InSult

Science says safe injection works. So why shut it down?

By Richard Warnica, 30 May 2007, TheTyee.ca

Big Story

Despite peer-reviewed study after peer-reviewed study after peer-reviewed study providing evidence that it’s doing its job, North America’s first and only supervised injection site could close its doors by the end of this year.

The site, which has operated in Vancouver since 2003, was bolstered again last week by the release of a study showing that users of the site were 30-per cent more likely to participate in detox programs. This is hardly new or surprising news. As Elaine Brier reported in The Tyee last fall, “by providing a benign environment for injection drug users, Insite (located on the infamous 100 block of East Hastings) has, if anything, reduced the harm and severity of the drug problem in the Downtown Eastside.”

Still, that’s not enough for the federal Tories. If reports are to be believed, the Conservatives will not renew the site’s legal exemption when they release a new enforcement heavy drug plan later this week. And without the legal exemption, Insite, along with the lives it saves and the research it fuels, will have to close its doors in December.

Again, we’re hardly shocked. As Ottawa Citizen columnist (and friend of Today’s Big Story) Dan Gardner put it yesterday “[i]gnoring research, evidence and logic is what the Tories do. So now they're going to do it some more. Ho-hum.” But it’s still disheartening.

No one claims Insite will solve Vancouver's drug problem. But with good solid research now showing it can help reduce the spread of HIV/AIDS, vastly curtail the number of deaths by overdose and provide a way in for addicts seeking treatment, we should be talking about ramping the project up, not shutting it down.  [Tyee]

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  • reality_check

    4 years ago

    A hell-angel speaks about drugs ...

    Thanks to the conservatives north and south of the border, I --and my friends-- make a decent living. Thanks. Of course, it is hard to know what is it that makes them hold this extremist position, one that has not proven to amount to anything for the last 100 years. Is it the money ... because they love money or is it the value that their religion cannot accept? If there wasn't any money in it, we would not be doing it. I think this is simple to understand for those guys who love economics! Given the right education campaign given to kids for one generation, given the right injection sites, given the legalization of all drugs after that, there should not be anymore druggies than there are alcoholics. Maybe there are too many people making a living out of the stuff.

  • Chris H

    4 years ago

    They don't care ...

    The reason that Insite will be closed down is that Harper and his cronies simply don't care what happens to the drug addicts on the DTES. They have to play to their base to get them to come out on election day and this is a defining issue for them; they are "tough" on drugs while everyone else is "soft". If a few addicts die from overdoses because of this decision then they can live with that. Disgusting but true.

  • bpither1

    4 years ago

    Ideology trumps Good Sense

    I think Harper cares about drug addicts the same way someone smacks his wife because he "cares" about her. This twisted, ideologically driven tough love is good for those we feel "power over". Since it is your fault to be a drug addict you will have to suffer the consequences as we will not enable you to continue on with your habit. Funny enough for a so called fiscally responsible PM withholding funds will add an additional burden to the health care service. I witnessed lots of raging drug addicts at St. Pauls when I took my mum in to be treated at Emergency. My mum never hurt anyone in her life and yet we had to wait our turn, in pain and worry, as each and every frequently flying high patient was assisted for a drug overdose. And HIV or Hep C? Wake up!

  • deeby

    4 years ago

    Part of the reason...

    ...that they'll ignore the research and cut the funding is that they don't believe they'll be any political costs. After all, the DES is in Libby's riding.

    I do think they underestimate the support for Insite amoung fiscal conservatives across the Lower Mainland, e.g. there's at least some NPA councilors, and the Mayor, that support it. That said, I suppose most of those votes are federal Liberals.

  • realisticman

    4 years ago

    Blood & Crime on the tracks

    Firstly, this was not and is not the one and only site. This site was set up after arguments were made regarding the Swiss experiment;

    "Initially the response was to try to contain drug use by tolerating use within limited geographical areas. However, as one informant indicated, the policy was not well thought out and should not be construed as one of harm reduction. The assumption seemed to be that containment would limit the spread of drug use and also make it easier to provide services to users. In Zurich, this policy contributed to the rise of the so-called "Needle Park", which at its peak was estimated to include 3,000 heroin users. The park became a public embarrassment for the Swiss and clearly contributed to increased trafficking and to a variety of public health and public order problems. Drug-related arrests tripled from 1990-1994 (Klingemann, 1998). When police activity in the park was first intensified, a core group of 200-300 addicts moved to an abandoned railway station. For a while these and about 2,500 occasional drug users continued to congregate in and around the station area and to cause problems for the police and public. However, as a consequence of more assertive police activities, the forced relocation of addicts to their home cantons, and the establishment of decentralized low-threshold and other services, the open drug scene was radically diminished."

    The huge difference is that the Swiss prescribe heroin and transition addicts to other medicines, and eventually to nothing.

    http://politicsofsin.50megs.com/H/swiss.heroin.summary_lancet.367.1830-4_2006.html

    If Vancouver continues to operate a site for illegally obtained drugs the misery and crime that spreads from the DTES will continue.

    The Swiss have dispersed the addicts, Vancouver should too.

  • Collage

    4 years ago

    A while back I was walking

    A while back I was walking through Gastown and looked down to see that I was about to step on 2 needles that had been left in the middle of the sidewalk. I then happened to look up and saw a bus load of school kids half a block away running into the now closed Storeum. What if the needles had been left where the kids were walking? Some curious child could easily have picked them up or stepped on them and been exposed to god knows what kind of illness or infection.

    I was at the Chinese New Year parade this year, and saw a needle sticking out of the grass behind a bench where two toddlers sat. Again, within easy reach of curious hands.

    If for no other reason than to get our streets cleaner and protect little kids, Insite and it's needle exchange should be encouraged and expanded.

  • flattax

    4 years ago

    Insight is an illegal shooting gallery

    They break the law in there. CLOSE IT DOWN! Even the UN says it should be closed for flaunting drug laws.

    Everything you can do to make it more difficult, dangerous or deadly to do an action will result in less of that action. SO WHY MAKE IT EASY TO INJECT DRUGS? You just make it worse. In economic terms, it is called moral hazard. Look it up:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

    Despite what the above article says, there is overwhelming evidence that the safe injection site makes the overall problem of addiction worse.

    We should also stop making it easier to get clean needles. That way the addicts will reuse what they have and not disgard them in the street. Lets not externalize the addiction problem to innocents by flooding the street with clean needles.

    Addiction is a choice. They are victims by choice. Let's not forget that. It is not a disease, like cancer or diabetes, it is a lifestyle choice. Let's not make that choice a little more painful by closing the safe injection site.

  • Rhea

    4 years ago

    Quote:We should also stop

    Quote:
    We should also stop making it easier to get clean needles. That way the addicts will reuse what they have and not disgard them in the street. Lets not externalize the addiction problem to innocents by flooding the street with clean needles.

    Yeah, you could subscribe to the Judge Judy viewpoint and say "give them dirty needles and let them die", which some people find morally repugnant and others see as a well-deserved fate for addicts. However, there is a purely economic problem related to this approach - health care costs.

    Treating addicts when they show up at the hospital is expensive. Addicts tend to suffer from a lot of chronic conditions, some related to drug use and some brought on from malnutrition or poverty and compounded by neglect. It's a lot more expensive to call out the ambulance for an overdose and then find out that the person has septic infections from ill-fitting shoes and lack of access to medical care (and yes, I've seen this - my brother-in-law is a paramedic who has worked the DTES). Currently, our health care system can't refuse emergency treatment based on addiction. Even the US user-pay health system doesn't do this. So they arrive at the hospital and end up taking up a bed for several weeks, costing the taxpayer a fortune. If they were using InSite and had regular contact with a nurse there, chances are the problem would have been caught and treated earlier, possibly even by a local clinic instead of the hospital, for a lot less money and time.

    Addicts who don't have access to clean needles will share them, spreading disease and again, upping health care costs. AIDS and Hepatitis C are REALLY expensive to treat, and they are primarily spread through blood-to-blood contact. By providing clean needles, you eliminate that vector of infection.

    InSite allows health care workers to steer some of the addicts they see into treatment, pulling them out of the addiction/hospitalization cycle and possibly even getting them on track to become productive citizens who are actually contributing to the cost of health care rather than sapping the system.

    Now, you could close InSite down and argue that the moral issue of refusing to succour or countenance drug issues trumps the increased health costs. However, with our current health care system falling apart at the seams, my feeling is anything that keeps people out of the acute/emergency care system is a good thing.

  • Capitalism

    4 years ago

    Treating Schmeating

    The only stat I see is that users are 30% more likely to try and detox. This article does not discuss the costs or the impact on society. 30% more than what? How many try to kick it without Insite?

    I want to see (a) the total costs of Insite, and (b) how many Insite users have kicked the habit. Then, let's divide (a) by (b) and figure out the cost per cure.

    Also, I don't like the message we are sending when we allow the open use of dangerous narcotics. Needle exchanges are one thing, this is a whole different animal.

    Let's hear what the Tories have to say and form our opinion. Let's also be honest, Inscape has had a negligable, if not zero, impact on the state of the DTES.

  • flattax

    4 years ago

    Our health care system is focused on addicts

    St. Pauls seems to be a hospital for addicts. Shocking it seems to be like Kandahar there at night with the lock down. Our whole health care system seems to be focused on addicts, a morally repugnant and disgusting bunch of people. Thieving and prostituting themselves for a fix. Uggh. Pity the middle class person, who can't afford to go to a private clinic really getting sick. So hard to get an MRI or real treatment until you are so sick it is too late. Go into the hospital with an OD or a drug abuse related illness and you get treated immediately. The poverty and drug lobby is so strong that the burecrats are terrified.

    These addicts are on deaths door. I would argue it is better to put them on the fast track to hell than on the slow track, which is what insight does.

    Out health care system should not be so focused on helping people who chose what amounts to a slow form of suicide like addicts do. IT ONLY ENCOURAGES MORE ADDICTION.

  • Realist

    4 years ago

    sad

    Reading the posts of those who can't understand the benefits of insite shows just how misunderstood common sense really is in our world. Those who are easily swayed by spin doctors rhetoric and those who have simply lost their compassion for their fellow human being run rampant and elect those who inflict greater fiscal damage on an already intentionally underfunded health system. Yet another sign of how sick our society is and reinforces the certainty that we are all sheep.

  • reality_check

    4 years ago

    Harm reduction is the key and here is why

    By providing safe means to inject oneself with, we reduce the harm that can be done to oneself and/or others (stealing to get the drug, hospital care, crime, needles on the ground, feeding crimnial organizations,...). I think this is a simple enough concept that a grade 1 cvould get it. If you don't, you must be making money from it (parallel economy) or have failed tu understand basic economics. If there isn't any money to be made from the stuff, they will find the best market to operate in (the one when there is a lack of the substance and where the prices are artificially higher). Alcohol and smoking were legal, and not vereyone was abusing these substances. Given the proper educational campaigns and preventing ad. campaigns, smoking has decreased to record lows in our province. Prohibition only benefits the ones who are selling the stuff illegally and is costing everyone else. I am tired of the right-wing hypocrits who might even benefit from theose backward policies. It is not because you have a huge number of people showing up in a park (Switzerland) that it is more of a concern than if the same people are dispersed all over the city. It just does not look as good. That's all! The point that the conservatyives don't get is that there is no way you can absolutely get rid of this problem, but you can manage it and bring it to lower numbers (like smoking). Beside, their prohibition policies from the last 20 to 30 years have proven disastrous. We have MORE addicts know than before the prohibition. The four pillars' approach is the only way we can effectively manage this problem.

  • NoLeftNutter

    4 years ago

    Torture the numbers....

    Insite’s own statistics show that fewer than 13% of users visit on a daily basis, so it seems like an occasional convenience stop for a small percentage of addicts. Hardly the type of statistical evidence that “proves” the program works…..

  • realisticman

    4 years ago

    The Fourth Pillar

    Quote:
    Enforcement
    Recognizing the need for peace and quiet, public order and safety in the Downtown Eastside and other Vancouver neighbourhoods by targeting organized crime, drug dealing, drug houses, problem businesses involved in the drug trade, and improving coordination with health services and other agencies that link drug users to withdrawal management (detox), treatment, counseling and prevention services.

    It's a bit of dream. Enforcement ain't happening and drugs are not given out at the Vancouver 'clinic' - so the crimes committed to obtain most of the drugs just goes on and on destroying the city.

    The present policy is wrong. Crimes should not be tolerated.

    The core of Vancouver is changing due to this. While densification advocates suggest interesting ways to make the back alleys of Vancouver vibrant instead of sewer-like the new architecture is more pragmatic. Take a walk, better drive, around any alley in central Vancouver and see what any new building's rear looks like and it ain't charming like an alley in Rome or Tokyo, it's more like a fortress. Blank concrete, steel doors and grilles, razor wire.

  • flattax

    4 years ago

    Agreed Enforcement

    Ecodensity...I know people in East Van (EV) who have an alley with a parking pad, but they can't use it or their car gets broken into by some addict. So the streets have hardley any place to park. Crazy. And we see this as acceptabe!!!

    We see Vancouver as the capital of north americal per capita for crimes against property (this even included american cities!) Why? Because of our tolerance and forgiveness of addiction. Insight is an example of why we encourage addiciton. We even tell them it is not thier fault. Society make them addicts. Addiction is a disease.

    And now we are the crime capital of North America. It is time to enforce the law.

  • DPL

    4 years ago

    One hopes the folks who rail

    One hopes the folks who rail on and on about drug users, have no family member or close friend mixed up in the drug system as users. Would their position change if it was their daughter prostituting herself, or their brother breaking into homes to get money for a fix?
    Nancy Reagen used to say " Just say No" did it prove anything ? The US has a very high number of drug users. So I guess nobody was listening to Nancy.

    It is interesting to note that a ex Mayor ( NPA) lobbied hard to get the safe injection site working. People use drugs, so give them a safe place to inject and if they are lucky, they wil ask for help to get off the stuff. If a person shares needles and ends up with HIV or Hep C, the cost to the system is huge. I consider the Insite as good sense.

  • James Burns

    4 years ago

    yeah you torture the numbers alright

    "Insite’s own statistics show that fewer than 13% of users visit on a daily basis..."

    So what? Does Insite have the capacity to handle 100% of users on a daily basis? How many users per day is 13%? You are torturing the numbers by drawing conclusions you don't support. The article above cites numerous studies that demonstrate Insite's efficacy. Far from closing it down, it is clear the service is effective in reducing harm. If anything it should be expanded.

  • verso

    4 years ago

    ...

    Quote:
    And now we are the crime capital of North America. It is time to enforce the law.

    I'd like to see some stats on that, please.

    Yes, a few years ago we topped the list of property crime in North America but I if recall correctly there was some questions around the stats.

    Even if it were the case (and I seriously doubt it is), I think it only bolsters the case against the war on drugs. An approach that has been a complete failure. That approach is why we, like other major cities in North America, are in the mess we are today.

    Some here want to talk about how the harm reduction method is the failure but it hasn't even been tried. We have what, one or two injection sites in all of North America? Give me a break... these things don't change over night, especially when we haven't been serious about implementing them. Our safe injection site is a small piece of the harm reduction model. On its own, it's a half measure... a band aid at best.

    Get drug users stabilized through drug prescriptions (legalization), offer them the opportunity for treatment on demand, get the police focussed on real crime as opposed to hassling users and you'll see property and other crime stats drop.

    One thing we know, the war on drugs and prohibition does not work. We have more than 100 years of evidence here in North America alone that proves it.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    Because we all "know" (just

    Because we all "know" (just look at the posts here) that drug use of a matter of will power (or lack of), then all we need to get people off drugs are threats, not treatments (because treatments merely coddle these spoiled "children"). So we'd rather ramp up law enforecement to scare the bejesus out of drug users. Then they will "see the light", clean themselves up, and get a good job. Or they will move away from our neck of the woods and we won't have to think about them anymore. Either one "works". If law enforcement hasn't done it up to now, it's only because we haven't applied enough of it.....tough love, brother! Tough love is all it takes..........

  • NoLeftNutter

    4 years ago

    Numbers

    James - You can draw almost any conclusions you want from the statistics that Insite reveals including the ones drawn from the many studies in support of the program. That doesn’t mean that the program is effective, useful or offer value for money…

  • G West

    4 years ago

    NLN - Costs and Lives; You must be joking!

    Why is that the value of saving one life - which the centre has clearly done many times since it opened its doors - means so little in terms of keeping the program or improving and enhancing it?

    What price do you propose putting on each human life that would have ended without the program?

    From a purely economic point of view there is no question that finding permanent housing and health and employment solutions for Canada's homeless people would be far less costly than the resources that are being poured into the various modalities - police; health and emergency services; family stress; loss of productivity; prison, parole, social services and the like – all of which are not really addressing these problems.

    The injection site, partial and poorly funded and incomplete as it is, is actually making a priceless difference. One wonders what a difference the $189,000,000. thrown away on air freighting useless Leopard tanks to Afghanistan would have made for Canada’s homeless. Could I request a value for money determination on that little transaction?

    Perhaps some lives and some costs are more valuable than others are.

  • NoLeftNutter

    4 years ago

    Garffy

    Chill out. It’s not about whether you should quantify the value of lives vs. dollars but whether the money that’s been spent, and that many people are advocating spending more of, is the most cost effective solution. A kinder, gentler Tyee indeed…..sheesh.

  • flattax

    4 years ago

    Money wasted???

    Quote:

    One wonders what a difference the $189,000,000. thrown away on air freighting useless Leopard tanks to Afghanistan would have made for Canada’s homeless.

    Response:

    Unwarranted and silly dig at the Conservatives. One wonder what two billion dollars the Federal Liberals have spent on the gun registry would have made for Canada's homeless.

    The war in Afganistan is to protect the western way of life from the Islamists. It is a different subject altogether, G West. Please don't mixt them up.

  • realisticman

    4 years ago

    More Study Needed

    Checking out the writers links and three refer to the same study. What? The title of this piece is starkly misleading and the only evidence I could glean that would suggest recommending continuing this experiment is, "the capacity to prevent new cases of HIV through enhanced prevention messages and interventions at the SIF has great potential." Great. Potential. Hardly convincing though.

    Having worked for an institute that did 'studies' there were many time that all the staff did was look for funding, to do more, you guessed it, studies!

    As for the Harper and conservative snipes, they are unwarranted. It was no better down there under a socialist COPE municipal government, neither was better under an NDP provincial government, nor under a Liberal Federal Government.

    As for the suggestion that if it were a relative or family member in the drug demi-monde, most people know that what's needed is medically monitored cold-turkey treatment, quick. The last thing you want to do is give them money, they spend it on you know what. You also have to get them away from their contemporaries because otherwise they will relapse, quickly.

    The idea that they should be roaming the junkie-hooker-booze soaked disastrous quagmire of the downtown, to commit crimes or prostitute their bodies to finance their self-destructive tragedy is condemning them to a probable continuation of their misery, at the very least. Some people seem to be deluding themselves into imagining that all we need to do is build tons of free residences, give anyone who wants it a 'decent' welfare cheque and freedom to shoot up heavy dope at will and then the downtown east side of Vancouver will become quite a nice little neighbourhood. Pollyanna just OD'd, again.

    I'd say give them free heroin but they have to take it orally. No more needles. Needles illegal. Free smack but you have to drink it under supervision. Might be more attractive than stealing or hooking for cash for the illegal stuff. Crack down hard on the crime. Save our City!

    My view.

  • reality_check

    4 years ago

    re more study NOT needed

    Given the infrastructure (many sites) and free heroin,... for addicts which criminal organizations and how many of them would not find better markets to exploit? I am wondering if they would accept to take it orally though? Is there a big difference? We also need effective education programs for kis (not the ones that glorify the use ...). We need programs designed by professional educators with years of experience with teenagers and, of course, media professionals. Brainwash (intelligently) those kids in believing that you have to be an idiot to try these drugs. We also need educational programs for adults. Given 10 to 20 years, legalize the whole thing. Not to say that we will have 0 addicts, but I would be we would have a lower number than we have now. Oh! I forgot ... help those addicts (once they have kicked the habit) to live productive lives by giving them jobs, and help and more help, because help does not cost that much. Prohibition does not work. Are all people alcoholics? (and considering advertising promoting drinking beer), it is remarkably low. Speaking of beer, are there laws prohibiting advertising of wine or liquor on TV and not beer? I see many ads in paper media for wine and liquor. Why the double talk? (Is it that Molson and co. are ... greasing the palms of a few politicians?) I am not pro-advertising of alcohol period, but I find it strange that there is this incongruity.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    Flattax

    There is no mixup. We are talking about allocation of resources. Why were un-airconditioned tanks sent to Afghanistan in the first place? Was the decision made in the middle of an Ottawa winter? Or by people who just don't give a damn?

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    What price a human life, you ask?

    Here's a rough indication:

    Mary Manning Centre (MMC) serves more than 200 children and families every year.
    http://www.marymanning.com/what_we_do.html

    Amount of government funding needed for Victoria's Mary Manning Centre to avoid having to make child survivors of sexual abuse wait for counselling services: $170,000
    http://home.bcndp.ca/

    So here we have up to 200 children and families needing a mere $170,000 so they may have immediate counselling, instead of waiting a half-year, during which time irreperable psychological damage may set in:
    http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/issues9.html#lon
    Now the trauma of child abuse has been linked to alcohol abuse"
    http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/issues9.html#alc
    which is only a small leap away from general drug abuse:
    http://www.researchmatters.harvard.edu/story.php?article_id=364

    Doing the math, this government plainly figures a human life is not worth $170,000/200 = $850. The fact that an untreated child who suffered from the trauma of sexual abuse and subsequently turned to drugs, might well cost several times this $850, is of course a matter for other departmental budgets, for other MLAs and premiers, in other years.......................

  • Capitalism

    4 years ago

    Mr. G West

    "From a purely economic point of view there is no question that finding permanent housing and health and employment solutions for Canada's homeless people would be far less costly than the resources that are being poured into the various modalities - police; health and emergency services; family stress; loss of productivity; prison, parole, social services and the like – all of which are not really addressing these problems."

    It is impossible to find permanent home, housing, health and employment for the homeless. These problems will always be present as long as we have drugs. Clearly, we aren't getting rid of drugs. The vast majority of the homeless have substance abuse problems.

  • OneWomanArmy

    4 years ago

    Reality Check

    I am a resident of the DTES. I am a former drug user as well. I had the benefit of using Insite where I was taught how to properly inject and use clean needles so I would not get any of the very expensive diseases like Hep C and HIV and infections that need constant attention.

    I have no shame in telling my story. Insite is NECESSARY. I repeat: it's NECESSARY.

    What you haven't focused on is the fact that there are counselor's there during business hours that take people right into detox and guess what? Insite needs MORE counselors because many many people who were using did indeed want to enter detox. In fact, that's how I went into detox, right from Insite.

    Also, did you know how inadequate Vancouver detox services are? Do you know that some people have to wait weeks just to get into detox?

    It's all well and good to make moral arguments about drugs and the *scum* of the area and so on and so forth ad infinitum.

    I'll tell you what this place needs. MORE services like Insite, housing for EVERYONE, and the elimination of state sanctioned poverty since most people in the DTES are on the two types of disability or they are on welfare. That's the hugest slap in the face in a first world nation. It's absolutely disgusting.

    If you treat people with dignity and respect and don't make them live in absolute squalor then you're likely to see a huge change in those people. But as long as we are seen as the morally repugnant element of Vancouver instead of human beings who NEED services like Insite, along with the other REAL PILLARS of a decent life, then nobody will make any progress at all.

    Do you know how many disabled people live in the DTES? Do you know how much a disabled person has to live on in a month? $530.00. A MONTH!

    No disabled person should ever have to live in poverty simply because they are disabled.

    It's terrible and shameful that Canada treats people in the DTES the way it does. The one good thing that happened here was Insite and the second was the NAOMI Project.

    To take them away is a massive step in the wrong direction.

    Closing Insite is the most socially irresponsible thing the government can do.

  • G West

    4 years ago

    Capitalism and Flatax

    I disagree.

    Several cities in both the US and Canada have been and are dealing with these problems much better than we are.

    If you had showed any evidence of being willing to actually read and understand these materials and appreciate why things could be different here, you would have done it long before now.

    I've posted references to them several times before - as you well know.

    There is no point in my continuing to argue with people like you and flatax.

    Neither of you care to learn anything because your minds are full of propaganda.

    Your comments never present any empirical evidence and amount to, at bottom, nothing more than uneducated and ill-informed prejudices.

    You feel the way you do, I’d suggest, because it permits you to behave in a psychologically consistent way according to the philosophy you appear to have adopted as a Weltanshaung.

    There's simply no point in my wasting any more time on either of you. As for wasting money, flatax, if you think our little adventure in Afghanistan has anything to do with saving Canada from the onslaught of roving bands of ‘Islamist Terrorists’ it’s not just the tax system you know nothing about.

    Realisticman:

    I'll try to post a link to the latest report from Four Pillars Society when I can find it in my files. I have the first year end report but I can’t seem to find my copy of year two.

  • reality_check

    4 years ago

    The religious right needs insite ...

    Harper and co. need detox as religion is the opium of the people! And so is money. They need insite. These people need to see reality. They hold extreme views just like the Talibans. They are no better! Why don't they understand that holding these extreme views actually harm people more? I sometimes think that they are themselves in the drug business because I cannot possibly understand how people cannot see that they are harming people more than they are helping. Maybe they all want us to pray .. or prey!

  • realisticman

    4 years ago

    Please tell more

    I am sure that your comments are appreciated, OneWomanArmy. I do. You have eloquence, and I mean this in the 'capability to explain' context, and you have a valuable perspective.

    Can you elaborate on what is right and what is wrong with the DTES scene because you must know that it's not working for many people and it's not good from a general societal point of view. Should crack, smack and booze be included together, or is that moot? Should all services be concentrated in the DTES, or do people need to get away from the 'scene'? Is there a homeless-youth component that is sapping resources for the truly needed?

    Your thoughts would be appreciated. No rush.

  • alive

    4 years ago

    Going to the dogs?

    It is all a matter of priorities!

    People who post here against spending money on helping addicts, would no doubt spend a fortune to keep an aged pet alive for a few more months!

    Are we doing this to hide the addicts in one specific area, or is it done with the hope and aim to help them back to a more normal, productive life?

    One thing is for sure, we need better follow-up facilities: from detox centres to provisions at the emergency rooms, so they have a place to transfer the overdoses to, after they are saved.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    Mr. Capitalism Sir....

    Quote:
    The vast majority of the homeless have substance abuse problems.

    But are they homeless because they have drug problems? Or do they have drug problems because they are homeless........?

  • DPL

    4 years ago

    Mary Manning Centre (MMC)

    Mary Manning Centre (MMC) Didn't get the needed funding so the three staff have to go. Graet work BC Government. The money needed wasn't a real lot when one considers the provicne has sunk about 300 millions on overruns on a convention center. The poor on the street, and the confused, sexually abused children simply don't count in the thinking of this far right gang. One can only wonder why the workers combing the streets for problem youth keep so motivated. They do because they care.

  • dorothy

    4 years ago

    Hurting and how to FIX it

    “But are they homeless because they have drug problems? Or do they have drug problems because they are homeless........?”

    Neither. They fell out of the bottom, because there were one or more big parameters in their life which went bad. We in our society are under enormous pressure to live up to a set of standards, which are largely imposed so that we will spend our resources on consumer goods which will show everybody our achievements and so make us look good, and make the manufaturers and the distributors rich. Acquisition has become the overarching accomplishment. I do not need to go into, what happens when the shining surface falls apart. It only takes a pivotal person getting ill or dying, the loss of a job or some other economicalor human disaster, etc. One weak link in the family chain, drinking may happen, abuse may happen, etc., etc. Our own hard-as-nails premier has that kind of fall from grace in the family sense behind him, so his drinking and driving is just as profound a result of life going wrong somewhere, as the fortunes of the people on skid row. Mr. Campbell has a better sense of self-preservation and doesn’t go all the way to the bottom, plus he has more money to help him deal with the rough spots. People with less in the way of socio-economic fortifications had better either be lucky or strong, to quote Janis Joplin, who didn’t make it to old age either.

    As for the availability of drugs, that is quite another story. I think about that every year, when I get the little package of four Tylenols put into my hand after the flu-shot. I usually end up finding them after some months and throwing them away. This society has a behavioural code, extremely ingrained, of if it hurts, take a pill; or gulp down a drink, see a shrink, go on a cruise, etc., etc. Never deal with the pain of real transition, work through it and come out on the other side a stronger person. Why is this? Because you becoming a stronger person on your own, does not put money into anyone else’s pocket. We are totally built on commoditizing life and everything in it. We buy our children on the other side of the globe; we buy finished roll-out ‘gardens in a blanket’, just add water. we buy, as a wise man said, not health, happiness, and love, but some damn good-looking substitutes.

    here we must break due to restrictions. Butchering my comment and giving you the remainder in next post

  • dorothy

    4 years ago

    Still hurting....

    When we have grown up, or almost grown up, mired in this false, shiny surface kind of thinking, and we fall and hurt some part of ourselves, for which no pill exists, and the truth hits us in the face, that the world is not a friendly place, it is not unfriendly either, it just IS, and it doesn’t really care about us personally, when that big truth stares us in the face, it does not set us free, it makes us scared shitless, and we try to run for cover. We take a pill; or a drink; or a shot of something, anything to help us regain a sense of control and feel-good for the moment. And we may get hooked. There, but for the grace of…

    We do not have any real will to see drug availability gone. Go figure. Like we couldn’t have done it if we really wanted to. Think what else we can do, but not that. Make sense? No. This also is a consumer good, which some people make tremendous money on. After laundering, some of that money finds its way into mainstream economy (read: tax revenue). Some of the importers and distributors are likely well placed and do not even touch the dirty end. As long as the whole thing only costs a few lives outside the immediate families of people who count, we let sleeping dogs lie. Don’t get me wrong. I am not aiming this arrow at any set of people in particular. We are all, with a few shining exceptions, complicit in the complacency of not really giving a damn. Any other questions??

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    dorothy

    Quote:
    Mr. Campbell has a better sense of self-preservation and doesn’t go all the way to the bottom, plus he has more money to help him deal with the rough spots.

    Hmmm.....wonder how many people who have "fallen", would be able to lift themselves back up, were they able to vote themselves more moolah.....?

  • dorothy

    4 years ago

    Yeah, but...

    RickW:

    While I am always happy to see life out there, I had sort of hoped that people would not latch onto the most peripheral aspects of my letter. I would have wished for somebody to respond to my proposed model for 'falling', and how we can try to create fewer 'nobodies' in our community.

    However, it is a good question. I think my answer is, that we would end up in a circular argument, since it is seldom the fragile people who end up in politics and with voting powers of that nature. I believe the sense of self-preservation is a far more powerful influence. I simply meant to illustrate, that we are none of us able to say 'that could never hit me.'
    Even the predators on top of the pyramid are ultimately driven to go in their direction, because they are afraid on some deep level. Truer words were never said than these: we only have one thing to fear: fear itself.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    If you've read anything

    If you've read anything posted by Ed Deak (aka Fiat Lux), he fairly well sums it up in that wealth can only be accumulated by taking it from others (and that includes future generations, or from the environment). Because there are wealthy people, it means there are people born into this society in a deficit position, and not even knowing it. And this has been ging on for so long, that we look at it as "normal" -- adherents of wealth creation (aka "economists") have reams of explanations of how "natural" wealth disparity is. But none of them even come close to the truth of the matter -- and that simple truth is, 'way back at the beginning of things, wealth accumulation began by one guy taking something away from another guy. And we are the end product (to date) of umpteen thousand generations of "wealth" accumulation....

    THAT is what has to be addressed and fixed. Otherwise, every approach is only a bandaid (or as you say it, "peripheral"). One way or another, when GC gave himself a raise, he doomed yet more to the Downtown East Side......

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    PS

    So here I am, walking along the Galloping Goose Trail in Victoria, and come across this historical marker regarding the origins of the water supply to the City of Victoria.
    It seems that, in the beginning of the city's history, settlers simply went out into the backyard and gathered up spring water, and mainly from one major spring source. So one bright soul figures, if he buys up this source, he can make a fortune selling this water. Which he did. But the people who formerly got the water for the simple effort of getting it themselves, complained, to the point where the government told him he couldn't do that anymore. Emminent public domain kind of thing.

    So my question is: how did he acquire this public land (with spring) in the first place? The answer: He didn't! It was an illegal sale, made by those who didn't own it in the first place. He certainly didn't go to the settlers of the area and buy it from them (who all had equal access, hence equal "ownership" of this resource).

    Now imagine if you will, the thousands, the millions, of illegal sales that have been made over the centuries, which no one contested.......or contested futilely.

    Our society has its roots in and continues to practice, the "might is right" axiom. Simply put, those with the biggest stick, get more. You can gussy it up with all the pretty words you want, but the only way you can own anything, is by taking it away from someone else. And if someone takes it away from you, it only shows that you weren't the big dog after all.

  • realisticman

    4 years ago

    Please?

    RickW

    Quote:
    wealth can only be accumulated by taking it from others...THAT is what has to be addressed and fixed.

    If Mr. A plants ten thousand seeds and nurtures the plants and resulting fruits and trades them to Mr. & Mrs. B & C, and then Mr. A becomes wealthy from his fruits, is that bad? What about Mr. C who's very good at building structures for people to live in. He makes a few of them and trades one to Mr. A, the fruit man, then a few more to Mr. A's family members. Mr. C becomes wealthy too.

    Are these people nasty big dogs, Rickie?

  • G West

    4 years ago

    The problem is not the activity

    The problem is:
    (a) Whether or not all the costs are properly recognized and allocated, and;
    (b) Whether or not some segments of a market economy are unfairly taking advantage of public 'goods' for which they do not pay the appropriate cost. This is particularly true for segments of the economy that rely upon 'public' assets like mineral deposits; forests resources on public lands; lakes, rivers and streams; the ocean and its "bounty"; agricultural land and general proximity to certain other public goods and services such as public transportation, bridges, roads and other infrastructure paid for with public funds and managed out of the public purse.

    The role that each and every such thing plays toward the success of an enterprise is a consideration which ought to go into the planning decisions and the taxation policies that determine whether or not your hypothetical operator will be successful or even in business. Currently we have a system which vests all of the advantages in a small group of selfish individuals and fails to charge them the necessary costs of their success.

    Which is, as we've pointed out before, why more and more so-called 'wealth' is becoming concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.

    A good illustration of this is the mining industry. Huge fortunes are made by shareholders and speculators while the public purse is later called upon to correct, remediate and otherwise clean up after corporate entities which - once the ore is high graded - are either long gone or in bankruptcy.

    Extrapolations of this same principle are available in construction, agriculture, manufacturing property speculation and the like.

    The first and most essential way to address these kinds of irresponsible high-grading is through changes to corporation law and the tax system. Such changes are relatively simple and would, in my opinion, be extremely successful in creating a fairer and less conflicted society here in Canada. Of course the oxen being gored would squeal, they did the same at the turn of the 19th Century when the last rot of a golden age was forcibly addressed by public policy and rational (instead of bought and paid for) thought.

    No one should decry a worker, agricultural or otherwise, a FAIR return on his labour.

    The key of course is the word 'fair'.

    However, truth to tell, this is a long way from the nominal subject matter of this story.

  • realisticman

    4 years ago

  • G West

    4 years ago

    More Neil Reynolds stuff

    Tax every dollar, no matter how earned. Why should corporate earings and share dividends, not to mention capital gains, get a special break?

    Stop the special deals for entities that walk away from the messes they create.

    c/f Royal Oak Mines.

    Perhaps you could get Neil Reynolds to do a column on this:

    http://www.abandoned-mines.org/pdfs/royaloaks.pdf

    Corporate taxes need to go up - and if the oligarchs don't like it - let them go to Russia where they'll find a more congenial atmosphere. As a matter of fact, the whole provincial cabinet would probably be a lot more comfortable there. 110 minutes of question period and 63 minutes of silence:
    http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=8edcf12e-43d8-433d-ac11-f7f8b2712451&p=2

    Some leadership!

  • dorothy

    4 years ago

    it's in there somewhere...

    “No one should decry a worker, agricultural or otherwise, a FAIR return on his labour.”

    I think it becomes difficult, when we say this and then try to read some set of moral values into the idea of ‘fair’. This really has nothing to do with fairness, but simply with balance, which is either maintained or not.

    I do not think anyone starts out in life with either a deficit or a surplus in ownership. Ownership is such a strange parameter. If you have even the merest stamp-sized yard in a severely urban setting, then you will know what I mean. You don’t own land, it owns you. You are holding a position of stewardship, which must be re-earned continuously through a steady effort. The ‘real cost’ of things has meaning here…

    You do not have a right of ownership, simply because you exist. You earn it. You can also forfeit it through abuse. In the old tribal setting, where land was held in common ownership, the failure to hold up your end and earn your keep was swiftly dealt with. We got in trouble as soon as there were classes of people, who were not tied to the land and had no contract with it, nothing to lose, so to speak. If things became unpalatable, they could and can simply move. I do not know how we restore the good order of things. There was the idea of housing co-ops some years back, but it was not done right; people still just paid rent to a landlord, the crown, they would never be the owners. We have discarded the idea that voting rights are tied to landownership as ‘discriminatory’. I am not so sure. People who have invested in land and live on it and interact with it have stacked their chips. They are not in the same swift-moving boat as those who can shop around for habitat at a month’s notice, or those who hold licenses to exploit the land and then dump the sad remains back on the rest of us, with all the newly created liabilities.

    I realize I am not being stunningly lucid, but I think that somehow these are fundamental issues, and without addressing them, we will not ever go forward in any profound way. Maybe others can pick this up and manage to express it more clearly than I have. I hope so.

  • G West

    4 years ago

    dorothy

    My remarks were specifically in respect of how public resources are used - but frequently neither evaluated, nor paid for in an appropriate fashion and how that - given current tax structures and attitudes innures to the personal corporatist benefit in a very "unbalanced" way relative to the public good and to the depletion of scarce 'public' resources or the use and abuse of public financed infrastructure.

    I don't have a problem with corporations or business - I do have a problem with those who think that we are and have been improving things by catering to them and not ensuring that they pay the measurable public costs of their enterprises.

    Realisticman - here's the information I promised the other day:
    http://webmail.aol.com/27618/aim/en-us/Mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=1.16658887&folder=Inbox&partId=2&saveAs=viewMediaRelease.htm

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    realistic, man

    Quote:
    If Mr. A plants ten thousand seeds and nurtures the plants and resulting fruits and trades them to Mr. & Mrs. B & C, and then Mr. A becomes wealthy from his fruits, is that bad?

    How did Mr. A get the land to plant the seeds?

    I am saying the only way he could do that is the same way that fellow in Victoria tried to "corner the market" on drinking water -- through an illegal transaction, either directly or indirectly.

  • realisticman

    4 years ago

    So Who Owns the Land, Rick..

    only The State?

    Here's another analogy question then? Mr. X makes beautiful sculptures from found scrap and sells them for big bucks and becomes wealthy. Is this OK or his wealth bad too?

    By the way, West, when you say, as you often do;

    "Tax every dollar, no matter how earned. Why should corporate earnings and share dividends, not to mention capital gains, get a special break?" (I corrected your typo) Sounds to me like an extortion racket but let me ask you; if you want to tax every dollar earned then I suppose that you also support tax-deductions for any dollars lost. By the way, how should we expect corporations to continue to be based within one jurisdiction if the taxes of that jurisdiction are much higher than another? Hollowing out of Canada, etc.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    realistic, man

    Quote:
    Mr. X makes beautiful sculptures from found scrap

    How is the ownership of this "scrap" determined? Again, I refer to the spring water, where all are "owners". Likewise, the "scrap" is of equal interest to all, unless Mr. A can get everyone to "sign off". In other words, no one can actually own anything unless the rest of society gives it's permission -- and even then, how is it determined that this "eminent public domain" may in fact be given away in the first place?

    Can you in fact, name a single instance in which so-called "ownership" does not have it's origins in the "might is right" axiom?

  • G West

    4 years ago

    Tax deductions for dollars lost

    You must be joking! Corporations currently consolidate earnings to write off losses of many subsidiaries created for exactly that purpose. That's extortion in my view and another reason for the necessary reform of corporate governance. As far as current losses are concerned, if you know anything at all about the tax system you must understand that income taxes are on profits NOT LOSSES. No one pays tax on losses now

    I wonder if you're familiar with a little business and investment scam called the small Business investment loss strategy.

    The simple fact is that business generally in this country has had a 30 year holiday and it has become way too expensive for the vast majority of tax payers to continue to finance the party.

    A great many corporate folks who're behind these scams are in jail and a lot more of them should be. Period.

    I can't believe you don't agree with fairness. Some of my clients even play fast and loose with tax withholdings from their employees until year-end every fiscal year as well. They seem to think it's their 'right' - how about that for extortion?

    Corporations that make their money in Canada should pay Canadian tax on those earnings. I could care less if the profits aren't high enough for them and they vacate the country. Good riddance to anyone who cares more about profits than about the good and the development of this country.

    In fact, good riddance generally. If a corporate entity wants our resources - and believe me they do - then that's the price they should have to pay. Instead, as I pointed out earlier, they just high-grade the resources and run off with the profits. When it comes time to clean up the mess or pay for the environmental costs - where do you suppose all your corporate heroes will be? Perhaps we could ask the Queen to give all of them a baronetcy.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    G.West

    However, truth to tell, this is a long way from the nominal subject matter of this story.

    I would disagree here. This IS germane to the story. While there may be many reasons for the down 'n' out to be so, one fundamental reason is the disparity in resource allocation. If this is not addressed in some rational manner, everything we try to accomplish is a mere patina covering the substance of the problem.

    So while we cannot reasonably hope to re-arrange social structure first in our quest to alleviate the plight of the disadvantaged, we must never the less institute policies which take us in that direction, for the "fixes" to take hold.

    But as has been observed, those we rely on to make such changes, do not have an incentive or interest in doing so. More and more of what we see is royalty trodding among the peasants, scattering coins as they go (and the peasants scrabbling, fighting amongst each other, for some small part of this "largesse").

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    G.West

    Quote:
    However, truth to tell, this is a long way from the nominal subject matter of this story.

    I would disagree here. This IS germane to the story. While there may be many reasons for the down 'n' out to be so, one fundamental reason is the disparity in resource allocation. If this is not addressed in some rational manner, everything we try to accomplish is a mere patina covering the substance of the problem.

    So while we cannot reasonably hope to re-arrange social structure first in our quest to alleviate the plight of the disadvantaged, we must never the less institute policies which take us in that direction, for the "fixes" to take hold.

    But as has been observed, those we rely on to make such changes, do not have an incentive or interest in doing so. More and more of what we see is royalty trodding among the peasants, scattering coins as they go (and the peasants scrabbling, fighting amongst each other, for some small part of this "largesse").

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    RM

    Quote:
    So Who Owns the Land, Rick.. only The State?

    The State is incapable of owning the land. It can at best, be a custodian of land and resources. In fact, it is questionable that land and resources can be owned at all, in any sense other than the "might-is-right" one.

    Again I will get back to my spring water analogy. The man who would have cornered the market on drinking water, illegally bought the land from the state (or the Crown if you would), because it was not the state's to sell. And he was forced to relinquish this "purchase" when the citizens realized what he was up to. Eminent Public Domain. This is the basic fallacy of the system we have in place today, especially in the resource sector. Mines and timberlands are bought from the state by individuals, and the state has no right to sell them, even if it bothered to get permission from the people of the society. The reason that a resource is not the public's to give or sell, is because the public cannot poll future generations, who have as great a right to such as the present one.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    RM & GWest

    The only "fair" taxation system is a flat-rate application to gross income. It is no one's business what it takes to make said income, and individuals and businesses are free to pursue whatever means (within the bounds of legality) to do so.

  • realisticman

    4 years ago

    Sing for Your Supper..

    RickW

    Quote:
    Can you in fact, name a single instance in which so-called "ownership" does not have it's origins in the "might is right" axiom?

    What if Mr. X is a songster, a singer that people flock to hear and then becomes wealthy. Is this OK or his wealth bad too? While I do agree with you that illegal land ownership is wrong and should be taken back, I have a problem with your statement, "wealth can only be accumulated by taking it from others". Only?

    As for resources, should they never be touched?

  • G West

    4 years ago

    As I've said before

    I have some difficulties with a flat tax regime. I agree that the rates should be lower and generally there should be fewer income levels; however, given the fact that I'll accede to your other point - concerning how we've got to the current inequitable state and that that is a result of an elitist system designed to protect the rich and enhance their power at the expense of the majority (and the fall out of which is endemic poverty and problems for children, families and a lack of suitable and affordable housing) I think we may have to be a little harder on corporations and shareholders for a while. They’ve done little enough lately to earn anything but opprobrium anyway. By the way, you should both stop over at Mary’s blog – the decision is in from Courtroom 54 and it is very bad news for the Campbell Liberals.

    They have had it their own way for too long. It's time for another innings.

  • G West

    4 years ago

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    RM

    Quote:
    Never say never, for if you live long enough, chances are you will not be able to abide by its restrictions. Never is a long, undependable time, and life is too full of rich possibilities to have restrictions placed upon it.

    - Gloria Swanson

    But if a resource (which is many different things to many different people) is to be "touched", it must necessarily be by concensus - and if it must be consumed, extirpated as it were, then consideration must be given as to whether this will impoverish the coming generations, and suitable provision set aside for this.

    The classic "argument" against this notion is that, were these conditions to be implemented, "nothing would ever get done". Translated into someting rational, it means, "Who we gonna screw, for our own comfort?" And there is that ol' "might is right" thing at work again.........

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    G West

    The corporation is an abomination, the sole purpose of which is to shunt responsibility away from the owners - the ultimate in "externalizing costs"
    http://www.friedkitten.com/archive/2005/04/externalizing_c.html
    The only acceptable business association would be the co-operative, which is in fact what marriage is, with the responsibilities assumed by all the members thereof.

    The Corporation is (again) another incarnation of "might is right"........

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    Mary's blog

    Oh my! I can hear the spin doctors revving up in the Liberal machine. Will it be the NDP's fault (0nce again), ya think?

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    Back to Safe Injection.......?

    Implement the Four Pillars:
    http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/fourpillars/
    and scrap the Gateway Project, if there are funds required. The only thing Gateway is good for is putting money in contractors' pockets (or is it Cayman bank accounts?)
    4 Pillars would be a good start. And make it so it can no longer be a political football, subject to the whims of deluded zealots. Addictions of all kinds are endemic to this society. For every "winner", there are many "losers" (it's only a matter of degree). And as such, there should be permanent services to treat them (us). You wanna get rid of the service, then get rid of the problem....

  • zalm

    4 years ago

    Well argued...

    ...RickW. Very coherent.

  • zalm

    4 years ago

    R/man

    You may want to do a little of your own reading instead of having RickW hand you your brains on a platter all the time. Every question you've asked so far has been covered in the initial arguments made up to two centuries ago by Utilitarians such as Bentham and Mill, and more recently by Libertarians seeking to justify their arguments using Utilitarianism.

    Ultimately, all analogies fail, but your examples to RickW show that some fail more quickly than others.

    There are indeed reasons to assume the private use equals ownership of property on some occasions, but corporate evasion of responsibility, corporate ownership (by a non-person, no matter what the courts may say) and corporate tax rates are none of these. They're just lunacy promulgated by a select group of bandits who have learned to work the system, and have learned to keep the rest of the world quiet by throwing a few bones at us every quarter and calling it a "dividend".

  • zalm

    4 years ago

    Dorothy

    Sweetly said. Let's hear more.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    Thanks, Zalm

    I just want to say to G. West that "picking" on the corporations will not achieve the desired goals. Rather, "decommission" the body corporate, so that it is no longer recognized as an entity, separate from the shareholders. It ultimately is an exercise in "the buck stops here", rather than "there", and not "here".....

    http://www.answers.com/corporation

    Quote:
    The most important aspect of a corporation is limited liability. That is, shareholders have the right to participate in the profits, through dividends and/or the appreciation of stock, but are not held personally liable for the company's debts.

    Perhaps (just maybe), when people are required to assume a responsibility (Harper's "accountability"?), we'll be less likely to hold our neighbours in disdain...........more apt to recognize John Donne's "No man is an Island, entire of it self; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main."

  • G West

    4 years ago

    RickW

    Don't think for a moment I disagree with you.

    But, I think we have a chance at getting real tax reform - which would help a lot and almost no chance of deep-sixing corporations entirely without a violent revolution.

    These guys and gals - (the top 5 - 8 % of the plutocrats who run things) aren't going to give up without spilling blood. And a lot of that blood is going to be flowing from the veins of the 92 - 95 percent of the people who do all the work now.

    I just want to start by chipping away slowly at the 'shaky credibility' of a system that no longer has any useful purpose in terms of the good of the whole population. I think we could sell real tax reform to a majority of Canadians in a democratic forum. I don't think we could convince a majority that they should support doing away with corporations altogether.

    At least not yet. I see someone like Realisticman as a guy who's unsure of where he stands. He still believes in such myths as the benefits of foreign investment and the value of corporate leadership.

    In the end, it is a question of working toward the possible and not letting the good and the perfect get into a big fight. My first step is tax reform – that’s all.

  • RickW

    4 years ago

    My first step is tax reform – that’s all.

    Difficult enough in itself, considering that, for those we rely on to do the reforming, it would be like requiring them to cut off their own foot.

    General rule of thumb: When legislators legislate, they do so for others, and not for themselves.....

    But this is getting away from the immediate topic. Care to discuss this in another venue?

    As regards the Safe Injection Site, we are (again) asking those who have never "been there" for the alms it takes to make such programs effective. Considering that Canada has consistently reneged on its promise to provide 1 or 2 percentiles of its GDP to help the developing world, how can we expect our current crop of "leaders" to even take notice of our own disadvantaged?

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