to centralize power, crush sovereignty while devastating the economy is exposed once again.

As we warned at the time, the failure of Copenhagen in December did not spell the end of the global warming heist, but merely a roadblock in the UN’s agenda to create a world government funded by taxes paid by you on the very substance you exhale – carbon dioxide.

Using the justification of the vehemently debunked hoax that carbon dioxide is a deadly threat to the planet, the UN is already working to resurrect the failed Copenhagen agreement, with a series of new Copenhagen process negotiations set to take place in April, May and June."

Then it is announced that the IMF
proposes a climate change fund

"The head of the International Monetary Fund says countries should adopt a quota system to raise money needed to adapt to climate change"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/08/imf-climate-change
or
International Monetary Fund Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn takes part in a panel discussion at the University of Nairobi in Nairobi, Kenya, Monday, March 8, 2010. Strauss-Kahn proposed a plan for the world's governments to pool together to raise money needed to adapt to climate change, a rare step for an organization that normally does not develop environmental policies. (AP Photo/Khalil Senosi) (Khalil Senosi, AP / March 8, 2010)
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/sns-ap-af-imf-climate-change,0,2138875.story

The IMF has always been such a humanitarian organization, so I guess it doesn't matter that they are doing the collecting for the World Bank to lend out to the Third World....AT INTEREST.

It's another BANKSTER SCAM

Will you all please get your heads out?

Here we go again: mopled Through the Looking Glass

mopled, most of us who post here on a regular basis are quite aware of the serious challenge you face with cognitive dissonance when it comes to issues of the environment, global warming, and the depletion of planetary resources. And yes, it's a very difficult thing to be faced with the fact that something one likes to do does in fact lead to major suffering and potential eventual decline and death for much of the planet and those of us who sail with her.

We are also aware of your Crazy Glue-like adherence to woowoo, disinformation, empty rhetoric, and the propoganda issuing from parties with big stakes in big oil.

Nonetheless, if you don't pull your head out soon you are going to suffocate on the effluent and the funes.

Ha, ha, ha ...

"funes" should, of course, be fumes.

"woo woo" information?

Not one of the references given was "woo woo",so Jon Greg, your reply was an Ad hominem compounded by ignorance.

Global Research is one of the most respected sites for a scholarly evaluation of the latest news.

"The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) is an independent research organization and media group of writers, scholars, journalists and activists.

The CRG is based in Montreal. It is a registered non profit organization in the province of Quebec, Canada.

In addition to the Global Research website, the Centre is involved in book publishing, support to humanitarian projects as well as educational outreach activities including the organization of public conferences and lectures. The Centre also acts as a think tank on crucial economic and geopolitical issues.

The Global Research webpage at www.globalresearch.ca publishes news articles, commentary, background research and analysis on a broad range of issues, focussing on social, economic, strategic and environmental processes."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=section&sectionName=about

I suggest you widen your horizons John Greg.

Arctic Sovereignty and Security

... begins with our credible post-carbon future.

'Cos it's already been done:
http://tinyurl.com/DanishSolutions

Open Minds

Beyond the John-Bircher paranoiacs. beyond the denialist doctors of incredulity, beyond the fossil fuel PR dupes ...

lies a valuable lesson in reality :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFO6ZhUW38w&feature=related

“An open mind, like an open window, needs a screen to keep the bugs out”
Anon

Only in places where the wind never stops

Wind has to have a back up, either coal or natural gas plants kept on idle, in areas where the wind is not constant and that's most of the world. So that pie in the sky article offered by ORT was about a very special niche market.

"Thanks to new natural gas extraction technology, the U.S. is now awash in natural gas for electricity production, and is likely to remain so for decades. Natural gas is much less expensive and much more reliable than wind, blowing wind out of the running.

Not that wind, which can be economic in niche applications, ever was in the running as a major source of economically generated power. Wind power in North America costs several times as much as power produced from conventional sources. Its sole competitive advantage came from climate change fears that presaged cap and trade legislation in the U.S., which was expected to sideline coal and other CO2-intensive ways of producing power. That cap and trade legislation is now gone gone gone — after Copenhagen’s failure, the Climategate emails, and President Obama’s loss of grace, there is approximately zero chance that it will now come to pass. Meaning that meaningful U.S. curbs on CO2 are no longer in the offing.

Meaning that Canadian curbs on CO2 — seen as inevitable if we were to avoid trade sanctions following the U.S. legislation — are also dead. Now Canada has no trade sanctions to avoid, and no economic rationale to avoid CO2 emissions by switching to wind. So, too, among America’s other trading partners. Meaning that wind, as a large-scale commercial technology, is dead dead dead, even if its obituary has not made it to the official press."
http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2010/01/23/lawrence-solomon-winds-of-change.aspx

Pricing Carbon

Carbon Tax? Cap and Trade? Tradable Energy Quotas?

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3995

Why should our ability to use energy be rationed on the basis

of fraudulent science which didn't prove humans could cause the climate to change even before we found out they faked the temperature history and evidence.

Why are people so willing to swallow the kool-aid?

From the You Just Can’t Make This Stuff Up Department
http://biggovernment.com/jpollak/2010/03/09/former-apartheid-spy-appointed-to-head-un-climate-change-effort/

Reports of Death

... greatly exagerated :
http://tinyurl.com/CapAndTradeNotYetDead

After all, it worked for acid rain:
http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=1085

And the economy survived.

Friends of Kool-Aid

Like Sarah Palin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDsDT01tMC0

Michelle Bachman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wX1UnAtynU

Sovereignty Starts at Home

Mr Minority's militarism misses the mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ced0K8pqAHE

Global Research will probably publish anything

Their articles ARE NOT subject to peer reveiw and there is no way the work they publish can be classed as scholarly research....

Mopled Ol' Sport........

That may be. Or it could be that the money people are simply taking advantage of the phenomena. That is how our entire society operates at present. If it didn't, we wouldn't have the present recession, nor any recession for that matter.

But it's here, and all the "evidence" you have presented could simply be propaganda put out by the so-called "banksters". Have you fallen for it, hook, line, and sinker?

Mopled Ol' Sport........

Or.....

As Elizabeth May noted, we WASTE 60% of the energy we produce. Recouping even 1/2 of that would more than compensate for turbine "downtime".

denier's names should be taken

our grandchildren will want to know

Give me a break with your demand for "peer-review" GW

Where do you get the nerve after it turned out the IPCC never met a screed from an environmental NGO they didn't try to substitute for the peer-reviewed literature.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/21/gaming-the-peer-review-system-ipcc-scientists-behaving-badly/

Energy EFFICIENCY is a no brainer, Ms May.

What has that to do with to do with restriction and taxation by a corrupt Bankster entity like the IMF?

The leaked documents from Copenhagen showed that the plan is to tax ALL COUNTRIES at 2% of GDP. The IMF is the tax collector. Then the World Bank with Robert Zoellich of Goldman Sachs as its head, will LEND the money out to the Third World...at interest, so they can buy "carbon saving technology", like nuclear plants.

So the people who created the financial crisis will be in charge of the slush fund to save the planet from an imaginary threat.

Nice going Warmists. You sure can pick'em.

Ed

But it first punishes those with the least imaginary wealth, usually. Funny how that works. Gee you might be onto something.

You Can Pick Your Nose

and you can pick your friends:
http://tinyurl.com/FriendsOfWatts

- but shouldn't pick your friend's nose.
Especially at 49cc.

An update to the weather record mish-mash

Boy you sure can pick them ORT, Smear by association with tobacco again.

The climate data was fiddled, we now know, by elimination of sites in Russia and Canada that were part of the original international record.

"Joseph D’Aleo, the first director of meteorology and co-founder of the Weather Channel, and Anthony Watts, a meteorologist and founder of SurfaceStations.org, are well-known and well-respected scientists. On Jan. 29, they released a startling study showing that starting in 1990, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) began systematically eliminating climate-measuring stations in cooler locations around the world. Eliminating stations that tended to record cooler temperatures drove up the average measured temperature. The stations eliminated were in higher latitudes and altitudes, inland areas away from the sea and more rural locations. The drop in the number of weather stations was dramatic, declining from more than 6,000 stations to fewer than 1,500."
http://climategate.tv/?tag=temperature-data

I just call them

As I see them.

Your much vaunted 'source' is not academic, not peer reviewed and not worth my time.

You keep on listening to the folks who started the weather channel - I get my weather from Claire Martin!

Cheers.

G West makes a good point about Peer Review

Now that it is coming under some scrutiny, given the number of 'gates that have been associated with it, it is becoming evidently clear that the latest IPCC report is about as peer-reviewed as Global Research.

IPCC Report: not worth my time.

My budgie likes it though. Prefers it over The Province in fact.

- I get my weather by looking out the window.

Mopled Ol' Sport........

YOU said that wind power won't work.

I said we waste 60% of our energy, and that wind power WOULD work in concert with energy efficiency.

Energy efficiency IS NOT a given. If it were, we'd be practicing it.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? or because you are losing this debate, your brain implodes?

And Dr. A:

No wonder you have such truncated views of life....

PEARL before swine

The Denialists wet-dream ; de-funding arctic science:
http://tinyurl.com/FactFreeHarper

Harper's ConBots mantra:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbBdGi1TOIc&feature=related
See No Data; Hear No Data; Process No Data

I said unless placed where the wind never stops,

wind needs the back-up of coal or gas. Coal and gas provide power at less than half the cost of wind. Since the "CO2 changes climate" scam is now discredited...what is the point of bothering with wind except in limited applications?

Here's more evidence of NASA/GISS fiddling with temperature records...this time in Northern India.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/03/09/himalayan-hijinks/#more-17196

Arctic research and the climate scam are mutually exclusive, since the climate scammers aren't interested in real data.

Real Arctic research would be a welcome change.

Tsk tsk tsk......

I said unless placed where the wind never stops,
wind needs the back-up of coal or gas

And I said that intermittent wind energy can be compensated for by addressing the efficiencies throughout our energy system. No coal, oil, or gas required.

Even if you are correct and anthropomorphic climate change isn't on, is that an excuse to waste the stuff - or to find other sources of energy, considering the hugh amounts of uncontested data showing the "collateral damage" burning the stuff causes? Or are you denying that as well?

RickW, Thanks for reading my post

and quoting me.

Real Arctic research would be a welcome change - Mopled

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=1298434&sponsor=

Here's REAL research. And here is what Harper thinks of it:
Arctic research centre scrambles to survive

Discrediting Oneself

- evidently :
http://www.desmogblog.com/common-sense-and-attack-ipcc

Perhaps evolution does reverse:
http://tinyurl.com/ReversionTo49cc

Blowing in the Wind

A part of our post-carbon future:

http://www.windatlas.ca/en/maps.php?field=E1&height=30&season=ANU

End of the World - increasingly they are saying, no thanks

US:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/126560/Americans-Global-Warming-Concerns-Continue-Drop.aspx?version

UK:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/23/british-public-belief-climate-poll

Opinions and Wishful Thinking

by 100% of all human beings alive right now on the planet, Earth, will count for exactly nothing as AGW progresses.

When I saw Mopled's posting in this thread, I began formulating a response, then decided there would be no point in pointing out to him the fallacies inherent in the deniers' arguments. But I did go to the website of Global Research on his recommendation.

Holy cow! If I wasn't paranoid before looking at the table of contents there, I certainly would be after trying to digest that ferment. It's no wonder Mopled and others (are you there, Rman?) operate on wishful thinking and subscribe to ideas of world domination by the banksters aided and abetted by politicians of all stripes, and slavery imposed on the rest of us dupes and simpletons. Too much Ayn Rand in their reading diet, I guess.

Holy cow!