Strange

The odd couple? Yes. Strange bedfellows? Hardly. Comrades in arms? Definitely.

The left wing with guts! Bravo!

Kudos to Jack Leyton.

Winston Churchill once said something that applies to why we are in Afganistan: "It is better to fight a war in your neighbours garden than on your own doorstep."

They brought the war to us...so let's bring it back to them in spades...we fight the islamists outside canada, root them out, for if we retreat, they will come here to fight us.

It was a silly vote anyway.

It was a silly vote anyway. Glad the Libs didn't feel we had taken too many casualties at Falaise Gap and decided to introduce a motion telling our allies that First Canadian Army would cease operations and go home in September 1944 or something.

I'm glad the NDP voted with the COns on this issue but its too bad they voted for the wrong reasons. They should have voted to stay as long as the Afghans want us.

more useless amateur theatricals

the floor of the house of commons accomplishes less every day.

the decision to stay or go is a 'foreign affairs matter' and that puts it on the PM's desk.

Like it or lump it, that is the way things are done in Canada.

The commons can jump-up and down or Layton can paint himself black and orange and it still will not change the fact that, in Canada, the PMO's office decides foreign military action, and can do it while thumbing its nose at the commons (like a certain cretin we used to have as PM).

p.s. Warnica should 'senior edit' a bit closer as a whole paragraph has been duplicated.

Why are we there?

Layton can paint himself black and orange and it still will not change the fact that, in Canada, the PMO's office decides foreign military action

hey Murdock, It was liberal motion!

If Layton and the NDP had made a motion it would have been to withdraw immediately, and then it would have been the Liberals problem to vote against that motion.

At least the NDP has a position on this issue! and my guess is that most Canadians wish we never had engaged in the first place!

By now it is clear that the motives for starting that war was based on flawed information to put it mildly.

There is nothing wrong with showing our neighbours that in our opinion they made a grave mistake and that we no longer wish to support it!

alive, I don't care who put this nonsense forward!

So what, Dion can sprout wings and try to fly to the moon! It still will not change whom has the POWER to decide the fate of the military in foreign adventure.

This provision alone takes Canada away from the club of actual democratic nations.

At least the UK has the ability to remove their PM, without a money bill being involved, where military actions are concerned.

Don't think so? What happened to Chamberlain?

Why are we there?

~ PM (Darth) Cretien(ous) on Oct 7, 2001

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1025062429054_20471629

and

The deployment is currently set to last six months, but that period could be extended if the anti-terror campaign lasts longer, Chief of National Defence Staff General Ray Henault said.

both on October 8, 2001.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1025062497948_20471697

just in case you have forgotten.

and here is a long view rewind of it all...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050804/afghanistan_timeline_050804/20060807/

"flat world" believer

"flat world" believer flattax wrote:
"They brought the war to us...so let's bring it back to them in spades...we fight the islamists outside canada, root them out, for if we retreat, they will come here to fight us."

Funny, I don't recall any one from Afghanistan attacking Canada. As I recall, a bunch of Saudis attacked the U.S., and so we helped the U.S. restore the opium trade in Afghanistan, so the CIA would have a secret budget for inventing weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, so that the U.S. could move in and control the Iraq oil trade, which was soon going to be priced in Euros, which would have sent the U.S. dollar plummeting, which means Canadians could no longer buy cheap plastic crap from China, funded by little green I.O.U.s that the U.S. prints more of whenever they have an economic crisis.

Why didn't we just help the U.S. attack Saudi Arabia? Would have been much simpler, and would have made your statement almost true, instead of ridiculously false.

"they will come here to fight us."

You've got a typo there, flat world. I think you meant, "They will come here to fight U.S."

Sorry, NDP, you make no sense here!

"The Liberal motion, introduced last week by defence critic Denis Coderre, called on the government to inform NATO that Canada will end its combat mission in Southern Afghanistan no later than February 2009."

The key to this motion is "no later." If you are indeed interested in pulling out of this mission as soon as possible, you had to vote for this motion. I suggest that Layton is playing politics, doesn't want to fight an election on Afghanistan, and wants to extend the stay of the Conservative government until his polling numbers go up. Another reason for me to vote for the Liberals and not the NDP.

History lessons?

murdock
Thanks for the history lesson; the problem with history is that it should not be written as it happens!

Whatever reaction various statesmen took immediately after 9/11 must be looked at in the light of what really happened then, not what the media tried to make us believe happened!

All of us were suckered in at the moment to believe the crap that Bush and company spread, but after a while we realized that for instance those weapons of mass destruction were only a figment of the spindoctors imagination!

In light of that we have every right to tell US to go fight their own wars!

About the motion that NDP helped defeate: it was obviously a motion for the purpose of making a statement as the liberals saw fit, and NDP has their right to decide that if a motion should be passed it should be something they believe in!

vacillation

That's what this quotation really means.

Harper want to keep his "options" open, meaning that, if the Democrats in the U.S. manage to force a timetable on the government for Iraqi withdrawl, then Harper will perceive this as the clarion call to shout "Job well done!" Then he will pull the boys from Afghanistan (on his own "initiative").

Layton's lacks conviction...

Jack Layton is such a lier. The NDP don't have great polling numbers and therefore can't risk an election. Claiming that 2009 wasn't good enough is just a cop-out to dodge a possible election call.

At least 2009 was a set date, clearly Layton doesn't honestly think that we're getting out any sooner. All he did was prove his lust for power is above his message. EXTREMELY dissapointed in Him.

t

Perhaps there is a larger picture at work here

It just could be that the NDP sees no purpose in pulling the government down over an issue as volatile as our troops in Afghnistan (which incidentally serves the very real Harper purpose of diverting public attention away from the more insidious goings on both his government and the Liberals), because the Afghan issue is one that can be decided in a moment with another change of government -- Whereas, the machinations taking place behind closed doors on NAU, SPP, et al, present a far more serious and damaging effect to Canada as a whole.
____________________________________

"The Standing Committee on International Trade will hold the first ever hearings on the so-called "Security and Prosperity Partnership" (SPP) of North America thanks to the efforts of NDP International Trade Critic Peter Julian"

"The NDP has been the only party in Canada’s Parliament to oppose the deep integration agenda and to propose an ethical and fair trade model."
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070425113417602

Malcolm...

The motion that the NDP helped defeat wasn’t a confidence motion. Even if they had voted with the Liberals and Bloc, it would not have forced an election. I don’t think Jack’s concern was that his actions would force them to the polls.

Layton

Why shouldn't Layton do what is in the best interests of the NDP?

Liberals too often think that what's in their best interests is, by extension, in the best interests of the country.

I for one am happy that Layton doesn't move in lock-step with the Liberals. Especially since the Chretien and Martin Liberal gov'ts were, for all intents and purposes, Conservative gov'ts.

What are we waiting for?

The real question should be: do you want your sons home now in an orderly fashion,

or later on, in a pine box?

We can stay there for ages and never make an impact,
or admit we made a mistake and go home, it is that simple!

So NDP has the right answer, stop NOW!

alive

Speak for yourself, I was not concerned for the actions on that day...I was immediately thinking of the 'duration' and long-term effects that it would have.

Moreover, I was shocked when the mushroom cloud appeared as the building 'collapsed' and wondered aloud to my spouse and others I was talking to on the phone at the time..."where is the superstructure?"

I was not suckered in the tiniest bit, and made damn sure to call all my still serving military friends to point out facts as I saw them. Those whom could 'opt out' from further participation in the Op Appolo madness did.

So NDP has the right answer, stop NOW?

alive,

While this is a laudible goal, it is not the 'total answer'.

Stopping the military actions:
Let's say for argument's sake that tonight the PM has an epiphany and decides to quit the Afghanistan debacle.

Solutions:
The best is to SECRETLY (and I mean super-cosmic-NOTAL-secret) arrange the heavy-airlift all at once to arrive at just after sunset and depart before dawn for all troops and possible equipments. Any hint that the operation is known of and the safest course would be to stand-down as the potential for death, on a massive scale, is very high if the opponents on the ground are aware that these troops will be vulnerable during take-off.

Next, a 'phased withdrawl' is another option. This one is trickier;
1) There must be some public knowledge of the withdrawl, which means that the allied troops in the region will also know of the plan ... and the enemy.
2) The 'public' must be prepared for the actions, something important if the PM has any plans to get re-elected because of the way our 'democracy' works. This means really readying the public for massive spending increases, not for the land forces, but the needed air-support, since the departing heavy-airlift will now need ground attack aircraft to supress the enemy fire coming at the departing heavy airlift. Right now in Canada we are in no way ready for this kind of spending increase, not to mention the 6-18 months of intensive training that the aircrews would need.

Stop everything going on in Afghanistan?
What about the PRT's? So are you saying that the reconstruction or 'peaceable' elements that are being done in the country should also leave?

Stop everything? So that means backing out from NATO commitments to the 2009 timetable? Remember that we danced in that musical chair room and got the 'command' as the music stopped and all the other NATO generals were sitting down, so we 'volunteered', remember?

The way the NDP would do it, we end up having to 'jam out' on a lot of NATO and UN commitments. Making our word and value on the international stage worth far less than it is today.

Whom would ever trust us to live up to any comitment after behaving like that?

Thank you, NDP. Now we

Thank you, NDP. Now we won't have to worry about anything at all being done about Afghanistan. You folks show real leadership in putting your concern for Canadians above your concerns about being re-elected in a future federal election.

Thanks for ensuring the Tories will stay in power indefinitely.

You're welcome

We do indeed have higher principles than the Liberals who got us into Afghanistan and now have declared themselves the only party that will get us out.

Say what?

murdock, you make it sound like its going to look like the last helicopter out of Saigon.

The Taleban can't even stop the coming and going of Tim Horton's franchises let alone wipe out the Cdn army as they leave.

I bet the Cdn army could leave any time they wanted to without a single casualty due to enemy fire and the Taleban would be thrilled as they eventually popped their heads up and realized there was no one stopping them from going back to killing unarmed civilians.

Josephine

Afghan history synopsis:
http://www.afghan-web.com/history/chron/index4.html

The Persian empire was plagued by constant bitter and bloody tribal revolts from Afghans living in Arachosia (Kandahar, and Quetta)

Constant revolts plague Alexander

Kushan empire fragments into petty dynasties.

Invasion of the White Huns. They destroy the Buddhist culture, and leave most of the country in ruins.

Persians reassert control over all of what is now Afghanistan.
Revolts by various Afghan tribes.

Afghanistan becomes the center of Islamic power and civilization

Ghorid leaders from central Afghanistan capture and burn Ghazni, then move on to conquer India.

Invasion of Afghanistan by Genghis Khan
Destruction of Irrigation systems by Genghis Khan, which turned fertile soil into permanent deserts.

Descendants of earlier Ghorid rulers reassert control over Afghanistan.

Babur, founder of the Moghul dynasty takes control of Kabul
Bayazid Roshan (Afghan intellectual) revolts against the power of the Moghul government
Khushhal Khan Khattak (Afghan warrior-poet) initiates a national uprising against the foreign Moghul government

Afghans start to lose control of Persia.

Nadir Shah (head of Persia) occupies southwest Afghanistan, and southeast Persia.
Nadir Shah is assassinated, and the Afghans rise once again. Afghans, under the leadership of Ahmad Shah Abdali retake Kandahar, and establish modern Afghanistan.

It became the greatest Muslim empire in the second half of the 18th century.

Capital of Afghanistan transferred from Kandahar to Kabul because of tribal opposition.
Constant internal revolts

Rule of Zaman Shah
Constant internal revolts
(1795) Persians invade Khurasan (province)

Rule of Mahmood
Constant internal revolts

Rule of Shah Shujah
(1805) Persian attack on Herat fails.
Internal fighting

Mahmood returns to the throne.
War with Persia--indecisive victory
Internal fighting

Sons of Timur Shah struggle for the throne--Civil War--anarchy--

Afghanistan Synopsis, continued:

Dost Mohammad Khan is proclaimed as Amir al-mu' minin (commander of the faithful). He was well on the road toward reunifying the whole of Afghanistan when the British, in collaboration with an ex-king (Shah Shuja), invade Afghanistan.
First Anglo-Afghan War
In January 1842, out of 16,500 soldiers (and 12,000 dependents) only one survivor, of mixed British-Indian garrison, reaches the fort in Jalalabad, on a stumbling pony.

After the annihilation of British troops, Afghanistan once again becomes independent

Dost Mohammad Khan signs a peace treaty with India.

British take Baluchistan, and Afghanistan becomes completely landlocked.

(1865)--Russia takes Bukhara, Tashkent, and Samarkand
Russia promises to respect Afghanistan's territorial integrity.

Start of second Anglo-Afghan War
The British invade and the Afghans quickly put up a strong resistance.

July 1880, Afghan woman named Malalai carries the Afghan flag forward after the soldiers carrying the flag were killed by the British. She becomes a heroine for her show of courage and valour.

Russian forces seize the Panjdeh Oasis
Russians promised to honor Afghan territorial integrity in the future.

1921-- Third Anglo-Afghan war
Once again, the British are defeated, and Afghanistan gains full control of her foreign affairs.

Britain withdraws from India. Pakistan is carved out of Indian and Afghan lands.
Pashtuns in Pashtunistan (Occupied Afghan Land) proclaim an independent Pashtunistan, but their proclamation goes unacknowledged by the world community.

1978 -- Soviet Union (Russia) invade in December.
Mujahideen make great gains, defeat of Soviets eminent.

The United States and UK working with the forces of the United Front (UNIFSA) launch air strikes against the Taliban.

Likely, if we just treat Afghanis as ordinary people, things would end up for the better........eventually.

Perhaps if Iraqis were Actually Consulted...?

http://www.nytimes.com:80/2007/04/29/world/middleeast/29reconstruct.html?ex=1178510400&en=32ed4c7c25dec314&ei=5070&emc=eta1

stinger 2, stinger 3 ...

I've got a bet breaker for thee!

not if they advertise the departure date and location!

have you ever even heard of a Stinger?

Do you know how many are out there?

The successive Republican administrations wanted to keep 'war' away, so they thought to supply the means (like FDR did) and in the process make a bundle.

The only problem is how many weapons they 'lent' out. The CIA, I'm certain has no idea how many were supplied, less so of how many were fired and an even fuzzier idea of how many remain.

The scary part is the number of Stinger-3's that are likely still around and serviceable! There is still no defence against these man portable infra-red homing surface-to-air missiles!

NONE AT ALL!

More than that, Pakistan is listed as a 'user' nation of these weapon systems. Do you really think that they are not clever enough to 'reverse-engineer' their own version?

If there is more than a 24 hour warning of the departure and the volume of vulnerable air traffic you can count on the Stingers being there and in greater numbers than anyone thought possible.

Oh and regarding your "go anytime they like" idea...whom will be doing the heavy airlift?

Rick W's info ref Afghanistan...

Excellent points Rick W,

I note that the words: revolt, revolutions, unrest, invasion and civil war are common threads in the 3000 years of history.

This is a common theme for 'march' regions and it is something that our military has absolutely no understanding of nor experience with. Neither did the Soviets.

We are doing the same things that the Soviets did, in almost the same order and timings.

I expect the same results.

To do otherwise is the definition of madness.

another Layton error

Another brutal, self-defeating error by the NDP, who are alienating their base by the busload by propping up Harper.
They are more concerned with trying to distinguish themselves from the Liberals than with really trying to stop the madness in Afghanistan.

NotaColony.ca, Couldn't

NotaColony.ca,

Couldn't agree more.

NDP has lost its way.

LIBERAL SHILLS

kuma, josephine, NotaColony, malcolm and others are such obvious Liberal party employees, sending in their messages falsely claiming that the NDP and Layton are to blame for every Tory error, that it first gets tiresome and then gets funny.

Keep it up, you losers! With Dion at the top of the ticket and Justin at the bottom, you're going nowhere.

what utter nonsense

"They brought the war to us...so let's bring it back to them in spades." Have I missed something?? When did the folks from Afghanistan attack Canada? What possible reason do we have for being involved in Afghanistan? They have done nothing to us. This is just another case of the boot licking Liberals and Conservatives sucking up to the US and involving our armed services personnel in an absolutely unwinnable conflict. I suspect that the Liberals and Conservatives lack the basic math skills of a grade one student. Just figure the ratio of allied soldiers to citizens of Germany in 1945. Now do the same for Afghanistan. Result: unwinnable. Not that winning is everything, but if you're into results it ain't gonna happen. We have no business being there, it is a colossal waste of money and the Harper Conservatives have proven once again that they have the collective wisdom and brain power of a gnat. Let's see the opposition put forward a motion calling for immediate withdrawal from both Afghanistan and NATO.