The Hook

FNs were asked.

My understanding is that FNs were asked for input and refused to participate.

Once again an opportunity is missed to make sure a job is done and done properly. And further that with the same short sightedness no attempt is being made to secure long term financial benefit for the area.

There is nothing wrong with mining, per se, as long as all attempts are made to ensure proper restoration is done after the fact.

My favourite non argument against this project is the one advanced that grizzly bears may be endangered.

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/mine+could+endanger+grizzly+population+biologist+warns/3130413/story.html

This is easy enough to mitigate by cancelling hunting permits in the area and further making sure that the "keepers of the forests" who do not require permits to hunt refrain from doing so for ceremonial purposes.

Further to this it is my understanding that there is currently no such thing as "Tsilhqot'in territories". It's interesting how the word 'traditional' has been dropped.

Just got this link from a lady in Louisiana

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/05/25/breaking-oil-spill-in-alaska-pipeline-is-51-owned-by-bp/
Have you been told?

DPL:How much fakaloo dollars?

I'm not dissin' you but what would a person do with Florida property these days? Count the Tar balls?
Folks down there are facing the pointy end of the tool that made our life style possible: OIL!
Maybe some of them would be interested in some "Moose Pasture"

The FN have been opposing

The FN have been opposing the Kill Fish Lake mine, falsely called Prosperity from the beginning.

It is an environmental disaster waiting to happen. Apart from the local damage and pollution, a long row of trucks are planned to carry the ore close to 800 km to the ports, as we now have the nearby Polley Mtn. copper gold mine's trucks breaking up our roads.

Do we need more tucks breaking up our roads and polluting the air?

With the NAFTA having destroyed Canada's economy, we're now a parasitic "resource based economy", selling the ground from under our feet, to pay or "wealth creating foreign investors" while calling it GDP and "income"

The Fish lake mine is supposed to have a 20 year lifespan. So what then? 20 years is nothing for an economy. What happens to the people then with the loss of employment and the permanent damage to the area?

"Move where the jobs are" in the best Reform Party policy ?

Ed Deak.

As usual Fiat Lux

You nailed it.
But you and I are old and it is up to the young uns to sort this stuff out. In fact you sound younger than I feel - I'll be 63 next month and from what you write you are somewhat more mature.
I'm guessing here but weren't we lucky to have been born sooner?

Interesting concept, Ed.

parasitic "resource based economy"

So just who is being fed off of?

Actually, Ed you may wish to qualify your statement and change that to some FNs. I will correct my previous statement to acknowledge the participation of some FNs but some have also chosen to ignore calls to participate.

http://www.tasekomines.com/i/tko/pdf/ClosingSubmission.pdf

This found on pg 8

"In conclusion, and without intending to be disrespectful in any way to the Tsilhqot’in people, it is Taseko’s conclusion that the Fish Lake area has fond memories and spiritual significance to many Tsilhqot’in people, but taking into account the assessment of Mr. Justice Vickers in the William case, it may not have any more or less spiritual significance than other land throughout the area described in the Nemiah Declaration of 1989."

http://www.fonv.ca/media/nemiah.pdf

This link seems to indicate that this lake is outside the area affected by the Nemiah Declaration.

Unfortunately the map on the official site for the declaration seems to be missing.

http://www.xenigwetin.com/index.php?mod=declaration

Snert.....the Canadian

Snert.....the Canadian economy was growing in leaps and bounds in the 50s and 60s, with new, small manufacturing plants, including mine, opening up all over, making a huge variety of goods and paying good wages.

The neoclassical theory was forced on us, and the world, by miseducated economists and paid off governments, beginning in the 70s.

The Bilderbergers have been around since the 50s, but look up when the Trilaterals et al started, with the setting up of advertising agencies, like the Fraser Inst. disguised as "economic think tanks".

The main purpose of so called "free trade", combined with the deregulated money creation powers given to banks, is the "creation" of non existing, imaginary monies for the purpose of taking control of the world's resources, economies and peoples, through forced urbanization, and the collectivization of resources and industries, through the elimination of people's democratic decision making powers and real private enterprise.

Canada has lost, probably, tens of thousands of manufacturing businesses with a million jobs, more millions in the USA and 70% of Mexico pushed below poverty levels by NAFTA alone. Now look what the executives of the corporate mafia are taking home, while millions, who could easily be fed, are starving to death.

What we are now is a factory where the owners fired the production workers, but increased the office and maintenance jobs, paid from the dismantling and the sale of machinery, stocks and infrastructure.

How long can such "resource" and "service" based economies last ?

Look up the names of the handful of corporations who now control the world's food supply in the best Soviet kolkhoz fashion, while hundreds of millions are forced off their lands and into city slums.

As it happened in Haiti.

Ed Deak.

Doggone....I'm 83, survived

Doggone....I'm 83, survived the nazis and communists and have all the intention to survive this present gang of crooks, called capitalists.

Ed Deak.

So you survived, Ed

I don't think you are the only one. It is duly noted that you have probably survived off the backs of others who provided the iron and steel to make your tools and transportation as well as that required for any infrastructure needed to provide them. This is similar to a lot of the FNs who are opposing the project, as well.

The problem with Canada is that we have kept our population growth to a minimum and this prevents a lot of expansion in manufacturing. I'm sorry , Ed but I get the feeling there is a lot of NIMBYism in your argument against this mine.

I think you have things

I think you have things muddled Snert. There is a big difference between capitalism and corporatism. And thats the rub, we in the global economy are controlled by corporations and our governments genuflect to their wishes. Proof of the pudding; didn't you see how many corporations got bailed out a couple of years ago when the economy went for a nose dive? How many small independent companies got bailed out? Even Canadian chartered banks got $75 billion back in '08 from our federal Government, and how much more they have received since then, who knows? (and we get told all the time that our banks are in good financial shape, what horseshit) How many Credit Unions got into trouble during the same period? Haven't heard of one. It's obvious that your not paying attention?

Info

http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_cariboo/williamslaketribune/news/96542299.html

Yeah, Van Isle, the banks got money and they put it all in their pockets an it's never been seen since. Get real!

Reality

"Fish Lake" was never even a destination for ANYONE, until the Chilko Ranch built a road to it in the early 1930s so they could divert water from "Fish Lake" to irrigate hay meadows. Native cowhands working for Chilko Ranch were the first to fish there.
Yes, the lake WILL be destroyed, BUT, it will be replaced by a newly stocked lake(with Fish Lake strain, transported to the new lake) so that there is no "net loss". I hate the idea of losing ANY lake, but in reality we are are not.

I do hate the idea of the so-called "Tchilotin National Government" under the dictatorship of Joey Alphonse, blackmailing everyone with threats, when he can't be bothered to show up to "consultations". I'm sorry, this world is run by those who show up. That ain't "new".

Speaking as an Aboriginal

Snert, you just don't get it.
Aboriginals had their territory taken from them and then were put on tiny patches of substandard land.
There are many more horrors, which I'm sure you're aware of.
And the disrespect continues under the guise of jobs, progress and all the other cliches trotted out by disillusioned capitalists.
I'm sick of what are most likely white men pontificating about aboriginals.

Snert.....We need mining,

Snert.....We need mining, but not for the sale of resources to replace our own manufacturing.

We also need exports and imports to trade resources we don't have. But the export of resources to buy the things we could make locally is plain stupid and not cheaper, because the only logical a legal definition of efficiency is the making ofthings with the lowest physical inputs.

Monetary efficiency is a fraud, as it covers up the real costs, which are ruining our ecologies and lives.

I wish I could have run my businesses without debits and bills to pay, the way the present economic system pretends to do, by ignoring the liabilities.

Incl. the oil spills, which are liabilities yet are raising the phony GDP figures.

Ed Deak.

Ramona777

It's about time the FNs got off their butts and entered the real world. The argument that they had what was never theirs in the first place taken from them just doesn't wash. It was all subject to change at the tribal level.

Nobody owns the land, not even the crown, as much as they would like to think so.

If you wish to wallow in self pity then I'm afraid things will never change for the better.

There is opportunity here for the betterment of all but whining about it is just plainly unproductive.

If the mine does not go through the worse case scenario is that at some point in time some one else could come into the area who just doesn't give a rat's ass about the environment and the just rip the shit out of the whole area.

That's why I say that the mine should be allowed but that we should ensure that restoration is carried out to the fullest extent.

Ed

If you would to keep your little corner of the world as cozy as it appears to be at the moment then I really suggest you be careful what you wish for.

Snert....I don't wish, I

Snert....I don't wish, I think, plan and work for things and have the results to show.

And without ruining anybody's lives or causing destruction.

Having lived under every known ideology I have seen how they self destruct and can see it in capital letters now with this present gang.

Faith conquers all, especially logical thought.

And this applies most of all to economies built on "faith".

Ed Deak.

Snert

I'm not wallowing in self-pity but everytime I go somewhere and see people (descendants of European settlers) who are wealthy because they were given, or bought very cheaply, the best land, it breaks my heart.
Then I go visit a reserve and see the bit of land aboriginals have been pushed on.
When it's so obvious it's pretty hard to get over.
The "betterment of all," now exactly what do you mean by that?
Aren't we learning that you can't trust oil, mining, forestry companies.
Maybe it's time we re-examined our goals and maybe we should be content with less progress, less destruction of the land.

Ramona777

FNs have certainly been treated poorly in the past and amends have been made in some cases but it is about time they stopped living in the past and moved on.

Treaties that are in the process of being negotiated should be completed sooner rather than later then they must start accepting responsibility for their own actions.

I have lived on a reserve and spent time on several others and I know for a fact that these people are no different than anyone else. If given the chance they will take control of their lives and live productively within their respective communities. I also know that there are others that would rather just take advantage of the system for their own gains. This includes some of people that say they are standing up for the 'rights' of aboriginals.

As to the "betterment of all", if you can't figure out how that works then there is no hope. If the mine does not go through then the status quo is maintained which by your own words is undesirable.

There has never been anything stopping FNs from gaining title to deeded lands that may have been theirs in the past. It might take some cash but that can be earned by, say working for a mining or logging company. Even getting woodlot licenses allows for regaining some control.

I've always wondered why various bands didn't purchase lands that abutted their reserves when they came available. Some have had the ability to do this for some time now.

Ed

I find that impossible to believe.

You've never ever eaten a banana or used sugar, white or dark? You use stone tools and drive an ox cart? You never made a piece of furniture from mahogany or some other exotic wood? You have participated, sorry.

You might be right, Ed you don't wish but you do appear to be swishing. That's the sound of the broom as you try to erase your foot prints from the sand. You may make fewer than most but you do still make them.

Snert... I don't know how

Snert... I don't know how much you know about making things, but I happen to be a slightly overeducatded tradesman in several trades, first apprenticed at 28, top liner, well published, in at least one craft, owner manager in manufacturing for 35 years, and have a good idea of how to make and grow things the best possible, environmentally friendly way, with the least destruction.

It is obvious that every one of our actions is causing some kind of a damage, but that can be mitigated and cut back.

E.g. Years ago I could buy an electric drill that would last 30-40 years and I still have electric tools that old. This imported junk is lucky to last 2-3 years, but it makes huge profits to the slave labour owners and the middlemen controllers.

The same goes for clothing, shoes, and just about anything we use. The foods people eat, rammed down their throats by agribiz are full of chemicals, GM etc.

50 years ago no children had cancers, leukemia and breast cancers were virtually unknown and a few had diabetes. Now the numbers are growing daily. Look at the fat pigs walking the streets, pumped up by junk foods.

So, it is time for you and the rest of the faithful to wake up and and realize the royal screwing given to us by our "distinguished business leaders"

Ed Deak.

Assessment Report

Check out this report written by the BC Environmental Assessement agency.

http://www.ceaa.gc.ca/050/documents_staticpost/44811/1799.pdf

This really gives you a clear idea of how big this project is and the potential for significant environmental disaster.

Of course, the federal

Of course, the federal environmental review panel will also give it the go ahead, regardless of the miles of testimonies against the project, as they wouldn't dare to cross "economist" Harper, who must have by now also received divine approval from God.

Like Reagan's first Secretary of the Interior, James Watts said :"When the last tree is cut, the Lord will return", and who would dare to argue with that ?

And, we're now also a "resource based economy" to pay for the forced urbanization of rural areas and the office skyscrapers, the ultimate proofs of our economic succeess.

As one of our former PC MPs, Dave Worthy, wrote in our papers: "We may have lost a lot of manufacturing jobs to the FTA, but we doubled the service jobs".

We had some prospectors from an American company on our land some years ago, but we told them to go to hell. "Don't you want to make some money ?" Not that way.

Ed Deak.

kootenay

Good link. Looks like a pretty thorough report to me. Also interesting about the FN participation.

Doing a search within the document for "post-closure" can cut down the time it takes to find the work that will be done to rehab the area after mining has wound down.