The Hook

More mythology by the public union GHG lovers

This article just repeats the mythology put out by the anti-green public unions. Facts are:

Independent Power Producers pay three to five times more social benefits to government than BC Hydro does.

Private power IPPs pay $20 per MWh in taxes, water license rental fees, and community benefits to the government. About half of that is paid to the local government as property tax (while BC Hydro pays no local property taxes for 20 billion dollars of assets that it owns).

BC Hydro, on the other hand, pays only $4 per MWh as dividend, water license fees, and taxes to the government (2008) while most of that power is produced by dams that have permanently altered the Columbia River and Peace River basins with cumulative environmental impacts. In fiscal 2009 and now in fiscal 2010, BC Hydro paid no dividends to the government. To meet our current energy shortage, BC Hydro wants to build yet another dam (Site C) at 3 times the cost per MW, compared to low-cost low-impact private run-of-the-river technology.

A small 10 MW run of river IPP plant pays about $1,400,000 a year to various levels of government, most of it to the local government. On the other hand, BC Hydro pays only $420,000 in water rental and dividends for the same amount of power to the Province, including a negligible ($2,000) “grant-in-lieu” to the local government.

Private IPPs generate green, renewable and clean power at $50 to $90 a MWh. According to BC Hydro, the average price paid by BC Hydro to IPPs is $65 a MWh. This compares to $80 a MWh that BC consumers pay. BC Hydro on the other hand is a very high cost producer - $110 a MWh, from its own Aberfeldie run-of-the-river project that it has just completed. The cost of production at the proposed Site C mega-dam on the Peace River will be about $160 a MWh.

questions

#1 There are only 35 IPP plants over 2 MW in BC. There are 12,000 major streams and 280,000 minor streams in BC.

#5 BC Hydro in their report says they pay $65 a MWh on the average to IPPs.

BC Hydro's own projects cost them $110 to $160 a MWh to produce green and renewable energy.

#1 BC Hydro had 91 signed

#1 BC Hydro had 91 signed EPAs. It just accepted 19 more, and is considering even more.

#5 That's true, because it includes the older, less expensive contracts. New IPP contracts, I understand, are for $80-$120/MWh.

If BC Hydro hired the same private contractors to build a public project, wouldn't it cost the same?

And, once it's paid off, BC Hydro then has a cheap source of electricity.

BC Hydro has provided $billions in benefits to BC over the years.

question

For poster GreenEnergy...

What's your real name - anyone posting adverts like that one ought to be willing to disclose who they are and who they represent.

Otherwise, why would anyone pay a moment's attention.

BC Hydro is theoretically

BC Hydro is theoretically broke. When it has to purchase power generated by the independent power producers at above retail prices and then resell power onto the North American power grid is just plain stupid. Also there a myth propegated by the liars in Victoria about our shortages in electricity. They never tell us and of course the mass-media doesn't tell us either, that we have access to any surplus power under the Columbia Power Treaty. But no, they sell that power on the open market and then we then purchase power at a higher price at peak times. When it comes time to rebuild our power grid systems in North America we should have it built east to west instead of north to south, then we can take advantage of the different time zones for peak consumption times.

Catch 22

Perhaps Melissa Davis can provide us with the magic formula to convince everyone to practice conservation.

While it is true that conservation is cheaper than building new sources of electricity, the following are also facts.

Due to restrictions placed on BC Hydro during the 90's they were not able to implement market electricity rates charged to consumers.

BC now enjoys the lowest electricity rates of any major region in North America. BC also has the sorrowful distinction of being the highest per capita users of electricity. Only a blind person could miss the correlation.

It also meant that BC Hydro could not afford to implement the necessary upgrades to the generation, transmission and distribution system required to meet both the current and future needs of British Columbia.

Factor this

Perhaps Van Isle should take a course in simple economics. BC Hydro was forced to import from outside the province 12% more than it normally does in fiscal 2009 because of low water levels in it's own dams at an extremely high cost. Electricity on the spot market could be $200/megawatt or more, depending on the time of year. For the record, transmission lines do run east-west. How does he think we can import electricity from Alberta? We also import electricity from Washington State, and this is generated by private power companies. In other words, if we continue to import expensive electricity from other provinces and states to meet our growing needs, BC Hydro will go broke.

G West ad hominem

Stick to the content G West - and please cut the ad hominem.

Obviously you can't defend the mythology and lies, so now you want to attack the commenter!

Just shows how little a case the anti-greens and the public unions have.

Did you know wire cutters get paid $280,000 a year at BC Hydro from our electricity bills? And Hydro pays no benefits to the government? Do a google on Vancouver Sun and public employee salaries.

High - wrong again

Hugh - you are wrong.

#1
68% of all EPAs signed are attrition. This is what BC Hydro has said. They will never happen, and are abandoned. These EPAs are coal and hydro that never received their environmental permits.

So it is not 91 - count again - and be factual instead.

#5
The attrition rate is 2/3 of EPAs. The newer contracts are $100 according to BC Hydro.

This is way less than $160 for the environmental disaster Site C and less than $110 for Aberfeldie.

In fact Aberfeldie cost overruns now brings it up to $120.

Ashlu Creek IPP is only $55 for 40 years. Half of the cost of BC Hydro. Now go figure ....

GreenEnergy

"This is way less than $160 for the environmental disaster Site C "

You keep calling BC Hydro an environmental disaster yet you focus your arguments on the taxes IPPs pay (do you count political donations too?) rather than the negative effects on the environment mentioned in the article.

To quote you, you should "Stick to the content"

GreenEnergy

Regarding Ashlu Creek you're quoting an industry website. Big surprise.

Another website, watershedsentinel, has this to say about Ashlu Creek

"Nowhere have local aspirations and corporate pre­sumption collided in such acrimony as they have with Led­cor and its Ashlu Creek Green Power Project. The Ashlu joins the Squamish River about 35 km north of Squamish. It is immensely popular with whitewater kayakers, backroad adventurers, off-road hikers and cross-country skiers, not to mention people who live in the area who simply value it as it is - a non-industrialized wild stream. There also re­mains a concern about the area's importance and vulner­ability as grizzly habitat.

Responding to these values, the SLRD denied a rezon­ing application by Ledcor for the Ashlu project in Janu­ary 2005. The application was resubmitted by Ledcor in December. The board decided to defer a decision pending completion of a regional energy/IPP strategy facilitated by the provincial government.

After that, the axe fell. More correctly, the provincial government brought the axe down on the SLRD and on all local governments in BC, removing their ability to control energy projects by zoning on Crown land within their ju­risdiction."

Modred

"BC now enjoys the lowest electricity rates of any major region in North America."

Really? Are you counting all the recent and planned rate increases over the last 10 years and the next 5?

GreenEnergy

"68% of all EPAs signed are attrition. This is what BC Hydro has said. They will never happen, and are abandoned."

Never is a long time. Has the government placed a limit on how many rivers in BC will not be wrecked by IPP works? If so, please provide a link.

@GreenEnergy

I seem to recall another commenter at the Tyee a while ago telling the same lies you're telling now... Ah yes, it was you when you were "HydroGreen"

Yeah, I think that this is probably bullsh*t.

Highly misleading. The "average price paid by BC Hydro to IPPs" includes purchases from Rio Tinto Alcan and Island Cogen. In fact energy from these two sources " currently constitutes the bulk of the energy currently supplied to BC Hydro by IPPs ". Island Cogen is of course a natural gas power plant, and thus it cannot really be considered s source of “green, renewable and clean power”.

You're lying again, and it's not a very effective lie since these facts are easily checked. What does BC Hydro say about Aberfeldie vs. 2006 Call For Power?

Here, page 15. The newer ones are even more expensive.

Oh yeah, how about a source for the production cost of Site C? Because I’m pretty sure you’re lying about that one too.

Frank - you dont have facts

Frank: "Regarding Ashlu Creek you're quoting an industry website. Big surprise."

Are you saying Ashlu website is lying (like Citizens for Public Power does?). Do you have proof of that? What is the price that you have, and please give source. Of course you can't. You don't have the facts - just mythology and ideology.

Frank: "Another website, watershedsentinel, has this to say about Ashlu Creek"

Changing the subject ey? You couldn't refute the FACT that Ashlu receives $55 a MWh so now pollute the discussion with irrelevent stuff.

BC IPP's

I realize Mr. Langille may be just starting his reporting career, but I would like to offer him some kindly advice from a journalist with 20 years of experience. A story must be fair and balanced, and in the case of the debate over power in BC, should include input from environmentalists, the industry and possibly government. More research would have provided a plethora of experts in this field willing to share their knowledge. Warren Brazier's comments were well said, however I did not hear from IPPBC,any of the dozens of IPP's that operate in this province, or impartial advocates from the academic world. Perpetuating the myths of a handful of environmentalists opposed to run-of-river projects, contrary to the facts, does journalism, and all British Columbians, a disservice.
Mike Chisholm, Editor, PowerlineBC.net

GreenEnergy

"Of course you can't. You don't have the facts - just mythology and ideology."

I'm using the same sources you are. Websites. If mine are swayed by myths and ideology then so are yours. Isn't that interesting how that works?

Therefore, I can quote your words back to you, you have no facts, you're nothing but a small-time shill spouting myths, ideology and innuendo.

Perhaps some will buy the BS you're selling but most will see it for what it is.

You're a liar.

PowerlineBC

"A story must be fair and balanced"

When did you move to BC? I guess you're not familiar with the ex-Fraser Institute people than run the Vancouver Sun and Province.

The Tyee provides balance.

GreenEnergy

Nothing ad hominem about asking someone who they're batting for.

Your post was an advertisement for the IPP.

I've been around the Tyee for a while and I happened to recall the last time someone showed up here doing the same thing - turned out a little investigation proved they had a big financial stake in ROR power.

I just thought we could save time if you posted your bona fides right off the top.

That's not ad hominem - it's what I call open and transparent dialogue.

I'll put my cards on the table:
I know from BC Hydro's own figures that BC produces more than enough power right now to meet all our needs. I also know, again from BC Hydro's figures that the implementation of conservation measures are more than adequate to ensure that we'll still be producing enough power to meet our needs in 2020.

In my view, there is absolutely no good reason to permit private developers to create more power sources which they will then sell to hydro to profit their shareholders.

The shareholders of BC Hydro are the PEOPLE OF BC and I don't want YOU or the people you seem to represent to make an unnecessary profit off me and my neighbours or something we have to have simply to satisfy some foreign owners and, in the process, destroy what little beauty this province has left.

Thanks jimmy

touché

Cronies energy really

Campbell's cronies are setting up the taxpayer or rate payer to pay for their bloated, undeserving salaries and pay for the new directorships when the Liberal pirates abandon the the taxpayers' ship BC!

@ G West

GreenEnergy is obviously a shill. He/she posted here and here and told pretty much the same lies (as "HydroGreen" instead of "GreenEnergy"). Oh, also here, here, and here, for example. IPPBC employee, perhaps? Involved with these guys, or some similar astroturf group? Who knows?

Fair and balanced

PowerlineBC says:
“I realize Mr. Langille may be just starting his reporting career, but I would like to offer him some kindly advice from a journalist with 20 years of experience. A story must be fair and balanced … “

I have to agree with Frank on this one.

PowerlineBC – What’s your view on The Vancouver Sun, Province, Global, CTV, CKNW – Fair and Balanced????

@ Frank

He's not really quoting anything. The numbers he gives are made up. He'll never quote anything, because he can't. He simply invents concrete-sounding figures, and argues as if they were real. Notice how he subtly calls the Ashlu Creek energy prices a “fact”, yet he never provided a source? Here:

If people demand evidence or reliable sources for those figures, he will ignore them.

Fair and Balanced...

Then let's add some more balance. Time to rehash the same old, same old.

1. Ashlu Creek micro hydro- August, 1996 - NDP premier Glen Clarks' IPP Review Panel listed Ashlu Creek as the highest-rated in terms of social and environmental impacts and tax/rental revenue to government.

2. BC Hydro's Aberfeldie micro hydro was the redevelopment of an existing RoR generating station with existing infrastructure in place.

3. NDP Premier Mike Harcourt heartily endorsed IPP's as a new industry for BC.

4. Around 50% of current BC IPP's were permitted under the NDP.

5. Fortis BC, a private BC utility, also owns several dams and generating facilitie.

6. Manitoba Hydro - under current NDP administration has entered into IPP contracts with the St. Leon and St. Joseph Wind Farms.

Aside from some of these reasonable and pragmatic decisions, a certain ideological strain continues to run amuck here on the Tyee.

dot Luke

You don't have to do BC Boy's work for him (blaming the NDP for everything) as he's already been around here today on other threads.

Luke's back!! Maybe you can

Luke's back!!
Maybe you can answer the question?

What’s your view on The Vancouver Sun, Province, Global, CTV, CKNW – Fair and Balanced????

And BTW,We haven't had the NDP in here for 10 years. That's old now.

dot Luke

How about a little fair and balanced for a poster who used to contribute a lot here at Tyee - someone who has too much pride to simply change his handle and return as if nothing happened?

You know who I mean - Rod Smelser.

And, despite the blue pencil, your post refreshed my memory - I know exactly who we're dealing with.

Curt

Its never old for dot Luke, if he could find a link claiming the NDP is the reason why dinosaurs were wiped out he'd post it.

@ jimmy

That last para is for you - thanks for the refresher....

Snake oil salesman..

No one believes the bullshit.

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2010/03/keith-baldreymichael-smythsean.html

Cheers

Paul Taylor,snake oil slaesman

The tide has turned, bute inlet,cancelled,Naikun,caput.

Even Gordoh knows his Green powerhouse plans are dead.

And then there is that California senate problem,Run of river isn`t green,they won`t buy it,oh,and Arnold Schwarzenegger isn`t running for Govenor of California,"He won`t be back"...

By the way,spot market power is $40 to $50 dollARS....The best forecasters are predicting $200 dollar power for 25 years.

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2009/12/haida-nation-meets-snake-oil-salesman.html

Cheers

Typo...

The best forecasters are predicting the electric rates won`t reach $200 for at least 25years...Electric power is trending downward,not up!

Oh by the way Green energy...

IPPs have donated $1 million dollars to the BC Liberals since 2003...

Cheers

Whiskey River

Now why would IPP's want to donate a million bucks to the Campbell Liberals?

For the same reason people trying to make a killing by wrecking the public's resources call it "green" I guess.

@ .Luke.

Well, you're back then, Luke Skywalker Luke Skywalker Redux Luke .Luke.

So what? The only important question is are IPP contracts as a whole good, not whether one bad deal is a better than the rest of the bad deals.
It’s interesting though that that was way back in 1996. It was 13 years before Ashlu was finally completed. Why was that?

Yes, existing infrastructure which had to be replaced. Replacing the existing infrastructure was point, and it costs money to remove it. Incidentally, the work on Aberfeldie was done by Western Versatile Construction Corporation. They built the Miller Creek Upper Mamquam, and Soo River IPP facilities, so the construction costs for Aberfeldie are no doubt similar.

Really? Where?

What do you mean by “permitted”? If you mean 50% of long-term EPAs were signed by BC Hydro while the NDP were in power then this is false. And not just a little false, but very, very false.

Again, so what? Is BC Hydro forced by the Provincial Government to sign long-term high-priced purchase agreements with Fortis? How much does energy from Fortis cost versus small hydro or wind-power IPPs? Is the power they produce firm?

GreenEnergy - Property Taxes

Although BC Hydro doesn't pay local property taxes for the 20 billion dollars of assets that it owns, it pays Grants-in-lieu for most of its assets.

BC Hydro pays School Taxes based on the property assessments for the current year.

The Grants-in-lieu of taxes are paid annually to Local Governments and regional districts based on the assessments and tax rates of the previous year.

Oh....and IPP's will enjoy the free use of the transmission infrastructure paid for by BC Hydro.

For the record

To Frank
The information regarding the low electricity rates enjoyed by BC ratepayers is from a chart put together by John Calvert last year and according to him it was current. Even with the predicted 30% increases in electricity rates for the next 3 years, the money we currently pay is ridiculously low.

To G West

If you think that BC Hydro can meet all of our future energy needs with conservation and upgrades to its own infrastructure then you should tell Bev Van Ruyen, the CEO of BC Hydro in charge of Demand Side Management. This is the arm of BC Hydro that is in charge of predicting what BC will need in the next 30 years. According to her and the department she represents, based upon BC Hydro's own figures, we will need 50% more generating capacity than we currently have in the next 30 years. BC Hydro also states that we will only be able to meet 40% of that amount for our future needs through conservation.

I'm not making any of these figures up, just providing information easily found with a little effort.

Bob Elton...

Perhaps you should check with Bob Elton about those energy forcasts..With the collapse of industry in BC.

The collapse orchestrated by Gordon(can`t run a peanut stand)Campbell.

Looks like we have tons of power.

Modred..Bring me back a piece of green cheese on your return trip from the moon.

Has anyone asked....

Luke and Green whatever just where the green energy will come from when the wind dies and there is low, or no water? Why bless my soul they will have to use backup generators. And even if they don't use these generators to supply the grid they still have to power the sites. And that takes all the Green out of their energy.

@J laroux

So what? Building a micro hydro generating station in virgin territory, just starting with developing road access, is much more expensive than redeveloping an existing generating station with access, transmission lines, and previous site preparation work already completed as well as other re-usable infrastructure already in-situ. Not rocket science stuff.

NDP Premier Mike Harcourt, 1995:

http://www2.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=3f1f52da-b4af-4553-bf7e-20509c111186

Reminds me of the left-wing Progressive Economics Forum where the following was posted:

http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2009/06/17/ndp-elected-in-nova-scotia-%e2%80%93-what-now/

Hmmmmm... NDP critic Leonard Krog is certainly a good representaive of the BC NDP (aside from Whiskey River) with this intelligent statement about IPP's:

http://www.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=ebbb3da1-ba5e-4139-9c36-14ecac9d020f

Oh and after the May, 2009 election the NDP makes another faux pas:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/06/12/bc-ndp-libs-carbon-tax.html

So what's everyone here squalking about? Nothing here - time to move on.

BTW, anyone here who thinks that any future BC NDP government will abandon futher IPP power projects probably also believes in the tooth fairy... or smokes too much BC bud.

Time to start up your own Socialist Utopian Party, eh Frank? ;)

No shame

Huh Luke. You crap all over someone, get bumped and come back like nothing happened.

Nice guy - I can see why you're a BC Liberal - you must fit right in.

Please do that - MOVE ON I Mean...

[COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Very interesting...Lets see,changed their mind on the carbon tax..

WRONG LUKE!..The NDP didn`t win the election, the NDP aren`t going to go around the province flogging a dead horse..

A moratorium on all IPPs..[EDITED.] The NDP didn`t win,they have no power to put a moratorium on anything..

[EDITED.]

Carole James stated on the Bill Good show last fall when asked will she get rid of the HST..Carole stated "It will be difficult,we would have to pay back 1.6 billion dollars"..

When Billy boy persisted with the question and asked again,will you get rid of the HST..

Carole responded "Bill,we are fighting hard now to prevent the HST from coming in,we must stop it before it comes in"

Your spin Luke is in bad taste and inaccurate.

[EDITED.].

19 projects worth $3 billion...The little ones..Bute,cancelled($4billion dollar project)..Naikun,caput($2 billion dollar project)

Two projects worth $6 billion that are dead....[EDITED.] don`t even realize that Campbell is playing the IPP boys,taking them for a ride.

Campbell knows green power export is a money loser.

[EDITED.]

on a related note

If something like this:
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/03/14/cobalt-catalyst-water-oxidation/

can allow hydrogen to go mainstream, then we may be able to get out of the jam we are in quite deftly. Let us hope we can have science solve our energy dilemmas without the capitalist corporate world hijacking what little is left of our sweat, our planet and our dignity as humans.

As it stands, solar is becoming cheaper and is being more widely used in places like the Great Western Desert that runs from Mexico to the Okanagan. The solar power in that desert has the capacity to electrify all of California (all of the Western US and Canada actually) at competing market rates, so that hydroelectric flow rates in our existing rivers need only be cranked up when it is dark. Solar grids can be installed in relatively lifeless sections of the Mohave Desert close to where most of it will be consumed: along the US West Coast: L.A. San Francisco, San Diego, and Portland etc..
http://www.solarbuzz.com/StatsCosts.htm

Modred

"Even with the predicted 30% increases in electricity rates for the next 3 years"

You're forgetting that hydro rates have already been going up over the last 10 years plus there is no guarantee this government will stop fleecing hydro customers after raising prices further over the next 3 years.

"the money we currently pay is ridiculously low"

Says who? Why not claim Canuck tickets are ridiculously underpriced? With a responsible public utility people pay what the utility requires, that's it. There is no "underpriced" because the price is what it is. With the private sector, its what the market will bear which is a different kettle of fish and words like "underpriced" are code for bigger profits.

I'm not inventing any of this, just applying a little logic available to anyone else who wishes to do the same.

dot Luke

"So what's everyone here squalking about?"

The article's subject. You should read it.

"BTW, anyone here who thinks that any future BC NDP government will abandon futher IPP power projects probably also believes in the tooth fairy... or smokes too much BC bud."

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But only someone who believes in the tooth fairy would believe a party that's elected because they're not Liberals would be well advised to adopt en masse those same Liberal policies. Sweet dreams Sherlock.

"Time to start up your own Socialist Utopian Party, eh Frank? ;)"

Nah, I'll wait till your Fascist Hell party meets its future in one of a myriad apocalyptic scenarios. Wouldn't miss it for the world.

Nuclear

Ten years from now as the world moves to clean and green nuclear power at 10% the cost of BCHydro's 40 year Pirate power commitment, we will look at Canwest-Gordo as the greatest fraud artist in Canadian history and ourselves as the biggest suckers.

From BCHydro's annual report Pirate capacity added last year came in at 10 cents a kilowatt hour. The Joint Industry Electrical Steering Committee has insider info from BCHydro showing new Pirate contracts averaging 12 cents a kwh. Current contracts have inflation clauses to that 12 cents a kwh.

Current mid Columbia spot price is 4.2 cents for peak energy and as little as zero for offpeak because of the need to dump Bonneville wind power.

When the latest Call for Power is complete Canwest/Gordo will have committed to $75B in new IPP purchases (1.3 Gw avg) - destroying hundreds of thousands of hectares of BC forexst and river bed, producing slightly more than the output of one nuclear plant which could be tucked in nicely at the existing Burrard thermal site and cost $6B equivalent.

BCHydro will have to more than double rates over the next four years to balance its Pirate commitments with 75% of its revenue going to pay off Gordo's Pirate cronies. The 33% announced rate increase is just the old slow boiling of the frog technique. Each year it will be more than more.

Contrary to analysis by BC's out of touch Greens, BC's electricity needs will triple as we commit to a large scale conversion to nuclear power as the only possible answer to our maybe less than ten years away civilization ending peak oil and climate crisis. Nukes will eliminate our air pollution, and create a huge employment boosting domestic and export industry. Mass produced nukes will be so cheap that the conversion will be paid for by the elimination of fossil fuels with a three year payback. Even the deniers here would go for it.

Alberta is doing it with Bruce Power proposing a 4 Gw nuke addition to Alberta's current 10 Gw average capacity.

Latest quote from Areva and AECL in Toronto - 1.5 cents a kilowatt hour for 60 years. Korea committed to a similar 1.5 cents a kilowatt hour bid for the UAE. The units themselves are $2.3B/Gw for AECL and $3.5B/Gw for Korea.

Current Canadian nuclear cost is 2.6 cents a kwh according to the OECD.

AECL and Westinghouse are predicting costs to drop to $1B/Gw with 3 year construction time frames for factory production after the first twenty orders or so.

As electric car usage slowly builds, older Canadian vehicles would be fueled with natural gas made available by replacing tar sand and power utility natural gas usage with nuclear steam.

With the US nuclear industry crippled by an out of control regulator, BC Hydro could make $billions selling the US nuke power at premium rates

UJnfortunately with Canwest Gordo's commitment to his Pirate cronies, it's likely a future bankrupt BCHydro will be powered by charitable donations of nuclear power from Alberta.

Real solar costs

A mass produced no tech single pane skylight at Home Depot costs $200 a sq meter.

A 120 watt solar panel is really nothing more than a sq meter of solar cells worth maybe $120 today glued to that skylite.

If the skylite leaks the solar panel dies just like the mess it leaves on your ceiling.

Until super efficient solar cells, or nuclear fusion more likely first, get down to a reasonable price, the current ones even free glued to that skylight will keep prices above $2 a watt or over 40 cents a kwh average installed in BC.

Big Oil loves solar panels. Each one that is installed lets them sell a bunch of expensive natural gas having to compete wirh dirt cheap coal and nuclear power.

@ .Luke.

Don’t say this to a project engineer. They’ll laugh in your face.

Who says that new sites require new roads, or that road access is costly? Surely existing logging/mining roads were used, and anyway gravel access roads are not terribly expensive to build. Most of the projects in the 2006 CFT are not far from existing roads and power lines anyway (with the big exception of Toba Inlet).

Aberfeldie involved the replacement of nearly every component involved in generation. According to BC Hydro, it “entails the replacement of the existing intake structure, wood stave penstock, surge tower, powerhouse, generating equipment, and switchyard. The only portion of the existing facility that will be retained is the dam structure. The project will also include new modern control systems and a new microwave telecontrol system page 24 of 333. While the transmission lines were not replaced, the demolition and removal of nearly all of the facility is not free. I couldn’t tell you how much a few km of 66kV transmission lines would cost, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were far less that this demolition cost.

Finally, as I point out above, the contractor for Aberfeldie has done similar work for several IPPs.

Ha! As if you’d know!

Seriously? You’re quoting some random comment from some blog? You really thought this was worth quoting?! Are things really that hard for you these days? Too sad.

Didn’t you read the article, or some of the comments? Maybe you’ve already forgotten all the articles relating to IPPs on this site?

So your posts boil down to a few lies, a few red herrings, and some vilification of the NDP. You’ve changed your handle repeatedly, but it’s nice to know that you’re the same old Luke :)

Are you kidding?

To Seth
I cannot believe that someone would actually put the two words "green" and "nuclear" in the same sentence and try to pass it off as good for British Columbia.

As for the cost to build, it would be the most expensive energy construction project in the history of BC, far surpassing Site C for dollars per megawatt.

One need only to look at the massive project cost over runs of the original Darlington Nuclear installation during the 1980's.

As for the recent submissions for the expansion of Darlington, find a partial quote below.

Quote
"The submission is to support "future decisions" by government, despite the disaster of an invitation for bids to build new reactor units. After inviting Areva, Westinghouse and Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd (AECL) to bids to build the reactors, only AECL's bid was acceptable, the Ontario provincial government said in June. This is thought to be because the tender asked for the overall absolute expenditure required for the reactors without considering income from the power they would generate over their 60-year lifespans. Not surprisingly, the result seemed overly expensive to say the least.

The Darlington project is the one of three in Ontario to end abruptly over the last year. Bruce Power's applications to CNSC for new nuclear plants at Bruce C and Nanticoke have both been withdrawn, while power demand in Ontario has dropped with the loss of manufacturing work, notably in the carmaking industry."

Full story below
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN_Darlington_nuclear_project_moves_0510091.html

A second article concerning nuclear expansion in Ontario

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1635496

Not surprising was the strong objections from BC citizens when Alberta proposed to build a nuclear installation close to the BC-Alberta border.

I think that any person, organization or party that would propose to build a nuclear generating station anywhere in BC would lose all credibility with the people of British Columbia, considering the abundance of truly clean, green renewable electricity generation capabilities that we have.

Nuclear Deniers

I'm saddened by the lack of knowledge and inability to see past church dogma exhibited by devotees of the Nuclear Denier religious community.

The original Darlington cost overruns in the eighties were caused by Ontario Hydro starting and stopping construction over and over again during a high interext rate climate. In the end, the cost was a less than the current cost of coal and NG - a very good deal for Ontario. Of course the tens of thousands of people now alive who would be dead from deadly radioactive toxic coal emissions if Ontario had built coal plants instead are never a concern for those of the Nuclear Denier faith - a strange religion indeed.

M seems to have trouble understanding the links posted so let me clarify.

The current Darlington bid is #26B. The cost of reactors was $2.3B which is a tiny fraction any renewable alternative. The other $24B or so was the cost of fueling and maintaining the reactors for 60 years. Nobody knowe what the payment schedule was but spread over 60 years that would be 1.5 cents a kwh or if payment was lumpsum that would amount to 6.5 cents a kwh - both great deals by BC standards. What incenses Ontario is Harpo refusing to cover any AECL ACR-1000 contiguencies. The current Premier is a rather stupid Nuclear Denier with absurd wind and solar fantasies.

The problem is Harpo who is a traitor to his country, bought and paid for, and under orders from Big Oil wants to destroy Ontario's entry in the into the nuclear energy renaissance. Read Thomas Frank's, The Wrecking Crew to understand how and why Neocons try to wreck public industries. No better example than BC's own Neocon who has destroyed BCRail and is well on his way to finishing off BCHydro.

Here are some real recent sale prices and actual nuclear build costs and time frames.

A recent Korean sale to the UAE with no industrial capacity whatsoever came in at $3.5/Gw including bribes and if a sixty year contract is signed it will cost less than 1.5 cents a kwh including maintenance and fuel. Service 2017 with massive penalty clause for delays.

Westinghouse sold four NRC approved American designed AP-1000 units to China 4 year construction time, 2013 service - cost $1.2 B/Gw.

AECL's Qinshan 2 Candu 6's , 4 year construction time, $2B /Gw

AECL and Westinghouse are predicting costs to drop to $1B/Gw with 3 year construction time frames for factory production after the first twenty orders or so.
.
India's new nuke waste burning 500 Mw GenIV power plant is coming into service next year at a cost of $1.5B/Gw. Six years construction time for first of a kind.

Site C would cost between #10B/Gw and
12B/Gw. While much less expemsive than wind this would be many times the cost of nuclear.

Recent surveys havc support for nuclear power in the 65% range across Western Canada.

BC has no renewable options that can come anywhere close to meeting its future power needs at less then 20 cents a kwh.

Back it up

It's fairly easy to throw out numbers as if they are fact, so put your money where your mouth is. It shouldn't be too difficult for you to provide a link to any survey that shows 65% support in Western Canada for nuclear energy. You may be able to fool some of the people with your bluster, but you haven't convinced me.

In fact I can't recall a recent survey conducted in British Columbia that showed 65% of British Columbia that supported a nuclear energy installation in Port Moody, and I'm pretty sure BC is still located in Western Canada.

In fact I would be willing to bet that if asked the majority of people living in the lower mainland would vote against having a nuclear power plant built anywhere in their neighborhood.

As for the 20 cents a kwh hour for renewable energy, what have you been smoking? Provide the name of any IPP that has signed a contract with BC Hydro for supplying electricity in the last 20 years for that amount.

So according to you any premier or prime minister that doesn't agree with your personal left leaning ideology is a traitor to their respective citizens. What a terribly narrow minded view.

If you are such a big fan of nuclear energy then I suggest you pack your bags and head to Iraq, you'd fit right in. They're building nuclear power plants like there's no tomorrow. Happy trails.

Modred

"considering the abundance of truly clean, green renewable electricity generation capabilities that we have."

Where would this be exactly? Because wrecking rivers is neither clean nor green.

@ Modred

Nuclear plants in Iraq?

Really, where?

I know there's been some talk about them getting the French to build ONE plant but they haven't had a nuclear facility in that country since the Israelis bombed the first one the French built for them. I think that happened in 1981.

More Nuclear Denier Bafflegab

It is impossible to change the mind of a religious zealot, one who thinks there are nuclear plants in Iraq. No point.

“Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status.” Steven Harper

Now there's the proud Canadian and by his actions a traitor to his country.

The twenty cents a kwh includes a large underestimate of the cost of transmission lines and the cost of storage or natural gas plant required to deal with the intermittent nature of so called renewables most requiring renewing every twenty years when they fall apart. Neither Gordo nor McWeenie include these as feed in costs as they would reduce their post political job prospects.

You can use G O O G L E to find all kinds of surveys on public opinion on nuclear issues. Given the onslaught of disinformation from Big Oil and their Astroturf supporters at Suzuki. Pembina, Greenpeace, WWF, and Sierra 65% in favour is an amazing result.

As for a Port Moody nuclear survey I think you would find far more opposition to a ugly noisy wind farm producing almost no power to a quiet nuclear plant producing zero pollution replacing a deadly radioactive gas spewing stinking noisy gas plant.

Like I said

To G West
I meant Iran, not Irag, and I'm pretty sure there are nuclear power plants still in use that haven't been bombed yet, and even more planned to be built.

To Seth
I asked you to provide a survey that backs up your claims to 65% support for nuclear installations in Western Canada. I don't care who conducted them. Your failure to do so proves my point. All talk, no substance.

I asked you to provide the name of one IPP that signed a contract for 20 cents per kilowatt and you didn't. Your lame reasons don't cut it and your failure to do so proves my point. All talk, no substance.

As for Burrard Thermal, last time I checked there are plans to decommission it. As for a wind farm, I'm also pretty sure there are no applications to install wind turbines at that site. No application means no reason for a comparison survey.

Not in Iraq there aren't

With respect, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.

As for Iran...here's the latest information on their nuclear programs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4617398.stm

I don't have an oar in this debate - except to say that BC can produce all the hydro it needs NOW and, with some of the conservation measures utilized in California (for example), for the foreseeable future. The energy shortage ‘crisis’ is a manufactured issue precisely to enable the take over of BC’s public assets by friends of the Campbell government – exactly the same tactic the traitor has been using in every part of the province’s economy.

The panic for private power and the sell-off of British Columbia's generating capacity to corporate interests is not needs driven - it's profit driven.

If you want some data about the safety and reliability of nuclear power in a context that's meaningful relative to the British Columbia situation you need look no further than France.

Here's a start for you:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html

Modred "Adult" education centre

Can I recommend one for you? All I did was G O G G L E saskatchewan residents' support nuclear and out it came. After you sign up ask your teacher about the innernet. She can help you.

I do hope you sign up for a reading course as well.

The amount we pay IPP's on individual contracts is not considered public information by your friend El Gordo.

The bulk of the transmission and all storage cost is payed by BCHydro not the IPP.

I'm pretty sure I do

To G West
If it's a manufactured energy crisis, then it seems the entire world has been fooled, not just here in BC. According to you, every province in Canada is on a false quest to make sure they have enough electricity for future needs, all driven by corporate greed. Seems to me that someone is seeing the bogeyman everywhere. You would also presume that all those high priced engineers at BC Hydro are just wasting the taxpayer's dollars trying to determine the future needs of BC ratepayers.

As for the safety of nuclear installations, that was never in question. The issue was whether or not we should build one in BC. Based upon the quantity of renewable resources, which would include, but not restricted to, tidal, wave, geothermal, wind, micro hydro and bio energy there is a vast untapped potential for green renewable electricity generation in BC.

To Seth
Your quote was "Recent surveys havc support for nuclear power in the 65% range across Western Canada." I included your spelling error, so you might take your own advice and enroll in a spelling course. Based upon your statement, there must have been more than 1 survey done and it should have included all of Western Canada, otherwise it's an erroneous statement.

As for the costs that IPP's are paid for the electricity supplied to BC Hydro it is all public knowledge easily found on their website. The information regarding the recently signed 19 contracts will be public knowledge as well. In case you hadn't realized, BC Hydro is a crown corporation and everything is there for the public to view. By law it has to be.

Modred

Hardly.

Could you please show me where I've said any such thing? In fact I've said nothing whatever about the situation anywhere but here in BC - check it out!

Show me how the total electical energy production from this province does not more than meet current needs - right now: I know you can't - it's as simple as that.

And, if you'd done any research into the situation in California you'd be aware of what can be done in terms of conservation and reducing demand - things we haven't even scratched the surface of here.

If you think everything BC Hydro is up to is on the public record though, it's not just Iraq and Iran you're confused about.

Environmental Disasters

As bad as run-of-the-river hydro plants are to the environment, the damage they cause is minimal when compared to the huge, 1 Mw+ wind mills. Run of the river generally has a certain amount of reliable energy (= the 7 day low flow) and a fairly reliable seasonable production. In most cases, twice or 3 times as much installed wind mills generation needs to be built, each with a foot print and an access roads to each, plus monthly maintenance visits. Wind mills have additional environmental impacts, including knocking off lots of raptures, which are soaring birds and like the same locations as wind mills. USAF&W is considering charging US wind producers with killing endangered species at high rates (the US Secretary is interfering).

So run-of-the-river is a terrible way to produce electricity except for all the others. Geo-thermal steam is another good choice, it has been running in Calif for 40 years. However, politics can make any method or project from good to bad.

G West - Built for Peaks

Electrical capacity is built to meet peaks, averages are meaningless except for income to Hydro. Electricity from run of the river is maximized during the spring (snow melt) or fall (rains) will allow water to be stored and not spilled from reservoirs on the main system. However some water will always be spilled. Only geo-thermal and thermal plants can be shut down without loss of storage. Wind can be balanced with hydro since wind varies constantly, but is usually balanced with peaking plants.

BC sells and buys power with Alberta and the US almost every year, depending on the time of year. Alberta electricity is usually imported in late winter when reservoirs are low and line losses are maximized.

I'm not talking about averages

I'm talking about actually producing - on an historical basis - more than enough net energy to meet the provinces actual needs. PERIOD.

Without building ANY more capacity at the present time AND, by instituting a range of very simple and straightforward conservation measures including smart metering to make certain that there will be enough energy for future needs as well. I'm well aware of the border import/export arrangements with both Alberta and Washington.

BC is NOT a net importer or power - that's simply a fact - the only people lighting their hair on fire about a 'current' crisis in electricity capacity are people who stand to make a handsome profit by signing sweetheart deals which will enable them to be 'net' exporters of power at the 'expense' of British Columbia taxpayers and and Hydro rate payers.

If we have cheap power now it's one of the few competitive advantages we have left: all the rest having been sold to to foreign-owned corporations or wasted through serial mismanagement like our salmon and forests.

Global warming needs electricity

While currently BC doesn't import net electricity, close to 2/3 of our energy use is fossil fuels. Fossil's cost a lot money and create immense environmental damage from air pollution.

By replacing our fossil fuel use with mass produced nuclear power,we do our part in the war against global warming, peak oil, and the elimination of millions of annual deaths world wide from air pollution.

Mass produced nukes are so much cheaper than fossils that the payback is less than three years.

Since the US nuclear industry is so crippled by regulation and inefficient power companies, we could export nuclear power creating a massive multibillion market for BCHydro.

If we don't do it Alberta will.

We can nickel and dime ourselves with Site C's, and the odd geothermal, wind or tidal plant but the cost of these is so high and the output so small that we'd be better off importing nuclear power from Alberta. I'm sure Bruce Power would be happy to sign us up to their planned 4 reactor complex.