The Hook

Fuel gruel

I don`t believe for a minute that they are sitting because of fuel.

Gordon Campbell bought 3 high maintenance show ponies that are pooped out after a few runs.
What we needed were three well built BC work horses,they might not be as pretty but they get the job done.

Yikes!

Yikes! The question which immediately pops into my mind is, if the vehicle/passenger capacities of the C class and the Coastal class are so similar, why the dramatic difference in displacements? (~10 000 vs. ~7 000 tonnes)

Das Boot!

Der Deutch Zitrones...............Kaput. Sounds like the fastferry fiasco all over doesn't it. Let's save the Queen of Sanich from the scrappers torch!

Hmmmmm...

Sounds like shades of the Spirit Class vessels in the early 1990's:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/11/20/209184.aspx

Another Spirit Class situation or another FastCat situation? Methinks the former.

Oh well time will tell.

David Hahn will have to have

David Hahn will have to have higher ticket prices on the new ships to cover the higher fuel consumption. Thats what he did to cover higher fuel costs in general with his fuel surcharges. Or he could turn them into different classes for the travelling public. You know, first(business) class for the newer ships, and second class for the old ones.

Anyone know what Hahn's performance bonus will be this year?

Such liberal patience Luke!

Well Luke, that was when the NDP were in and great news was made about any possible deficiencies. This is now and under the liberals any deficiency has to be colossal to even get mentioned in the media. $452 million plus the loss of BC worker's wages and tax benefits for the province and you can't find anybody that even knows about them still not being in service.

And you need more time to tell?

FastCats

I'm no marine engineer by any stretch, but it seems to me that when you consider the hype that was fomented by the corporate elite in this province, during the NDP government years, against the FastCat ferries, I get the feeling that BC taxpayers were duped by neo-con fiscal and anti-social policies. For instance, during the first sailings of the new FastCats, the government was severely criticised for using a vessel that created such a huge wash, affecting shore-based homes and dockage. This claim was never substantiated, however, the rhetoric was so deafening that the powers-that-be of the era, tucked their tails and fled. If anyone remembers, a deep-draught vessel, such as the old CPR Princess Elaine (the "night boat to Victoria), with her triple screws, would create a wash comparable to a mini-tsunami. The FastCat hulls were "catamaran" style vessels, thereby reducing the amount of displacement, and thereby reducing the production of wash, as well as reducing the fuel consumption. To compare maintenance procedures with each of the two types of ferries, one FastCat against the new Coastal (German) series, you have to know that vibration is not friendly to aluminium structures. Pre-stressed aluminium is the only way to go. The Coastal class is constructed of good old carbon steel, and yes, it withstands vibration quite well. In the long run, however, the ongoing maintenance of steel hulls, requiring chipping and re-painting, in my view, nullifies the advantage over the FastCats, with cosmetic maintenance reduced drastically, although stress inspections must be kept up to the max (consider the privatized road maintenance services, who do their own "in house" inspections, and recently have failed provincial safety guidelines, of their equipment!). Diesel-electric drives with jet thruster propulsion devices would have reduced the vibration factor to a minimum (no screw-depth problem, here, as the thrusters can be adjusted in transit). Another factor to consider, is that these FastCats are not a new product, nor do they require sea-going trials, to be acceptable. The U.S. military, have been using them for years to marshal heavy military equipment to wherever it is required, ditto with the Aussies. Ferries of this class are currently in use in the North Sea and Irish Sea. Our Gulf of Georgia is a duck pond compared to those bodies of water. Yes, these FastCats cost the taxpayers $450 millions, but the greater scandal is the Campbell liberal government spitefully selling off these vessels at a million bucks apiece…to teach us a lesson, I guess. If we had been patient with those FastCats, by now the bugs would have been worked out, we would now be enjoying a comfortable and low-cost ride to the Island. We’d also have a good shipbuilding industry here in our own backyard.

First, your article is

First, your article is factually incorrect: neither the Coastal Inspiration, Queen of Cowichan, nor Queen of Alberni run on the Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay run. Careless errors and spelling mistakes speak to the overall quality of reporting from the Tyee on this issue.

Second, one should point out that the new ships are significantly heavier than the C class vessels; the Coastal class displace 9600t while the C class only displace 5850t. This means that on route 2, the Renaissance burns 0.88 l/t per round trip, while the C class burn between 1.17 and 1.20 l/t. While this is an increase overall in fuel consumption, it is a decrease per tonne. Do not overlook that the vehicle capacity of these new ships will eventually increase, as the lower deck is designed for gallery expansion decks. In contrast, the C class vehicle capacity will not increase during its remaining lifetime.

Ships are not mass produced as if they are cars, you must allow for bugs to be worked out during the first few years of operation; one should look at the archives to find similar reactionary reporting on the Spirit class vessels during their shake down period.

bcrefugee...

I think that you hit the nail on the head:

Furthermore, the Super C class design also permits a substantial increase in commercial rig capacity as well as other over-height vehicles over the older C class vessels.

Another view

A few counterpoints to your statements DaveA

Wash WAS a problem. There were news reports showing the waves crashing on the beaches and damaging docks. They SLOWED the Cats down until they hit the open Straight b/c of this. Speed was supposed to be the reasons the Cats were built in the first place.

Steel vs aluminum - vibration doesn't factor in here. Corrosion does. Aluminum doesn't like salt and corrodes faster than steel over the long run. Higher maintenance costs in the end.

Deisel electric with jet drives? Now you're adding even more weight. They already were deisel coupled directly to jet drives without the need for electric generators and motors. Your idea would add tons more weight. The problem was that deisels were chosen to start with. The successful US, Aus, European catamarans you refer to all have Gas Turbine propulsion which is what the Engineers wanted for the Cats but that was overuled b/c that system was more costly to purchase, and costs were already climbing too quickly so they went the cheap route. That was the fatal error.
No amount of "working out the bugs" can get around that fact.

So I'll ask again - if these boats just need a bit of work to bring them up to snuff why have they been tied up to the docks for so many years and not a soul in sight interested in them at any price?

Thank you Grumpy

"I have been told by a BC Ferrys engineer that the FastCats final undoing was excessive fuel consumption because they were over weight."

This is exactly what I've been saying time and again, and always get shot down as "Your full of BS!"

The overweight problem was soley due to the powerplant choice. Gas Turbines are half the weight of Deisels and can run at full power continuously if need be. The high speed deisels installed on the Cats were overstressed to maintain their design speed, which led to excessive fuel consumption and poor reliability.

And the decision to go with deisels came straight from the Office of the Premier

Hummers more fuel efficient?

I have learned something here tonight. It may be that we should all go out and buy Hummers. That would be because they may be more fuel efficient than Smart Cars. That is if you measure on the basis of fuel consumed per kg of vehicle weight.

Is this argument a bit much?

Yes and no WCK

A better way to look at it would be to measure the amount of PAYLOAD carried to fuel consumed.
That will give you the answer to which is more fuel efficient.
Which in this case would probably still favour the Smart Car if all you are carrying is people.
But if you are carrying cargo....

Weight Schmeight

Fact is

"While the Coastal Renaissance carries 370 vehicles and 1,600 people, each of the Queens carries 362 vehicles and 1,500 people. "

As WetCoastKid points out, that's a lot of extra weight to carry pretty much the same number of cars and passengers.

And so the Campbell Ferries need 180,000 more litres of fuel per day than the Queen of Oak Bay to carry the same load.

Brilliant move Gord.

Brilliant math Frank

"And so the Campbell Ferries need 180,000 more litres of fuel per day than the Queen of Oak Bay to carry the same load."

180,000 litres MORE PER DAY per ferry.

Using basic math with the figures provided above (8400 per round trip) and assuming 4 round trips per day I came up with roughly 67000 litres a day TOTAL for the Renaissance.
Do I have to go back to school, or you :)

Actually I do have to go back to school!

I blew it too. I multilplied by 8, not 4 as is correct.
So the correct figure is half what I said - 34000 litres per day.

Apples

This is true, but I think that the capacity numbers are misleading, at least in the short term. As we know, the vehicle capacity has significant room to grow, without major structural modifications to the ship. Additionally, the unit of measure is important - what exactly constitutes a 'car', is it a Hummer, as suggested above? Or perhaps a compact car. A more reasonable basis of comparison between the two ships might be be lane metres, then you would actually know exactly how much deck space each of the two classes of ships have.

As far as passenger capacity is concerned, if you look at the gross tonnage (the total internal volume of the ship) it is enormous. In comparison to the C class, the Coastal is simply much larger. Why then, is the passenger capacity so similar to the C class vessels when the C class only has a single, reasonably sized, passenger deck? Perhaps staffing levels set an upper limit on the capacity, perhaps passenger volume projections showed that 1650 passengers was more than sufficient, which would mean that the excess passenger areas could be filled more... services?

Or perhaps the most revenue (or better yet, profit) generated per unit of fuel consumed.

The concern-trolls are out trashing these boats without the necessary data to make any kind of reasonable comparison. Until we see the bottom line, we can't really claim to know that these boats are 'lemons'.

Oranges

The real test is the daily cost of operation. When fuel costs rise next year, as they will, and ridership drops, as it did this year, these boats will be tied up as fuel inefficient.

The wrong design, for the wrong time - just like the FastCats!

Fact is

At only 4 round trips per day the new German ferry will need almost 3 million litres of fuel more per year than the Queen of Oak Bay to move pretty much the same number of passengers.

Since there's 3 of them it will cost us just over 8 million litres of fuel per year more.

How many tonnes of CO2 is that? I thought Gord was against CO2 emissions? Will he carbon tax the ferries heavily until they buy something more economical to run?

But as bcrefugess points out we have more room on the German boats for shops selling souvenirs and knick-knacks to tourists. I guess that's worth the extra costs and emissions.

One item not factored in..................

......is passenger growth or lack of. If ridership drops (as tourism numbers drop), fewer people will take a ferry. When road transport costs increase, fewer trucks will be taking the ferry. This bodes ill for the 'Deutch Zitrones' and their high fuel consumption.

What may happen is fewer round trips offered, to ensure full loadings, which will in turn lead to mandatory reservations.

I think the 'Zitrones' are just part of a plan to reduce sailings to fewer and more profitable sailings which in turn lead to the privatization of the profitable ferry runs, leaving the taxpayers with the unprofitable island services.

There is a reason that these boats were designed thus and the reason is privatization.

Duke Point

BC Refugee is right that the Coastal Inspiration was used between Tsawwassen and Duke Point, not Swartz Bay. Thank you for the catch.